The Italy China connection to Corona Virus

SpaceNut · 2020-03-11 17:37:51

Many nations have and are being hit hard and Italy is one where we have member Quaoar.
Here is a copy of posts from another location.

Quaoar wrote:

Here in Rome I'm under house arrest (as all Italians) and I'm writing my sf novels waiting for the end of the epidemic
I sincerely hope your country will never experience the hell in which we are living now.

GW Johnson wrote:

Over here in the US, the spread of this covid-19 crap is just starting. We are behind the curve in both stores of supplies, and in current isolation plans, despite the lies you hear from the White House. It is unlikely we will avoid anything. It just hasn't destroyed us yet.

Quaoar wrote:

I still hope you avoid it. Today we lost 197 people.

GW Johnson wrote:

197. Damn. Pandemics are hell, even at a low effective death rate. The Black Death 600 years ago was far worse. But still .....

Quaoar wrote:

197 people is only a one day toll. From the beginning of the epidemic we lost 827 people and still have 10590 infected people. It is not just like a flu is just like a war.

This has become a world problem and we need to join together to solve it and soon.

louis · 2020-03-11 20:06:45

I don't think there's any doubt there's a worldwide effort to deal with this. But people are divided on how best to deal with it. Both Singapore and South Korea, who have done well in coping with it, are not exactly representative of countries. One a tiny island nation and one a country with just one border (with a v. unfriendly brother nation, so hardly any interaction there).

SpaceNut wrote:

Many nations have and are being hit hard and Italy is one where we have member Quaoar.
Here is a copy of posts from another location.
Quaoar wrote:
Here in Rome I'm under house arrest (as all Italians) and I'm writing my sf novels waiting for the end of the epidemic
I sincerely hope your country will never experience the hell in which we are living now.
GW Johnson wrote:
Over here in the US, the spread of this covid-19 crap is just starting. We are behind the curve in both stores of supplies, and in current isolation plans, despite the lies you hear from the White House. It is unlikely we will avoid anything. It just hasn't destroyed us yet.
Quaoar wrote:
I still hope you avoid it. Today we lost 197 people.
GW Johnson wrote:
197. Damn. Pandemics are hell, even at a low effective death rate. The Black Death 600 years ago was far worse. But still .....
Quaoar wrote:
197 people is only a one day toll. From the beginning of the epidemic we lost 827 people and still have 10590 infected people. It is not just like a flu is just like a war.
This has become a world problem and we need to join together to solve it and soon.

louis · 2020-03-13 06:28:05

The most important figure at this stage is death per million of population, because we can be sure that the virus is now circulating in virtually all countries. Death per number of "cases" is varying a lot depending on how good countries are at testing.

Although the mainstream media are not featuring this, the reason northern Italy was hit so bad is because they have about 100,000 semi-legal Chinese migrants (working under the gang system) in the leather factories, primarily. A large proportion are from the Wuhan district and there was constant air traffic of people between Wuhan and Northern Italy.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-13 12:21:43

For Louis re #83

Thank you for this background information on the presence of 100,000 migrants from China.

Edit#1: The article at the link below reports on damage to lungs caused by the virus:
https://nypost.com/2020/03/13/coronavir … -function/

It would appear that, unlike the flu, this virus may cause permanent damage.

Edit#2: Local announcement:

The world is experiencing an unprecedented health crisis threatening our citizens. Early action in stemming the spread of the coronavirus, or COVID-19, is critical. In response to Gov. --- orders closing all K-12 schools and prohibiting mass gatherings, All library locations will close effective at 6 p.m. today, Friday, March 13 and remain closed through at least April 6.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-03-13 14:10:30)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-14 17:33:58

reposts:

kbd512 wrote:

GW,
There's no avoiding death. It's only a matter of time. Anyone who thinks they're going to "live forever" is delusional to the point of requiring psychiatric treatment. I wish we had a magic wand to make this all go away, but we don't have one of those. What we can do is provide clear and concise instructions to the public in a calm manner and put mortality numbers into perspective by comparing them to other similar pathogens and other leading causes of death. An actual shooting war makes the worst of these pandemics seem like a rash of drunk driving by way of comparison.
Define "miscreant".
Is it someone who does something like price gouging on sales of masks?
Is it someone who purchases every roll of toilet paper in the store instead of the 1 package they need to last them the next 6 months?
What about all those idiots who went out and bought a firearm, having never owned one in their life and having zero training on how to use one?
How about someone from the CDC who goes on TV and incites mass hysteria?
Yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater is a crime, so why isn't inciting mass hysteria or participating in any way in destructive mob-like behavior?
I'm just tired of all the irrational idiocy on public display, largely driven by mass media hysterics. You understand that, too, right? After watching the media incessantly make fun of those "doomsday prepper" nutters, I then get to watch all those "rational" and "learned" people acting EXACTLY like those clowns- over a good bit of nothing. Anyway, I'm REALLY tired of all the nonsense from nonsensical people. I want to see some of those rational and educated adults act the part every so often, else stop demanding that I treat them as if they're someone they're most definitely not.
Getting back on topic here, how rational is it to think that Starship Super Heavy is that last word in launch efficiency?

GW Johnson wrote:

Kbd512:
"Miscreant" is every one of those things you mentioned.
It also includes an example you didn't mention: a President and his minions who lie about how serious an epidemic is, until they get their noses rubbed in it by a stock market crash that ends the "great economy" they wanted to get re-elected with.
They all need to be held accountable.
GW

Mark Friedenbach wrote:

kbd512, don't be a death apologist.
There is no reason anyone should die. Every lost life is a tragedy that could have been prevented.
You can't accomplish the "impossible" until you merely try.

Quaoar · 2020-03-15 08:50:24

SpaceNut wrote:

Nations of change for Italy and now Spain will impose partial coronavirus lockdown - PM
This is a surprise Internet companies won't disconnect people for unpaid bills for 60 days, FCC says

Adjournment from Rome, Italy

Today we have reached 1441 causalities.
As a SF writer, it seems to me to live in a dystopic SF novel.
We are in the 7th day of lock down. When we go out to buy food, we see desert streets, but there are long lines of people in front of supermarkets. By the moment, there is not food shortage, but, to prevent contagion, only a limited number of persons are allowed to entry in the supermarkets, and this is the reason of the long lines.

My cousin, who as a farmer and a food producer is not forced to stay at home, told me that is very difficult for him to find fertilizers and spare parts for tractors, because there are very few corries. So if this situation lasts for months it will likely cause disruption in the food production chain and consequentially food shortage.

By the moment, the viral tsunami has not still hit the southern and central Italy at full power, but in northern Italy hospitals are near the breaking point: ICU beds are almost full and very soon doctors will have to choose which patient to care and which to not. And this happens in Lombardy, which has one of the best healthcare system of Europe. I shudder to think what may happen in the south, where hospital are always in critical condition, even in good times.

Italy is not equipped for mass surveillance, so control is not very tight and much is left to the responsibility and self-discipline of the people. I feel this is working - at least in Rome - but this is only my impression and the numbers will soon reveal the truth either way.

Greetings for all of you, my friends of Newmars,
I'll keep you posted

P.S. at 8 PM the death toll has risen to 1809 with 368 people passed today.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-15 13:17:42)

louis · 2020-03-15 16:16:59

Hi Quaoar,

A dystopic SF novel? A good description. Just like 9-11 was a badly scripted disaster movie, this is a badly scripted SF novel using that tired old plague theme! lol

Your pain is felt here. We have not yet entered lockdown in the UK but are watching developments on mainland Europe with gathering unease.

Is your media mentioning that the real reason for Italy being hit so bad is that you have so many Chinese migrant workers in the country, especially in North Italy, and that many of them came from the Wuhan district? I have seen the number given as about 100,000. Their status seems unclear and they work under the corrupt gang system. These facts are definitely being hidden in the UK media.

Quaoar wrote:

SpaceNut wrote:
Nations of change for Italy and now Spain will impose partial coronavirus lockdown - PM
This is a surprise Internet companies won't disconnect people for unpaid bills for 60 days, FCC says
Adjournment from Rome, Italy
Today we have reached 1441 causalities.
As a SF writer, it seems to me to live in a dystopic SF novel.
We are in the 7th day of lock down. When we go out to buy food, we see desert streets, but there are long lines of people in front of supermarkets. By the moment, there is not food shortage, but, to prevent contagion, only a limited number of persons are allowed to entry in the supermarkets, and this is the reason of the long lines.
My cousin, who as a farmer and a food producer is not forced to stay at home, told me that is very difficult for him to find fertilizers and spare parts for tractors, because there are very few corries. So if this situation lasts for months it will likely cause disruption in the food production chain and consequentially food shortage.

By the moment, the viral tsunami has not still hit the southern and central Italy at full power, but in northern Italy hospitals are near the breaking point: ICU beds are almost full and very soon doctors will have to choose which patient to care and which to not. And this happens in Lombardy, which has one of the best healthcare system of Europe. I shudder to think what may happen in the south, where hospital are always in critical condition, even in good times.
Italy is not equipped for mass surveillance, so control is not very tight and much is left to the responsibility and self-discipline of the people. I feel this is working - at least in Rome - but this is only my impression and the numbers will soon reveal the truth either way.
Greetings for all of you, my friends of Newmars,
I'll keep you posted
P.S. at 8 PM the death toll has risen to 1809 with 368 people passed today.

Quaoar · 2020-03-15 18:04:16

louis wrote:

Hi Quaoar,
A dystopic SF novel? A good description. Just like 9-11 was a badly scripted disaster movie, this is a badly scripted SF novel using that tired old plague theme! lol
Your pain is felt here. We have not yet entered lockdown in the UK but are watching developments on mainland Europe with gathering unease.
Is your media mentioning that the real reason for Italy being hit so bad is that you have so many Chinese migrant workers in the country, especially in North Italy, and that many of them came from the Wuhan district? I have seen the number given as about 100,000. Their status seems unclear and they work under the corrupt gang system. These facts are definitely being hidden in the UK media.

The first case were a couple of elderly Chinese tourists from Wuhan, who developed cough while in Rome on 21 January, but they were suddenly hospitalized, and all the people in their tour group were quarantined, so this virus lineage was contained (after a two-month-and-an-half battle, the two tourists survived and now they are OK).

The 3rd case was an Italian repatriated from Wuhan who was tested positive on 6 February and quarantined.

In Lombardy, the first case was a 38-year-old Italian man named Mattia, who went to a local first aid for a strong cough on 14 February. There, he spent many hours in the waiting room with many people before being dismissed without testing (at the time only people who had come from China had to be tested, according to the guideline). Then he developed a pneumonia and went again to the first aid. This time the doctor bent the protocol and tested him anyway. Mattia was found positive, hospitalized and put in a ICU, but in the meantime he had infected many people, who in turn spread the virus, causing the disaster. Mattia survived after being ventilated for almost a month, but it was not possible to find who infected him.

Lombardy, like every part of Italy, is full of Chinese-Italians and Chinese immigrant, but there is no evidence that the virus has come from them. Anyway a Chinese who lives in Italy has almost the same probability to get the virus and transmit it of every other Italian.

In my neighborhood there are many Chinese restaurant and shop-owners, who are very nice persons. During this ordeal, they showed a very strong self-discipline in obeying the orders of sanitary authority and very soon they locked themselves at home, better than many Italians, who though it's just like a flu.
In January, before the outbreak of the disease in Italy, I asked "Is it really so bad?" to the Chinese owner of a restaurant I used to eat before the lock down.
"You can not even imagine how bad it is" was her answer, and unfortunately she was right.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-15 18:21:51)

louis · 2020-03-15 18:43:38

I think you are employing "MSM Think", trying to find a 101 reasons why the Chinese migrant labour connection doesn't explain the outbreak in Lombardy . No one is accusing the Chinese population of being unsanitary and the problem is unlikely to lie with Chinese restaurant owners in your area who probably return to China infrequently. The problem lies with poorly regulated Chinese gang labourers who are being flown in and out of the region as required.

Look at the reality. Lombardy has one of the highest concentrations of Chinese migrant labour in Europe. Much of it is of a dubious legal status. The workers are working to a gang master. There is little incentive or indeed ability to seek medical attention when you fall ill. You will on average be in a young age group in any case and so able to ride out the coronavirus infection in all likelihood. These people are used to hardship and will just carry on working through their illness.

Another relevant factor re Lombardy is that a high proportion of the Chinese migrant labour force are actually from the Wuhan region.

Spain also has a high concentration of Chinese migrant labour and is now experiencing a huge increase in the number of cases.

Countries in Europe that don't rely on Chinese migrant labour so much have experienced far lower rates of infection.

This doesn't mean it won't spread everywhere - we have no immunity, so it will. But I think the Lombardy-China connection is no coincidence, it explains why the virus got such a big hold in the region, through multiple infection routes. As a consequence Italy now has the highest death rate per population in the whole world.

Quaoar wrote:

louis wrote:
Hi Quaoar,
A dystopic SF novel? A good description. Just like 9-11 was a badly scripted disaster movie, this is a badly scripted SF novel using that tired old plague theme! lol
Your pain is felt here. We have not yet entered lockdown in the UK but are watching developments on mainland Europe with gathering unease.
Is your media mentioning that the real reason for Italy being hit so bad is that you have so many Chinese migrant workers in the country, especially in North Italy, and that many of them came from the Wuhan district? I have seen the number given as about 100,000. Their status seems unclear and they work under the corrupt gang system. These facts are definitely being hidden in the UK media.
The first case were a couple of elderly Chinese tourists from Wuhan, who developed cough while in Rome on 21 January, but they were suddenly hospitalized, and all the people in their tour group were quarantined, so this virus lineage was contained (after a two-month-and-an-half battle, the two tourists survived and now they are OK).
The 3rd case was an Italian repatriated from Wuhan who was tested positive on 6 February and quarantined.
In Lombardy, the first case was a 38-year-old Italian man named Mattia, who went to a local first aid for a strong cough on 14 February. There, he spent many hours in the waiting room with many people before being dismissed without testing (at the time only people who had come from China had to be tested, according to the guideline). Then he developed a pneumonia and went again to the first aid. This time the doctor bent the protocol and tested him anyway. Mattia was found positive, hospitalized and put in a ICU, but in the meantime he had infected many people, who in turn spread the virus, causing the disaster. Mattia survived after being ventilated for almost a month, but it was not possible to find who infected him.
Lombardy, like every part of Italy, is full of Chinese-Italians and Chinese immigrant, but there is no evidence that the virus has come from them. Anyway a Chinese who lives in Italy has almost the same probability to get the virus and transmit it of every other Italian.
In my neighborhood there are many Chinese restaurant and shop-owners, who are very nice persons. During this ordeal, they showed a very strong self-discipline in obeying the orders of sanitary authority and very soon they locked themselves at home, better than many Italians, who though it's just like a flu.
In January, before the outbreak of the disease in Italy, I asked "Is it really so bad?" to the Chinese owner of a restaurant I used to eat before the lock down.
"You can not even imagine how bad it is" was her answer, and unfortunately she was right.

Last edited by louis (2020-03-15 18:45:04)

louis · 2020-03-15 20:28:00

You may wish to maintain that it is pure coincidence that the region in Europe with worst infection rates just happens to have the highest migrant population from the Wuhan region. Personally, I think that is relevant. Migrations are a key factor in disease spread.

Since you ask about their language skills, these are poor Chinese working in gangs. I doubt they ever get the opporunity to speak much Italian. They work in units to a Chinese gang master. We've had this in the UK. There was a tragic incident in the North of England where a Chinese gang died picking cockles in Morecambe Bay.

You should be thankful in the USA that you don't have the Chinese migrant gang system in operation there, at least as far as I know. You have a cheap supply of labour from Latin America, which serves the same purpose. That's why you haven't had the huge infection rates seen in Italy, despite all the US-China contacts.

SpaceNut wrote:

Grocery stores struggle to restock amid panic demand as coronavirus pandemic spreads as the local stores are bare of toilet paper, detergents with cleaning anti bacterial properties, virus killing like lysol, bleach, cleansing wipes, pasta, rice, paper towels, prepared canned foods... the list goes on and on. With many a facebook post showing those that over bought just to hike the price on these items to sell them out of the back of there cars and trucks....Tennessee AG cracks down on men who hoarded thousands of sanitizer bottles amid shopper scare
Coronavirus outbreak forces everyday life to shift dramatically With widespread closures, cancellations and forced quarantines, the coronavirus pandemic hit home for Americans this week.
Of course we now have the pandemic experts that are telling people to not believe the hype that let everyone get infected to build up immunity to the desease as thats not true in all cases of desease. The top 3 myths about immunity that doctors want you to stop believing ASAP
State to state the cracked down and change of activity is part of the slowing of the infection spreading efforts being undertaken.
Coronavirus Update: NJ Communities Impose Curfews, Order Businesses Closed As COVID-19 Rises To 98 Cases as Coronavirus: Ridgewood, Montclair impose restrictions, declare local states of emergency but the limits of gatherings are being based on exposure Live updates: CDC urges halting gatherings of 50 people or more; Federal Reserve slashes interest rates to zero
So what are we to believe as How many people have the coronavirus? Covid-19 update shows how the virus has spread, and number of deaths
The states are all taking the virus in schools differently as some cities are setting the tone of time while some states have said what will happen. Any thing from a week to 6 weeks I have seen with some making the effort state wide to slow and control the spread.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-15 22:25:35

edit 3-16-20
I hope that works as what I was trying to say about china immagrants was not that I "maintain that it is pure coincidence that the region in Europe" but was wanting to say we should stop pointing fingers at each other.

I would not want infection for the Queen quits Buckingham Palace over coronavirus fears as UK to self quarantine as he rate of death with age makes the queen very surceptable...

Quaoar · 2020-03-16 18:25:36

louis wrote:

I think you are employing "MSM Think", trying to find a 101 reasons why the Chinese migrant labour connection doesn't explain the outbreak in Lombardy . No one is accusing the Chinese population of being unsanitary and the problem is unlikely to lie with Chinese restaurant owners in your area who probably return to China infrequently. The problem lies with poorly regulated Chinese gang labourers who are being flown in and out of the region as required.
Look at the reality. Lombardy has one of the highest concentrations of Chinese migrant labour in Europe. Much of it is of a dubious legal status. The workers are working to a gang master. There is little incentive or indeed ability to seek medical attention when you fall ill. You will on average be in a young age group in any case and so able to ride out the coronavirus infection in all likelihood. These people are used to hardship and will just carry on working through their illness.
Another relevant factor re Lombardy is that a high proportion of the Chinese migrant labour force are actually from the Wuhan region.
Spain also has a high concentration of Chinese migrant labour and is now experiencing a huge increase in the number of cases.
Countries in Europe that don't rely on Chinese migrant labour so much have experienced far lower rates of infection.
This doesn't mean it won't spread everywhere - we have no immunity, so it will. But I think the Lombardy-China connection is no coincidence, it explains why the virus got such a big hold in the region, through multiple infection routes. As a consequence Italy now has the highest death rate per population in the whole world.

Chinese illegal immigration peaked 25 years ago, when China was very poor and Italy was still a rich country. There were Chinese gangs, as you correctly said, who treated Chinese immigrant as salves and forced them to hard work in their illegal factories. I have a friend in the Carabinieri Corp who arrested many of these gang members.

But now the landscape is different. In the last decades the situation has reversed: China became rich and Italy became poor. So a Chinese worker now has no interest to migrate in Italy, where jobs are scarce and salary are low, because he/she can find far better opportunity in his/her country.

Italy has not ICE, so Chinese who illegally migrate in the 1980-2000 years now are almost all regularized. The Chinese "migrants" of today are entrepreneurs, who cheaply acquire valuable but underfunded Italian companies. There are also many young Italian scientists and engineers, unable to find a job in Italy, who are hired by Chinese companies and migrate to China.
In these years immigration in Italy has come mostly from Africa by sea and from Pakistan and Iraq by land, and these are the people who are now exploited by the mobs.

Anyway, before the outbreak of the disease, the streets of the main Italian cities, like Milan, Rome, Florence and Venice were crowded of Chinese tourist, so there is no reason to point permanent Chinese residents.
Probably one of the reason of this viral explosion is the intense social life of us Italians and our habit of the double kiss salute: it may explain why we have more and more cases than countries like Japan where people salute by bowing, never touching each other.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-17 04:51:25)

Mark Friedenbach · 2020-03-16 18:41:17

Guys, does it matter? The virus is out.

louis · 2020-03-16 21:15:42

It hasn't changed. It's still a gang system. Most Chinese workers in Italy don't enter into employment contracts, they work to a gang-master. Quaoar is peddling nonsense.

SpaceNut wrote:

Thank you Quaoar for the history lesson on immigration elements and how its changed.
The fact or lack there in for nations cooperating is still evident.
The state I live in is sort of tiny in comparison to others in the US but even its Governor has decided to have the schools closed for 3 weeks and could make it quite a bit longer depending on how the virus continues to spread.
Each state has been basically told to fend for thineself for how and what they need to do. Which in cludes building up of hospital equipment respirators which will be greatly needed for the sick as required.
So states have set addendance levels in a single location as well as recogmending distances that you should keep between you and others.
Restaraunts and bars are being ordered closed and while food stores are open they are quickly running out of many items in the histeria along with those trying to make a buck by buying up items for later resale with price gouging for those that are dispair for the items.
Convience stores are taping off food items and must request the ready to eat be handed to them from the protected areas and even the single coffee creamers have been pulled from the open for the customer to grab for now.
They are also stepping up cleaning of counter tops and serving areas and can not have any seating for customers to enjoy there purchases at in the stores any longer.
one stop all states for information on the corona virus

louis · 2020-03-16 21:19:52

You are really claiming that people in Rome and the South of Italy don't practise the double kiss? lol

So why is the outbreak so concentrated in Northern Italy and, in particular, the Lombardy region? Hmmm....I wonder why...

You are desperate to find ways to ignore the Chinese connection, aren't you? I have to ask: "Why?". Migration has always been a (not the only, of course) source of disease transmission. Pretending it isn't is just stupid.

Quaoar wrote:

louis wrote:
I think you are employing "MSM Think", trying to find a 101 reasons why the Chinese migrant labour connection doesn't explain the outbreak in Lombardy . No one is accusing the Chinese population of being unsanitary and the problem is unlikely to lie with Chinese restaurant owners in your area who probably return to China infrequently. The problem lies with poorly regulated Chinese gang labourers who are being flown in and out of the region as required.
Look at the reality. Lombardy has one of the highest concentrations of Chinese migrant labour in Europe. Much of it is of a dubious legal status. The workers are working to a gang master. There is little incentive or indeed ability to seek medical attention when you fall ill. You will on average be in a young age group in any case and so able to ride out the coronavirus infection in all likelihood. These people are used to hardship and will just carry on working through their illness.
Another relevant factor re Lombardy is that a high proportion of the Chinese migrant labour force are actually from the Wuhan region.
Spain also has a high concentration of Chinese migrant labour and is now experiencing a huge increase in the number of cases.
Countries in Europe that don't rely on Chinese migrant labour so much have experienced far lower rates of infection.
This doesn't mean it won't spread everywhere - we have no immunity, so it will. But I think the Lombardy-China connection is no coincidence, it explains why the virus got such a big hold in the region, through multiple infection routes. As a consequence Italy now has the highest death rate per population in the whole world.
Chinese illegal immigration peaked 25 years ago, when China was very poor and Italy was still a rich country. There was Chinese gangs, as you correctly said, who treated Chinese immigrant as salves and forced them to hard work in their illegal factories. I have a friend in Carabinieri Corp who arrested many of these gang members.
But now the landscape is different. In the last decades the situation has reversed: China became rich and Italy became poor. So a Chinese worker now has no interest to migrate in Italy, where jobs are scarce and salary are low, because he/she can find far better opportunity in his/her country.
Italy has not ICE so Chinese who illegally migrate in the 1980-2000 years are almost all regularized. The Chinese "migrant" of today are entrepreneurs, who cheaply acquire valuable but underfunded Italian companies. There are also many young Italian scientists and engineers, unable to find a job in Italy, who are hired by Chinese companies and migrate to China.
In these years immigration in Italy has come mostly from Africa by sea and from Pakistan and Iraq by land, and these are the people who are now exploited by the mobs.
Anyway, before the outbreak of the disease, the streets of the main Italian cities, like Milan, Rome, Florence and Venice were crowded of Chinese tourist, so there is no reason to point permanent Chinese residents.
Probably one of the reason of this viral explosion is the intense social life of us Italians and our habit of the double kiss salute: it may explain why we have more and more cases than countries like Japan where people salute by bowing, never touching each other.

Quaoar · 2020-03-17 05:44:30

louis wrote:

You are really claiming that people in Rome and the South of Italy don't practise the double kiss? lol
So why is the outbreak so concentrated in Northern Italy and, in particular, the Lombardy region? Hmmm....I wonder why...
You are desperate to find ways to ignore the Chinese connection, aren't you? I have to ask: "Why?". Migration has always been a (not the only, of course) source of disease transmission. Pretending it isn't is just stupid.

Milan, the capital city of Lombardy, is the main economic hub of Italy, like NY for the US. So, every day, before the lock-down, thousands and thousands of people from every part of the world arrived in it and departed from it. Milan has also many important monuments, like the Duomo, the Basilica of Saint Ambrose and the Sforza Castle and famous museum like the Brera Art Gallery, so it was also crowded of tourists (many of them were from China and we Italians were very happy that they spent their money in our country). The typical Italian tourist route, in fact, was Milan-Venice-Florence-Rome. So, in absence of data, how can you say that the epidemic has come from a Chinese resident or Chinese tourist or an European businessman/woman coming back from China, or an African illegal immigrant who has had a contact with an infected Chinese?
The first outbreak of this pandemic was Wuhan, we all know it, but we live in a globalized world, where is very easy for a virus to spread everywhere. We all enjoy mass tourism, fast and cheep travels and fast information flow, but the downside of the lifestyle of this epoch is even the fast spreading of diseases.

So, as I said before, I think it is childish to quarrel about who's guilty. By now, covid-19 our common enemy and we all have to cooperate to eradicate it.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-17 06:10:14)

louis · 2020-03-17 07:53:44

I think you're in denial. China's a big place. Not all Chinese tourists would be likely to have the virus. Hong Kong even now has a tiny number of deaths (6 I think).

However, a lot of the Chinese gang workers in Northern Italy came from the Wuhan region. They will by definition be mostly relatively young and would be able to work through any illness, because that would be what was expected of them under the gang system. There will have been hundreds of these "super-spreaders" in Northern Italy, working in crowded factories, on farms, in construction and so on. That is why you have had some an explosive outbreak in my view but only in Northern Italy, not Rome, despite it being a hot spot for tourism.

Quaoar wrote:

louis wrote:
You are really claiming that people in Rome and the South of Italy don't practise the double kiss? lol
So why is the outbreak so concentrated in Northern Italy and, in particular, the Lombardy region? Hmmm....I wonder why...
You are desperate to find ways to ignore the Chinese connection, aren't you? I have to ask: "Why?". Migration has always been a (not the only, of course) source of disease transmission. Pretending it isn't is just stupid.
Milan, the capital city of Lombardy, is the main economic hub of Italy, like NY for the US. So, every day, before the lock-down, thousands and thousands of people from every part of the world arrived in it and departed from it. Milan has also many important monuments, like the Duomo, the Basilica of Saint Ambrose and the Sforza Castle and famous museum like the Brera Art Gallery, so it was also crowded of tourists (many of them were from China and we Italians were very happy that they spent their money in our country). The typical Italian tourist route, in fact, was Milan-Venice-Florence-Rome. So, in absence of data, how can you say that the epidemic has come from a Chinese resident or Chinese tourist or an European businessman/woman coming back from China, or an African illegal immigrant who has had a contact with an infected Chinese?
The first outbreak of this pandemic was Wuhan, we all know it, but we live in a globalized world, where is very easy for a virus to spread everywhere. We all enjoy mass tourism, fast and cheep travels and fast information flow, but the downside of the lifestyle of this epoch is even the fast spreading of diseases.
So, as I said before, I think it is childish to quarrel about who's guilty. By now, covid-19 our common enemy and we all have to cooperate to eradicate it.

Last edited by louis (2020-03-17 07:54:17)

Quaoar · 2020-03-17 11:29:38

louis wrote:

I think you're in denial. China's a big place. Not all Chinese tourists would be likely to have the virus. Hong Kong even now has a tiny number of deaths (6 I think).
However, a lot of the Chinese gang workers in Northern Italy came from the Wuhan region. They will by definition be mostly relatively young and would be able to work through any illness, because that would be what was expected of them under the gang system. There will have been hundreds of these "super-spreaders" in Northern Italy, working in crowded factories, on farms, in construction and so on. That is why you have had some an explosive outbreak in my view but only in Northern Italy, not Rome, despite it being a hot spot for tourism.

As I explained you previously, in the present time, illegal immigration in Italy came mostly from Africa, Pakistan and Iraq: and these are the people who are exploited by gangs and used as a cheep work force. China is richer than Italy and now a Chinese has no interest to illegally migrate in Italy because he/she can find better work opportunity at home.
From 1980 to 2000 there was a big immigration from Asia, mostly Chinese and Filipinos, but now they are almost all regularized and perfectly integrate. Chinese residents in Italy are quite wealthy and the most part of them behave as good citizens and have a very low criminal rate.

Even Italian regular workers, now, due to job scarce, are forced to work through illness in crowded regular factories, fearing to be fired, becoming potential super-spreaders. So why to point the finger on Chinese?
A Chinese who lives in Italy, even if he/she was born in Wuhan, have exactly the same probability to become infected and transmit the virus of any other person.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-17 13:42:05)

louis · 2020-03-17 16:01:45

And as I explained to you, I was not referring to "illegal" migration. The Chinese labourers pass through airports openly. My claim is that the work conditions are of dubious legality and that will be a contributory factor in the spread of the disease. They work in gangs, they are not genuine employees.

To dispute your claims, I offer you this (from a report on Modern Slavery):

"The Tuscan city of Prato is one of Italy’s main production hubs of textiles and garments, turning out cheap clothing for “fast fashion” companies as well as designer brands based in Italy and elsewhere in Europe. Prato has attracted one of the largest Chinese communities in Europe over the last 20 years. While Chinese-run enterprises make up about 80 percent of all operating companies in the Italian garment-making sector, most of the employees in these companies are Chinese who may enter Italy legally on a three-month tourist visas but end up violating the terms of their visas by working and overstaying until they have earned enough money to return to China. It is estimated that up to two-thirds of the Chinese in Prato are undocumented workers.There are concerns that many of the Chinese-run workshops use illegal labour, under-the-table payments and make their employees work long hours and at night. 24 Interviewed workers have reported sweatshop-like working conditions, such as sleeping in cardboard cubicles in workshops and working from 8am to 10pm every day of the week, producing 70 shirts a day for 70 euro cents (US$0.81)
25 per shirt. "

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018 … ies/italy/

This is the reality of life in Northern Italy. If you don't want to accept it, well I guess that's your privilege.

Quaoar wrote:

louis wrote:
I think you're in denial. China's a big place. Not all Chinese tourists would be likely to have the virus. Hong Kong even now has a tiny number of deaths (6 I think).
However, a lot of the Chinese gang workers in Northern Italy came from the Wuhan region. They will by definition be mostly relatively young and would be able to work through any illness, because that would be what was expected of them under the gang system. There will have been hundreds of these "super-spreaders" in Northern Italy, working in crowded factories, on farms, in construction and so on. That is why you have had some an explosive outbreak in my view but only in Northern Italy, not Rome, despite it being a hot spot for tourism.
As I explained you previously, in the present time, illegal immigration in Italy came mostly from Africa, Pakistan and Iraq: and these are the people who are exploited by gangs and used as a cheep work force. China is richer than Italy and now a Chinese has no interest to illegally migrate in Italy because he/she can find better work opportunity at home.
From 1980 to 2000 there was a big immigration from Asia, mostly Chinese and Filipinos, but now they are almost all regularized and perfectly integrate. Chinese residents in Italy are quite wealthy and the most part of them behave as good citizens and have a very low criminal rate.
Even Italian regular workers, now, due to job scarce, are forced to work through illness in crowded regular factories, fearing to be fired, becoming potential super-spreaders. So why to point the finger on Chinese?
A Chinese who lives in Italy, even if he/she was born in Wuhan, have exactly the same probability to become infected and transmit the virus of any other person.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-17 16:20:47

This has become political ....I have to take the word of the one that lives there not a conspiracy sites content.

While we know that comunism is a state run sweat shop operation we would hope that the nations that have these people are not allowing it to continue there.

The cultures of many nations need to change to that resembling the parent nation that they are now residing in and not the other way around...

In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future. Criminal law in some countries or for some conspiracies may require that at least one overt act be undertaken in furtherance of that agreement, to constitute an offense. The gangs, a group have a secret plan to do something unlawful or harmful.

louis · 2020-03-17 18:54:48

What are you on about? - a "conspiracy site"?? Another wild accusation!

The Index is produced by the Walk Free initiative of the philanthropic Minderoo Foundation. They work closely with the International Labour Organisation and the International Organisation for Migration, both well respected bodies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati … _Migration

Just because someone lives in a country, doesn't mean they know what's going on in it. There are plenty of people living in London who have no idea of the conditions in which poor migrants live or how the gang system works. Hardly anyone in the UK knew about Chinese work gangs until this tragedy in which 21 Chinese migrants were drowned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_More … g_disaster

SpaceNut wrote:

This has become political ....I have to take the word of the one that lives there not a conspiracy sites content.
While we know that comunism is a state run sweat shop operation we would hope that the nations that have these people are not allowing it to continue there.
The cultures of many nations need to change to that resembling the parent nation that they are now residing in and not the other way around...

SpaceNut · 2020-03-17 19:55:37

Seems the member nations are not listening to the advice that they being given with regards to the refugees and such as thats simple deport them back to parent nation and jail the others as they are committing crimes to which it sounds like that they are.

louis · 2020-03-17 19:57:45

So why did you say I was sourcing a "conspiracy site"?

SpaceNut wrote:

Seems the member nations are not listening to the advice that they being given with regards to the refugees and such as thats simple deport them back to parent nation and jail the others as they are committing crimes to which it sounds like that they are.

Quaoar · 2020-03-18 07:06:27

louis wrote:

And as I explained to you, I was not referring to "illegal" migration. The Chinese labourers pass through airports openly. My claim is that the work conditions are of dubious legality and that will be a contributory factor in the spread of the disease. They work in gangs, they are not genuine employees.
To dispute your claims, I offer you this (from a report on Modern Slavery):

I know my country, so let me explain you how it really works:
What you claim for Chinese is the overall situation of all Italian workers. From 1980-2000 Italy was still a rich country, so Italian workers were fully protected by laws: They have the right of 2 month/year of paid sick-leave and if they became sick during summer vacation, they had even the right to get the lost vacation days (and many people took advantage of these laws to take three months of vacation each year).
From 2000 to now, Italy impoverished and unemployment rise dramatically.
Now the laws are almost the same, and Italian workers are still full protected, but only on the papers. The reality is very different: Italian workers perfectly know if they are fired it will take years to find a new job, so they work overtime, underpaid, in dire security situation, and even through illness. You don't need gangs to force people to do this: the fear to be fired is enough.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-18 07:09:26)

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-18 16:14:32

For Quaoar ....

Thank you for your spirited (and convincing to me) exposition in response to Louis.

I am taking the liberty of picking up on your expressed vocation of writing science fiction. I have a lifelong fascination of and appreciation for this branch of literature.

please consider taking a look at two topics which have been active in this forum recently.

The first is the concept of wrapping an asteroid (such as Apophis) in a cocoon of basalt thread, as envisioned in a topic started by Calliban.

The second is an almost totally science fiction concept of launching payload from a location on the surface of the Earth, using a technology that has been demonstrated by the United States to launch fighter aircraft from an aircraft carrier at a speed of 150 miles per hour, or 241 kph.

In both cases, a science fiction writer can reach an audience of young people who can actually ** build ** each of these systems, long after the originators of the concept are long gone.

I am particularly enthusiastic about "Calliban's Spider" which the originator (Calliban) has generously released to the public.

This term ** should ** be capable of catching on with your audience.

As a side note ... there is a Shakespearean character with a similar name, which should (somehow) be differentiated from the NewMars Calliban.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-03-18 16:15:15)

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