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#126 2020-02-10 22:19:07

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,771

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

For Louis re #124

Thanks for picking up on the question I've posed.

You've asked an interesting question, and (at this point) I don't know the answer.

Your question assumes that a ski moving across a layer of ice will cause it to melt.

We humans have several centuries experience moving objects across ice.

During winter on Earth, lakes and rivers in Canada freeze over, and truck traffic carries great quantities of material over the frozen surfaces.

It seems worth investigating to see if a layer of ice (water or carbon dioxide) can be maintained in tunnels under the Martian surface. If they can, and if any heating caused by traffic can be removed by dissipating that heating into the Martian regolith around the pipe, then the speed of transit should be quite high. 

The principle of operation of Elon Musk's Hyperloop is to move pods through evacuated tunnels, so a Martian atmosphere might well qualify as "evacuated" for transportation purposes. Relatively little energy would (presumably) be needed to keep pods moving along an ice layer inside a tunnel, and that could be provided by overhead magnetic fields.

Another advantage of an ice layer transport system is that the engineering crew does not need to worry about keeping the pipe perfectly level for its entire length, as would be the case for a water borne transport system.  A bit more energy would be required to move a pod up a modest incline, but then less energy would be required to move it on the down trending incline.

I notice this topic is about Power Distribution and not about Transportation of Goods by pipelines on Mars.

It might be time for someone to start a new topic to allow for continued development of this branch, while the original is allowed to continue developing along its original path.

Edit#1: A quick Google search seems to support the supposition that no measurements of temperature under the surface of Mars have been carried out. The most recent lander included a temperature probe, but it was driven only a short distance under the surface.

The most recent report I found was from October of 2019, and the heat probe was still at the surface, so it would appear we humans have no direct knowledge of temperatures under the surface.

Thus, we have no way of knowing if temperatures under the surface are low enough all year long to support an ice based transport system. 

Edit#2: The article at the link below provides a short introduction to the mechanics of ski interaction with snow.  It discusses the effect of pressure on snow, melting to water and then freezing to ice.

http://www.mechanicsofsport.com/skiing/ … s/why.html

Edit#3: This is primarily for Lewis, in (partial) answer to your question about a ski melting ice.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/ … 1fc41f4973

The author appears to have investigated the physics of sliding on ice to some depth.  I was interested to learn that although melting does occur when a ski interacts with a layer of ice, the temperature drop is only (about) 1 degree.  Sliding is still observed in arctic expeditions with temperatures of -40. The key take-away for me is the idea that there exists a state of water at the boundary between ice and atmosphere which is disordered, and allows or enables low friction interaction of the ice with a surface such as that of a ski.

I am coming away from this preliminary investigation thinking that there may be a range of temperature of an ice passage that would be optimum for ski transport on the Earth or on Mars.

The freezing temperature of carbon dioxide is so much lower that that of water that I find it difficult to imagine a transportation tunnel based upon dry ice is practical for Mars, but perhaps there are some permanently cold regions where the physics of sliding on dry ice would be favorable for transportation.

Edit#4: Here is some actual research done with dry ice.  The focus is a question: Could blocks of dry ice be making tracks on Mars.

The answer is (apparently) that is possible, but since the experiments were done on Earth, they are not conclusive.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … n-gullies/

What I'm picking up from the article is the idea that the direct sublimation of dry ice may provide a frictionless surface, since the support material is a gas rather than a liquid.

Research would be needed to discover if there is a combination of dry ice and sled material, and temperature of the environment, that favors low friction sliding of a transport pod.

A warning appeared on a nine year old thread about skiing on dry ice, that a ski made of "normal" material might simply freeze to the dry ice. However, I took that as mere speculation, since the thread itself appeared to be of a lighthearted bantering nature.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-10 23:46:27)

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#127 2020-02-11 16:53:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,902

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The energy of mars, gasses and so much more are being transport and with the purposes brodened to include people not just goods we are looking at the means to connect all of the my Hacienda to gether.

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#128 2020-10-19 20:14:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,902

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Just goes to show that we have a topic for just about everything.

tahanson43206 wrote:

The article at the link below is about study of the use of existing natural gas pipelines for shipment of green hydrogen.

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/e … wwse100286

A detail from the article that I thought might be interesting to the NewMars community is that shipment of hydrogen through a pipeline that was designed for natural gas has the same energy throughput, if the pumps are changed.

While the energy density of hydrogen (at the same pressure and temperature) is smaller than that of natural gas (about 1/3), by increasing the pressure in the pipeline the energy delivery is about the same.

Where I see this as of possible interest for Mars is the potential to ship hydrogen via pipeline to human settlements from locations where water is found, which otherwise may be unsuitable for settlement.

As I understand the article, shipment of energy by pipeline is on the order of 14 times more efficient than shipping the same energy by high energy electric lines.

(th)

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#129 2020-10-20 13:17:22

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,558

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

It's white out there, and I am playing sissy today.  First snow, all sorts of bad driving happens.
I liked this reconnection.  Places like Europe could do some things with this that I sort of like to speculate on.  And perhaps there is something for warm places as well.
I am thinking of massive storge tanks on the bottoms of Oceans for Hydrogen.  Of course maybe salt domes as well.
Um....The thing about big storage tanks in deep water is they will get cold.  When you withdraw the Hydrogen it will get even colder if you expand it.
I suppose this could as well then be a way to get cold out of the deeps of the sea, as well as to distribute Hydrogen to a need.
I am thinking windmills again.  In this case, if you are in a warm moist climate you may use the cold expanding Hydrogen to flow through your windmill blades to condense water from the atmosphere.  Then you could have jet engines on the ends of the blades.  I guess you then have your choices.  Electricity from wind and jet engines, or do you want the water more.  Maybe some times you can have it all.  But don't blow up your windmill!
For icy climates, I guess you burn the Hydrogen first and then flow it through the blades, if you can keep it from freezing up.  I guess you might be able to have rocket thrusters, sort of on the ends of the blades.
Efficient?  Effictive?  Cow Should I know smile
Done.


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#130 2020-10-21 13:13:59

Void
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Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

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I think it is fairly obvious that the petrochemical industry off shore is well situated to work with deep sea Hydrogen.  And we should not waste their skills, or let them vanish.  The desert locations of the planet may well figure into this as well, per various types of solar.
The main goal is to keep technological/industrial humanity alive, and to keep slave traders from owning them.  This, in my opinion is the path to a technological future for humans on Earth and space.  Hopefully the "On Earth" line can be held as well against the slave traders and owners.  And yes, I believe we are approaching that time phase again, but with better chances this time.  I think this time is early still, but we need to get ready to repulse what I consider to be evil, the notion that people can own people, and dispose of them as they like.
Now then, on to more cheerful things.  A hydrolox economy in support of a metholox economy on many worlds.
Earth and Mars are very interesting for these things, I feel.
For Earth, of course very deep oceans, for Mars mostly very shallow seas and such that have to be thawed, and will most likely need a covering, often involving ice.
The energy implications are obvious.  But we can also have food production methods in both cases.  There are many micobes that can consume Hydrogen and CO2 in a situation where water exists, and they might produce organic mass and Methane.
Filter feeders?  Well many creatures do such.  Brine Shrimp, Whales, why not humans with their machines?  So, then doing that on both planets, a food source.  In the case of Mars, we would have to liberate Oxygen to get the Hydrogen from water.
The motabolism of the microbes will then also help to melt seas and lakes on Mars.
As per appatizing, I guess the short life spans of microbes indicates a better posibility to engineer them to nutrition and appitite.  3D printing suggests to make texture and visual needs.
And so, then we eat things as we always do.  If someone can figure out how to make humans run directly on electricity, then good, then we don't have to eat other organisms.  Untill then we remain corpse eaters.
smile  Sorry, but that is real.
Done.
OK, then maybe Hydrogen and CO2? 
But in the end, if you make an omnipotent successor to Humans with full moral responsibility, understanding everything in the snap of a finger, will it enjoy life?
I think I will settle for less.
Something I recall from an incedent where my mind completely got warped is an answer to the question of what is life about.  The answer was "The phone rings and you answer it".
Done Done.


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#131 2020-10-21 19:50:16

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,902

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The pipelines can have any mix of ethane based gases in any ratio but to make use of them for specific applications may require a seperation piece of equipment before pure gasses can be used.

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/pr … chmura.pdf
Existing Natural Gas Pipeline Materials and Associated

https://www.croftsystems.net/oil-gas-bl … important/

https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Gas_ … ations.php

So after the material for the piping is selected we then need equipment to be able to lay them under ground between terminal locations that are until a base build up is unknown.

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#132 Yesterday 17:04:15

Void
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Posts: 3,558

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

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Yes Spacenut, pipes on Earth or Mars for various purposes will need reference to past practices and experts in the field as a start.
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Query: "Is there Oil on Mars? with Dr. John Mcgowan"
Hydrocarbons?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3
And there is this:
https://oilonmars.blogspot.com/#:~:text … es%20Mensa.
And no, I am not asserting that "There are Hydrocarbons on Mars in quantities".  However there are detected small amounts of Methane emissions.
My purpose in this post is to speculate on the subject either way yes or no, and then to suggest that we should be prepared to adapt to either situation.  If there are significant petroleum deposits on Mars, then that is going to be a great treasure.  If not, then we have to adapt to that situation of Hydrocarbon absence.
If we are not adaptive then we have wasted a great part of the efforts to attain Mars.
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I am particularly interested in both possibilities in relation to "Plasma Manipulations of organic chemicals on Mars'.
While I am ok with "Moxie", I also am interested in a family of potential methods for Mars.
Extracting Oxygen from Martian atmosphere with plasma.  Actually it seems that under Martian conditions you might do this very efficiently.  The pressures and temperatures are favorable to it. Reference:
https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/ … 0separated.
The above could possibly be very useful on Mars, as you might inject the output of Oxygen and CO into a bioprocessor, and allow microbes to consume the CO and some of the Oxygen.  I do not think they would consume all of the Oxygen, as they need to incorporate Carbon into their bodies.  This should leave behind a dissolved mixture of Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon and maybe trace gasses.
Then you may process the biomass for Methane.
Extracting Hydrogen from Methane with plasma.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/extract … 0emissions.
There are various ways.  The output can be dominantly Hydrogen with some CO.  This is said to be an excellent fuel for many industrial processes.  Perhaps metal refining.
Of interest is that you may "Sink" Oxygen into a Carbon source, such as sewage, and obtain Hydrogen from water.
It is just mind boggling.  Very important for Mars, I think.
If you had Methane and Petroleum fields, then you can get lots of Hydrogen and CO.
------
One part that is somewhat discouraging is they don't seem to have made enough progress in getting both Oxygen and Hydrogen from water.  That seems harder.  If you investigate however, I believe you will be surprised at what plasma processes might offer.

Done


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#133 Yesterday 19:03:47

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,902

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The more we have a quantity of hydrocarbons the more of a problem having the oxidizer becomes as there is very limited water unless its underground in large reservoirs to extract the oxygen from as the atmosphere is quite trouble some to acquire to the very low pressure level.
The starship shows just how hard its going to be for quantities that we are going to need.

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#134 Yesterday 19:45:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,558

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

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An interesting way to pose the analysis of the situation Spacenut.  I have looked down these pathways as well.  However whatever turns out to be real is what would need to be worked with.
For Earth excessive emissions  of Hydrocarbons would be a concern, and for Mars as well.  However Mars has a very deep permafrost layer that probabbly separates a very Oxidized surface from what may or may not be a Hydrocarbon enriched deep regolith.
For now, we have a very thin atmosphere, which can allow a fair amount of aerobrakeing, and which will not strongly prohibit Mars from being a platform for going out into the solar system.  It can be that some day an atmosphere of 330 millibars may give a living but glacial planet where humans can in favorable conditions go outside without excessive protection.  But as Nitrogen is likely to be dear to get, that is the extent of my projection of a maximum living Mars.
However, if you use hyper greenhouse gasses or somehow procure 770 mBar of Nitrogen, then you melt the permafrost, and all that Methane, (If it exists), sucks down all your atmospheric Oxygen.
It would be a good problem to have, all that is needed is to not be silly about wanting to have a tropical rain forest system on Mars.  Our kinds do well with temperate and even perhaps low Arctic anyway.
And before terraforming in a massive way, it could be wonderful to have an overyly Oxidized surface, (Perchlorates), and a petrochemical deeps of the regolith.

However it is determines what a rational method might be.
Done.


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