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#26 2020-01-23 13:00:52

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,444

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

For what it's worth, I believe Chinese, Koreans and Japanese all outperform Europeans on IQ tests.

But as Terraformer has clarified, it's not a question of selecting for IQ but rather selecting for high level skills.

Calliban wrote:
Terraformer wrote:

Oldfart,

Mars *is* named for the Roman god of war. I see nothing wrong with turning it into Ethniklashistan.

What's the IQ threshold for space settlement? If it's 120, then you're talking about only taking the top 10% of the population, before getting into other considerations. Then there's the countries the settlers will be taken from - almost all of which are East Asian, European, or Anglo-colonial - which means that 10% will be drawn from perhaps 3 billion people at most. Of those 300 million, how many will pass the physical test, or be of the right age? How many have the right skills? How many could be taken before causing serious problems for those left behind (brain drain)?

Simply having an IQ120 selection criterion, would make Martians a rather 'white' people.  I'm guessing that most of the western nations would score higher, were it not for the contamination of ethnic-immigration.

https://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=2812


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2020-01-23 15:14:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,766

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

IQ tests have no ability to tell whether you have common sense, natural hand skills, or any other trade ability. It takes muscle to move stone, or blocks or to torque a bolt to the correct setting to stay tight, not brains.

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#28 2020-01-23 22:09:23

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,175

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of outlandish transportation plans...

I think we need to consider using Phobos and Deimos as orbital "truck stops" to refuel and offload passengers and cargo for transport to the surface.  We need a large facility there for temporary storage so that the ITV's can return to Earth and the Starships can take payloads between the moons and the surface as time and resources permit.  This is Mars Base Camp on steroids.  We're also going to need those solar power satellites that our nuclear fusion program has recently enabled.  Beaming power to the surface is a good way to ensure that there's always power available and the arrays are not subject to destructive blowing abrasives that coat everything on the surface.  Any unnecessary surface infrastructure, by definition, detracts from useful payload (people and the cargo they require to live there).  A series of solar power satellites powered by electric propulsion using Argon siphoned off from the Martian atmosphere is the way to go for a large colony that needs to expand as fast as possible.  A colony can afford to have a gigawatt class rectifying antenna and at this scale, the propellant savings from minimizing the ferrying of power generation infrastructure to the surface really starts to add up.

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#29 2020-01-24 03:27:36

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 309

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

kbd512 wrote:

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of outlandish transportation plans...

I think we need to consider using Phobos and Deimos as orbital "truck stops" to refuel and offload passengers and cargo for transport to the surface.  We need a large facility there for temporary storage so that the ITV's can return to Earth and the Starships can take payloads between the moons and the surface as time and resources permit.  This is Mars Base Camp on steroids.  We're also going to need those solar power satellites that our nuclear fusion program has recently enabled.  Beaming power to the surface is a good way to ensure that there's always power available and the arrays are not subject to destructive blowing abrasives that coat everything on the surface.  Any unnecessary surface infrastructure, by definition, detracts from useful payload (people and the cargo they require to live there).  A series of solar power satellites powered by electric propulsion using Argon siphoned off from the Martian atmosphere is the way to go for a large colony that needs to expand as fast as possible.  A colony can afford to have a gigawatt class rectifying antenna and at this scale, the propellant savings from minimizing the ferrying of power generation infrastructure to the surface really starts to add up.

Sounds very sensible.  In the short term, a Phobos stopover is a significant addition to infrastructure cost.  However, if Musk intends to push ahead with his 'million people on Mars plan' it makes a lot of sense taking advantage of a source of oxygen and reaction mass that is already in orbit about Mars.  And it allows travel between the planets to be carried out using cheaper reaction propelled vehicles, drawing power from lightweight solar arrays.

Solar power satellites are a sensible long-term option for powering large cities.  We have already established that settlements on Mars will be energy hungry.  But they are a multi-GW scale operation.  Microwaves have poor beam coherence and at a height of 17,000km, the minimum practical size of a rectenna would be about 5km in diameter.

An SSPS in areostationary orbit, would be in shadow about 6% of the time (1hour 20m per day).  During these time, a Martian city would need to load shed some electrical consumers.  Alternatively, or in addition, there would need to be electricity storage for these short times.  Flywheels, gravity storage, compressed CO2, hydrogen + open cycle gas turbines, etc.  It is somewhat easier to do this, if we are planning for a predictable load, for a predictable duration and time of occurrence.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-01-24 03:30:43)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#30 2020-01-24 08:57:27

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,202
Website

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

Helpfully, the shadow would be during the middle of the night. Other than life support, there shouldn't be much going on then - and even then, life support energy will mostly be in the form of heat, which can be stored quite easily. We should have more than an hour of oxygen buffered as well.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#31 2020-01-24 15:13:21

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,444

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

I think nearly all the early pioneers will be educated to postgrad level - they really need to be, and that will mean they are more than likely to have above-average IQ, but on top of that they will have good manual skills as well.

SpaceNut wrote:

IQ tests have no ability to tell whether you have common sense, natural hand skills, or any other trade ability. It takes muscle to move stone, or blocks or to torque a bolt to the correct setting to stay tight, not brains.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#32 2020-01-24 15:58:47

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 309

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

louis wrote:

I think nearly all the early pioneers will be educated to postgrad level - they really need to be, and that will mean they are more than likely to have above-average IQ, but on top of that they will have good manual skills as well.

SpaceNut wrote:

IQ tests have no ability to tell whether you have common sense, natural hand skills, or any other trade ability. It takes muscle to move stone, or blocks or to torque a bolt to the correct setting to stay tight, not brains.

Yeah.  But according to Spacenut's definition what we really need is trained apes.  Lots muscle, natural hand skills and preferably a torque wrench.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#33 2020-01-24 17:45:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,766

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

Manual labour or manual work is physical work done by people, most especially in contrast to that done by machines, it is work done with any of the muscles and bones of the body but even when some machines are use the person operating them still in most cases still require quite a bit of muscle.
article is 17 page slide format for the 16 Highest Paying Manual Labor Jobs of which in the constructing phases of mars colonization of which many will be much needed.
reverse listing
16. Insulation Workers
15. Glaziers
14. Masonry Workers
13. Hazardous Materials Removal Workers
12. Drywall and Ceiling Tile Installers, and Tapers
11. Carpenters
10. Machinists and Tool and Die Makers
9. Heating, Air Conditioning, and Refrigeration Mechanics and Installers
8. Sheet Metal Workers
7. Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters
6. Electricians
5. Telecommunication Equipment Installers and Repairers
4. Railroad Workers
3. Aircraft and Avionics Equipment Mechanics and Technicians
2. Boilermakers
1. Rotary Drill Operators, Oil and Gas

While some will have no imediate need there are many precusor jobs of simular trades skills required. Most of these are apprentership style learning on the job training with some higher level course work that are certificate or college levels.


This is a reference on IQ so lets be careful with the contents please as not all people fall or follow in the categorizations implied...
http://aristocratsofthesoul.com/average … ethnicity/

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#34 2020-01-24 18:04:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,444

Re: Musk's Insane Plan

I'm not a fan of IQ test obsession, in case you are implying I am. IQ test ability can clearly be acquired. For about 60 years after they were invented people just kept getting better and better at them in Europe and the USA, which is why the baseline was always having to be raised.  A person with 100 IQ in 2000 would like have scored 90 or lower back in 1940. Improved education, radio, TV, cinema, travel, computer games and many more reading opportunities all led to improved ability to tackle IQ tests.  Last time I looked, scoring was starting to level out or even decline - possibly a result of people living in their personal bubbles these days.

Regarding those categories, I think for Mars pioneers some will be less relevant. A lot of habitat will come ready made from Earth and will be "snap-fit" or inflatable. 

Certainly there will be a need for expert electricians. I think we would expect some pioneers to combine electrical engineering expertise and electrical installation skills.


SpaceNut wrote:

Manual labour or manual work is physical work done by people, most especially in contrast to that done by machines, it is work done with any of the muscles and bones of the body but even when some machines are use the person operating them still in most cases still require quite a bit of muscle.
article is 17 page slide format for the 16 Highest Paying Manual Labor Jobs of which in the constructing phases of mars colonization of which many will be much needed.
reverse listing
16. Insulation Workers
15. Glaziers
14. Masonry Workers
13. Hazardous Materials Removal Workers
12. Drywall and Ceiling Tile Installers, and Tapers
11. Carpenters
10. Machinists and Tool and Die Makers
9. Heating, Air Conditioning, and Refrigeration Mechanics and Installers
8. Sheet Metal Workers
7. Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters
6. Electricians
5. Telecommunication Equipment Installers and Repairers
4. Railroad Workers
3. Aircraft and Avionics Equipment Mechanics and Technicians
2. Boilermakers
1. Rotary Drill Operators, Oil and Gas

While some will have no imediate need there are many precusor jobs of simular trades skills required. Most of these are apprentership style learning on the job training with some higher level course work that are certificate or college levels.


This is a reference on IQ so lets be careful with the contents please as not all people fall or follow in the categorizations implied...
http://aristocratsofthesoul.com/average … ethnicity/


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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