Power to gas - the next step

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-20 21:38:51

Lizard King of luf.org suggested looking into the possibility of building a wind-to-gas facility on retired oil derricks in the Gulf of Mexico. He added advice that the problems of dealing with hurricanes have been solved by designing wind turbines so they rotate the blades to avoid damage. The concept sounds similar to feathering propellers in propeller driven aircraft.

In any case, I decided to pursue this idea this evening, and found a (US) federal agency that appears to collect the relevant information:

SearchTerm:GulfOfMexico

https://www.boem.gov/newsroom/ocs-opera … -directory

OCS Operations Field Directory
October - December 2019
(Includes all active and expired leases in Gulf of Mexico OCS)
The Field Directory contains the Field Determinations for all active and expired leases that have been determined producible according to the requirements under 30 CFR 250.115 or 250.116. This list will be updated quarterly. The Notice of New Field Determinations and Changes to Existing Fields contain the actual changes made to the Field Directory. This includes New Producible Leases (NPL's) placed in fields, Field Designation Changes Affecting Active Leases, Expired, Relinquished or Terminated leases and Reassignments of Expired Leases. This report is also available in hard copy from the Gulf of Mexico Region - Public Information Office (phone 1-800-200-GULF).

A proposal to sublease a derrick that is no longer pumping oil or gas would need to include estimates for expected costs and expected income, as well as estimates for risks of loss beyond the expected costs. Risks of excess income seem unlikely and not worth including in a proposal.

Costs I can think of right now include:

Setup phase: (Order of items is preliminary)

1) Securing legal representation to manage sublease process
2) Securing funding to cover startup costs
3) Sublease for some period of time agreeable to all parties
4) Professional services to inspect the site and provide as much information as possible
5) Bailout cost if needed

Post setup phase:

1) Remediation of the derrick, which will have deteriorated over its years of service
2) Ongoing maintenance requirements to prevent further deterioration after remediation
3) Procurement of a wind turbine suitable for mounting on a derrick. This may not be a cookie cutter situation.
4) Procurement of systems to process sea water, fresh water when available, and air, to deliver elements or molecules needed for products
5) Procurement of systems to create products, including but not limited to hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, deuterium, uranium
6) Procurement of storage packages for products, whether for temporary staging for further processing, or for distribution to customers
7) Procurement of transportation capability for each product type
8) Identification of potential customers for each product type
9) Identification of legal obligations (State, Federal, other)
10) Maintenance of all equipment during the period of active operation
11) Reserve funds for disposition of equipment after active operation
12) Other

Income opportunities I can think of right now include:

1) Hydrogen
2) Methane
3) Ammonia
4) Extracted metals
5) Other extracted materials
6) Other

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-21 07:24:22)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-20 22:01:10

While investigating to see if developers are already mounting wind turbines on existing oil derricks, I did not find that, but I DID find an article about development of wind turbines for northern locations where winds are strong, people are few, and icing is a problem.

The article at the link below describes two approaches to dealing with icing ... electrical heating and hot oil piping ...

https://www.eniday.com/en/sparks_en/win … -climates/

SearchTerm:Icing

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-21 07:23:44)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-22 11:51:48

Lizard King of luf.org sent this link about elimination of coal in Spain.

It shows that the leadership of that Nation has accepted the costs of converting to renewable energy, and found ways to ease the change for citizens who are negatively impacted by elimination of coal.

Spain DOES have an advantage over other nations, of a wealth of renewable inputs.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spain-ne … 32261.html

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-22 11:52:54)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-22 11:56:48

Arizona is talking about achieving green power replacement by 2050. That time frame seems about right to me, for an American state of that size.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/bc757ac5-d … un-on.html

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-22 18:47:29

More from Lizard King of luf.org

Regarding offshore oil platforms, they come in two basic types: jack-up and semi-submersible. The jack-ups are small rigs for near shore work up to about 300 feet of depth. They don't attach to the seafloor as much as anchor to it. I think if you put a wind turbine with 120 foot blades on one of these it will just tip over and crash in the ocean. The much larger semi-submersibles are basically big square boats. You might be able to mount a large turbine on that if you had a large enough keel at enough depth to counterbalance it.
Problem: current rental rate, while historically very cheap, runs about $315,000 per DAY. You can't produce anywhere near enough wind power at that price to make any economic sense. Granted, about half the global fleet is "stacked" (various flavors of out of service) but only 12 units were scrapped in 2019. You'd have to offer more than scrap metal value in cash for what would be a derelict piece of equipment to acquire one. And you could only count on growing the fleet by about a dozen units a year.
Can you instead get permits for downstation stanchions near the shore and fly your turbines like kites? Wind gets more reliable with increasing altitude and also stronger. Smaller turbines with high RPM "constant speed props" might be make more sense than 300 foot tall structures that use up so much concrete they might never break even on a CO2 basis. You could dump the electricity product directly into the grid and then buy your product back (in Texas at least) from ERCOT at a more remote location with better rent profile for the methane production. Preferably someplace where you would only need to build a short interconnect to a major natural gas pipeline.

I have already replied that airborne wind turbines have been under consideration in this forum in recent times.

The $300,000 daily rental fee for a platform in the Gulf is a useful data point.

A driller for oil or natural gas has to meet that requirement as a base for their efforts, so income has to cover all the other expenses involved.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-22 18:49:25

Here is another contribution by Lizard King of luf.org ...

The article at the link below describes work being done by an offshoot of Alphabet, to fly wind turbines about 1000 feet over Hawaii ...

The equipment will (apparently) produce 600 Kw from consistent winds found at that altitude.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/en … ncna943451

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-01-22 19:46:58

article has it as :

Arizona's largest public utility is gearing up to close its coal plants, eventually move off natural gas and move to carbon-free technology during the next 30 years to power its customers.

A business that creates power for the consumer changing is a good thing but we are still waiting to see if the rates will drop of go up.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/new … yptr=yahoo

Currently APS, the subsidiary of Pinnacle West Capital Corp. (NYSE: PNW) gets about 50% of its power from non-carbon sources, the biggest of which is Palo Verde Nuclear Generating station, combined with solar and some wind. The short-term plan, one that it will share with Arizona Corporation Commission regulators in April, will be to reach 65% clean energy by 2030 with renewables making up 45% of that total. APS will count on deployment of more battery storage beyond the 850 megawatts of storage it already has planned. The series of moves will likely result in rate increases for customers. The goal is to keep those increases to the cost of living annually

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/new … jects.html

With a 2050 completion the reactors for the other 50% will be quite old and may need to be retired at quite a cost to the customers that the companies serve.

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-23 08:00:36

For SpaceNut re #207

With a 2050 completion the reactors for the other 50% will be quite old and may need to be retired at quite a cost to the customers that the companies serve.

Your pessimism here seems (to me at least) to presume that the human planners managing this agency are failing to plan for the future, by failing to set aside funds for replacement of equipment.

Based upon human history, your pessimism seems likely to be justified.

However, miracles ** could ** happen, and perhaps the human managers have built into the charges they allocate to current customers a reserve fund for equipment replacement.

Alternatively, they could be planning to pay off the loans they have today covering current equipment, and take out new loans for replacement equipment.

In that case, the rate payers may not see a change, depending upon the interest (effective interest in the case of bonds) secured for the new funding.

In short, while your distrust of human nature seems reasonable in general, this specific group of people may be exceeding your expectations.

Certainly, if ** you ** were managing this enterprise, I'm sure you'd do everything you could to plan ahead to avoid shocks to rate payers.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-01-23 11:15:56

Actually the nuclear can only charge the customer for the decommissioning costs and not for a replacement. They may ask the regulator commissions for the state for a rate hike to set aside funds but its got to be approved and can not be enacted without that step.
Here is the company that owns the poles, wires and meter which the electricity comes through. It is spilt into 2 parts for what you are going to pay.
https://www.eversource.com/content/nh/r … ng-my-bill

They itemize it down in the second page.
It is made to look like you are paying the use for each section on purpose.
Notice the different rates for the energy in kwhrs used in each section.
The definitions are on the 3rd page.

That said the only way any of these power creation methods work for you the consomer are when used via off grid and only if you have a surplus to sell as grid tied net metering.

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-24 05:55:11

For SpaceNut re #209

In your role as forum thought leader, you have outdone yourself! Thanks!

I read through a number of pages of the link you provided, and came to understand this is a summary of the regulations under which the managers of the company have to operate in New Hampshire.

These regulations are on TOP of the challenges of trying to operate a capitalist enterprise in a free market.

The managers not ONLY have to deal with competitors for your (customer) energy dollar, they have to deal with regulators who are watching their every move and allowing them to make only a 'reasonable' profit.

However, one GOOD note I found was reassurance that the company has negotiated with regulators to be ABLE to make a reasonable profit.

Since you already know all this, I am writing for forum readers who may not have thought about this much before (as I am an example) or for readers from other countries than the US who may not be familiar with the operation of capitalism in a regulated environment.

Since capitalism is based upon the destructive force of human greed, it is inherently a harmful force which cannot be allowed to run free without regulation.

On the other hand, capitalism is a system that encourages and supports human creativity and energetic pursuit of possible futures, so its power must be encouraged for a culture to not only survive but to prosper.

SearchTerm:CapitalismLikeElectricity

In the present instance, the discussion is about the question of how the managers of the Arizona power system might plan for replacement of the equipment they have in place. I am confident that the actual managers of the Arizona system, as well as those of the New Hampshire company, are thinking hard about how to plan for a return for their investors over the long term, while living within the constraints imposed by their regulators, who represent their customers as a political force, as distinguished from their customers in the purely market sense.

In order to carry this discussion forward, I am hoping to be able to find information about how the managers of the Eversource company are dealing with the constraints they are under to somehow sustain the company AND deliver a modest return to investors.

The managers of Eversource, and those of the Arizona power utility, earn significant salaries precisely BECAUSE they are willing and able to take on the challenges described above.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-24 05:56:58)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-28 09:25:02

The article at the link below reports a potential market opportunity for wind-to-methane production facilities.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/spac … 36094.html

ArianeGroup is going a step further. Europe’s biggest launch company is working on a rocket that aims to be carbon-neutral by running on methane produced from biomass. Dubbed Ariane Next, the heavy-launcher project targets lift off in 2030.

The competition would be biomass producers, NOT fossil fuel producers.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-28 09:27:34)

tahanson43206 · 2020-01-30 07:56:08

The article at the link below reports on a decision by individuals and groups in Germany to produce feedstock for replacement fuels using wind and solar energy.

At one point in the article, someone is quoted to the effect that the "economics are fearsome", but social shaming is apparently driving the effort.

It appears that for some people, choosing the cheapest solution by burning fossil fuel is not socially acceptable, so the purveyors of cheap fossil fuel are having to search for more compliant markets.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/germ … 36583.html

***
For SpaceNut ... I don't know if it is practical to implement this suggestion in the forum, but I'd like to see an Open Source documentation of how the German initiative might be done.

I suspect that every piece of the technology required has been discussed in this forum, and occasionally those discussions have been at some depth.

However, due to limitations of the FluxBB environment, it is difficult to build a coordinated, consistent chain of posts that start with a knowledge goal and then achieve it. A hint of what is possible is shown by GW Johnson's "EducationDoneRight" series.

While the series was originally written in free form, GW Johnson collected the series into a consistent set by adding "EducationDoneRight" to each post.

The result is a collection that can be read by anyone on Earth as long as the Mars Society chooses to maintain this site.

I'd like to see something similar happen in this thread.

Also ... primarily for SpaceNut but potentially of interest to others ... the article introduces an expression I have not seen before: "Power-to-X".

SearchTerm:PowerToX

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/germ … 36583.html

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-01-30 18:22:05

Synfuels are just that and its only until we play with the different chemical processes using the various catalyst, temperature, pressures and a formular that we are trying to duplicate from a starting combination of ingredients. The synthetic kerosene or RP1 is just what we need for less poluting fuel mixes. Which will include gasoline and diesel as well. So any hydrocarbon fuels can be made if you want to afford the costs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel

The Germans did research of all types as oil was a limiting factor wood gas was also used along with other fuel types.
For all hydrocarbon fuels the oxidizer is oxygen....
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-eff … -fuels.htm

Synthetic fuels are classified based on what feedstock was used to create them. By far, the three most prominent processes are Coal-To-Liquids (CTL), Gas-To-Liquids (GTL) and Biomass-To-Liquids (BTL). The widest-used form of synthetic fuel is liquefied coal and its derivatives.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ … tials.aspx

Its not until the price of oil skyrockets that we are even going to look at doing things differently.

SpaceNut · 2020-01-31 22:43:54

The natural power of plants hold the secrets to what man should be able to do with by far less energy than what we use now.
Monitoring intermediates in CO2 conversion to formate by metal catalyst

triethanolamine-photocatalytic-cycle-conversion-carbon-dioxide-ruthenium-carbonyl-complexes-hg.jpg

Its the learning how to do it better that has elluded us.

Plants take in energy from sunlight to transform atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) into sugars and then other materials for growth and metabolic functions. Mimicking this photochemical reaction to efficiently convert CO2 into fuels and industrially important chemicals would support a sustainable energy future and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
To realize such artificial photosynthesis, scientists have been studying catalytic systems composed of multiple components that work together to drive the transfer of photo-induced electrons required to convert CO2 into energy-rich products. One such product is formate, a salt form of formic acid - a naturally occurring organic chemical made of hydrogen and CO2 molecules. The production of formate from CO2 is considered an attractive strategy for the long-term storage of solar renewable energy in chemical form.

SpaceNut · 2020-02-08 17:56:40

http://www.winddaily.com/reports/UK_loo … n_999.html

http://www.biofueldaily.com/reports/Wat … y_999.html

Converting CO2 to methanol is one way to put CO2 to good use. In research published in Science, chemical engineers from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute demonstrated how to make that conversion process from CO2 to methanol more efficient by using a highly effective separation membrane they produced. The researchers assembled a membrane made up of sodium ions and zeolite crystals that was able to carefully and quickly permeate water through small pores - known as water-conduction nanochannels - without losing gas molecules.

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
http://news.rpi.edu/

Producing energy by concentrating sunlight is not entirely new and doesn't require the use of molten salt, which can cause corrosion within the system's pipes. With this energy source, you can do heating, you can do cooking, you can create electricity, you can do water purification.

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, envisions a not-so-distant future where even the most remote parts of the world would have access to clean and renewable energy. His vision wouldn't require a large power grid or expensive technology. Instead, he believes it could be accomplished using simple mirrors, local resources, and the sun.

This is the method that was used for the fuel cell flashlight where water is added to it in order to make it work.
New droplet-based electricity generator: A drop of water generates 140V power, lighting up 100 LED bulbs

a field-effect transistor (FET)-like structure that allows for high energy-conversion efficiency and instantaneous power density increased by thousands times compared to its counterparts without FET-like structure.

droplet-based electricity generator (DEG), instantaneous power density can reach up to 50.1 W/m2

"Our research shows that a drop of 100 microlitres (1 microlitre = one-millionth litre) of water released from a height of 15 cm can generate a voltage of over 140V. And the power generated can light up 100 small LED light bulbs,"

http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-1985-6

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-16 15:42:54

For Louis and SpaceNut ... it's time for another boost to the Power to gas topic

This item comes from Lizard King of Luf.org, who keeps an eye on things here.

https://www.intelligentliving.co/floati … r-islands/

This story dates to the middle of 2019, and it is even possible someone has already posted about it here, but since I can't remember it, perhaps there are others who would appreciate a reprise.

I particularly like the economic justification for production of methane as a replacement for the fossil variety.

A close second is siting of the facilities in offshore locations around the world where sea and solar conditions are optimal for this kind of facility.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-16 15:55:59

Sure we have converted co2 from the sea and air to methane for use but the exhaust from burning will take time to be disolved into the sea and why it is air pollution its that time to becoming a viable source for the process which if everyone is doing this will cause a rise in co2 atmospheric content if we free exhaust it. That said we should be on site recycling it or capturing it for that reason at a minimum. For me the sabetier which makes the methane would also make me clean water for use where I have an iron rich undrinkable water source.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-03 10:12:10

for Louis (primarily) re topic

The article at the link below describes German intentions to convert to a Hydrogen economy.

A key element of their plan should appeal to your demonstrated interests in economics.

The Germans are planning to develop partners in Africa to reduce dependence upon a small group of players in the energy export business.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/germ … 21172.html

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-15 09:14:14

This is a follow up regarding the economics of using renewable energy (wind and solar) to make familiar hydrocarbon molecules.

Lizard King of luf.org suggested looking into the possibility of building a wind-to-gas facility on retired oil derricks in the Gulf of Mexico. He added advice that the problems of dealing with hurricanes have been solved by designing wind turbines so they rotate the blades to avoid damage. The concept sounds similar to feathering propellers in propeller driven aircraft.

In this case, Lizard King forwarded this link ...

https://www.prometheusfuels.com/

The company apparently intends to compete head-to-head with traditional dig-up-the-ground cook-in-a-kettle providers of hydrocarbons.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-07-15 16:47:37

Even thou we have been talking about this for a period of time now; the item we still need is a commercial off the shelf Sabatier reactor to make the fuels with.

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-15 21:08:58

For SpaceNut re Prometheus ...

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07 … r-gasoline

Here is a bit more background on the claims of this startup.

Edit 2020/07/16 ... more from Luf.Org members:

.... uncovered the wikipedia article for Prometheus. Seems they start with ethanol and use a zeolite catalyst for a room temperature process to create longer hydrocarbons.
Prometheus Fuels
The process uses a solution of liquid water and CO2 that is exposed to an electrified copper plate. This catalyz...

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article ...

Both the Luf.Org members participating in this discussion are interested in the company because of the investment potential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Fuels

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-16 12:01:16)

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-16 12:06:18

This is a follow up to post #221

It would be helpful if a member with a background in Chemistry were to comment upon the process described in the Wikipedia article.

The method (if real) could (presumably) work on Mars, if a supply of water can be found to supplement the abundant CO2.

I get the impression that the use of a catalyst (carefully chosen of course) is a factor in any potential savings over the brute force Sabatier method.

(th)

Calliban · 2020-07-16 17:28:30

Power to gas is tolerably efficient if excess electricity is used to produce hydrogen, which is stored under light compression in a gasometer and burned in a gas turbine. If the hydrogen is produced by electrolysis and burned in a CCGT, you can expect to get back about 40% of the electrical energy that went into the electrolysis stack. Waste heat could be used for heating, although doing so may compromise efficiency of electrical recovery.

Power to gas becomes hopelessly inefficient as soon as the hydrogen is used to synthesise heavier carbon based fuels, like methane. If you are using solar energy as the power source, it is actually more efficient to grow C4 biocrops under sunlight. You can then pyrolyse woody biomass to produce methane or methanol, or just burn the biomass as a solid fuel.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-07-16 17:30:55)

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-16 18:33:33

For Calliban re #223

My estimate is 99.999% that you did not read any of the information provided about the Prometheus venture.

The fund of knowledge is constantly changing. Fundamentals of Physics are holding steady, for the most part.

However, there has been a furious effort under way for decades, to try to puzzle out solutions to some of the problems that humans face.

I don't know if the founder of Prometheus has found a way to improve efficiency or not, but he claims to have found a way to use a catalyst to reduce energy consumed in converting CO2 (and other ingredients) into long Carbon chains.

Your knowledge in this field must surely be deep and wide, right up to the minute before the Prometheus founder discovered his catalyst.

At that instant, (if my theory is correct), your knowledge became dated. It remains valid for the vast majority of use cases, but it may no longer be valid for this one.

Since I lack the ability to evaluate the claims of this company myself, I am dependent upon others, but in order for others to help with understanding on the part of people like me, they would have to take in the claims and evaluate them on their merits.

Thanks for taking a whack at the question, but in this case, my estimate is 99.999% that the ball went over the plate, unimpeded.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-07-16 19:47:12

Synthesis of ethanol from non-petroleum carbon resources via syngas (a mixture of H2 and CO) is an important but challenging research target. The current conversion of syngas to ethanol suffers...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14672-8

Ethanol (also called ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol, drinking alcohol, or simply alcohol) is a chemical compound, a simple alcohol with the chemical formula C 2H 6O. Its formula can be also written as CH 3−CH 2−OH or C 2H 5OH (an ethyl group linked to a hydroxyl group), and is often abbreviated as EtOH

main-qimg-0505d22c1de40d324920af0acc2d020e

https://www.globalsyngas.org/syngas-app … s/ethanol/

https://www.cell.com/chem/pdf/S2451-9294(19)30554-6.pdf

https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default … zaTech.pdf

Cu-Co/TiO2 catalyst
Rh-based catalysts
Cu/SiO2 catalysts

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di … TEXT02.pdf
http://tigerprints.clemson.edu/cgi/view … sertations

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#201 2020-01-20 21:38:51

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#202 2020-01-20 22:01:10

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#203 2020-01-22 11:51:48

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#204 2020-01-22 11:56:48

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#205 2020-01-22 18:47:29

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#206 2020-01-22 18:49:25

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#207 2020-01-22 19:46:58

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#208 2020-01-23 08:00:36

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#209 2020-01-23 11:15:56

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#210 2020-01-24 05:55:11

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#211 2020-01-28 09:25:02

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#212 2020-01-30 07:56:08

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#213 2020-01-30 18:22:05

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#214 2020-01-31 22:43:54

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#215 2020-02-08 17:56:40

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#216 2020-02-16 15:42:54

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#217 2020-02-16 15:55:59

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#218 2020-03-03 10:12:10

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#219 2020-07-15 09:14:14

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#220 2020-07-15 16:47:37

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#221 2020-07-15 21:08:58

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#222 2020-07-16 12:06:18

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#223 2020-07-16 17:28:30

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#224 2020-07-16 18:33:33

Re: Power to gas - the next step

#225 2020-07-16 19:47:12

Re: Power to gas - the next step

Board footer