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#26 2006-05-10 14:52:28

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,850

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

I was hoping for a more efficient system than to just blast it with compressed CO2. Especially as we are going to have to spend a lot of energy to compress that CO2 in the first place and the equipment needed to process the gas and to store it weighs heavily on the tight Hab weight budget. And CO2 blasting would need a lot of compressed gas.

ISPP plants will, by their very design, collect and compres large amounts of CO2.  In the main ISPP scenarios, the plant will be largely ideling once the crew arrives. So a supply of compressed gas should not be a problem.

As I have said before, the risk of dust is exaggerated.  There are many environments on earth which generate large amounts of hazardous dusts, as as asbestos, toxic metals, and corrosive agents, which are managed routinely.  The trick is to remove as much as possible before people doff their suits and then vacuum up and filter out material that gets through.

I don't have the amounts here, but the actual amounts of peroxide in Martian dust is actually quite small, certainly not enough to burn the fingers.

Jon

Jon, as we discovered on the Moon the dust gets everywhere but unlike the Moon where our exposure was limited to 3-4 days the fact is we will have astronauts on Mars for a lot more time and we need them to be operating all the time. We cannot afford them to be ill or even worse incapacitated for long periods by something we can plan against. The appollo astronauts described the taste of the dust as gunpowder and complained of eye irritation. Long term exposure and eye irritation can lead to dermatitis and blindness.

Still it is a learning experience and with us going to the Moon we will certainly learn and many lessons learned there will be used when we go to Mars.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#27 2006-05-10 17:15:13

JonClarke
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 2005-07-08
Posts: 173

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Jon, as we discovered on the Moon the dust gets everywhere but unlike the Moon where our exposure was limited to 3-4 days the fact is we will have astronauts on Mars for a lot more time and we need them to be operating all the time. We cannot afford them to be ill or even worse incapacitated for long periods by something we can plan against. The appollo astronauts described the taste of the dust as gunpowder and complained of eye irritation. Long term exposure and eye irritation can lead to dermatitis and blindness.

It may be useful to distinguish between hazard and risk.  A hazard is something that has the potential to cause harm. Risk is the actual probability of harm from a given exposure.  Nothing can be done to change the hazard but the risk can be managed.

With Apollo very little was done to manage the risk, apart from the cre brushing themselves of by hand and (I believe on later missions) by brush.  There was no airlock, no means to vacuum up dust in the LM, no filters designed to remove airborne particulates.  This was acceptable under the circumstances, but will not be acceptable for long trips to the Moon, or on Mars.

Various people on these boards, myself included, have advocated a layered approach to dust management.  Removal of dust by brushes and gas jets (and scraping of boots) before entering the airlock.  Vacuuming and/or wiping suit exteriors in the airlock after pressurisation but before doffing.  Vacuming up any material that is still tracked inside, and relying on filters to remove airborne particulates.  Unless the surface of Mars is going to be regarded has being biologically hazardous these proceedures should be more than adequate.

As I keep pointing out, dust is not a new hazard, but one well understood principles.  Mines, mills, quarrying operations, and metallurgical plants all generate vast amounts of hazardous dust.  Containing the dust from these operations is a major part of on site OHS management.  Some of the dusts are very nasty.  I have worked on various sites where there have been dusts with elevated As, Ni, Cr, CN, U, H2SO3, and asbestos, all kept within safe levels by careful monitoring or management.   The principles should be any different on Mars.

Jon

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#28 2006-05-10 17:53:23

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,850

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Jon, as we discovered on the Moon the dust gets everywhere but unlike the Moon where our exposure was limited to 3-4 days the fact is we will have astronauts on Mars for a lot more time and we need them to be operating all the time. We cannot afford them to be ill or even worse incapacitated for long periods by something we can plan against. The appollo astronauts described the taste of the dust as gunpowder and complained of eye irritation. Long term exposure and eye irritation can lead to dermatitis and blindness.

It may be useful to distinguish between hazard and risk.  A hazard is something that has the potential to cause harm. Risk is the actual probability of harm from a given exposure.  Nothing can be done to change the hazard but the risk can be managed.

With Apollo very little was done to manage the risk, apart from the cre brushing themselves of by hand and (I believe on later missions) by brush.  There was no airlock, no means to vacuum up dust in the LM, no filters designed to remove airborne particulates.  This was acceptable under the circumstances, but will not be acceptable for long trips to the Moon, or on Mars.

Various people on these boards, myself included, have advocated a layered approach to dust management.  Removal of dust by brushes and gas jets (and scraping of boots) before entering the airlock.  Vacuuming and/or wiping suit exteriors in the airlock after pressurisation but before doffing.  Vacuming up any material that is still tracked inside, and relying on filters to remove airborne particulates.  Unless the surface of Mars is going to be regarded has being biologically hazardous these proceedures should be more than adequate.

As I keep pointing out, dust is not a new hazard, but one well understood principles.  Mines, mills, quarrying operations, and metallurgical plants all generate vast amounts of hazardous dust.  Containing the dust from these operations is a major part of on site OHS management.  Some of the dusts are very nasty.  I have worked on various sites where there have been dusts with elevated As, Ni, Cr, CN, U, H2SO3, and asbestos, all kept within safe levels by careful monitoring or management.   The principles should be any different on Mars.

Jon

The Principles you have are for a terrestial enviroment and that is something that Mars or the Moon certainly is not. I agree that a layered method for dealing with the Hazard is what is needed but we keep getting surprised by what we actually find in the properties of the material itself.

What is needed is a safe reliable and quick method of dealing with something that has so far reduced power to rovers and of course disabled a rovers traction to one wheel. And unlike Earth these enviroments are super dry something that cannot be said for Mars or the Moon.

Why do we need a safe reliable and if possible automated method of dealing with this hazard. Simple we are dealing with the most unreliable mission part that of human element and since they are far from Earth and control overview. We have to ensure that as there mission length is long that they do not take the opportunity to "skimp" on procedures after long days and real physical tiredness or just that they consider it boring and that dust that the extraction is 100%.

One problem we have found is that the assumed main way to "dust down" is to use mechanical blowers of the local indigenous atmosphere. Normally this seems a good idea as long as we can get all dust away but we have found that a good percentage of dust remains due to it being positively charged in short static is our enemy and given the opportunity it and its extreme fineness can get into all joints and lubricated areas. This problem builds up and unlike the mechanical side the human factor has problems with sharp ultra small fines in suspension.

Jon when you have been exposed to a degree of contamination the standard method of dealing with the problem is to use a shower to wash the trouble away. On Mars unless we can deal more succesfully with the problem this may also have to be the only way.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#29 2006-05-11 16:48:57

JonClarke
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 2005-07-08
Posts: 173

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

The Principles you have are for a terrestial enviroment and that is something that Mars or the Moon certainly is not. I agree that a layered method for dealing with the Hazard is what is needed but we keep getting surprised by what we actually find in the properties of the material itself.

I would put it differently.  The broad principles of dust management are the same, regardless of planet.  the goal is to keep particulates to a safe level.  This means Exclusion of dust where possible.  Removal of dust that enters environments where you don't want it by simple hygiene and filtration. Using a layered defence approach.  Monitoring of dust levels in the environment . Only the methods will differ, depending on composition and resources.  I would say that the properties of Lunar and Martian particulates are interesting, but hardly surprising.   They are not magical materials of known composition and physics.

What is needed is a safe reliable and quick method of dealing with something that has so far reduced power to rovers and of course disabled a rovers traction to one wheel. And unlike Earth these enviroments are super dry something that cannot be said for Mars or the Moon.

The Moon is super dry, but Mars is no drier than much of the Atacama for example, or the Antarctic oases.  Dry dust is much easier to manage than wet dust, which is sticky.

Why do we need a safe reliable and if possible automated method of dealing with this hazard. Simple we are dealing with the most unreliable mission part that of human element and since they are far from Earth and control overview. We have to ensure that as there mission length is long that they do not take the opportunity to "skimp" on procedures after long days and real physical tiredness or just that they consider it boring and that dust that the extraction is 100%.

That is the challenge for all safety proceedures, not just dust management.  Something that safety managers sometimes forget. But dust control measures are fairly simple and common sense, so should not be hard.

One problem we have found is that the assumed main way to "dust down" is to use mechanical blowers of the local indigenous atmosphere. Normally this seems a good idea as long as we can get all dust away but we have found that a good percentage of dust remains due to it being positively charged in short static is our enemy and given the opportunity it and its extreme fineness can get into all joints and lubricated areas. This problem builds up and unlike the mechanical side the human factor has problems with sharp ultra small fines in suspension.

Where have we found this? I think you are conflating Lunar and Martian dust.  They are different.  On Mars the wind has proved quite efficient at removing dust from the MERs, and comprssed air jets that a Mars mission will have are going to be much more powerful than local winds.  As far as the human system goes our respiratory tracts have evolved to cope with dust, the key is to keep exposures to with predefined limits that don't stress our systems.  This is a well studied field with many strategies available.

Jon when you have been exposed to a degree of contamination the standard method of dealing with the problem is to use a shower to wash the trouble away. On Mars unless we can deal more succesfully with the problem this may also have to be the only way.

As a matter of fact showering is not the primary means of dust management on mine sites, mills, or most other dust prone environments.   If it used as the main means then the dust management strategy has failed.  Dust management on Mars will be much easier than on an industrial site because you are working in enclosed, pressurised environments.

Jon

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#30 2006-05-12 03:57:55

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,850

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

What is needed is a safe reliable and quick method of dealing with something that has so far reduced power to rovers and of course disabled a rovers traction to one wheel. And unlike Earth these enviroments are super dry something that cannot be said for Mars or the Moon.

The Moon is super dry, but Mars is no drier than much of the Atacama for example, or the Antarctic oases.  Dry dust is much easier to manage than wet dust, which is sticky.

Mars is a lot more drier place than the Antartic and Atacama this is due to the surface baking by the undiluted bands of the sun and of course the exceptional amounts of oxides which will leach water out of the air and surfaces. We have seen dust devils scour the rovers on the surface giving there solar panels a clean but this indicates another problem in that this dust which unlike the building sites and factories is a positively charged material. In short it is magnetic and the regular dust storms can have this material in the air for months at a time.

But as I have noted it will not be a mission crippling problem but it will be one that will require constant attention and may well be one of an astronauts core duties. Cleaning the insides of the habitats regularily. We will have it enter the habitats and it will enter the human astronauts. We just have to reduce this from being a problem and ensure that those diseases of the body that long term exposure to fine dust and especially the effects Mars and Moon dusts will have on the body cannot get a hold.

One problem we have found is that the main way to "dust down" is to use mechanical blowers of the local indigenous atmosphere. Normally this seems a good idea as long as we can get all dust away but we have found that a good percentage of dust remains due to it being positively charged in short static is our enemy and given the opportunity it and its extreme fineness can get into all joints and lubricated areas. This problem builds up and unlike the mechanical side the human factor has problems with sharp ultra small fines in suspension

Where have we found this? I think you are conflating Lunar and Martian dust. They are different. On Mars the wind has proved quite efficient at removing dust from the MERs, and compressed air jets that a Mars mission will have are going to be much more powerful than local winds. As far as the human system goes our respiratory tracts have evolved to cope with dust, the key is to keep exposures to with predefined limits that don't stress our systems. This is a well studied field with many strategies available.

We have found that Mars dust like the Moons is charged positivly this is the effect the unneutered sun has had on the planet. Mars dust unlike the Moon has had weathering but it is still being bombarded by the ultra violet region of the suns output and like the Moon this causes the fine particulates to pick up a charge. A Martian dust devil is a situation where the wind picks these particulates up and since they are travelling at 100+ mph they scour anything they hit this is what is causing the weathering on Mars and it is this that cleaned the solar array of the rovers they where scoured clean by a dust devil. Another point is that what we have recorded is that surprisingly to scientists is that dust devils have exceeded 4000 volts a meter in charge and with some of these things hundreds of meters across and 20 miles high they can deliver a fatal blow. We will obviously not be interested in using this method to clean ourselves  smile

It is NASA which has the problems with this elements and it is why they have financed the Nakagawa's project dust to see what is the best way to deal with this problem and potential hazard. Nasa is also concerned that a humans respiratory tract is designed to deal with Earth like conditions and that Mars and especially Moon dust reacts more like long term exposure to Volcanic dust. Short term is ok but long term causes health problems.

Time to get the pledge and the duster out and do the regular hab cleaning. tongue


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#31 2006-05-12 18:04:28

JonClarke
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 2005-07-08
Posts: 173

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Mars is a lot more drier place than the Antartic and Atacama this is due to the surface baking by the undiluted bands of the sun and of course the exceptional amounts of oxides which will leach water out of the air and surfaces. We have seen dust devils scour the rovers on the surface giving there solar panels a clean but this indicates another problem in that this dust which unlike the building sites and factories is a positively charged material. In short it is magnetic and the regular dust storms can have this material in the air for months at a time.

Actually, modelling suggests that large area sof Mars have more moisture than the Atacama or the dry valleys of the Antartic. Much or the atmosphere is close to the dew point. There are also frosts, radiation fogs, and a wide range of surface textures indicating mositure exchange between the atmosphere and surface.

But as I have noted it will not be a mission crippling problem but it will be one that will require constant attention and may well be one of an astronauts core duties. Cleaning the insides of the habitats regularily. We will have it enter the habitats and it will enter the human astronauts. We just have to reduce this from being a problem and ensure that those diseases of the body that long term exposure to fine dust and especially the effects Mars and Moon dusts will have on the body cannot get a hold.

We have to clearn regular on earth.  A house-spuse's work is never done!  Why should Mars and and the Moon be different?  The big difference is that the amount of mineral dust brought in will be miniscule.

We have found that Mars dust like the Moons is charged positivly this is the effect the unneutered sun has had on the planet. Mars dust unlike the Moon has had weathering but it is still being bombarded by the ultra violet region of the suns output and like the Moon this causes the fine particulates to pick up a charge. A Martian dust devil is a situation where the wind picks these particulates up and since they are travelling at 100+ mph they scour anything they hit this is what is causing the weathering on Mars and it is this that cleaned the solar array of the rovers they where scoured clean by a dust devil. Another point is that what we have recorded is that surprisingly to scientists is that dust devils have exceeded 4000 volts a meter in charge and with some of these things hundreds of meters across and 20 miles high they can deliver a fatal blow. We will obviously not be interested in using this method to clean ourselves  smile

My understanding, from a lecture by Steve Squyres, is that it is not dust devils than have cleaned the rovers, but wind gusts.

I don't think voltage differences have been measured on Mars.  Values of 4000v/m has been modelled, but the complete lack of problems with charging experienced by the Vikings or the MERS over many years of operation suggest that the models have be excessive.

It is NASA which has the problems with this elements and it is why they have financed the Nakagawa's project dust to see what is the best way to deal with this problem and potential hazard. Nasa is also concerned that a humans respiratory tract is designed to deal with Earth like conditions and that Mars and especially Moon dust reacts more like long term exposure to Volcanic dust. Short term is ok but long term causes health problems.

Of course these hazards need to be investigated and a one of many reasons why MSR is a good idea.   But there is one thing to identify that there is a hazard, another to expland it into a show stopper.  It's just particulate mineral matter and not been particularly hazardous mineral mix at that.  Not like in a uranium or asbestos mine, or a mine where the main ores occur as arsenides, rather than sulphides, all familiar problems on earth.  Perhaps it is because space engineers are acustomed to working in ultraclean conditions.  The idea of their precious spacecraft getting dirty disturbs them.  However for most engineers such ultracleanliness is not an option.  To them particulates are a familiar and manageable problem.  Even volcanic dust is not a problem provided simple precautions are taken.

Remember the actual amounts of dust likely to be encountered on Mars are small.  Even in a dust storm the suspended particulates are no denser than a city smog on earth.  With simple external removal with jets, brushes and vacuum cleaners you would not havemore than a few grams getting in each EVA, maybe.  With basic house keeping and air filters I don't see how this can be a problem.  Even if an emergency entry brings in a few hundred grams of of dirt this is not doing to be the end of the world, it will be a matter for dustpan and broom, the vacuum cleaner and maybe a moist rag.

Time to get the pledge and the duster out and do the regular hab cleaning. tongue

Cleanliness is next to Godliness they say.  I wish I could persaude my youngest daughter of this.....

Jon

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#32 2006-05-13 15:28:46

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,850

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Mars is a lot more drier place than the Antartic and Atacama this is due to the surface baking by the undiluted bands of the sun and of course the exceptional amounts of oxides which will leach water out of the air and surfaces. We have seen dust devils scour the rovers on the surface giving there solar panels a clean but this indicates another problem in that this dust which unlike the building sites and factories is a positively charged material. In short it is magnetic and the regular dust storms can have this material in the air for months at a time.

Actually, modelling suggests that large area sof Mars have more moisture than the Atacama or the dry valleys of the Antartic. Much or the atmosphere is close to the dew point. There are also frosts, radiation fogs, and a wide range of surface textures indicating mositure exchange between the atmosphere and surface.

Mars geology does appear to be hydrogen compound rich and to have geology that should have water present but not in the atmosphere and upper surface. It appears that the water present in the atmosphere only makes 0.03% of the volume.

But as I have noted it will not be a mission crippling problem but it will be one that will require constant attention and may well be one of an astronauts core duties. Cleaning the insides of the habitats regularily. We will have it enter the habitats and it will enter the human astronauts. We just have to reduce this from being a problem and ensure that those diseases of the body that long term exposure to fine dust and especially the effects Mars and Moon dusts will have on the body cannot get a hold.

We have to clearn regular on earth.  A house-spuse's work is never done!  Why should Mars and and the Moon be different?  The big difference is that the amount of mineral dust brought in will be miniscule.

Again that relies on our understanding of the situation and that procedures after the long term use and build up work. Certainly the fineness of the compunds on both locations will ensure that they are present.

We have found that Mars dust like the Moons is charged positivly this is the effect the unneutered sun has had on the planet. Mars dust unlike the Moon has had weathering but it is still being bombarded by the ultra violet region of the suns output and like the Moon this causes the fine particulates to pick up a charge. A Martian dust devil is a situation where the wind picks these particulates up and since they are travelling at 100+ mph they scour anything they hit this is what is causing the weathering on Mars and it is this that cleaned the solar array of the rovers they where scoured clean by a dust devil. Another point is that what we have recorded is that surprisingly to scientists is that dust devils have exceeded 4000 volts a meter in charge and with some of these things hundreds of meters across and 20 miles high they can deliver a fatal blow. We will obviously not be interested in using this method to clean ourselves  smile

My understanding, from a lecture by Steve Squyres, is that it is not dust devils than have cleaned the rovers, but wind gusts.

According to NASA the reason the dust was removed off the rovers and especially Opportunity is considered to be the effect of dust devils forming at the end of the day. This is was benefited by the fact opportunity spent a lot of its time tilted but it was according to NASA's scientists the dust devils that cleared the panels.

I don't think voltage differences have been measured on Mars.  Values of 4000v/m has been modelled, but the complete lack of problems with charging experienced by the Vikings or the MERS over many years of operation suggest that the models have be excessive.

No we have only found clues and these we learned on Earth but our models are likely to be very very correct and that is a lot of voltage in a dust storm. Actually theoretically some Martian dust devils could well be carrying more electricity than the whole of the USA produced in a year.

NASA: The Case For Martian Dust Devils

It is NASA which has the problems with this elements and it is why they have financed the Nakagawa's project dust to see what is the best way to deal with this problem and potential hazard. Nasa is also concerned that a humans respiratory tract is designed to deal with Earth like conditions and that Mars and especially Moon dust reacts more like long term exposure to Volcanic dust. Short term is ok but long term causes health problems.

Of course these hazards need to be investigated and a one of many reasons why MSR is a good idea.   But there is one thing to identify that there is a hazard, another to expland it into a show stopper.  It's just particulate mineral matter and not been particularly hazardous mineral mix at that.  Not like in a uranium or asbestos mine, or a mine where the main ores occur as arsenides, rather than sulphides, all familiar problems on earth.  Perhaps it is because space engineers are acustomed to working in ultraclean conditions.  The idea of their precious spacecraft getting dirty disturbs them.  However for most engineers such ultracleanliness is not an option.  To them particulates are a familiar and manageable problem.  Even volcanic dust is not a problem provided simple precautions are taken.

Remember the actual amounts of dust likely to be encountered on Mars are small.  Even in a dust storm the suspended particulates are no denser than a city smog on earth.  With simple external removal with jets, brushes and vacuum cleaners you would not havemore than a few grams getting in each EVA, maybe.  With basic house keeping and air filters I don't see how this can be a problem.  Even if an emergency entry brings in a few hundred grams of of dirt this is not doing to be the end of the world, it will be a matter for dustpan and broom, the vacuum cleaner and maybe a moist rag.

You forget that a Martian dust storm will in effect enter our Habitats and of course cause us not only visibility difficulties so effecting our solar panels it also will effect communications and will be just a complete hassle. It will strip paint of our modules like a sand blaster and will of course get into everything. The power of these storms is incredible they can raise the ambient tempature of Mars by 30 degrees. This is incredible it just shows you how powerful they are.

Time to get the pledge and the duster out and do the regular hab cleaning. tongue

Cleanliness is next to Godliness they say.  I wish I could persaude my youngest daughter of this.....

Jon

If you can persuade your daughter to clean her room up your next much easier jobs is to solve world hunger and the ability to travel faster than light.  lol


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#33 2006-05-13 21:38:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,402

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

I agree that we should air on the side of caution, in that until we have samples from mars and long term duration of exposure to lunar soils to answer our many questions. Making sure that our astronauts are not harmed is very important to us all. I know that I want to go when possible and if not myself I would hope that my children may still get the chance. This will not happen though if there are problems with exposure.

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#34 2006-05-14 01:48:50

JonClarke
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 2005-07-08
Posts: 173

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Mars geology does appear to be hydrogen compound rich and to have geology that should have water present but not in the atmosphere and upper surface. It appears that the water present in the atmosphere only makes 0.03% of the volume.

There are hydrated sulphate salts, and abundant hydrogen especially at higher latitudes.  Plus globally abundant halides and bromides in the surfical materials and locally abundant clays and goethite.  And then there is the micromorphology - tafoni, pachydermal weathering, soil crusts.  All point to ongoing role of moisture in the surface processes.  Mcuh as occurs in the Atacama and the dry valleys.

Figures like "the water present in the atmosphere only makes 0.03% of the volume" while correct are misleading.  The Martian atmosphere is close to due point for the water vapour it has, as evidenced by the direct detection of surface frost by Viking 2 and Opportunity and imaging by many missions of radiation fogs.  This moisture is exchanged with the Martian soil on a seaosn basis, much as occurs in the driest parts of the Atacama and Antarctica.

Anyway we are moving away from the topic.  If you want to discuss the point about the role of water in Martian geomorphology and regolith processes, I suggest you start another thread or use one of the relevant existing ones.

Again that relies on our understanding of the situation and that procedures after the long term use and build up work. Certainly the fineness of the compunds on both locations will ensure that they are present.

No it does not require long term work to do this.  We know on earth that we need to clean up any dirt that gets tracked it and that air needs to be filtered and that both these methods will keep particulates within safe limits.   Why would Mars (and the Moon) be different?.  What work is needed is to more accurately parameterise the limits, but whatever expsoure limits are set they will be on the conservative side anyway, and therefore comparable to those for the worst terrestrial mineral dusts - such as asbestos.

According to NASA the reason the dust was removed off the rovers and especially Opportunity is considered to be the effect of dust devils forming at the end of the day. This is was benefited by the fact opportunity spent a lot of its time tilted but it was according to NASA's scientists the dust devils that cleared the panels.

Squyres pointed out, at Gusev the dust devils do not occur in the hills, they are a plains phenomenon.  But cleaning events have continued.  Opportunity has been cleaned regularly as well, and few if any dust devils have been imaged at Meridiani.  But again, this is a secondary issue, beyond noting that in some areeas of Mars natural processes do seem to keep equipment periodically clean of dust.  Note that both Gusev and Meridiani are in tradiation dark areas of Mars which seem to be more wind swept than the light areas where Vkinigs 1 & 2 and Pathfinder landed (and where initial pessimistic figures for dust accumulation were derived).

No we have only found clues and these we learned on Earth but our models are likely to be very very correct and that is a lot of voltage in a dust storm. Actually theoretically some Martian dust devils could well be carrying more electricity than the whole of the USA produced in a year.

From a practical point of view what matters is that the voltages that were generated do not seem be be damaging.  The MERS and Viking collected well over a decade of experience on the Martian surface and none experienced any adverse effects from electrical discharges.  In fact they have no experienced any discharges at all.

You forget that a Martian dust storm will in effect enter our Habitats and of course cause us not only visibility difficulties so effecting our solar panels it also will effect communications and will be just a complete hassle. It will strip paint of our modules like a sand blaster and will of course get into everything. The power of these storms is incredible they can raise the ambient tempature of Mars by 30 degrees. This is incredible it just shows you how powerful they are.

How will the dust storm enter a pressurised habitat? It's both airtight and there is a positive pressure gradient.  Also note that dust loading in Martian dust storms is like a moderate terrestrial city smog, annoying but not particular severe.  Nothing like a bad terrestrial. The Vikings and MERs have experienced several and have not been noticably sand blasted, at least at present, sand does not get entrained very often on Mars.  This not mean that there may not be some erosion and there will certainly be a cumulative effect, it simply that the problem does not seem to be either immediate or critical on the time scale of guman and robotic missions.

If you can persuade your daughter to clean her room up your next much easier jobs is to solve world hunger and the ability to travel faster than light.  lol

You are probably right!  I will get them working on that right away!  lol

Cheers!

Jon

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#35 2007-06-27 20:59:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,402

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Huge Dust Storm Breaks Out on Mars blocking sunlight and prompting Mars mission managers to keep a close eye on it they have been watching this storm for about six days. The storm has grown in size and is lifting up dust about 560 miles (900 KM) east of Opportunity, which is presently at Meridiani Planum.

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#36 2019-12-30 15:44:28

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 225

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

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#37 2019-12-30 16:20:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,402

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

Nice refreshing question as it ties in with global warming for the ocean rising and yet what we are seeing is not dust but fires...
If lowering of the ocean is what it takes then plumb the water to each household for waste removal and stop using fresh drinking water for the purpose.

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#38 2019-12-31 11:03:21

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 225

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

If lowering of the ocean is what it takes then plumb the water to each household for waste removal and stop using fresh drinking water for the purpose.

Not that I cannot understand the statement but how it ties to dust storm.

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#39 2019-12-31 15:37:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,402

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

The fresh water is then used to keep the green grass growing, which in turn lessens the dust storms, as we are not flushing it...but that is for earth not so much moon or mars...

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#40 2020-01-20 19:17:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,402

Re: Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

While the dust is an issue the ESA opens oxygen plant - making air out of moondust

"Being able to acquire oxygen from resources found on the Moon would obviously be hugely useful for future lunar settlers, both for breathing and in the local production of rocket fuel." Samples returned from the lunar surface confirm that lunar regolith is made up of 40-45% percent oxygen by weight, its single most abundant element. But this oxygen is bound up chemically as oxides in the form of minerals or glass, so is unavailable for immediate use.

ESTEC's oxygen extraction is taking place using a method called molten salt electrolysis, involving placing regolith in a metal basket with molten calcium chloride salt to serve as an electrolyte, heated to 950 C. At this temperature the regolith remains solid.

But passing a current through it causes the oxygen to be extracted from the regolith and migrate across the salt to be collected at an anode. As a bonus this process also converts the regolith into usable metal alloys.

Sounds to me that the process would work on mars as well...

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