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SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

Look again as its is higher as there are 2 compressor units in the diagram and its the rating given for 1 hr run time so mars days are 25 hrs long so thats going to come in around 300 kwhrs. The there is more energy needed to cool the co2 in 2 stages at another 25 kwhr sun fir the stages and more if you are going to break the co2 into co and o2. which of course needs more energy for liquification...

The atmosphere of Mars is the layer of gases surrounding Mars. The atmospheric pressure on the Martian surface averages 600 pascals (0.087 psi), about 0.6% of Earth's mean sea level pressure of 101.3 kilopascals (14.69 psi)...

I am wondering what temperature the chamber would need to be raised to for a mars direct pressure conversion, since we need a range of psi of 50 to 75 for the experiments being done on earth for the unit to work. We also know that the catalyst and temperature to purity of the conversion is also another area still being worked on.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

updating topic

The freezing of co2 has been meantioned before in
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6826&p=12 at post 278
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7316&p=2 at post 36

https://isru.nasa.gov/CarbonDioxideOxygen.html

It is part of the MARCO POLO/Mars ISRU Pathfinder Project.

https://sciences.ucf.edu/class/wp-conte … o-JoAE.pdf

This is the webview https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/vie … esting.doc

http://canada.marssociety.org/winnipeg/ … esting.doc

Sabatier test stand
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/earthan … 1422583549

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 001808.pdf
Mars Atmospheric Capture [and Processing]

For SpaceNut re #721 and references to scroll pump ...

The link you provided to the NASA site came up with a powerpoint dated 2017, with a number of references to work by Dr. Zubrin and associates.

The technology of a "scroll pump" is new to me.  Someone might be interested in the page at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

In the NASA powerpoint, only two stages of compression are shown, moving from Mars atmosphere to input to the Sabatier reaction.

(th)

NASA SBIR - 1998 (abstract only): Mars Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Freezer

NASA Technical Report Server (NTRS) - 2012: Mars In Situ Resource Utilization Technology Evaluation

We have examined the technologies required to enable Mars In-Situ Resource Utilization
(ISRU) because our understanding of Mars resources has changed significantly in the last
five years as a result of recent robotic missions to the red planet. Two major developments,
(1) confirmation of the presence of near-surface water in the form of ice in very large
amounts at high latitudes by the Phoenix Lander and (2) the likely existence of water at
lower latitudes in the form of hydrates or ice in the top one meter of the regolith, have the
potential to change ISRU technology selection. A brief technology assessment was performed
for the most promising Mars atmospheric gas processing techniques: Reverse Water Gas
Shift (RWGS) and Methanation (aka Sabatier), as well as an overview of soil processing
technology to extract water from Martian soil.

NASA NTRS - 2011: Evaluation of Mars CO2 Capture and Gas Separation Technologies

NASA NTRS - 2017 (slides): The Technology and Future of In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

repost

This is a good description of what is required:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3484/1

The Exytron approach at Augsburg might be relevant:

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2 … -and-reuse

They do seem to have an installed pilot project:

https://exytron.online/en/news/

It would obviously need scaling up.

This Danish biogas planet has successfully experimented with a methanation plant...but again, looks like they need to scale that up.

https://www.lemvigbiogas.com/MeGa-stoREfinalreport.pdf

But this might be where Space X would go for manufacture or consultancy advice for their own manufacture.

Climateworks is doing this same thing

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

Another means to gain fuel is through the Mars In-Situ Resource Utilization Based on the Reverse Water Gas Shift: Experiments and Mission Applications

A COMPARISON OF IN SITU RESOURCE UTILIZATION OPTIONS FOR THE FIRST HUMAN MARS MISSIONS

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 036570.pdf
Sabatier Reactor System Integration with Microwave Plasma Methane Pyrolysis Post-Processor for Closed-Loop Hydrogen Recovery

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 016419.pdf
Compact and Lightweight Sabatier Reactor for Carbon Dioxide Reduction

Of course the energy requirement is lower if, IF we find Water and Ice by the ton's with ground proof

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?

Combating carbon footprint: Novel reactor system converts carbon dioxide into usable fuel

This DMR design helped us reduce temperature increments by about 300 degrees compared to the traditional packed bed reactor..