New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#126 2018-12-30 21:25:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Federal judge in Texas Reed O'Connor in Fort Worth clears the way for appeal of ruling against health law as "many everyday Americans would ... face great uncertainty" if that ruling were immediately put into effect, O'Connor issued a stay to allow for appeals.

Offline

#127 2019-01-05 20:50:25

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Just another example of how healthcare, insurance system is broken....
5 jobs and health insurance: One couple's struggle to pay off $12K in medical bills

so much that they need a spreadsheet to track what they owe to hospitals and doctors. “I’m on these payment arrangements that are killing us with  negotiating payoff plans that now total $700 a month. With both the medical payment plans and premiums are almost as much as their $1,300 monthly mortgage.

The family is part of a struggling group: middle-class folks who have followed the rules and paid for employer-based medical insurance, only to find that soaring health care costs — combined with high deductibles, high copayments and surprise medical bills — leave them vulnerable.

Offline

#128 2019-06-16 21:14:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Trump Wants to Neutralize Democrats on Health Care. Republicans Say Let It Go.

Since he announced his previous run four years ago, Mr. Trump has promised to replace President Barack Obama’s health care law with “something terrific” that costs less and covers more without ever actually producing such a plan.

Now he is vowing to issue the plan within a month or two, reviving a campaign promise with broad consequences for next year’s contest. If he follows through, it could help shape a presidential race that Democrats would like to focus largely on health care.

Offline

#129 2019-06-24 18:43:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

I think transparency of the bill is already on the books but its the insurance deals that are not for the discounts that are part of the inflation...ao what did we get by The executive order will follow earlier administration actions to improve the transparency of health pricing data that would pressure insurers, doctors and other providers to disclose more information about health-care prices.

I want the pay games to end...

Offline

#130 2019-07-08 19:15:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Was surprised as It often happens when searching for a topic to find Why the U.S. Needs Universal Health Care...Now! - Intelligent debate wanted here circa 2003

Offline

#131 2019-09-28 19:29:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

kbd512 wrote:

GW,

Private health care is a for-profit industry, so yes, the Democrats' attempts to turn that into a state-run monopoly is socialism.  If their ultimate goal is not to turn America into another Venezuela, then it's not at all apparent to me from looking at the places where they have total control of the government- California, for example.  Thus far, our own health care model has produced more innovation than the rest of the world combined.  When medical advances are made, they're most likely made here in America or because of American investment.  That means that these benefits come because of our current health care model, rather than in spite of it.  The notion that our health care must be the same for everyone, everywhere, and at all times leads to absurdly bad outcomes for everyone.

If you don't think that's true, then go visit a VA clinic, because that's "government run health care".  They're so bad at providing any health care that President Trump signed a bill allowing veterans to get treatment from private providers, to be paid for by our government.  That is NOT the type of health care I want and if you ever experienced it for yourself, it wouldn't be the type of health you'd want, either.  Since I disagree with torturing people, I would not even send ISIS fighters to our VA.  That's how little I think of government run health care.

Tricare Cost (FCR) Health insurance is a type of insurance that fully or partially covers an individual's medical and surgical expenses. It's an agreement between you and your insurance company, where for an annual premium, the insurer pays for your hospitalization and other medical expenses. In addition to the deductible, you have to pay 25 percent of what Tricare says the medical service should cost. If you want to find out what the Tricare allowable cost is for a particular medical procedure, visit the Tricare Costs page. Medical providers under Tricare Standard can be broken into two groups:

https://tricare.mil/cost
https://tricare.mil/Costs/HealthPlanCosts
https://www.military.com/benefits/trica … edule.html

Offline

#132 2019-09-28 19:31:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

GW Johnson wrote:

Kbd512:

"Private health care is a for-profit industry, so yes, the Democrats' attempts to turn that into a state-run monopoly is socialism."  No sir, it is not!  Not by the dictionary definition!  Period!  Go look it up for yourself. 

Whether the government-run system some (but not all) democrats espouse is something we really want to do is a matter of debate.  The "socialism" name-calling that you resort to,  stands directly in the way of getting that debate done.  You need to face up to that.  Is that REALLY what you want to do?  I hope not.

My own father-in-law was a VA-only sort of government dependent.  While there were flaws in the care he received,  by and large,  his care was actually adequate.  My wife and I lived through all that,  in very great detail.  For decades.  Those flaws derive less from "government-run",  and more from "good enough for government work".  There is a VERY fundamental difference between the two. 

My own health care comes from Medicare Parts A and B and D,  plus a privately-obtained supplement that I pay for.  Neither does the whole job.  But,  between what the government does,  and what the supplement does,  I have never in all my life had better or more cost-effective health care!  Somehow or another,  THAT is the model we all might really want. 

What is so hard to understand about that,  unless your political glasses are too cloudy to see it for what it really is?

GW

Offline

#133 2019-09-29 10:53:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Oldfart1939 wrote:

As a few points on entirely different subject: Health care and the VA Hospitals. My last Academic job, just before becoming a business entrepreneur, I had a position as Research Associate at Stanford Medical School, and was doing research IN the VA Hospital in Palo Alto. I was there for a year, and the level of care I observed was just OK, but the care was principally provided by Interns and Residents; there was adequate supervision by University Faculty, but even in 1976, the work overload was hideously apparrant. It has only gotten worse as time passed. Thankfully I saw enough, and will never subject myself to that sort of care; there are other options.
So much for government provided health care. There were waiting lists even then, but the primary recipients were still W.W. II veterans. They deserved better. All of our vets deserve better, because they (we!) have paid a price for it.

Offline

#134 2019-10-03 21:07:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Trump did it as he signs executive order on Medicare, says he won't let Democrats steal your health care with  the “Medicare for All” simply the order reduces Medicare Advantage premiums and allows it to cover more a broader range of services.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential … s-seniors/

This sounds like an entitlement disclaimer

This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

Offline

#135 2019-10-26 18:52:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

There is some truth and falsehood in Sanders Misleads on Family Health Care Costs

Sen. Bernie Sanders continues to make the misleading claim that “the average family of four spends $28,000 a year on health care.” That’s the projected average cost for employer-sponsored health insurance for “typical” families of that size, but the employee paid about 44% of that total amount in 2018, while the employer paid the other 56%.

when you add in the premiums for the dental, eyes, ears and other such policies for your care its will rise very quickly to the value with the percentages being a mix of lower and higher for each side of the coin.

The other part of this is when it is used just how much will you pay out if you have chronic illness or a desease that is kept in check by medications.

Deductibles are another issue as rate paying for fees charged that are over the allowable for the service....

Offline

#136 2019-12-18 21:30:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Air pollution occurs when harmful or excessive quantities of substances including gases, particulates, and biological molecules are introduced into Earth's atmosphere. It may cause diseases, allergies and even death to humans; it may also cause harm to other living organisms such as animals and food crops, and may damage the natural or built environment. Both human activity and natural processes can generate air pollution but there now is a link to Depression suicide air pollution

Offline

#137 2019-12-20 21:20:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Offline

#138 2019-12-28 17:45:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Whether this saves life now or in the future its going to do something Age limit now 21 across US for cigarettes, tobacco products

Offline

#139 2020-01-04 20:02:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Best and Worst States for Healthcare Costs

So why should there be any difference?

Offline

#140 2020-03-26 15:18:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

The coronavirus is stressing the Insurance companies, the doctors & nurses, Hospitals, product suppliers and now its attacking the individual as a result of coverage or lack there of since mostly dismanteling a means to get healthcare.
People that have survive are getting life time blss to pay as a result of this failing system.
This state (NC) rejected Medicaid expansion. Its uninsured residents now stare down a pandemic.
Congress' coronavirus legislation thus far has made testing free but not your care once found to be positive and getting sicker from the virus.
A gut response to this pandemic would be for Trump administration to open the Affordable Care Act's health insurance registration window, a number of states have begun to explore options to address private health insurance and Medicaid programs, which provide coverage to low-income Americans.

Its sort of hard to protect our nation when the service members are getting sick as well.
Coronavirus outbreak diverts Navy aircraft carrier to Guam, all 5,000 aboard to be tested

Offline

#141 2020-03-27 07:37:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

repost
Thanks

RoberDyck wrote:

First: some hard-core Conservatives in the US consider Social Security to be an "entitlement". It isn't. It's insurance that you paid for with each and every deduction from your paycheque. The same people consider Medicare to be an "entitlement"; again it isn't. Again, you paid for it with each and every paycheque. There's a major difference between "entitlements" vs insurance that you bought and paid for with your own hard-earned money.

As for healthcare, I live in Canada. Here healthcare is *NOT* free. Each province pays for it differently, but in the largest provinces (population) there's a premium. So it's actually a health insurance system. Mandatory government health insurance is considered basic minimum. Private insurance companies cannot compete with government health insurance, that would be illegal. But private insurance can provide coverage for things government insurance does not. It's common for employers to provide a benefits package that provides insurance for those things the government plan does not.

The big thing is government health insurance dictates to hospitals and medical clinics what they get paid. For a single visit from a patient for his/her annual check-up, there's a fixed fee. For a chest X-ray, a different fixed fee. Coronary bypass surgery: a fixed fee. Etc. Result is hospitals, medical clinics, and independent doctor's offices get paid the same amount for the same for the same procedure. There are government-owned hospitals, but there are also corporate-owned hospitals. Government-owned clinics, and corporate clinics. Doctor offices are owned by the doctor. But the real point is costs are a hell of a lot lower.

Some politicians in the US claim that a mixed health insurance system sounds good. The problem with that is it lets corporate hospitals and medical clinics continue to gouge patients.

In 1995 I worked in a suburb of Richmond Virginia. We were contractors. One co-worker just came off a contract with a hospital. He told me when a patient has more than one insurance policy, the hospital charges each policy the absolute maximum the policy allows. Even if the total adds up to more than the hospital bill. That's completely illegal (was at the time he told me this), but they do it. He knows because *HE* was the one who wrote the computer billing software to do it. He did so because the president of the hospital ordered him to do so.

Right now the US does *NOT* have free-market healthcare. The US has corporate healthcare.

Here's an example: Yea, fictional, but it makes the point...
vmkdzdbbeyh41.jpg

you have shown how distorted the insurance game has become.
A plan does not select body parts to ignore as most healthcare isurance are allowed to do currently.
That said you need a seperate dental, eye, hearing ect.. for how they are gaming for your money.
They do not care about you the customer as they make up rules much like the banks did for how they will payout for each event in how you use it..

Offline

#142 2020-04-03 17:43:57

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Administration says it will reimburse hospitals for treating uninsured coronavirus patients using funds allocated in a the recent relief package passed by Congress.

Azar said the funds would be sent to providers through the same mechanism used for testing. He also said that providers would be forbidden from balance billing the uninsured as a condition for receiving the reimbursements and would be reimbursed at Medicare rates.

We knew that insurance was critical for all to have....

McConnell: Health care tops list for next virus aid bill and with that we should also work on these infrastructure and rural broadband access as we will need to add jobs for many and we will need to upgrade tele-communications as well.

Offline

#143 2020-04-06 18:52:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

There could be a possibility that 35 million Americans could lose health insurance amid mass layoffs

The  astonishing projection from Health Management Associates underscores the pandemic's ripple effects from the economy into health care. The group said that the number of uninsured Americans could spike to 40 million people, a level unseen since before the Affordable Care Act became law in 2010.
The study also estimated 23 million Americans could enroll in Medicaid, ensuring many would still receive insurance through other means. But 5 million Americans might still wind up uninsured.

There are going to alot of unpaid bills and additional ones for the already dead as well....

This is why pay in insurance systems do not work...

Offline

#144 2020-04-07 09:30:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Part of studies is that we use controls to be able to compare Apples to Apples information to be sure we are getting the desired results and when we do that we take risk assessments and give funds accordingly to putting people into those trials. We set up malpractice insurance in case we kill the people ect...

Trump’s Aggressive Advocacy of Malaria Drug for Treating Coronavirus Divides Medical Community
‘What do you have to lose?’: Inside Trump’s embrace of a risky drug against coronavirus
'We just don't know': Despite doubts, some NJ doctors are using malaria drug out of desperation

Not a doctor, not taking risk assessment, not insuring those that are given it ect...not comparing effectiveness not caring if you die or die from malpractice. and if you do you risk death if given in the incorrect ammounts, death if its does not work. and death if you stay the course.

Let the doctors do the work and get it done...as they do all of those things for the patient as its the license and life that they do as a profession.

hydroxychloroquine is a  malaria drug and while its off use is for auto immune to treat Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis disease so its not a viral medication. Its only hoped to correct the immune response to the virus toll on the body as thats how it is being used for the off uses.

azithromycin is a treatment for lung infections that are both viral and bacterial and is taken for a 7 -10 day cycle to aid the immune system.

The two drugs must be given early in the response to getting the virus along with all other treatments for the fevers that accompany the virus onset. If you did not get started right away you still end up on a ventilator as seen in the NJ Doctors just medicating patients without any prior studies of combination treatments.

Offline

#145 2020-04-07 10:28:21

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,723

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

SpaceNut,

When the alternative is sitting on your hands and watching your patients die, is it possible that a better alternative solution might be trying something that has at least demonstrated some chance of actually working?

Is blind subservience to Stanford Science a prerequisite for being a medical doctor?

President Trump signed legislation permitting terminally ill patients to try alternative treatments in hopes of better outcomes in at least some cases.  I don't know what the term "terminally ill" means to everyone else, but to me it means that the only other expected outcome from existing approved treatments was death.

From the article you posted:

One North Jersey doctor says he’s treated more than 100 patients at Saint Barnabas Medical Center and has had success using a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, an antibiotic.

“I think this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic,” the doctor, Stephen Smith, said last week when interviewed by Laura Ingraham, a conservative host of a television show on FOX. He is head of the Smith Center for Infectious Diseases and Urban Health in East Orange.

On Monday, Smith said only one of about 75 patients receiving a full course of the drugs had to be intubated – have a tracheal tube inserted to use a ventilator. He said that was Sunday night.

“He was an outlier,” Smith said of the patient.

Another 23 patients who were intubated had not received even half of the full course, he said.

He said only two patients needed to have their regimens changed after monitoring showed heart abnormalities – and they were on other drugs that contributed to the problem.

Smith said that he doesn’t understand the backlash against the drug, or why it has been so politicized.

“I’ve never seen people root for a drug not to work,” he said. “The whole world has gone crazy.”

The FDA has approved it for the emergency treatment of COVID-19 patients.

But some experts say that there has been too much of a headlong rush to uncritically praise the drug, led by the president and fanned by some of his followers.

They point to Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, who has urged caution, saying he wants to wait for the completion of ongoing scientific trials. Over the weekend, Trump would not allow Fauci to answer a question about hydroxychloroquine.

“As Dr. Fauci keeps saying, I’d like to see more data,” said Allegra. “I’ve been using it. But I’m not 100 percent sure it’s the panacea we’ve been reading about.”

The headlong rush into using the drug doesn't even come from President Trump.  It comes from Chinese medical doctors throwing anything and everything they actually had on hand at the virus to try to come up with a better outcome.  I seriously doubt they'd waste their time with drugs that didn't work.

The rest of us would all like to see more data, too, Dr. Fauci.  It occurs to me that there's only one way to collect that data.  Furthermore, in medicine there's no such thing as a silver bullet.  There is always some percentage of patients in which a given drug has no effect or the opposite of the desired effect (makes the outcome worse than not taking a drug).  Medicine isn't like applying physical laws.  That's why medicine is called a "practice", even though there's quite a bit of science behind it.

Offline

#146 2020-04-07 10:46:10

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,304
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

saying he wants to wait for the completion of ongoing scientific trials.

Ye gods, really?  Given that most (67% in the UK) on ventilators die, I think we can be pretty safe in giving *them*, at least, an experimental treatment. In the words of renowned physician Doctor Pepper, what's the worst that could happen?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#147 2020-04-07 11:02:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,552

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

For Terraformer re #146

Following up on your (to me quite reasonable suggestion) I caught an interview with one of the small percentage of survivors who had been on a ventilator. This gent is still a long way from back to full health, but he felt well enough to consent to an interview.  The questions included exactly what you would have asked, judging from your post.  The survivor rattled off a list of treatments his doctors tried.  He said that no one knows which if any of them actually helped, because the doctors (this was in New York) were throwing everything including the kitchen sink at the problem.  He called for many more such experiments (which I suspect is happening in any case) but most of all, for somehow documenting the trials and results so that if there ** is ** a pattern, it can be plucked from the data.

I think that the issue here is that the medical staff are exhausted, in a state of constant anxiety and barely functioning with Adrenalin flooding their systems. You (and the survivor) are asking for the kind of calm, steady, methodical scientific collection of data and reasoned experiment that is possible in an academic setting.

Hopefully the data is being collected so it can be studied after the current emergency, but even that is unlikely.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-07 11:03:04)

Offline

#148 2020-04-07 11:18:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,715

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

There is something else that is coming out of the dead and its the level of the ecomoniecs of being poor have on health and that we are seeing that with enthenticity race numbers. The data is indirectly being collected at this time as the forms do not have that as a quest but is being done after the fact to confirm information numbers.

I think that many do not realise that doctors typically do try many things and that is why its hard to correlate what made any effect to ones improvement in health conditions. Hence why trials are done to give that extra level of confidence in the cure.

Offline

#149 2020-04-07 11:33:52

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,304
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

th,

The obvious way to take the burden off medical staff would be - if they can work without distracting or otherwise interfering with the staff too much - get someone who isn't medically trained to do the data collection, since they won't be able to contribute anyway and it won't involve taking a doctor off duty to do it. I imagine their job would mostly be to note down what medicine a patient is on and what dosages, then relaying that information to the statistics guys who can analyse it for anything useful.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#150 2020-04-07 11:56:56

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,723

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

SpaceNut,

Can we try what the Chinese tried first, since that seems to actually work in many cases if it's started early enough, and then concern ourselves with "boosting our confidence levels", which at this point is little more than appealing to our own vanity that we actually know what we're doing when we're "practicing" medicine?

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB