Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut · 2019-12-24 11:30:35

Sort of sounds like the management is scimming product from inventory for higher finacial gains by sell them on ebay with all of the shipping going on.

edit
In the local area with those that take in goods for reselling for the purpose of funding the non profits. This sort of hush hush has been going on as they buy the item at what they would sell it in there store for but then turn around and profit from there position to make money by turning it around on the ebays and amazon....

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-24 12:10:43

For SpaceNut re #376

<< chuckle >> Well, that's a cynical response, for sure !!!

This is a major US corporation battling for its life with other major chains who are all battling with Amazon. eBay is small potatoes in this game.

I just did a quick lookup on the history of the company. They are now owned by a financial entity based in Canada. I have no doubt that the squeeze is on, and it most certainly has nothing to do with eBay << grin >>

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-24 19:17:10

I’ve been homeless 3 times. The problem isn’t drugs or mental illness — it’s poverty.

46-year-old Carrie Aldrich described through tears what it was like struggling to survive on less than $12,000 a year. I watched and shook my head knowingly, having survived on $8,000 each of the past two years. Such low income, combined with a perfect storm of unaffordable rent, incompatible roommates, non-living wages, and an inability to find full-time work, resulted in three bouts of homelessness that forced me to live in my car. And in a few days, it will happen a fourth time for the same reasons.

So what we have is the chicken and egg problem for what to do with homelessness. You are without a home as a result of low to no income, you lose your home to getting sick and having been wiped out for funds, you can not get an advance education as you have not the income to pay for the course and when you have they are not paying for what you now know.....

Most jobs created post-recession are in low-wage industries, with 44 percent of new jobs paying no more than $13.33 per hour. The same type of administrative work that I was paid $15 to $20 an hour to do in 2000 now pays only $11 to $12 an hour — without benefits, holiday pay, or sick leave. If you don't work, you don't get paid, period.

Sounds like wages are going the wrong way...

housing.0.png

The map is a statement of a 40hr x 52 weeks a year that you must work for to stay at the 30% of wages earned to rental costs.

newer data says its even higher:

https://nationalhomeless.org/about-homelessness/

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/why.html
Why Are People Homeless? Published by the National Coalition for the Homeless, July 2009

https://www.voa.org/homeless-people
2017, over 553,000 Americans were homeless. 40 million people struggle with hunger and 40.6 million officially live in poverty.

SpaceNut · 2019-12-25 21:19:51

This story reads like many that work hard and have luck but its all bad otherwise they would have no luck at all...
A homeless man longs to see his daughter on Christmas. Can he find $27 for a bus ticket?

Not sure what type of cell phone he has but if its a smart andriod type he might be able to use the wifi and an app to connect when near places that have the free wifi for use. It would allow him to be in communications as a first step with others.

In the note of giving hopefully he will get to see family soon...

$531 a month from Social Security, Robert Fox age 70....

Of course the homeless need help but so do those that become homeless for other reasons other than bad luck as these 250 displaced after fire on Christmas at homeless shelter

Most cities and towns have little in the way of shelters for that many and when a large sity have trouble with that few its got to be elevated to that next level as we are just on the brink of having way more if incomes for service jobs do not rise soon....

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-25 21:51:53

This is for SpaceNut re #379 and #378 with figures from 2017

I'll start with a quote from Calliban in the Economy of Mars topic:

Calliban wrote:

In recent years something interesting has been happening. Official unemployment rate is low and inflation is also low. What is more, this has been going on at a time during which central banks around the world have been printing money like crazy and lowering interest rates to almost zero. This would appear to contradict the Philips Curve. Anyone care to take a guess as to what is really going on?

I've been waiting for someong too respond to Calliban's challenge, but so far as I've seen, no one has.

It may have been kbd512 who recently asserted that there is no lack of energy to meet human needs. I suppose that is true, if we consider the constant flood of sunlight that falls on the Earth, or add in the thermal energy from radioactivity in the Earth's core that drives the occasional volcanic eruption.

kbd512 may have been responding to a post that contained a claim that more energy is needed to meet the human needs you keep showing us, SpaceNut.

I admit to being guilty of harboring that thought.

It is time for me to revise my thinking a bit. There ** is ** enough energy to insure every living human is comfortable, including being healthy and well fed, as well as secure in housing and meaningful activity.

Human beings have had difficulty organizing themselves to spread the abundance that is available around the population.

There is a perfectly understandable tendency for each of us to focus on our own needs, and to count it a good day if we are taken care of, and we just can't be bothered to worry about anyone else.

So I'll have to revise my thinking a bit ... I think that there is a need for more energy, but that energy needs to be available to everyone, and I think it is fair to say it is not equally available at this point.

The idea of a basic income comes close to whatever thought pattern may be required to change our collective behavior, but fear of how that might impact whatever security we have seems likely to prevent anything along those lines from happening.

Leadership would seem (to me at least) to be the key, but mindless leadership leads only to disaster. We see examples of that all over the world, including the occasional example in the United States.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-25 23:08:50

When money is printed to out value its assets the buying power of the cash goes down. With wages needing to rise.
Banks live on the hurt of interest to the borrower which includes credit rates that are not going down but up.

While there should be no free ride of a stipen for doing nothing we need to make sure that if all you can get for work is part time hours from employers that they need to have a balance of jobs that are full time as well. Not 1 manager per shift as full time but others as well...

I have been looking at the dollar tree lawn lights plus ornament units which are very low intensity lighting but its a means to bring light into the night of a poor persons home each evening even if its used like we did candles in the old days. Spreading them out to where its critical for safety each evening and moving them when you leave an area to collect them to where its needed. This allows for some savings on a slow but daily basis.

These typically have a rechargible NI-Cad battery capable of 1.2volts at 300mAhr rating in a AAA size shape with the solar cell that is about 1 in square sometimes a bit larger with a small circuit board and led on it.

If its a lightly raining day leave them flat or level but if there is sun lay them at the angle of the lights perpendicular to the top of the solar panel. Flat in the rain will get a few hours out of them for the evenings lighting needs just not a total night as it does on a sunny day. A means to solar concentrate would be what you need to do when its raining to improve there lasting the night.

If you are handy you could use the batteries in them to create larger power supplies for use in other items but it does take some basic knowledge of batteries. The batteries could be placed into a prefabed pack assembly for charging cellphones and making brighter lighting possible. Just put the battery back in the solar light to recharge each day and continue to build up the levels of power that you can get from them as you are able to afford them.

This brings you to levels of power under the 100w but with larger batteries and more solar cells you can build up to the kilowatt level in time but its not worth the cost or the work to assemble them that way though it could be done.

Next tier energy levels
edit:
https://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-26 07:31:19

For SpaceNut re #381

The scenario you described here is actually very much at work in other locations on Earth. From time to time reports show up of success implementing solar panel lighting for families who have done without. It is somewhat dismaying (to me at least) to find them under serious discussion in the United States. We should be better than that, in my opinion.

Regarding your point about an American citizen to be denied a stipend unless they work ... That is the opposite of what I would recommend, but it is certainly traditional. My reason for giving every American citizen enough to live on is very simple ... (a) We can certainly afford it and (b) doing so eliminates misery that leads to degradation and crime.

My fundamental conviction is that everyone starts out in life wanting to be successful, and they will pursue success until a sufficient number of failures beat that impulse out of them.

The principle at work here should apply to any human anywhere on Earth.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-26 10:46:59

That is where most have the issue in no work for what you recieve is under the Entitlements topic headings of federal budgets which include things that you have paid into and others which are just that a means to give aid to the poor.

If you think electricity for poor is the only issue how about good drinking water or plumbing....both of which the homeless are in search of daily...

edit:
If you don't have electricity, what are alternative lights?

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-26 11:06:17

For SpaceNut re topic ...

Your quiet pressure to keep this topic going inspired me to look at Saudi Arabia, where physical wealth ** should ** sustain a robust and healthy population. Sadly, it most emphatically does not. Admittedly, there are significant differences in history and culture at work, but I note from the article at the link below that charity ** is ** a primary value in the dominant religion. The article makes clear that there are ** some ** members of the elite thinking about what might be done to improve overall conditions. However, I get the impression that indifference is a human trait that prevails in that country as much as it does here.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ … inequality

Taking the Mars perspective ... Since the culture of Mars does not yet exist, there is still time to shape it. The default is to repeat everything we have seen on Earth for thousands of years.

A few years from now, if the human race is not careful, SpaceNut will be presiding over a new topic: Why do we have Poverty on Mars?

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-12-26 11:07:42)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-26 11:34:30

tahanson43206 wrote:

A few years from now, if the human race is not careful, SpaceNut will be presiding over a new topic: Why do we have Poverty on Mars?

We have talked a bit about the ill, unable to work for such a mars settlement and how there is a need to be able to return them on the next available ship such a person as the colony settlement can ill afford a person that is disabled and ill.

So so far we have identified for those that are homeless or in poverty as shelter as the key after low wages for why the condition starts with the lack of any safety net of savings that are more than a few thousand in amount.

A prerequisite of getting help is the question on assets and saving as well a property including barial....this works against people to be able to sustain the ability to live and why so many land on the streets.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-26 12:19:38

For SpaceNut re #385 and this topic, and the new Entitlements topic

It seems to me that Earth itself (as currently organized by human beings)

can ill afford a person that is disabled and ill.

It has been that way for thousands of years in most societies. Only the rare few seem to have been able to figure out how to care for their unproductive members. Unless things change in the human "personality", vindictive attitudes toward those who do not carry the full weight of responsibility of citizenship will persist into the new culture.

Meanwhile, the Sun showers the Earth with more than enough energy to provide every person with a comfortable, rewarding life.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-26 12:44:20

I have also had the discusion of net worth for mars as a scientist that does not get there hands dirty with the aspects of farming and other work types is much the same supported by the community and resented by those doing the hard work....

SpaceNut · 2019-12-26 21:16:37

For the poor and homeless finding a means to provide shelter even if its a tent is better than being out in the open air when its raining. So how can we provide when land is not available for one to make the temporary shelter on... from what I have seen in news articles the people are squatting with the tents where ever they can.

I can see the point of liability from the stand point of the land owners and from the city for why they would not want to have squatters on property not keeping it clean from garbage and trash but in the same point there needs to be something done as temporary shelters seem to be in adequate to the job that are in the cities or towns for those that need them.

Many towns and cities have instituted no sleeping in vehicle ordinances thou its a better shelter than nothing. Some Walmarts allow temporary parking in there parking lots if you ask but that can only last so long.

So for a single person what are the needs for a shelter for one to sleep in out of the weather?

typical images

SpaceNut · 2019-12-26 21:34:11

I have seen a local RV convertred for medical and Dental care for the poor in the neighboring city and now here is another option for the poor in 'Shower Power': Woman converts food truck into mobile shower unit for homeless

https://showerpower.ms/

a new paint job of blue bubbles, includes a privacy door, hot and cold water, body soap, shampoo, a sink and a mirror offering free hot showers. In addition to trying to get another truck with washers and dryers, there are plans in the works for haircuts.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-28 08:08:37

This is primarily for SpaceNut re the topic ...

It could go in other topics as well, but it seemed (to me) to be worth adding to this discussion, as a counter to the bad news that tends to overwhelm everything else.

https://www.dataversity.net/man-vs-mach … m=pubemail

This article does NOT make the argument that homeless people could do better if they had AI assistants to augment their human brains to make better decisions, but it does appear to make the point that for existing corporations, AI can increase the capability of existing employees, and thus to increase their value.

***
Recently I met a high school student who is thinking about a career in architecture. I asked which of the many possible concentrations she was considering, and she replied homes, so (naturally) I then asked if she was considering 3D printing as a technology to help to reduce costs and to accelerate the pace of construction. She replied with some skepticism, which tells me that (a) she knew something about the topic and (b) is not overwhelmed with hype, as I would tend to be.

It is not certain that I will meet this person again, but if I do I will offer her the opportunity to update me on her progress, if that is something she would care to do.

She did say she was pretty sure she had seen a video about the Russian hybrid 3D and human construction project. To my way of thinking, that is a very interesting development in practice, and it should lead to replication in other nations whose citizens become aware of it.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-28 12:58:53

repost as this goes well with helping others

tahanson43206 wrote:

Right now I'm preparing for volunteer duty at a local organization. They are holding a gathering just before noon, to prepare publicity to thank volunteers. I'll be attending with the additional purpose in mind of seeing if anyone there is interested in working on recruiting new volunteers. We are often short staff for duty which requires five people fully engaged, and the Task Assignment Manager (my title for the coordinator) is constantly on the phone trying to persuade folks to fill in gaps.
I bring this up because the NewMars forum can advance toward goals created by its members, if there are additional high quality volunteers willing to pitch in to help.
I am not shy about calling for volunteers, and I would like to invite you to take another look at the text in the Registration page, about which I posted recently in another topic. That text is of a legal nature, and should not be disturbed. However, I'd very much like to see a paragraph added to reveal the kind of person you would REALLY REALLY like to add to the membership. If you are granted the power to update that page, you can add specific skills sets you're interested in adding to the mix.
At present, it seems to me that the forum is dependent upon random chance to bring in new members of the caliber of Calliban. In a growing organization, the factors that brought in a new member of the caliber of Calliban would be investigated, to see if the success can be replicated.
From my perspective, you have already demonstrated commendable traits for a group leader, by ruthlessly banning those who deserve that fate.
You have the opportunity to build at the top of the scale, while maintaining strict and firm standards for minimal performance at the bottom.
(th)

This is one of the areas which is hardest to fore fill for many organizations that look to others to join to give the extra set of hands needed by those less capable.

post 390 Achetecture student is going to find it hard to find jobs that will pay well for the cost of the education as its not even in the top paying jobs and even the 3d program application use leaves many wondering where did they go wrong for putting in so much time for the education. I do hope that the student does do well in life but its going to be a roll of the dice...

As for AI its not so much help with the choice but applying processing power on all inputs that are coded to making the choice based off from hard facts in a timely manner.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-28 18:20:30

For SpaceNut re #391

Thank you for your thoughts about the student ...

I too have been thinking about that encounter ... a key for success is comfort with mathematics, and potentially even skill in its use throughout life.

I have no way of knowing (at this point) if math comes easily to this person, but statistics would appear to say that it does not come easily to the average person.

Skill in use of mathematics would appear (to me at this point) to imply potential to earn above the mean, if ways can be found by an individual to hook up with groups which are willing to pay for that skill.

This comes up because I was thinking about how I might approach a conversation with the student about the nitty-gritty of the field of architecture, starting with design of an arch. Our Roman predecessors used (to the best of my knowledge) good old fashioned trial and error, as did their Middle Ages successors who built soaring cathedrals. Today, the student can call upon the accumulated wisdom of hundreds of years of documentation PLUS development of advanced mathematics and mathematical tools, starting with GW Johnson's well worn slide rule, and continuing on to modern digital computer systems.

Picking up on a comment you made:

As for AI its not so much help with the choice but applying processing power on all inputs that are coded to making the choice based off from hard facts in a timely manner.

SpaceNut ... I find that I cannot get through a single 24 hour period without learning something new. It is often shocking to discover that something obvious is not in my mental repertoire, but it keeps happening.

I am treading softly here, because you may already possess this knowledge, and have merely chosen to hide it.

Are you aware that AI self-learning systems are NOT programmed (ie, coded) as has been true for most of the computer age?

If this is a new area of study for you, I suspect it is also a new area for somewhere around 7 billion fellow citizens of Earth.

***
The tie-in to the idea of an AI assistant for homeless people was supported in today's local paper. I was surprised to find a long article about an organization set up to counsel homeless people to manage their interactions with the myriad government and private programs set up to help them, but which they either don't know about or haven't a clue how to navigate.

According to the article, there are people who are PAID to serve as guides for homeless people, and again (according to the article) a track record of gradual but persistent success.

A well designed AI assistant (probably packaged as a smart phone) might be able to extend that kind of service to more customers.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-12-28 18:23:49)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-28 19:17:12

Ai on its self starts with a base level of code with which questions that can not be directly answerd by the rules are placed into a que with general acceptance that it must be true for the equation of interest. It uses statistics and probablity just as a spell check or anticipation fo the next work you are looking to use in a sentence appears of the cell phones message entry. The que of questions for AI continues to grow with the unanswered which have played out to an outcome. Its just storage of a new rule or equation that it can retrieve. When enough combinations of question have outcomes it can make its own equation for the desired inputs which apply as the keywords are generated. Its just probility, choices and statics which help in the selection.

The local governments are told not to volunteer what services the person in need could use until they ask the correct question which then allows them to answer. It I am sure is due to budget and other aspects of providing services to the needy.

Today I was at the local food pantry and did notice the drop in volunteers which is seasonal from the cold weather but also lacking from the youth which it needs as the ones still doing are getting older. What one receieves is based on family size but for the 1 or 2 people in a household the paper bag of mixed cans vegitable or beans or soups, large box of cereal plus many other things woud allow for those in poverty enough food items to cover a weeks worth of some meals when making use of the previous months unused. Its not much but every little bit helps.

Sorry if I seem gumpy as I had a large cyst removed last week and I am still quite sore from its removal from my chest/ abdomen....

SpaceNut · 2019-12-28 19:47:03

With the homelss one would think that a lack of housing is the issue until one finds out that its income to pay for the cost of the housing that is the issue. It is also the issue for why housing is vacant in many cities along with the difficulty of getting into rentals that can be afforded when the reason for them is they could not afford them either.
Metros with the most unoccupied homes in America

United States, there were 17,019,726 unoccupied homes in 2018

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-28 20:16:48

For SpaceNut re surgery .... Best wishes for a swift and complete recovery.

For SpaceNut re #394 ...

The number 17,019,726 is suspect. I doubt that the accuracy can be better than +- 5%, so the number may be in the range of 17 million.

Still, that seems like a fairly substantial number.

I asked Mr. Google for estimates of unoccupied housing in the local region, and got back a number of citations.

Here is an example:

Notes: Total demand represents estimated production necessary to achieve a balanced market at the end of the forecast period. Units under construction as of April 1, 2016. A portion of the estimated 31,900 other vacant units in the HMA will likely satisfy some of the forecast demand. Sales demand includes an estimated demand for 200 mobile homes. The forecast period is April 1, 2016, to April 1, 2019.Source: Estimates by analyst

That text is from: https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-29 07:27:36

This is primarily for SpaceNut re topic in general, and comments by others are welcome ...

SpaceNut, in a post a while back, you mentioned your policy of helping co-workers, and I see your many demonstrations of that ethic in your gathering of information from the Internet to support initiatives by the members of this forum.

I experience your outlook in recent times as being on the pessimistic side, so in the subject I am about to introduce, I have chosen to start with the negative view, and if there is interest we can explore the positive.

This post is about the young person I met recently who expressed an interest in becoming an architect. I have some limited exposure to the field because a couple of relatives took training in the field. One worked it for a considerable period, and the other is just starting out.

Overnight the question came up of what advice a supportive adult might be able to offer a young person interested in the field. The field is daunting for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the critical importance of skill with mathematics.

Mr. Google came up with a LONG list of citations to the question: Book: so you want to be an architect

The one I'll offer here is: by Michael Riscica | Mar 24, 2014 | Practice | 7 Comments

https://youngarchitect.com/2014/03/24/w … architect/

The article at the link above comes AFTER an article about reasons to BECOME an architect.

I was intrigued to see that your prediction of low earnings is supported by Mr. Riscica who ** is ** a registered architect.

He points out that a large number of people who work as architects are forever engaged in realizing the visions of others.

My understanding is that architecture is a field which features meritocracy and (it would be my guess) most Americans would approve.

In such an environment, each individual finds the niche which allows the person to achieve at the maximum capability, just below the level of incompetence made famous by the Peter Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Peter_principle

Armed with (a small amount of) insight from Mr. Riscica, I hope to be able to offer useful suggestions, or at least ask useful questions, if I meet the student again.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-29 10:32:49

Being an archetect is about being able to draw a line into a vision and its through software that you can open up that gate as the lines are the same in mechanical. electrical and all enabling software used to create from prototypes in metal to 3d printing of a design to be able to hold it. I would say broaden the scope of cad classes and play with some of the free ones.

The creation of a building requires knowledge of how power, water are routed and the needs to keep each safe with in the structure that is to be built in shut offs, bus breakout panels, circuit breakers and the returns of waste drains, sewage ect...

Things like plastics forms require a knowledge of the item being created within the model to how to keep it from breaking on the seems as the mold is seperated to remove the part. The pressures and heat to allow the plastics to form the shape and for how to cure it.

The arch was a great example of compund forces of the shape, gravity and demensions to allow for the mass of each piece to hold the other in place. I am hearing that Notre Deme may not be raised as the weather is effecting the remains of what did not get damaged in the fire. This comes down to the art of how to do that GW talks about as all of the science programs and drafting of the structure does not replace the ability to understand how mass can be used to stabilize block to block the shape and size of the building.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-29 14:50:18

For SpaceNut re topic in general...

The study at the link below seems (to me at least) worth your review, because I'm hoping you'll compose a comment for the forum readership.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/if-y … ket-newtab

The title was provocative, as it was intended to be, of course.

The research conclusions are new to me, for sure.

Perhaps others have run across this before, but I had not.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-12-29 16:56:33

Luck yes, but I would also add in location as for whom might get richer as a worker versus being the business creator which is another page unto its self for luck and creation as the owner. The image is quite nice as well to describe the entharpy of chance that you might be the next millionaire in a sea of others all doing the same.

The 80:20 rule is now 99:1 but that just ilustrates the increasing issue of where the money is. That the poeple are getting poorer at the bottom of the pyramid.

The fact that many put in so many hours goes with hard work will get you there, sure in sometime if the hours are overtime pay saved and not needed to make ends meet but invested when young to get the benefit of time to gain interst in stock rise in value or other interesting bearing methods. We learn late in life that the inflation of times will erode the value of the money saved for the future.

5 reasons to rethink your retirement strategy in 2020

Chance when taking in all of the components to the equation means that you are not looking at where you start but only when you get there and what changed to get you there. In this case its funds from none to quite a few bucks which can be slow or fast. Of course just as fast as you get it you can lose it all.

Luck depends on the number of choices that can take you on different paths but as much as we want good there is equal chances for bad along any of the paths.

So for every variable in life there is a good outcome from the starting point and one that is less so but life is what you make it out to be and if you are happy with less then a "Coat of many Colors" has great value to you when all the money in the world will not keep you warm as the money while it can keep you warm does not have the value of the heart.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-31 09:40:41

For SpaceNut

A few days back you posted:

Sorry if I seem gumpy as I had a large cyst removed last week and I am still quite sore from its removal from my chest/ abdomen....

On this last day of the Earth calendar year, I'd like to wish you continued recovery from what sounds like a serious operation, and good health for all of 2020.

This forum has become intertwined with your leadership.

Best wishes for gradual accumulation of the high level of participation on record in the forum archive, and addition of a few individuals able and willing to invest the time to move the Mars project along.

(th)

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#376 2019-12-24 11:30:35

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#377 2019-12-24 12:10:43

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#378 2019-12-24 19:17:10

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#379 2019-12-25 21:19:51

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#380 2019-12-25 21:51:53

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#381 2019-12-25 23:08:50

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#382 2019-12-26 07:31:19

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#383 2019-12-26 10:46:59

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#384 2019-12-26 11:06:17

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#385 2019-12-26 11:34:30

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#386 2019-12-26 12:19:38

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#387 2019-12-26 12:44:20

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#388 2019-12-26 21:16:37

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#389 2019-12-26 21:34:11

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#390 2019-12-28 08:08:37

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#391 2019-12-28 12:58:53

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#392 2019-12-28 18:20:30

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#393 2019-12-28 19:17:12

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#394 2019-12-28 19:47:03

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#395 2019-12-28 20:16:48

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#396 2019-12-29 07:27:36

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#397 2019-12-29 10:32:49

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#398 2019-12-29 14:50:18

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#399 2019-12-29 16:56:33

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#400 2019-12-31 09:40:41

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