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SpaceNut ... thanks for giving this topic a boost.
Repost:
Thats sort of a great question for earth fires.Many a story of near dead when the fire over road the area a person was in had a deep water pool to protect the individual and animal alike. The issue of air quality can only be solve with preplanned air sources stored. Just not sure how much air supply you would really require. Of course that was the purpose of the old root cellars near a home that had just the door to enter in. Which would be stocked with all of what you would need to wait a fire underground.
I'd like to open this round with an assertion that I ** think ** some on the forum will agree with:
Job Creators (as a class) are far more important than politicians (as a class). Earth could do nicely without a single politician, but civilization would expire overnight without job creators.
Having said that, I see a gap between the potential service which job creators COULD perform, and the service they currently do perform, vital as that is, and productive as it has been.
The recent GM layoffs apparently will leave perfectly good, modern manufacturing plants, and thousands of (apparently) highly motivated productive people in a state of disuse. While GM decisions are (to my mind) perfectly reasonable, as the Capitalist system works its magic, the fact remains that resources are being set on the ground as the corporation adapts to the demands of the market place.
The specific instance of GM is just the most recent example of capitalism doing its thing, leaving resources on the ground as corporations adapt to changing market demands.
The above was preface for a Louis-like vision .... that the discarded human and material resources of GM, and other corporations, could be enlisted to manufacture and install fire-resistant emergency shelters in California and other states which need them, and tornado, hurricane and flood resistant shelters for states which need them.
I note that among the human resources to be cast aside by GM are (apparently) thousands of people who manage complex activities, or who manage finances for GM scale projects. My Louis-like vision would include enlisting such talents to figure out how to finance installation of such shelters for persons who perform the lowest paid level of service in society, such as home health care, cleaning buildings after hours, and countless other essential services that allow modern civilized society to keep going.
(th)
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GM's issues are corporate in that they are making products that are to costly, that have no buyers and with materials that are to costly to manufacture.
Diversity of products is another not seen by many corporations are the way to efficiency as unless you are using common parts for the products all you have is excess materials when production is idle.
The rise in materials costs where all on the shoulders of the President to which we are still feeling the effects of those changes. Some blame the unions, the costs of energy, the loss of profits due to regulations ect but thats not always true for any of these.
On the note of the fire and buildings that were made of metal did fair better as well as did brick or any other flame widthstanding materials. Some say that is what regulations are for but others will contend that it makes constructions unaffordable.
The same holds true for flood prone areas with building on stilts. Earth quake zones on sway pads ect... that is the purpose of calling for the higher building standards. To reduce the costs to replace when disasters do happen.
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SpaceNut,
The unions demanded a compensation package that's roughly double what auto workers in the US who work for other major auto manufacturers in right-to-work (non-union) states provide to their employees. That's just a fact. You can try to obfuscate that issue by blaming President Trump for material costs, but GM went bankrupt long before President Trump held office. GM's management signed off on that because they're not all that great at management or finance, in spite of what you suggested, and that's why they're not competitive with rival auto manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the cost of materials. Their trucks and SUV's are competitive with similar products on the market and their primary competitors are also making vehicles in the US, which also subjects their competitors to the same cost of materials. GM bled out a lot of cash by making cars that consumers clearly don't want, at inflated prices from union labor costs, and that's why they're bankrupt again.
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Thanks to SpaceNut and kbd512 for adding perspective about GM to this discussion.
I'd like to bring focus back to the thousands of people, and the equipment and plant that are routinely discarded by the churning of the capitalist system. The problem is most certainly not limited to GM. As far as I can tell, it happens in every country where capital is invested to try to secure the greatest return.
In the specific context of this topic, we have a customer need (whether individuals know it or not) and we have idle resources capable of addressing that need. This kind of situation has been going on for centuries and probably millennia. Job Creators are the category of people who can match the needs to the available resources. However, I concede that the vast majority of people who would benefit from high quality emergency shelter cannot pay for it. This appears to be the case for residents of tornado prone areas who cannot afford tornado shelters, for residents of hurricane prone areas who cannot afford hurricane resistant homes, and certainly for most of the retired people and low wage workers who lived in communities recently destroyed by fire.
The traditional solution is to walk away from the problem.
Elsewhere in this forum there is a discussion of why poverty persists in America, and I would imagine the question could be extended to the entire human population. The problem of organizing human talent and resources to bring about better conditions for all is difficult, and it appears that few people are capable of it. However, future leaders at this level are alive on Earth today, making their way through the education systems in their various countries.
(th)
On the note of the fire and buildings that were made of metal did fair better as well as did brick or any other flame widthstanding materials. Some say that is what regulations are for but others will contend that it makes constructions unaffordable.
The same holds true for flood prone areas with building on stilts. Earth quake zones on sway pads ect... that is the purpose of calling for the higher building standards. To reduce the costs to replace when disasters do happen.
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The large business owners do not care about the people anymore than they need to. Such examples of business provided pensions for a life time of working at low wages have long since been gone. Small business owner have a hard time paying all of the taxations that are part of doing business so they do not create for all that many. We have lost many skills to be able to create for ones self and must rely on cash earned for being able to gain the goods that we would wish rather than being able to make them for ones self.
Some are relearning the skills due to being poor for very long periods of time or just plain not having enough income to be able to afford where they live but are unable to leave it either.
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tahanson43206,
Unfortunately, the churning that goes on in communist systems is every bit as bad. Unlike a free market economy, there's often no natural mechanism to correct production issues because there's little incentive or even disincentive to improve (punishment for making a better product or greater productivity) or admit to making mistakes (also a problem in capitalist systems, but somewhat less prominent since the customer can generally refuse to buy a defective product and take his or her business elsewhere), absent edict from on high (which may or may not ever come). They'll keep making something that doesn't work or works poorly because they've already invested in the infrastructure and technical knowledge required to manufacture an item. Some of the same criticisms can also be leveled against capitalism, but there are generally more robust correction mechanisms or feedback loops in place because the customer is not beholden to the manufacturer for what we would classify as commodity products and services (one of the few, but truly excellent reasons for anti-trust legislation).
SpaceNut,
Business owners have to care about their employees or they'll go out of business, but they also have to care about turning a profit or they'll go out of business. Markets set prices, but contrived government interference nearly always influences business decisions in unexpected and negative ways. That's been true since long before the US ever existed.
Small businesses are still the engine that drives our economy. People look upon the symbolism of large businesses and believe that that represents the bulk of our economy, but it doesn't. However, it's true that certain sectors of the economy are dominated by large businesses because smaller businesses are typically too inefficient to compete. How do you compete with a business that sells corn by the billions of bushels when your farm only produces a couple thousand bushels in a good year? The answer is that you can't. Economy of scale is a very real force that shapes economics. However, that can also be a good thing. As Elon Musk frequently points out, very few people would ever fly anywhere without economies of scale at work. It's not just about the fact that an airliner is reusable, it's also about the number of butts in seats.
As far as your commentary on division of labor is concerned, well, you're right. No single person could construct a GM or Tesla quality car in any reasonable amount of time if they had to make every part from raw materials using only their own labor. Therefore, we have division of labor so that we can drive nice cars, eat nutritious food (admittedly, often too much), and receive high quality health care.
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SearchTopic:BusinessOpportunity
Thanks to SpaceNut for setting up this topic. I interpret this action by SpaceNut as a reflection of his role as a leader of a volunteer community, looking for ways to fit new recruits into the structure so they have a chance to contribute under his watchful eye.
Thanks to kbd512 for his helpful comparison of communist systems and capitalist ones, and (while I'm at it) for a great number of posts on this forum that are packed with useful content on a variety of subjects.
Given this bit of running room, I'd like to provide a place for robust discussion of business opportunities in the context of Mars development.
Because Earth is the only place we humans are currently actually DOING business development, the conversation necessarily will include examples of Earth based opportunities.
I am looking for action plans, or for advice on how to improve action plans to increase probability of success in the marketplace.
Most of all, I am hoping this topic reaches young people who are thinking of building businesses, on Mars if that seems attractive, but certainly on Earth, where the number of people who need the structured environment of a JOB is in the billions. People who enjoy the privilege of participating in a JOB are benefiting from the services of JOB CREATORS, who assume risks that most job holders have no idea about, and many of whom will never comprehend.
In the context of the opening discussion of closing of plants and laying off of thousands of people by one American company, I have pointed out the opportunity that clearly exists to design, install and maintain emergency shelters for Mars or for Earth (or elsewhere). The elephant in the room is that the target population on Earth consists almost entirely of human beings who cannot afford the kind of shelter needed in their particular circumstances.
Accordingly, I am hoping to attract to this discussion persons who have studied financing of public works projects, or large scale projects in general.
The need is clear. The resources of capable human beings and plant and equipment are widely available. What (I perceive) is needed is a set of Job Creators who can match opportunity with resources and see a way to make a profit.
(th)
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Before proceeding further with ideas to develop this topic, the article below showed up on my news feed.
It seems pertinent to a discussion of how to harness the power of capitalism to bring about improved conditions for more people.
https://theweek.com/articles/810572/cap … g-designed
(th)
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Still having issues with the computer and some links but in either case the topic starts out from disaster recovery just as much as sustainability of a working class of people with full time jobs not part time garbage.
So recovery for those that are not so rich as to be able to stay in permanent housing need relief with shelters of all forms from temporary to permanent while an area recovers and begins growing again.
Rewind to the old topics of Katrina and Rita and you will find some of those pages have this business opportunity to do as a non profit and for profit as a mix to give aid for an economically damaged area.
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Are any of you actually buying this garbage? tahanson43206, at what point should we give you are credit card numbers?
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WTF are you talking about, "clark"? If that's even your real name.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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Terraformer email domain name
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The question was also asked to what to do with all the people that are now out of work as a result of the devastating wildfires and what could be done to make better habitats for them.
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repost as it relates
I thought of fire protection during a past fire. This isn't the first one in California. You could build a house using ICG: Insulating Concrete Forms. But instead of making the forms out of Styrofoam, make them out of silicone resin expanded as a foam. Silicone resin is similar to silicone rubber but more firm. It's non-flammable. And obviously that means exterior wall will be solid concrete. For siding, use brick on all 4 sides of the house. Between the ICF and brick, install a bladder of silicone rubber. Fill the bladder with water. If a fire hits the house, the water will boil. Ensure there's a steam vent at the top of the bladder. For the roof of the house, use a steel truss. And don't use asphalt shingles, instead something non-flammable. That could be a steel roof, or concrete or clay roof tiles. With the roof supported by truss from exterior concrete wall, interior walls will not be weight-bearing. So use the same galvanized steel wall studs used for offices. They cost the same as wood studs, but are non-flammable. These are the important features, but you could go further. Instead of regular drywall, use gypsum with fibreglass felt facing instead of paper. Georgia-Pacific calls it "fibreglass mat"; their product brand name is DensArmor Plus. It's supposed to be highly resistant to moisture. But this means walls will be entirely non-flammable. And use real plaster for seams, not some polymer product. Again, non-flammable.
Floors could be tricky. If you want the house entirely non-flammable, you could use a concrete slab. If the house has a basement, the floor could be a steel-concrete composite. Second floor could also use that. This is a construction technique used for office buildings. It's a steel tray attached to outside walls, used to hold the wet cement. Heavy wire mesh installed in the wet cement. The steel tray stays permanently in place, becoming part of the floor. This gives you a concrete floor for each floor. I say "tricky" because some people may not want a concrete floor; it's hard. You could put a silicone rubber underlay beneath carpet. And use carpet with fibreglass cloth backing. Carpet pile would be normal, so carpet pile would not be non-flammable but would be flame retardant.
Then think of things like stainless steel cupboards, anodized for durable colour, with silicone rubber inserts as sound dampeners. Counter tops made of granite, marble, or cultured marble.
Use hard flooring in closets, not carpet. Hard flooring in dining room, kitchen, foyer, bathrooms. Do not use vinyl flooring, instead something non-flammable such as ceramic tile, marble, terrazzo, travertine, terracotta, etc. And again use cement grout, not a polymer product to install the tile. Again, non-flammable.
The water jacket around the house, outside the concrete wall with insulation, means the entire house will be protected against fire.
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continued repost:
Also for a non-flammable house copper plumbing, not PVC. And for sewage plumbing use stainless steel 409, not ABS. It's stainless so won't rust like old steel pipes, but this grade has the minimum amount of nickel and chrome, making it less expensive than other grades of stainless. And you need corrosion resistance for sewage due to puke that will have stomach acid, or diarrhea that will have intestinal digestive enzymes. This grade is corrosion resistant. Stainless 409 is normally used for car exhaust pipes. It will form a patina of rust, it won't stay shinny, but chrome in the alloy will form chrome oxide that seals the metal from further corrosion.
You could even use electrical wiring with Teflon insulation. And metal electrical boxes, not plastic. Again, all non-flammable.
All of the suggestions do create a new market for people to get meaningful work but where are the owners that will do this?
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SpaceNut,
Better forestry management, which includes removing dry / dead undergrowth and dead trees, would limit the spread and intensity of forest fires by removing fuel sources. I believe firefighters would agree that that's a reasonably good way to limit the damage done by fires. On the family farm, which is now more of a forest after decades of disuse, we routinely cleared / collected undergrowth and dead trees.
Roberts ideas are useful for decreasing the maintenance required for a residence and reducing flammable construction materials to a minimum, which as a homeowner I would much appreciate, but even if the structure you're living in isn't flammable, a forest fire surrounding it will suck out the oxygen and those inside will still die of asphyxiation.
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Dear terraformer, is "clark" my real name?
No. I spell mine with a K.
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For SpaceNut and anyone else who may be interested ...
It is clear (to me at least) that there is a lot of talent in the active membership of this forum.
Because the nature of the economy is changing rapidly, there seems to be a growth of what is called the "gig economy" today.
In the past, (and to some extent still) the folks doing short term work were/are called contractors.
In a recent year, I had occasion to try the service now called ( I think ) UpWork ... The need was for a computer generated command file to be fed into a cutting machine. The shape was a mathematical structure called for by members of a technical group of which I was a member.
I tossed the work request onto the Internet, and received back a number of bids from folks all over the world. I selected a woman located in India. Despite the fact she was faced with learning a new computer command language, she completed the task within a few days, and sent the required command file back by email. The company (now called UpWork) managed the finances. We agreed upon a price, I paid but the funds were held in escrow, and when the completed work was delivered and tested with success on the target machine, I released the payment.
I would most definitely recommend this particular worker for similar challenges, if anyone is interested.
However, my main reason for this post is to (try to) insure that everyone with talent to burn (either a member here or not) is aware of the potential to secure gigs via the online services like UpWork. I am not recommending one company over any other. This is the only company with which I have experience, and the experience was good. I would give it a 10 rating, simply because of all the things that could have gone wrong, none did.
If anyone (in the NewMars membership who can post here) tries one of these online gig matching services, I would be most interested to hear how things went.
Please note that of the one applicant who got the contract, there were several people who applied but did not win the work for one reason or another.
In that sense, this work environment is comparable to the "real world" where job openings draw many applicants but only the best matched are accepted.
I'll close with best wishes for success for anyone who ventures into this "new economy" work space.
(th)
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Now if I only had more time to work more than I already do... not yet I will be waiting until I retire to have the free time to do work.
Its either that or keeping sane from boredom.
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Funnily, retirement doesn't seem to result in a lot of spare time for most folks, including my wife and myself.
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Ya the honey do list longer than my arm for weekends but its never completed as other items always get put into it before I can even start on the list.
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We now have three related topics which are in regards to one having a good paying...Of which we know that low pay means poverty and that lack of creating a business will cause that to even deepen the strife of those in need of employment.
June jobs report: Strong hiring in June
Employers added a robust 224,000 jobs in June and the unemployment rate ticked up slightly to 3.7% from 3.6%, the U.S. Labor Department
Spring through the late fall always has the increase of jobs as the warm weather continues through those months but thats seasonal in growth as once it gets cold once more they are gone....
The unemployment upticking during the season is something to question...
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Saw this article and remembered that this topic needed a push.
Space_Traffic_Controller_Not_A_Job_But_An_Adventure is a game of the future for sure as we are getting more launching and hopefully more players into the game with new locations to lauch there rockets from. These will take the price of a ticket to new lows hopefully that will also drive the industries arpund space travel whether its to a suborbital, LEO staycation or to the moon and mars in the future.
Target locations for these jobs will follow where we build the rockets as much as for where we launch them from. So unless I get a launchpad or other such activity going I am left to move if I were to get a job like these. That would also follow that most of those jobs will go to local community members as well.
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SpaceNut,
How many jobs have you received, for which you didn't have 1 day of experience as a qualification, that paid $1,000,000+ dollars per year?
I'm going to keep asking that question until I get an answer from you or someone else here. You can try to redirect as much as you like, but I'm not budging off this question until I get an answer. If you can't or won't answer it, then I'll presume it's because you don't know or don't want to know what the answer is.
It's rather interesting that you denigrate all corporate board members as "high-priced idiots", a very sweeping statement, yet constantly lament the fact that you can't make enough money to make ends meet. Does your statement also apply to people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos as well?
Is it possible that your poor attitude towards business is why you're not making the money you think you should make?
Should any company that pays someone an amount of money that you disagree with go out of business?
I have a theory about why businesses pay these people so much money that is observationally true from my involvement in multiple industries as an outsider / consultant. It's a combination of both personal knowledge of people I personally know that I've directly observed for years at a time and professional knowledge from observing other people I worked with, but don't have any other relationship with.
I've never seen anyone in upper management who works less than 60 hours per week, with most of them working closer to 80 hours per week. Contrary to the popular leftist stereotypes, they're not twiddling their thumbs and smoking cigars at their desks, either. They're hacking away at their computers before I arrive in the morning, they're still working after I leave, and they're typically also working during nights and weekends. They basically never stop working. My boss at the small startup I used to work at was busy answering E-mails and putting together proposals or writing code every time I came to visit him at his home or office. I saw the exact same thing between the small health care services business I previously worked at and the consultancy offering supply chain management solutions. Moreover, I also observed the exact same behavior at the dozens of very large companies in different industries that we provided those supply chain management solutions on behalf of. It's not hard to figure out who they were going to give those jobs to, nor why they were paid more than someone working a 9 to 5 job.
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There is a huge difference between a business owner and a corporate board figure head making decisions.
If qualification is having held a job simular to the one you are to recieve then no one qualifies for any as you have never held that position before. How would one test to see if you should be given that position on a trial period? If qualifications require a BS degree then thats not setting the bar all that high on the requirements to be able to perform the job.
Boards that make decisions the harm people such as the talc asbestos or simply asbestos use, that cause product quality to drop so low that the business is put into recievership, that lemon laws are created such to that product quality, or how about the most recent vaping crazy that is killing users of the product very quickly not slowly like cigarettes.
As to the question of being paid a "$1,000,000+ dollars per year" would love it but no those jobs are far and few between. Having been an owner and propietor of creating the income and in control of the earnings for wages I know that I would never think that anyone is worth that amount even if the business does make billions a year. They should be paid for the level of worked hours at a wage for the importance of there job relative to others.
How about feeding a family of 6 on zero income not just a day but for months on end while all assistance programs will not help? Only able to find enough work to keep the roof over your heads and the electricity on after getting food with no working vehicle.
As for working a 40 hour job how about putting in that 10 to 20 hours a week additional and not being paid for it?
It is significant to me as it would be impacting others if you do not do so. How would handling million dollar parts plus for these working folks be of less importance?
How about when the dumby in management says a 60 cent oring can be tossed out when they did not count the value of the work performed to make it readily available for the worker. That 10s of thousands of such parts are disposed of by that process thinking with a thousand being spent for each one up front plus the cost of the part being thrown away. Only to turn around in a few days making the same requested part be ordered once more with rush shipping costs.
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The average American is paid $52,267 as of July 2018 before taxation, insurances ect....
There appears to be 6 Types of Jobs That Can Pay $1 Million
Short list:
1. A-List actor
2. Corporate CEO
3. NBA player
4. Screenwriter
5. Banker
6. Law firm partner
11 Jobs With Shocking Salaries
list under medical fields
1. Paramedic
2. Anesthesiologist
3. Software Engineer Intern
repeater 4. Actor
5. News Reporter
repeater 6. Chief Executive Officer
7. Railroad Conductor
8. Food Scientist
9. Elementary School Teacher
10. School Principal
11. President of the United States of America
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