Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

Dorothy · 2003-04-27 08:29:03

hopefully this thread will not have any stability issues
Agreed, hopefully it'll be about Naming Martian Settlements and not tangent discussion about gender wage or whatever. :laugh:

Hello Josh Cryer,

when you mentioned there should be no discussion about gender wage, I suppose you meant my entry about proposing women like Marie Curie and Olympe de Gouche should be memorized.
Reminding people that women's work is often forgotten states the facts and is very legitimate.
Trying to silence me when I mention this is undemocratic indeed.

Sincerely,
Dorothy

Gennaro · 2003-04-27 15:23:25

Gennaro: I wish you hadn't used the term "kingdom" in your post.

- Hum... why may I ask?

And I know it sounds rediculous, but your Oxis and Sydon made me think at once of Sodom and Gormorra. Sorry for not being more helpful....

- Well, I guess the Old Testament also has its fair share of civilization hatred.
But okay, if you don't like it, you don't like it.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-30 21:46:19

Dorothy, I believe I was specifically referring to an instance where a thread devolved into a topic which was decidedly not what the original poster had intended. The comment wasn't about gender wage, but rather, the pseudo-animosity between posters here, who didn't care to keep on the original topic. Since I'm also probably equally wrong for doing such things, I thought it was funny (and at the time I believe it'd just happened, so it was fresh on our minds, I'm sure).

Thing is, if we were to dig up said topic, you might find that I side with you on these kinds of issues, but, maybe you don't really care about that.

clark · 2003-05-01 09:36:32

Power. Communication. Life.

Josh Cryer · 2003-05-06 22:34:37

The solans

Solans are humans who could rightly be called Travellers of Sol. One must note that solans are quite unlike Solans. Solans are a scientific people who consider themselves equal among the rest of humans, and attempt to push off their political belief as though it were the only truth. Though Solans do this to a mild extent, they aren't like solans. Solans (with a small S) are a people who do not have any real political affilation at all. Throughout the solar system different human societies have ascribed cultural identies with themselves, names, rituals, and so on. With the except of a group of people wholly unrelated to one another; in fact, many solans don't even call themselves by anything in particular, except for the common designation the people have in the current living place. And many solans don't even know other solans, except for companions, and perhaps the very rare chance of recognizing another (it's almost impossible to distinguish a solan from a local).

If a solan lives on Mars, he would call himself Mars-an, but would attempt to avoid situations where such designations could occur, since doing so would be neither true nor false.

You see, solans are regular humans who have, perhaps because of a genetic trait, or perhaps because of an individual- loaner- personality, found a place for themselves in practically every place visitable by transit systems, and then, even some places which aren't so easy to get to.

Solans (again, with a small S) are people who assimilate into any culture which would allow it to the smallest extent. If a culture doesn't take very kind to strangers, then solans are too unfortunate to be able to experience said culture, but solans have found a way to belong in practically any culture, some inadvertantly, and others through unforced purpose. We call them solans because they have traits which the Solans preach as ?the? true political philosophy, but unlike the Solans, they actually practice what they preach, which necessarily means a more pacifist, less intrusive, approach to existance (and in fact, no preaching at all).

clark · 2003-05-14 13:55:36

Sydonia

clark · 2003-05-15 09:57:32

Oz

Palomar · 2003-05-15 12:38:26

*As I told you yesterday, Clark, your posts are very beautiful. I especially like "Sydonia." Its eerie, macabre flavor in the backdrop of a desolate landscape...delicious chills!

--Cindy

I'll have more comments soon...

clark · 2003-05-20 09:55:33

"I especially like this one. Its eerie, macabre flavor in the backdrop of a desolate landscape...delicious chills! "

Palomar · 2003-05-21 13:35:10

*Lovely, Clark. And considering it's already in the 90's here...

I'm wondering: How long does it, on average, take you to create a post like this (sans typing)? Do the ideas come quickly together?

--Cindy

clark · 2003-05-22 11:46:21

A view from Remembrance Point, Mars (page 1 of this thread):

Palomar · 2003-05-28 12:46:42

*Clark, this is excellent ["Luna Falls"]! Why not try and profit from your talents?

BTW, I notice you used the word "minuet" in your most recent post (relative to the photo from Mars of Earth and the Moon). Did I somehow influence you to use "the minuet" in descriptive?

--Cindy

clark · 2003-05-28 13:23:55

"Why not try and profit from your talents?"

clark · 2003-06-02 15:28:52

Memorial to the fallen.

clark · 2003-06-11 10:02:20

Mars Wear

Ranger_2833 · 2003-07-10 19:53:33

How about we name them after our great and foresighted political leaders that have helped us advance towards the colonization of space. Wait...What is that you say? The politicians have set us back decades? Never mind then, I withdraw my proposal.

:angry:

prometheusunbound · 2003-07-14 07:52:36

how about we just name the larger colonys formally and number the smaller ones (if numurous). The crew could then name it whatever they like (informally, of course) and then let things take their own course. . . .

Amateur Philosopher · 2003-08-20 19:57:22

I suggest (taking a cue from the wonderful computer game Starsiege) "Old Barsoom" as a settlement name... a fitting salute to Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Spider-Man · 2003-08-30 13:36:09

Regarding the names of people and things from space, such as Clark's "Mars-an" and "Terran" and I also saw "Solan" somewhere...

"Martian" denotes being from Mars, and, lyrical as he was, I honestly don't find Clark's "Mars-an" in any way appealing (unless he's just trying to make a joke at how stupid and absurd political correctness can get). "Terran" doesn't mean anything (and I abhore its use in Star Trek). If one actually were trying to Latinize "Earthling", it should be "Terrenan", coming from terrenus, meaning "of the earth". But there already is a great word in English that already means exactly that: "Terrestrial". There's no need for "Terran" anything; "Terrestrial" is the extant word itself. Terra is definitely a name for the Earth, and Terrestrial is definitely the name for someone from the Earth.

As for "Solan", that's also pretty odd. There's already an adjective meaning "of Sol", the sun: "Solar". Indeed, in Hindu mythology, the Solars were an actual people, as opposed to their enemy the Lunars ("Lunan" is also completely nonsensical and irrelevant).

As for Star Trek using "Terran" instead of "human" to describe oneself, I think that's pretty ironic. The word "human" comes from humanus, which is from humus, meaning the Earth. Therefore, humanus, human, means "of the Earth", just the same as terrestrial. I think the key distinction in the future will be that "Terrestrial" will indicate a person born on Earth, whereas "human" will indicate "from the Earth", originally, the birthplace of our race.

And that's my rant on proper names. I think we should refrain from inventing words when we already have ones that exist for the same purpose and don't need replacing.

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-30 14:05:24

Well, technically speaking, -an and -ar are similar in meaning, so Solan or Solar would be fine in either case. Likewise Lunar or Lunan. Personally, I find neither unappealing, but that's probably just me.

And Terran also has no real issue, because again, -an is a proper suffix. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BTW, clark was just being his annoying own self by complaining about Mars-an's. It was really silly. :;):

clark · 2003-08-30 17:19:55

You are both guppies who have yet to live outside your bowls.

Spider-Man · 2003-08-30 18:55:45

Indeed, Clark is very entertaining. I think I was complaining against Star Trek's incongruity more than his.

I do see your point, Josh. However, "terran", "solan", "lunan", and other such invented variants have one key disadvantage: they do not exist. They are not real words. There are existing, real words from the very same language we invoke to give us suppos?d technical correctness. If there were no previously existing suffix for a word like "Luna", I would certainly accept the use of an innovated word. But the proper, technically correct word very clearly is Lunar.

My point is that "-an", indeed, is not a proper suffix, and it shows our universal ignorance (very true in modern times, as we all have been victims) of the very language we claim to know and love. The proper suffix, in Latin, for terra is -estris. Latin is a very complex language, and doesn't work with the same kind of regularity as we like to ascribe to it. You can see the oddities just by scanning through a Latin dictionary.

For instance, the word for "archer" in Latin is sagittarius. This comes from sagitta, meaning arrow. The suffix -arius is essentially "-man", as in "one who controls" the root word, like "fireman" or "policeman" or even "spiderman". (Incidentally, my real last name in Italian means "spiderman", which could have indicated my ancestors as exterminators, or just arachnophiles, and has a similar sort of ending that derives from the Latin.)
However, that does not mean every such similar weapon can be given the ending -arius and called a correct form. No, indeed, the word for one who wields a gladius is not gladiarius, but gladiator. Also, the plural of sagittarius is sagittarii. But the plural of gladiator is gladiatores.

You see that Latin is very inconsistent. And those inconsistencies are just as prevalent in our own language as a result, for 67% of English comes from Latin. So unless we intend to completely rewrite our language, I think it quite radical to go replacing all the existing, fundamentally proper words we already have in our lexicon just to give some illusion, some delusion of intralingual unity.

We might say that, when given a planet like Mars that already has the right conditions for colonization, there is no need to facillitate those conditions on a place like the Moon, where they are not natural ? truly, don't build a new planet when a better one already exists.

clark · 2003-08-30 20:09:50

"However, "terran", "solan", "lunan", and other such invented variants have one key disadvantage: they do not exist. They are not real words. "

How real is your dream of Mars, Terran friend?

You seem learned regarding language, and her proper pronunciation. Yet have you no experience with slang? Have you no experience with the rise and fall of words, their relevance, or their point of view?

It was once proper to call many a man by a name you would shudder to mention now. It changes, words change, as with all things, in time.

Martian, is the word you use. It is not the word I use. Understanding why is to come closer to an understanding between us.

What do you call little green men from Mars?

I assure you, I am not green. So why would I choose that name for myself?

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-30 20:35:20

English has always been a language which takes from other languages. That's in part its beauty and its problem.

I disagree that -ar is the proper suffix for those people relating to Luna or Sol or anything for that matter. In this context Luna or Sol are adjectives, -ar would denote 'relating to' whereas -an denotes 'belonging to.'

We don't call Americans 'Americars.'

Throughout the ages English has attempted to be 'standardized.' Just look at how Merriam-Webster changed all the S's to Z's in the language! English, has, however, shown that it doesn't really care, and whatever becomes common usage, will become common usage whether people like it or not.

Personally, I wouldn't mind using 'Earthan.' I think all these variations are cute. We'll just have to see what most people like.

Spider-Man · 2003-08-30 23:55:57

You become more charming all the time, Clark.

I disagree that -ar is the proper suffix for those people relating to Luna or Sol or anything for that matter. In this context Luna or Sol are adjectives, -ar would denote 'relating to' whereas -an denotes 'belonging to.'

I see your point, Josh. But I'm afraid that's not true at all; in Latin, adjectives tend to be identical to their corresponding nouns (such as sagittarius meaning both "releating to the arrow" and an individual who "belongs to the arrow".) And so in English, we have the same: "American" is both a noun and an adjective, as is "German", "Italian", or "Martian". I don't dislike your rationalization, that "-ar" could be for adjectival use, and that "-an" would be for nouns. But, as evidenced by the examples I just gave, that is not the case. There are many kinds of suffixes, each appropriate to its own set of words. There is no need to "standardize" them; such would destroy the beautiful variety inherent to English and Latin both.

And also, you forget how I mentioned that the Lunars and Solars both really were people, at least to the Hindus, and are nouns. In myth, there was the Solar civilization, which founded the Golden Age, and it eventually fell to the Lunar civilization, founders of the Silver Age. Such is merely the make of legends; but eventually we really will have Lunars, people from the Moon.

And as for Webster "standardizing" English, in fact he made it more classical, basing his work on the scholarship already occuring in America. The British dialect of English is rather divergent in fact from high English. For instance, you can see here the etymology of the suffix "-ize":

http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b … ary&va=ize

It comes from the Latin -izare, which in turn came from the Greek -izein. French, however, for whatever reason, changed the 'z' to an 's'. So, indeed, Webster did nothing but return English to its classical roots, leaving Britain allied linguistically with French (truly, the vulgarist of Latin).

There are many other examples of this, such as "honor". There at no time before the American colonization was a standarized British spelling "honour" with a 'u'. Indeed, have a look:

http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b … y&va=honor

Middle English, Shakespeare's English, spelled "honor" as Americans do. The British deliberately added it later, in order to be different, and in order to "standarise" their own dialect. But this is not the case for every other such similar word. However, unlike "honour", the most famous British variant, "colour", is not a recent invention:

http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b … y&va=color

Shakespeare spelled "color" with a 'u'. However, that is a French vulgarization of the classical Latin. Webster, again, bless his heart, fixed it, and returned the word to its proper spelling. Most "-ou-" appearances in modern British English are in fact added in order to make themselves different from Americans, not the other way around.
I find it ironic that the British wish to be more like the French, and then look their noses down at our spellings, when in fact we have the highest, the least disrupted of all.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2003-04-27 08:29:03

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#52 2003-04-27 15:23:25

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#53 2003-04-30 21:46:19

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#54 2003-05-01 09:36:32

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#55 2003-05-06 22:34:37

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#56 2003-05-14 13:55:36

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#57 2003-05-15 09:57:32

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#58 2003-05-15 12:38:26

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#59 2003-05-20 09:55:33

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#60 2003-05-21 13:35:10

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#61 2003-05-22 11:46:21

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#62 2003-05-28 12:46:42

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#63 2003-05-28 13:23:55

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#64 2003-06-02 15:28:52

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#65 2003-06-11 10:02:20

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#66 2003-07-10 19:53:33

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#67 2003-07-14 07:52:36

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#68 2003-08-20 19:57:22

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#69 2003-08-30 13:36:09

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#70 2003-08-30 14:05:24

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#71 2003-08-30 17:19:55

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#72 2003-08-30 18:55:45

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#73 2003-08-30 20:09:50

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#74 2003-08-30 20:35:20

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

#75 2003-08-30 23:55:57

Re: Naming Martian Settlements 2 - Continued from previous thread

Board footer