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#101 2018-07-27 21:12:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Fussion reactions create and expanding electromagnetic field inside the chamber where the reaction takes place and the superconducting magnetics are expelling or in this case containing the expansion energy within or compressing it inward.
This is what is called torriod coils and they will appear to be over lapping so as to keep energy from leaking by them.

tokamak-wikipedia-800x450.jpg

Fusion-2.jpg

over lapping field are used....

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#102 2018-08-09 18:28:23

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

The megosphere that is reshaped by the solar winds
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/re … on-on-mars
plume_cartoon_2.jpg

Of course radition suit protection while in the open dome with breathable atmosphere
https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comme … s_it_work/

Top of dome atmosphere would be more like the layers of earth with ozone at the top with gas mix as it fills the remaining
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … lt-on-mars

But what if the glass frame had the magnetic coil loops within them to form small field grids that would project above each window toward the sky...

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#103 2018-08-11 19:56:42

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

We have guessed at how the earth does it but we are not a 100% sure but we can measure it and learn from it and other planets to maybe figure it out.
Satellite measurements of the Earth's magnetosphere promise better space weather forecasts

Earth is constantly being hammered by charged particles emitted by the Sun that have enough power to make life on Earth almost impossible. We survive because Earth's magnetic field traps and deflects these particles, preventing the vast majority of them from ever reaching the planet's surface.

The trapped particles bounce back and forth between the North and South poles in complex, ever-changing patterns that are also influenced by equally intricate and shifting electric fields

wave-particle-interaction-earth-inner-magnetosphere-explored-erg-satellite-hg.jpg

Looks something like the above reactor fields....

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#104 2018-08-12 11:47:57

Void
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Hi Spacenut!

I will try to play nice.
Well, I am aware of notions of artificial planetary magnetic fields, and the hoped results.
I also find that I have some very dark notions of the productive output from the efforts.
But….:) we can consider some alternatives which may overlap, and also attempt to include as much as possible the various "Spit Balls" that are being contemplated to be cast at the wall of Mars.  We can hope some can stick, we can hope that with a master shell of plans we can foster the sticking, and the better possibility of success.

……

Assuming that you might allow me to operate in pompous mode, here I go.

My own current notions think that we could accommodate both the SpaceX and the Gateway and LOP-G peoples and indeed others that may demonstrate actual movement to Mars, and hope to integrate it all.  Not guarantee, just try, try again.

I will suppose that SpaceX might pull it off.  I would rather support their try than oppose it.  I would hope that others would stand up and hold them steady for the effort.  Win or loose, the matter will be settled.  The planet successfully settled or not.  We take chances some times. 

But a magnetic field for Mars?  I understand to a degree the idea of a singular field.  Perhaps in L1-Mars?  Well, who is going to pay for that and what will it get who?

Of the gasses willing to leave Mars, Hydrogen being the most unfaithful to Mars.
Isotopes of Hydrogen suggest quite a historical loss of Hydrogen.
I think it is reasonable for me to suppose that the loss of Carbon and Oxygen might be lower.  But then where are those items?
My argument of an atmosphere going underground seems reasonably reasonable (To me), but then what about Argon?  Can we put that underground somehow?  Where is it?  Gone with the solar wind, or is there a way for it to accumulate elsewhere?  Unsure absolutely.

So, we are also unsure how the humans will act and we are unsure about the nature of Mars, we may consider where our relatively assured strengths may occur. We hope....

So, I choose to accommodate, whatever tries are tried.   I also support orbital space habitats with synthetic gravitation and in part protection from radiation by habitat magnetic fields.  Each then having a magnetic field for selfish interests of personal protection still being a part of a greater protective shield around the planets, Mars and/or Venus.

From each planet available to orbit are Nitrogen and Oxygen and other things.  From some sources at first, the Moon, Asteroids, and even Mercury I at first propose heavier materials.  Eventually heavy materials from the surfaces of Venus and Mars as well.


The orbital habitats around Mars being protected from volatile losses by a collective magnetic field.  An interaction with each habitat with each other, and also the fossil magnetic fields of Mars.  And yes people on Mars if it seems reasonable and moral.  Yet connected to a whole solar community.

The magnetic community around Mars quite complex in their magnetic interactions.  Not as simple as a rotor/stator arrangement.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-13 11:51:42)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#105 2019-05-23 20:04:27

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Some has indicated that superconductor would be how one might get it done. Scientists break record for highest-temperature superconductor

https://nationalmaglab.org/news-events/ … ng-promise

An out stretched wire is not a coil and will have near no field strength....

https://futurism.com/superconducting-ma … rld-record

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#106 2019-11-04 17:11:18

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

knightdepaix wrote:

https://www.space.dtu.dk/english/Resear … lar%20wind "shows that a stronger solar wind mainly accelerates particles already escaping the planet's gravity, but does not increase the ion escape rate. Contrary to previous assumptions, the induced magnetosphere is also shown to protect the bulk of the Martian ionosphere from solar wind energy transfer."

This sort of means that we should be able to reinforce the field to keep the air from escaping....

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#107 2019-11-24 16:38:48

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

we saw from maven the distortion of the magnetic field of mars as a comet passed by and now we have heard the sounds of earths...
Hear the Earth’s magnetic field sing as it is bombarded by a solar storm

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#108 2019-12-05 04:15:03

qraal
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From: Brisbane, Australia
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Posts: 63

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Guys, the loss rate in present conditions has been measured. It's even been extrapolated back to past aeons when the Sun's output was much higher. Guess what? The loss is minimal, compared to what a terraformed Mars would need, to be terraformed. And that's the cumulative losses over 4 billion years - longer than we can reasonably hope for Earth to remain habitable, let alone Mars.

If we give Mars an atmosphere then it doesn't need a magnetic field to retain it for humanly reasonable timeframes (~1 gigayear). The magnetic field to deflect the high energy Solar particle events from reaching the surface, before we terraform it, then that'd be a good idea.

But life on Earth has weathered no Magnetic Field on Earth before. Hell, the most recent magnetic reversal (lasted ~440 years) was just 41,400 years ago - the Laschamp Event. Life on Earth didn't drop dead just because the magnetic field dropped to nearly zero (~5 %) for a while. The main protection against particles from space is the atmosphere itself - all 10 tons per square metre of it.

Last edited by qraal (2019-12-05 04:18:17)

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#109 2019-12-05 07:07:18

louis
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Agreed again! People get hysterical about these atmospheric losses but they are happening over a very long period of time. We can afford to be relaxed about them.

I think, realistically we might be better advised to think in terms of maybe surface level particle deflection protection.

qraal wrote:

Guys, the loss rate in present conditions has been measured. It's even been extrapolated back to past aeons when the Sun's output was much higher. Guess what? The loss is minimal, compared to what a terraformed Mars would need, to be terraformed. And that's the cumulative losses over 4 billion years - longer than we can reasonably hope for Earth to remain habitable, let alone Mars.

If we give Mars an atmosphere then it doesn't need a magnetic field to retain it for humanly reasonable timeframes (~1 gigayear). The magnetic field to deflect the high energy Solar particle events from reaching the surface, before we terraform it, then that'd be a good idea.

But life on Earth has weathered no Magnetic Field on Earth before. Hell, the most recent magnetic reversal (lasted ~440 years) was just 41,400 years ago - the Laschamp Event. Life on Earth didn't drop dead just because the magnetic field dropped to nearly zero (~5 %) for a while. The main protection against particles from space is the atmosphere itself - all 10 tons per square metre of it.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#110 2019-12-05 17:15:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Sure you can fatten uo a co2 atmospher but you still can not breath it and since oxygen once freed up is going to leak off faster than co2 currently does. A magnetic field would create the plasma field to help retain more of it.

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#111 2019-12-16 02:58:53

qraal
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From: Brisbane, Australia
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Posts: 63

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

SpaceNut wrote:

Sure you can fatten uo a co2 atmospher but you still can not breath it and since oxygen once freed up is going to leak off faster than co2 currently does. A magnetic field would create the plasma field to help retain more of it.

The loss rate is *minimal*. As in, takes aeons to be substantial. Both Venus and Mars are mostly protected from the Solar Wind by the induced ionosphere fields on both planets.

However, an artificial field might help protect people on Mars from Solar storms. That's a good thing. But nothing to do with stopping atmosphere from blowing away.

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#112 2019-12-16 21:41:13

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

The reason we are losing the air on mars ios the ionosphere is not generating enough field to keep the lose rate down as the atmosphere expands. Electric currents induced in the ionosphere generate magnetic fields (ionospheric dynamo region). Such a field is always generated near where the atmosphere is closest to the Sun, causing daily alterations that can deflect surface magnetic fields by as much as one degree. Of which a stronger reaction to the increased magnetic field from below. When the field direction is the same we are able to build up against a lose of air due to the solar winds which are making the ionization possible in the upper atmospher.

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#113 2020-06-05 10:44:53

Void
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

This seems to be one of your favorite pets Spacenut.

I am going to display something that I don't think I understand well enough, and ask if it could be applied to a magnetic shield(s) for Mars.
It is actually a solar wind propulsion device, but I am wondering if it or some other device could be practical for Mars.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

It is typically said that atmospheric losses on Mars are due to the solar wind, and sunlight.

I am wondering of electrical Oxygen Levitation could also be part of it.  I don't know for sure if it exists for Mars, but it does for Venus.
https://www.space.com/33245-venus-shock … water.html
Quote:

Powerful 'Electric Wind' Sucked Venus' Oxygen into Space

"It's amazing, shocking," Glyn Collinson, a scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center and lead author on the new work, said in a statement. "We never dreamt an electric wind could be so powerful that it can suck oxygen right out of an atmosphere into space. This is something that has to be on the checklist when we go looking for habitable planets around other stars."
The oxygen would have been pushed out of the atmosphere by Venus' electric field, Collinson said. On Venus, the electric field is so strong that the heavier, electrically charged oxygen ions are pushed out of the atmosphere along with the lighter hydrogen. Scientists are unsure why the field is so much stronger at Venus than at Earth, but the researchers suggested that perhaps it's because Venus is so much closer to the sun, where the ultraviolet sunlight is twice as

Perhaps the electrical field of Mars is not that strong, but it may make a contribution to losses.
I previously read that it was because the atmosphere of Venus was so dry that the electrical field did this, but here they seem to cite U.V.
http://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Image … d_at_Venus
Quote:

This is at least five times larger than expected. Previous observations in search of electric fields at Earth and Mars have failed to make a decisive detection, but they indicate that, if one exists, it is less than 2 V.
"We think that all planets with atmospheres have a weak electric field, but this is the first time we have actually been able to detect one," says Glyn Collinson from NASA's Goddard Flight Space Center, lead author of the study.

In any case however Oxygen is leaving Mars there is a desire for a cure.

I have not been following this topic strongly, and don't wish to review it all.  I am sure you can slap me down if needed. smile

Posts #111 and #112 are interesting.

Good chances I will make a fool of myself here but.....maybe a chance this would be useful.....or might suggest a better thing.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

Here I am confused....
The drive coils of the reference design are small, about 10 centimeters in diameter. With 10 kW of electric power, the magnetosphere expands to about 30 kilometers in diameter at 1 AU, with enough magnetic force to deflect the solar wind pressure of about 1 nPa (1 nN/m2) which produces a thrust in the direction of the wind of about 1 newton (1N). Thrust is transmitted to the device by the magnetic fields, just as with the coupling of rotation in an electric motor (figure 2).

They are small but the device uses 10 kw of power, that may indicate that I do not properly understand the entire dimensions of the whole device.  Perhaps you can straiten me out so I will understand better.

Anyway at the moment I am wondering if multiple instances of the device could be deployed on the surface of Mars where maintenance and repairs might more easily be done.

I suppose I am hoping that something like this could induce electrical currents in the upper ionized atmosphere of Mars to create magnetic fields useful for deflecting the solar wind, and also to protect from some types of radiation from the sun.

Are you able to tell me the flaws in that thinking or would something like that work?  I am thinking that if it did work, maybe only the day side or only a portion of the planet needs a magnetic field.  This might save power.

On the other hand, currents induced in the subsurface of Mars, may leach off some of the power, heating the regolith.

And so such a device might serve to terraform by heating the subsurface, and potentially releasing volatile materials to the atmosphere.

Over a very long period of time if used in a non-symmetrical way per the whole sphere of Mars, it might be possible to alter the day length on Mars.  But if so, a very long period of time.

The 30 km size of the field they would use for propulsion is apparently 18.6411358 miles, so the device would have to be "Amped Up" considerably to be useful for protecting the atmosphere of Mars, but as per post #111, a smaller edition would serve to provide some surface radiation protection.

I am guessing that since this is your favorite pet, you have a better grasp of how this may not work.....Or maybe a different version of it might work.

Hit me hard if you feel you need to.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-06-05 11:13:59)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#114 2020-07-01 13:43:32

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,476

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

I have been thinking about a magnetic system for Mars, which would be composed of multiple ground based superconducting magnets.

I have read how Dr. Zubrin would insulate those with aerogel, so keeping them cool on the surface of Mars might not be that hard.  Maybe dump heat at night if you could.

Of course they would be used to try to protect the atmosphere, but also I would think that they could shelter cities from some radiation.

But as is typical, I want to hope that they "may" be able to generate electrical power.

So, if accomplished, you have an array of these magnetic domes across the surface of the planet.  It is even possible, I think that they could become more substantial, if they can collect plasma from the upper atmosphere into themselves.  I am a bit unclear about that.

While a constant solar wind could not cause a changing current in the supper conductive coil on the ground, turbulence and buffeting may do so.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … s-the-beat
Quote:

In Solar System’s Symphony, Earth’s Magnetic Field Drops the Beat
Space isn’t silent. In fact, an entire orchestra of instruments fills our near-Earth environment with eerie sounds. Scientists have long known about space phenomena involving electromagnetic waves travelling around Earth that resonate like string instruments and whistle like wind instruments. Now, new research published in Nature Communications has added a percussive member to the cosmic ensemble: a giant drum, triggered by plasma jets striking the boundary of the protective magnetic bubble surrounding our planet.

While the main current of the superconductor would be initially intended to be a sort of constant or a set (DC?) value, I am wondering if the warping of the magnetic field by variations in the solar wind could be felt as a AC current imposed within that so called DC value.

Being away from electronics and the electrical field, I initially thought of capacitors, and a rectifier circuit, but the superconductor will have at most a minimal voltage.

But, perhaps if inductors were included in the loop, then as in a transformer, the AC portions of the field that I presume would be induced by an uneven solar wind, might be collected by a transformer secondary coil.  Don't know if this would be practical power but it would exist, I believe.

I also am thinking that it may be possible that in certain angles to the wind, having a bumpy protective magnetic field, may cause turbulence in the flow which might make the effect stronger.  Sort of like a flag waving in a wind.  The next field might experience the induced oscillations, where the more steady solar wind flow, would become more blustery.

I thought it was at least worth a trial balloon.

Done.

Not Done smile

If there can be induced repeated bending of the field lines by the solar wind, this might also cause some heating in the subsurface by inductive reactions of molecules capable of reacting to magnetic fields.  Salt water, Iron, whatever.

The superconductor, when running correctly should use little power, so perhaps there could be a power gain from this proposed generator system. 

(If it actually would work).

Maybe the for the Moon also?  Other worlds?

Done.

More then:

There are fossil magnetic fields on the Moon and Mars.  Perhaps to study what happens with them?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Fo … &FORM=VIRE

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-07-01 14:28:40)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#115 2020-07-01 16:57:32

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,235

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Sort of similar to the sound cancelling head phones such as to block the external noise from being heard but just at the frequency and intensity of the solar wind interactions.

Setting up satellites with in the fields such that we add energy to intensify the what field mars has in orbit as well. maybe this could be a secondary activity for the gps system is to conduct power from one to the next to make a static field current conduction...from one to the next and so on around the planet.
I do not think that a long cable between the satellites is all that possible but its low current and high static voltage that would be used....

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#116 2020-07-01 17:07:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,476

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Early days, much to learn and test.

But I am guessing that in addition to solar wind itself, it may be possible to "Pogo" or "Attracto", for magnetic domes on the surface.  That is a satellite may partially navigate by repulsing or attracting on these magnetic domes.  Fun, maybe.  And indeed maybe a part of a greater system to protect Mars, and even move objects in orbit lower<>higher.  with less propulsive mass needed.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#117 2020-07-15 06:15:14

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Interesting article.
https://selenianboondocks.com/2020/06/a … d-to-mars/

Creating an Earth-strength magnetosphere on Mars appears to be quite achievable using a buried magnesium boride superconducting loop.  We would need about 30million tonnes of material to build a loop all around the equator.  The energy contained in the field would be equivalent to the Earth's annual consumption of electric power for one year.  But once charged, it should remain charged.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#118 2020-07-15 07:18:52

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

For Calliban re #117

Thanks for posting the link to that ** very ** interesting study!

As a stretch, (but with less mass), that concept might work for the Moon ...

(th)

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#119 2020-07-15 08:39:44

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

The article suggests that a field could be created using multiple loops and that this would reduce the total material needed.  It is always easier if we build something up incrementally, starting with a weak field and gradually building up its strength.

A magnetosphere on the moon would be valuable, as it would shield the surface from solar flares.  Also, solar wind particles would stream down the field lines until they hit the regolith in polar regions.  This sort of slow sputtering should allow the gradual buildup of a thin atmosphere.  Even a 0.1mbar atmosphere would valuable in shielding the surface from micro meteorites.  With this sort of protection, we could start growing crops in pressurised greenhouses on the surface of the moon.

A single 10km diameter comet would deliver that much gas to the moon.  Alternatively, if we were prepared to wait long enough, leakage from habitats, reduction of metals and rocket exhaust would create an atmosphere that thick without us even trying.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-07-15 08:59:10)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#120 2020-07-15 16:54:02

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

The coil even with being made with superconductors will still lose energy along its length.
The dc power source needs to be of a high voltage to keep conductor size down to make a field in a single direction. Ac source power would cause a fluctuating field that switches direction a the cycle frequency.
The field that is created will only travel a short distance from the surface of the conductor and as you get farther from that conductor the strength will drop off.

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