Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut · 2019-11-17 18:42:33

The exodis started back in the 70's, 80 and 90s for many of what were staple manufacturing indistries as we could not pay more than a minimum wage and make a profit.

Its only through the taking advantage of low wage that the goods can still be provided here without rising of consumer costs when compared to if it were made here.

The act of not being able to control waste product without some one else stepping in to regulate it is the fault of the business and not the regulations which are safe guards to protect all from being harmed. Control of hazardous waste is the business responsibility.

Now over taxation thats a different problem...

Oldfart1939 · 2019-11-17 20:11:07

SpaceNut-

Just too many misstatements and fallacies there to deal with briefly.

The Real exodus began in 1999, shortly after China was admitted to the WTO at behest of William Jefferson Clinton. Chinese products drastically undercut American made goods with products of very shoddy quality; but all that mattered to the "bean counters" was the bottom line paid for the products. The trade agreements allowed Chinese chemicals into the country with zero protective tariffs; ditto many other industries were destroyed as a result.

Your comment about regulations being needed implied guilt until proven innocent for the industries involved. What
"regulated" the chemical industry before was the legal liability of improper disposal. Yeah, back in the "good old days," there were some very bad actors, including waste disposal companies. The industry was pretty good at self regulation, otherwise.

Without the Chinese competition, a country where there is no word for "pollution," manufacturing costs determined the FMV for any product.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-17 20:49:10

In 1970, blue-collar jobs were 31.2 percent of total nonfarm employment. ... the job loss in mining has been concentrated in the coal industry. The steel crisis was a recession in the global steel market during the 1973–75 recession and ... The American Iron and Steel Institute finds employment in the steel industry ... Although the bulk of job losses occurred in the 1974-1986 period.
Factories and workers losing their jobs, while imported goods line store shelves and sales lots. Although ... reallocation of workers to other industries. In many trade .... 1970s that we ran steady trade deficits. This included the textile industry and shoes. By some measures, over 30 million individuals lost their jobs, and the rate of .... may have their roots in events beginning in the United States in the mid-1970s.

What happened to American jobs in the 80s result was better products made faster in Japan, and jobs lost ... of good blue-collar jobs disappeared from US industry, as it turned out ...This included products made in Tiawan for the commercial electronic fields of TV's, Vcr's plus more. Nearly 6 million American factory workers lost their jobs. The drop was unprecedented—worse than any decade in US manufacturing history. Even during the Great Depression, factory jobs shrunk by only 31%, according to a Information Technology & Innovation Foundation report. The idea that manual work can be carried out by machines is already ... the option of moving from routine jobs in one industry to routine jobs in another; ... in the 1980s provoked further hand-wringing over potential job losses.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-19 19:56:05

15-states-where-poverty-is-worse-than-you-might-think
So where is your state?

Jul 24, 2009 $7.25 for all covered, nonexempt workers (15080)
Income for a family of 4 for each state thats considered poor

kbd512 · 2019-11-19 20:03:18

SpaceNut,

If getting a hamburger at Mickey D's cost $10 vs $1 to pay whatever you define as a decent wage, then how many people do you suppose could afford to eat a hamburger at a restaurant to begin with? For someone so concerned about being able to go to a restaurant, you don't seem to think very far ahead. Could you afford to buy lunch, at those prices? Is this your way of ensuring that nobody can afford a hamburger for lunch? How long will the restaurants remain in business? I only ask because most restaurants are no more than a month or two from bankruptcy at current prices.

Slaves don't get paid. That's part of the definition of slavery. I know that our socialists are quite fond of redefining words to mean what they want them to mean, but I'm going to stick with the dictionary definition in this case, however inconvenient that may be to their case. On that note, socialists really need to stop trying to culturally appropriate our dictionary. It's insulting to dictionaries, if not also to uncommon sense and basic reasoning to boot.

Poor is subjective. Poor compared to who? I'm "poor" compared to Bill Gates, yet you'll never see me voting for the evil socialists / communist clowns who say they want to take his money from him, at the point of a gun no less, through the power of our government. The use of violence is just more hypocrisy from people who say they don't believe in using violence- unless of course it's to take whatever they want, whenever they want, from whomever they wish to take it from. That said, why envy the rich man his money when you could become just like him, if money is what you value most? If that's not what you value most, then don't expect to live like he does. Despite the incessant assertions that the rich do nothing to earn their money, we all know that's ridiculously misleading, if not completely false. A fool or a slacker and his money are easily separated and there's no shortage of separators out there.

Nobody "gets lucky" hundreds or even thousands of times. That simply does not happen. At some point, a modicum of skill is involved. There's enough paper backing that statement to bury any argument to the contrary- to the point of making Everest look like a speed bump. Dan Pena didn't become a billionaire by being clueless about how to broker a buy-out deal. President Trump didn't become a billionaire by not knowing how to develop real estate. It's simple and trite to criticize their failures from the cheap seats and make claims about them that you can't back up, but you've never had to walk a mile in their shoes. Until you start taking the risks that they take, you never will. That's seems to just be the natural result of squandered potential; a fate that men such as these will never know.

Lambasting everyone else's results, without ever having to face the gauntlet yourself to find out where you end up in the grand scheme of things, is the easy way out. Most will swiftly "discover" that they're not nearly as smart or as skilled as they think they are. The "rich" have the courage to actually try, the understanding that they can still fail despite all of their best efforts, and the wisdom to distinguish what's necessary to achieve their goals. Those who lack those qualities won't be rich for long, no matter how much money they have in their pockets. As such, I tend to favor the man in the arena, despite his many trials and failures. That's the difference between someone who revels in the mess that is life and someone who turns their nose up at it. I love a good test and can't even fathom why others wouldn't.

Unions exist because the majority of workers are too weak-minded to seek out better terms of employment and compensation on their own. The overwhelming majority of them also lack the skills and courage to actually run a business, else they'd start their own business and work for themselves if they wanted to be paid what they think they're worth. That also means submitting themselves to the judgement of their customers regarding what they think they're actually worth. As long as you're working for someone else, you're necessarily selling your labor at less than market value. If that's not a trade you're willing to make, then you need to work for yourself- whereupon you have no one else to blame for your success or failure in business but yourself. For some strange reason, all envy of the rich man typically ends there.

Every time I've sought out better terms of employment, I've been successful. I know that seems like a crazy concept, but it happens to work. There was no union involved, no fighting, no carrying of signs while chanting mindless nonsense in the street, and no voting for people for the petty and capricious reason of wanting what someone else has. It was just a simple acknowledgement between myself and my employer that we had a fundamental disagreement over terms and that we needed to part ways. Since both of us were typically quite gracious about it, sometimes we even worked with each other at later dates. Turns out that a little bit of courtesy and fairness towards your employer goes a long way. The things that can be accomplished with simple, clear, and polite communication never cease to amaze. If you're going to become bitter or resentful about your terms of employment, then you should already know it's time to move on. I happen to enjoy the long hours and endless stream of problems that force me to think about how to best solve them. I'd be bored to tears without them. It gives me something interesting to do. It took longer than I thought it would to find something that I enjoyed and was good at, but eventually that happened because I kept trying new jobs until I discovered my career.

Decide which problems you wish to have, because the problems are inevitable. Do you want the problems of the poor man or the rich man? You can either stave off the communist hordes, who will argue endlessly about why it is that they should be permitted to squander everything you've worked for, while you simultaneously try your best to retain good employees and run a profitable business, or be content to be someone else's employee and accept whatever pay you agreed to, or move on.

How will you be remembered? As someone who could've been so much more, or as someone who gave everything and let the chips fall where they may? I'm of the opinion that we should all aspire to greatness. The beauty of a society run on free market principles is that you get to define that and your customers likewise get their say in the matter. The results just happen to be better than any of the various other systems that we've tried from time to time, which is why it's been around so long. We will not achieve greatness through envy of others, nor will we solve the rest of the world's financial problems without first solving our own. Of that, I'm quite certain.

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-19 20:31:49

For kbd512 re #305

Unions exist because the majority of workers are too weak-minded to seek out better terms of employment and compensation on their own. The overwhelming majority of them also lack the skills and courage to actually run a business, else they'd start their own business and work for themselves if they wanted to be paid what they think they're worth. That also means submitting themselves to the judgement of their customers regarding what they think they're actually worth. As long as you're working for someone else, you're necessarily selling your labor at less than market value. If that's not a trade you're willing to make, then you need to work for yourself- whereupon you have no one else to blame for your success or failure in business but yourself. For some strange reason, all envy of the rich man typically ends there.

This paragraph stood out as I read your post.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-20 10:26:35

For SpaceNut re topic in general ...

The article at the link below introduces a new concept (for me at least) ...

Actually, the concept is as old as the first cell on Earth, but this is new packaging for the modern age.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20 … tor=ES-213

Fratto says AQ is not just the capacity to absorb new information,but the ability to work out what is relevant, to unlearn obsolete knowledge, overcome challenges, and to make a conscious effort to change. AQ involves flexibility, curiosity, courage, resilience and problem-solving skills too.

I suspect that the foundation of knowledge and skill (and experience if you can get it) remain as important as ever for earning a living, let alone a comfortable one.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-11-20 18:14:10

In the U.S., state right-to-work laws pertain to labor unions and workers at a company. Specifically, the right-to-work means that employees are entitled to work in unionized workplaces without actually joining the union or paying regular union dues. They may also cancel their union membership at any time, without losing their jobs.

At-Will Agreements. To reinforce their right to fire at will, many employers ask job applicants and new employees to sign a written statement agreeing that they are (or will be) employed at will. Such a statement might appear in an employment application, an employment contract or offer letter that the employer asks you to sign and return,...

In its simplest definition, “at-will” is a common-law doctrine that defines an employment relationship between an employer and employee in which the employer has the right to terminate the employee at any time with or without cause and for any reason. Similarly, the employee is free to quit employment at any time without cause or for any reason. The doctrine also allows employers to increase or reduce wages, alter benefits, or otherwise change employee terms.

That said and its happened to me that when I thought that I should get a raise for the good work and level of quality was justified and asked for such a raise stating the facts I was dismissed... In Trumps words You're Fired. ... Why is it so has to do with the wage that they can cheat with by getting a new employees that they can pay less and offset costs listed under training for that new employee...

So when someone feels that they are a working slave, never getting ahead of bills they take the stance of why work if I can get assistance for not working at the same level as if I had worked. Break the cycle is what needs to happen...

SpaceNut · 2019-11-20 18:32:52

The acquired skills to keep up without investment by the employer seems to be a new trend with the hope that young employees teach skills to the older generation and that the old generation share there learned skills with them. This is part of a new High velocity learning concept but it lack the sustainability with out a constant flow of new hires and a capturing of old tribal knowledge that the older generation has to paper. The problem is that the skills taught by the older generation is getting less over time as the rate of retirement exceeds the learning cycle passing on that knowledge.
When it comes to employer training they want to know not only did you did recieve the knowledge with a test but after a period of time there is a recheck to see that you retained that training.

kbd512 · 2019-11-21 19:35:41

SpaceNut,

If you feel you're getting a raw deal out of life, financially speaking, then it's time to change jobs or careers or do something other than what you've always done, which, from what you've said about it, has always garnered the results you've experienced. It sounds to me like it's time to work for yourself. If you're still not financially successful, then there's only one person left to blame. You also get to set the terms of compensation, which means you could put some of your ideas into practice to see how well they work out.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-21 20:20:34

That was the years before this last decade that were so crappy...Which while I did work above the minimum wage due to family size it did not earn enough to be much above poverty bases on the member count. I also did do a stint sub contracting and self employed but even after long hours in the electronic field there was still to low of an income to sustain it as the economy soured.

I am still looking at many of the things we talk about here to create a business in my state, which does support the space industry....

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-22 06:09:57

For SpaceNut re #311

I was glad to see your reply to kbd512 #310, because encouraging someone to take risks is a two edged sword.

It sounds (as I interpret your reply) that you are a careful risk taker, which is what I try to be. In general, I've tried to take risks with assets I could afford to lose, and then work hard to try to achieve whatever the goal was.

Trying to move from participation in a group activity to sole proprietorship is particularly challenging, because (as you have already demonstrated) a sole proprietor must wear ALL the hats that are distributed in group enterprises.

I tried sole proprietorship for a while, and managed the details of tax reporting alright, but I discovered to my dismay that I have two fatal flaws which I did not realize before taking the risk of an independent venture. I am shy about asking for the amount I needed to be profitable, and (even worse) I was not as good at sales as I thought I was, or more importantly, as I needed to be to be successful.

Your concluding line is what I find most encouraging about your reply. I think it fits my situation well, and perhaps it works for others as well.

kbd512 ... I ** think ** from reading your posts for a while, that you had a knack for risk taking to start with, the ability to manage finances well enough, and most importantly, the ability (and stamina) to carry out the sales activity you needed to find your paying clients.

My feeling (not yet having achieved break even) is that successful entrepreneurship is a skill set that be achieved, but that it is by no means likely until a series of failures have helped an individual to identify points of weakness which must either be addressed or circumvented.

A number of other factors are in play when someone tries to create a business, whether a sole proprietorship or a group endeavor. The environment needs to be supportive, for one thing, and at the moment, I see (and experience) a lot of very positive flows going on in the global economy, although there certainly are lots of counter currents and risks.

Heck, that is essentially what (I think) the stock markets are reflecting.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-11-22 06:10:54)

kbd512 · 2019-11-22 21:57:55

tahanson43206,

Everything in life is a risk, including doing nothing at all. Nothing about that is an Earth-shattering revelation. For the most part, we're all a bunch of old men and women here, so I know that we have experienced enough of life to already know this. This isn't about explaining how life works to a bunch of young kids. I'm re-emphasizing what should be remembered when we discuss this topic.

If you work for yourself, then you no longer get to blame other people for your own financial situation, as that is dictated by your skill and knowledge regarding how to best run your business and your ability to effectively communicate and cooperate with everyone else involved in the business venture. In a country with more economic opportunity than you can shake a stick at, blaming other people who have been more successful than you've been is a cop-out, and a very cheap one at that. Claiming that they did nothing to become wealthy, yet somehow wound up being economically successful, is pure self-deception. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's hard to be objective when it comes to your own life. However... If you wish to identify root causes that created the situation you find yourself in (good or bad), then you must remain objective. If something isn't working as well as you think it should, then it's time to admit that you, rather than the rest of the world, have a problem. That's the first step towards resolving financial problems. The second step is doing something constructive to try to resolve the problem. The third step is evaluating the effectiveness of the solution under experiment. The forth step is repeating the first three steps, either refining the original solution or wholesale changes if that original solution was grossly ineffective, as required. It's an iterative process and always has been.

The homeless population of our country has defaulted to doing as little as possible to survive. That's never worked very well for humanity in the past and there's no reason to expect it'll work better in the future. We can all see the results when that's as much as they're willing to contribute back to the rest of society. The only people who are ultimately going to solve their problems, or not, is them. I can't do it. You can't do it. No other person or group of people can do it, either. It's a bit like believing you're going to do or say something that causes someone to stop being afraid of something. It's a quaint idea, but that's as far as it goes. On that note, if you think a government that can't pass and adhere to a budget is going to somehow wisely distribute other peoples' money to those most in need, then you're only deceiving yourself. Nothing of the sort will ever happen, nor has it ever happened in the past, which is precisely why we (individually and collectively) still have so many financial problems.

What we see going on right now is a little taste of what's possible when our government stops erecting barriers to economic prosperity. It's not a guarantee of economic prosperity, not that any such guarantee could ever be made. It's a "green light", if you will. It's letting everyone in business know that it's A-OK to start a business and be successful.

We don't need, and in my opinion, don't want a government or politicians or academics that scold businesses for their success, actively erects barriers to success, creates prejudicial policies that hurt American workers, or capriciously and disproportionately takes from them for the crime of being successful. In a capitalist society, being successful in business should be viewed as a good thing, from the individual to the country as a whole. It should be incentivized, not looked down upon.

Anyone teaching zero-sum / limited pie / capitalism is bad nonsense in our schools, which are just another business (it's product is an educated workforce who can then go on to do useful things, but it's a product nonetheless), should be expelled for promoting self-destructive and subversive behavior. There are plenty of other places for socialists and communists to go in this world if they so dislike capitalist societies. In capitalist societies, we do not prevent anyone from seeking out better lives through our free-market capitalist system, however easy or difficult that may be. If anyone thinks they will accomplish self-fulfillment through socialism / communism, then they should seek life outside of capitalist societies. We don't need teachers, who are supposed to be educating our students, actively undermine the foundational principles of our society by teaching that the capitalist activities that have made our nation so successful are lesser than the compelled speech and behavior of communist societies. We don't need any of them "re-imagining" history as it never was, either. Just tell it like it was, with all the good and bad thrown in for context.

It's rather odd that none of these communists have decided to band together and, using their own money and labor, practice their favored ideology without coercing participation from everyone else through the power of government. Then again, these supposedly creative people can never seem to make their economic policies work without an infinite supply of other peoples' money and labor and complete blind obedience to the ideology (something they're unlikely to ever have whenever humans are involved). After so many unsuccessful attempts, any objective measure of history would look upon envy of wealth and squandering of wealth as the folly that it truly is- which would be precisely why we don't need any of our academics "re-imagining history as it never was".

So... What can we realistically do about poverty?

Force people to solve their own problems- because that's the only way they can ever actually learn from their mistakes, however painful that needs to be, discourage self-destructive behavior, and incentivize voluntary cooperative behavior that has been proven to produce better outcomes. This isn't a policy prescription for those with mental health problems, which require medical attention and reconstituting our mental health care system- something I am prepared to pay more taxes to support. Instead, it's a policy prescription for nearly everything else. We need to clearly define our ethos, as a society and nation-state, and then try to live it out as best we can.

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-22 22:35:00

For kbd512 re #313

Thank you for your detailed contribution to this topic ....

You've made a number of points, and it is difficult to find one to highlight, but I found this section particularly interesting:

Force people to solve their own problems- because that's the only way they can ever actually learn from their mistakes, however painful that needs to be, discourage self-destructive behavior, and incentivize voluntary cooperative behavior that has been proven to produce better outcomes.

Do you have time to develop this thought a bit further? I doubt you meant "force" in the sense of government doing something to people, but unfortunately the word has multiple uses and English (Louis' favorite language) does not permit distinction without modifiers.

As a point of clarification ... earlier in your essay, you cited an ideal state of capitalism. I'm sure you did not intend to overlook the behavior of some human beings in denying the benefits of capitalism to entire classes of people for centuries.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-11-23 11:27:39

Problem solving in education is something that is not taught, sure math and physics are as close as it comes but its stopping short on how its used in life.

Were you taught anything about retirement?
How the 50 states tax retiree
or here for no slides
https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/ret … m=referral

How about the costs of healthcare?

The list goes on and on for what we are not taught anything and its through the life of hard knocks that we learn and from each other whom are in the same straights.

You might have been told that you will get a job and have your life but the details of paying for a home, rent, food, taxes were all devoid of any information.

How do you solve being in survival mode to having that dream of happiness?
Remembering that you can only walk to where ever you can go, that the only clothing and place to clean ones self up, is in the rest rooms of a conveince store, that to keep any appointments for aid you walk to, where you are not looked at for not being employable....
Sure there are those that want the life while there are some that can not get out of that life as thats the work to survive....

kbd512 · 2019-11-23 17:25:41

tahanson43206,

By "forcing people to solve their own problems", I actually meant "stop trying to solve their problems for them". Throwing more money at people who haven't managed their money very well in the past is not actually helping them. It's just continuing the cycle of enabling bad behavior. Pain is a necessary feedback mechanism that lets you know that something is wrong. It's probably not even a conscious thing that they do, which is why it's such an insidious problem. By "bad behavior", I don't mean that they just went out and gambled all of it away or snorted a line of coke as long as the state they live in. It could come down to plain old ignorance or inexcusably poor planning, but it's quite likely to be a clearly recognizable pattern of activity that produced undesirable results. The idea that you're going to come in and disrupt their "pattern of bad financial behavior" by throwing more money at them is, well, laughably absurd.

If someone can't figure out how to balance a check book or create and adhere to a budget, then no amount of money is going to solve their financial problems. In point of fact, giving them more money will only magnify the problem. Exhibit A, or prime case in point for proving that such is the case when it comes to financial problems, is our very own US Federal Government. Every year they take in trillions of dollars of our tax money, and every year they exceed the budget they passed, assuming they even bothered to pass a budget during the course of their petty bickering over allocation of our tax dollars. It's something that should either be taken out of their hands entirely until such time as we can elect or appoint financially responsible individuals, or the American people need to keep cycling through politicians until we find some who are financially responsible.

Looking back over history, we will see instances where practices such as slavery were permitted to exist in capitalist systems. That practice was clearly against capitalist principles, and in my opinion it was also inherently evil to boot. Slavery had already been abolished for about 40 years by the time my ancestors first came to America in the early 1900's. There was never anyone else working the land on their small subsistence farms but them. They managed to produce just enough food to not starve to death during the Great Depression. As Catholics, they were reminded by their churches of their duty to feed the poor, which they did, as their children continue to do to this very day, both here in America and in other countries.

However, we also can't find a single example of an economically successful socialist / communist system over that same period of history (and no, running a socialist wealth redistribution system that's relying on capitalism to produce the wealth it consumes doesn't count), nor any other form of totalitarian dictatorship, that ever brought about economic prosperity for the people living under it. All we can find, under dictatorial systems of governance, is the exact opposite of prosperity. Nearly everyone lives in abject poverty (that's what socialists / communist actually create, whenever they start talking about "equality"), there's far more indoctrination than education (because they can't afford to have people thinking for themselves and striving for something better), and the abundance of the capitalist system is replaced with extreme scarcity (a natural result of having the people who are the absolute worst at organization of resources running an economy). If economic prosperity is not defined as making everyone equally poor, destitute, and ignorant, then no totalitarian system will ever have that effect.

SpaceNut,

First off, you're always in survival mode. If you're not, then you're not long for this world. Maybe you're talking about how often you think about survival or how worried / stressed out you are about it. That's entirely subjective in nature. I've known multi-millionaires who were constantly worried about their money, despite having a lot more of it than the average person. I've also met free-spirit types, with less than a month's rent to their name, who scarcely thought about their finances. I would wager that there are very few people who are unable to get to where they need to be to show up for work. With 95%+ of those who are employable to begin with (meaning aged 18 to 65) managing to do it day in and day out, I think most of us have figured out how to get from Point A to Point B, by whatever means necessary.

Applying problem solving skills to practical situations is not something most teachers know how to do because many of them have never had to apply their education to a practical problem outside of academic settings. Most of them do have superb organizational skills, which is why they can become teachers to begin with. However, practical problem solving is something that's sorely lacking in primary education.

They used to teach home economics in schools, along with other useful skills. Part of home economics was balancing a check book and creating a budget. Another part of the class was learning how to prepare your dinner by following recipes. There wasn't much education on the law and taxes, though. It was presumed that your parents and clergy taught you the basics (thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not murder, you know, all the things that aren't taught today because we no longer permit religion in schools; maybe we don't agree with every aspect of a particular religion, but it certainly produced more accountable behavior resulting in fewer incarcerations). I didn't learn about filing my taxes or preparing for retirement until I joined the Navy, where we did have a significant number of classes during boot camp and at "A" school and at our first command, so our educational system was never functional in that regard. They also teach you about the UCMJ (following the law), obviously. The law is constantly reinforced, whereas the application of concepts related to the law or other rules governing how something works is not, which seems to be the most significant stumbling block we encounter for all other aspects of life as it pertains to our educational system. I agree 100% that some of these things you're not going to "just figure out" on your own, even if some of us do anyway.

Another skills class was shop, where you were taught how to use machine tools by a crusty old machinist who would give you a piece of his mind if you did anything you shouldn't have done. Basic safety and the application of PPE was taught for use of power tools such as lathes / saws / drill presses / planers / arc welders. They probably wouldn't allow kids to use a lathe or arc welder today, but that's how you learned to value tools and materials. Neither were particularly cheap back then. We also learned how to resharpen saws and drill bits so we didn't have to keep buying new tools. It was a painstaking process, but saved precious money that we didn't have. That class mostly revolved around accurate measurement / following design specs, carpentry, and welding. We made welded steel furniture with wood and tile tops. I think a few students even made cabinets. The coffee table I made is solid enough to support about 300 pounds and I still have that and my tool boxes, one made from riveted Aluminum and the other using wood. Those are about 25 years old now and still just as functional as the day they were made. All that was required was a mind that was willing to learn and the pair of hands you were born with. That guy was older than dirt, but he could teach you nearly anything you wanted to know about how to make something.

The most fun project was making a regulation baseball bat with a lathe, but our parents had to pay for the lumber (ash and maple aren't cheap), which weren't covered under shop supplies. At the end, though, your bat was measured against regulation specs. If it didn't meet specs, you didn't get the grade. It wasn't as easy as I thought it'd be to make something precisely to a given set of dimensions. CNC was just becoming available, so a company brought in / donated one of their machines (IIRC, it was actually in a separate air conditioned trailer or portable). It was more sophisticated than anything I'd ever seen. We had a single opportunity to program and then run that CNC machine to engrave a block of acrylic plastic with a name and design on it. Pretty cool stuff for a group of kids that probably never owned a computer. I was the only kid I knew of on my block with an actual computer in the home.

Some local company donated their old IBM Selectric typewriters to our school, which is where we learned how to type. I still have one (an original model from the 1960's like my grandmother had, not the fancy Selectric III models we used in Junior High). Apple donated some old computers, which is where we learned about programming using the BASIC language.

If it were up to me, which it's clearly not, each school (Junior High and High School) would have an accountant, a machinist, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and a scientist as part of its staff. There would be no dumbing-down of these topics, either, as their employment there would be predicated on subjecting their pupils to a real world skills test demonstrating the ability to take an idea from inception to actual operation. After you pass whatever oral and written tests are required, you're subjected to a practical test, which is the only way you can advance to the next grade level.

The scientist would be there to teach theory and operating principles as well as inventing a novel way to solve an actual problem. The engineers would be responsible for applying scientific principles to a useful piece of machinery to do the work required. The machinist would be responsible for fabricating the design created by the engineers. The accountant would be there reminding all of them that there is not an infinite supply of money available and that whatever they create must fall within a specified budget.

Well... Just my ideas about how to improve our primary educational system through application of practical skills demonstration. College should be entirely reserved for doing "deep dives" into particular areas of interest. In other words, it should be a finishing school. The basics need to be taught long before then. By the time you get to college, all math / history / reading and writing should've been covered and mastered. If not, then we're "doing it wrong".

SpaceNut · 2019-11-23 18:22:11

Thanks for the reply Kbd512,

They used to teach home economics in schools, along with other useful skills. Part of home economics was balancing a check book and creating a budget. Another part of the class was learning how to prepare your dinner by following recipes.

High school classes that were only girls scheduled in as no boys were allowed in them along with typing.

Another skills class was shop, where you were taught how to use machine tools by a crusty old machinist who would give you a piece of his mind if you did anything you shouldn't have done. Basic safety and the application of PPE was taught for use of power tools such as lathes / saws / drill presses / planers / arc welders. They probably wouldn't allow kids to use a lathe or arc welder today, but that's how you learned to value tools and materials.

These were the boys only classes and yes a few fingers were lost to handling errors of safety. They were nearly on the way out when I had done the carpentry class with some spot welding of a tool box. That was the extent to those as the budget crunch led to there final dimise.

each school (Junior High and High School) would have an accountant, a machinist, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and a scientist as part of its staff.

I agree 100% and would go even further to require 1 to 2 years of pre-college classes for those that did not take acedemic classes in regular high school.

During work the other day a supervisor approached me about how to locate a lost piece of materials needed for continued work after getting an answer from the one that is assigned to his working group. His first question was is there anything written as to why the other person can not and would not give aid in locating this part? I replied that there was not but that I would help and then instruct the other in what was done to find the missing part so that they could learn the steps.
Using the acronym and a software search for it we found the assigned work order that did test checks on the part and that lead to the working document that gave all of the how what were and when for whom had seen it. This allowed for another software program to be used to find the number sequence to which had been assigned to the item. Long and short in under 5 minutes time the supervisor had the information such that they could locate the material in the storage area.

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-24 09:26:29

For kbd512 and SpaceNut re #316 and #317

Nice exchange!

SearchTerm:Dialog kbd512 and SpaceNut regarding shop class

Since the educational environment for Mars remains to be designed and put into practice, these recollections from a time now a lingering memory are very much worth preserving.

I note some hints of current interest in restoring vocational education in the local community, with important updates to insure all candidates are offered whatever opportunity can be funded from an always limited pool of always contentious support.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-11-24 10:18:44

Most of the vocational training thou is not in machines hands on but in automatic machine programming and use. The extent of the programming is loading the correct file into the machine and then pressing go once the material to be used is placed in the machine.
The welding is still a hands on vocation all but for large item build such as the pressure vessel of the tanks that just were stress tested.
The autocad is still taught as archetectural drawing or part of mechanical drafting.

tahanson43206 · 2019-11-24 11:40:45

For SpaceNut re #319

Your assertion about a focus on learning automatic machine operation inspired a quick Google search.

To the question: What countries are training skilled machinists in 2019

Google came back with a (relatively modest) 961,000 results. My first observation is that the AI Google is constantly updated for the search function is DEFINITELY getting better. That was a complex question, and I was anticipating millions of results having nothing to do with the question.

The top tier of responses did not answer the question about "which countries", but what they DO is to show that the need for skilled machinists is recognized by some, and that there is **some** effort underway to address shortages in the US.

Forum readers can run the same search if they are interested in seeing the many citations.

The one I'd like to highlight is from June of 2019:

How to Become a CNC Machinist - The Complete Guide ...
https://www.integrativestaffing.com › 2019/06/11 › how-to-become-a-cnc-...
Jun 11, 2019 - Your complete guide on how to become a CNC Machinist in 2019. ... work is highly technical and requires significant training and preparation. ... the country that are looking for reliable, skilled job CNC machinists like you.

https://www.integrativestaffing.com/201 … machinist/

There is a list of 14 skills "required" for a career as a CNC Machinist.

In reading the list, I thought that surely kbd512 and GW Johnson (and numerous others in the forum) would agree with most if not all of them.

However, to the larger issue of where we humans are going, and particularly what we will (most likely) see on Mars and other locations away from Earth, is a steady advance toward placement of individual atoms under computer control. 3D Printing shows a very crude indication of what that future will (most likely) look like, but the Star Trek replicator is a Gold Standard towards which researchers and inventors will be heading as fast as they are able.

Decades ago, IBM demonstrated placement of individual atoms on a substrate of another kind of atom, to spell out the IBM logo. I suspect that operation took several hours to complete.

Meanwhile, Ma Nature places individual atoms in plants and animals in parallel operations that produce trees in years and tomatoes in weeks.

The lesson I draw from Ma Nature is that construction of physical objects under computer control will involve (a) parallel operation and (b) sophisticated programming. In the case of Ma Nature, that programming was worked out by trial and error over millions of years. Humans are likely to do things considerably more rapidly.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-11-24 14:29:37

While the scope of skills require you to have a GED or diploma it does not tell the complet story expected from the worker that they hire.

Math skills: CNC machinists work with numbers and measurements all day long, so they must be comfortable with math.
Technical writing and comprehension skills: CNC machinists must be able to read schematics and complex instructions to ensure items are designed and built correctly.
Problem-solving skills: Machines are prone to errors, and errors in production can spell disaster for an organization. CNC machinists must be able to solve problems quickly and independently to ensure peak performance and output.
Attention to detail: The most minuscule error in measurement can make output unusable. Because precision is so important, CNC machinists must have a keen eye for detail.
Mechanical and technical skills: CNC machines are controlled by computers and operators must understand how CAD/CAM technology works.
Teamwork skills: CNC machinists do not work in bubbles. They are part of the entire industrial engineering team and they must be able to work effectively as part of a group.
Manual dexterity and accuracy: Developing parts and getting production down to the exact inch or millimeter specified by design.
Adaptability: As a CNC machinist, you’re going to face challenges. It is important to be able to adapt to the situation, no matter what comes up.
Fitness and stamina: CNC machinists work long hours doing repetitive movements. There is a lot of standing and walking involved, and it is important to be physically fit.
Communication skills: Professionals must be comfortable listening and following directions, asking questions when they arise and explaining things clearly to supervisors, subordinates and peers.
Time management: There are multiple steps in the CNC machining process. And there are often opportunities to make it more efficient. Having an idea about how long each step may take, load times of raw materials and the time needed to set up the different tools are important in figuring out how long a job is going to take.
Assertiveness: This is more of a soft skill, but it is an important one. CNC machinists must be comfortable stopping production immediately when they find an error, even if it means upsetting people down the production line.
Commitment to safety: This is also more of a soft skill, but it is critical for success. Heavy equipment is dangerous and CNC operators must be extremely conscious about all safety protocols when working with and around machinery.
Strong work ethic: Working in a machine shop isn’t easy. It takes discipline to stay focused amid the stress, noise, and daily problems that crop up.

The level does not address the precision measurement tools of any kind to go with the math which is not being taught in high school.
Technical drawing reading is not a skill taught in high school let alone technical writing ability to follow directions which must use those tools to precisely set up the work properly.
Problem solving will not happen either as its a result of measurement error which must be analyzed to find what is wrong with the setup or graphical interface drawings.

Need I go on....

Companies that have cnc are looking for machine operators (just barely above minimum wage) to push buttons and for the real personnel to correct if errors are found by those that went to a trade school or higher to fix the problem found in production (for a few dollars more an hour). Of course this is from my local areabut afer a bing or google search on "nh cnc machine operators hourly wage pay", I find that New Hampshire, which is 30% above the national average but it sees it could be lower which can be as low as 14 to 15 dollars in many areas.

The average CNC Machine Operator salary in New Hampshire is $45,510 as of October 30, 2019, but the range typically falls between $39,960 and $51,100. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on the city and many other important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession. The average hourly rate for CNC Machine Operator ranges from $19 to $24 with the average hourly pay of $22.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-24 15:49:35

Has some one been reading our topics again as An emerging priority for Powell Federal Reserve Chair: The plight of the poor "That the Fed should consider the struggles of the lowest-income Americans in setting its interest-rate policies."

This has to do with the loan rates and not so much about the poor which can not save for the future let alone invest in ways to dig oneself out of the hole they are in.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-30 17:27:43

'I Have a Ph.D. in Not Having Money'

Aspiring doctors know that tuition is costly; the median educational debt held by medical school graduates in 2018 was $200,000, up 4 percent from the previous year. But less advertised are all the hidden costs of a medical education. Ten years ago, a national study found that over 75 percent of medical school students came from the top 40 percent of family income in the United States, representing an annual income above $75,000.

All that glitters is not gold...or the end of the rainbow for carreers

SpaceNut · 2019-12-02 20:10:42

Top Los Angeles homeless official steps down as crisis deepens

BBXFo6M.img?h=200&w=300&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=261&y=1494

Well its cheap rent....not so much when its taking everything to stay healthy...

"homelessness rise 33% during his five year"
"$780 million in new funding to address homelessness"
"swelled by 12% during the past year as a shortage of affordable housing"
"average of nearly 59,000 people were sleeping on sidewalks, in makeshift tents, in abandoned vehicles or in shelters and government-subsidized "transitional housing" on any given night "

My question is what did the money go to as its paying for staff to assist....

The ten states with the highest homeless rates account for 55 percent of the homeless population. New York, Hawaii, Oregon, California, and the District of Columbia top this list. These states and jurisdictions also have the "highest housing costs" in the country.

What should it be for the wage you can earn....
https://pocketsense.com/percent-income- … 39853.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/06/how-muc … using.html
https://www.salary.com/research/cost-of-living
http://amhill.net/2016/08/04/minimum-wa … of-living/
http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-livi … s-history/

So in the states with the high costs the person is already earning more than other states and its still not enough to live on....

SpaceNut · 2019-12-04 21:21:18

This is going to hurt a little bit as Trump administration moves to remove 700,000 people from food stamps under Trump work mandate. The plan will limit states from exempting work-eligible adults from having to maintain steady employment in order to receive benefits.

SNAP benefits cost $76.4 billion in fiscal year 2013 and supplied roughly 47.6 million Americans with an average of $133.08 per month in food assistance.

The new rule won't affect children or their parents, disabled Americans or those over age 50, but will take its toll on those which are work-eligible able-bodied adults without dependents and between the ages of 18 and 49 can currently receive only three months of Snap benefits in a three-year period if they don’t meet the 20-hour work requirement.

Although the economy is adding jobs, many of those new positions offer low-wage work and few, if any, benefits. About half of Americans now work in low-paying jobs that pay a median wage of $18,000 per year. “This administration is out of touch with families who are struggling to make ends meet by working seasonal jobs or part time jobs with unreliable hours".

States with unemployment numbers in the waiver issue points are Alaska, now has an unemployment rate higher than 6%. Seven other states have jobless rates ranging from 4.3% to 6%, including Arizona, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, Washington and West Virginia.

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