France = axis of Evil

dickbill · 2003-04-16 20:48:21

Hello ? Mr Perdue, are you lost ?
I am here,
"Duckbill, your franco anti-americanism gets old after a while. Your old ally Saddam Hussein is gone now, and so are the oil contracts and weapons contracts your president signed with saddam."
First, it's dIckbill, but it's all right.
Jacque Chirac is in contact with the Syrians, don't worry, Chirac gonna sell them tons of ultrasophisticated weapons, like cruise missiles with warheads full of stinky cheese and garlic. And France doesn't need oil anyway since most of the electricity is nuclear producted in France.
" As for flaws in US society, it pales to the deep problems in France right now. 2002 saw a *quadrupling* of racial attacks in France. Synagogues and mosques are being burned down in racially-motivated hatred. Tourists, as always are attacked and spit on by the violent french who believe they are superior to everyone else."
Burning mosques, frenchs spitting on the tourists.... which channel is that, FOX ?
"When France has elected a president who isn't going to go on trial for corruption after he leaves office, or when France has an election where there are no Neo-fascists like LePenn, then you will have room to criticize the USA.
Too easy to answer that. You dare to critic Chirac election ? Do you remember G Bush election, it wasn't a model of efficiency either.
Beside, I see 2 points here: "Chirac is not the white colomb he pretends to be" and "french are racist". First point is true. Chirac has been elected with the lowest score EVER in all french history, barely 19% to be precise, which shows that he wasn't so popular in the french population at least before the US made him a superhero.
second point, frenchs are racists, bad, whatever, maybe, maybe not, you shouldn't worry about that, Mr Perdue, just care about your country and ask yourself if you are so much better than those bad french

Gennaro · 2003-04-17 06:41:49

Because I live in Europe maybe I might be able to make a few comments.

Burning synagogues? The only people who do this are Moslems. They generally hate the Jews but can have problems formulating a rational critique of what they are against (like the after all, not so honestly established state of Israel).

When this type of mid-east "refugees" will become numerous enough, they will no doubt try to impose sharia laws on the remains of the indigenous christian culture, which is slowly adapting itself to being mugged, beaten up and group-raped by those people their leaders claim to help. (As you may have heard, the Europans don't make many children, but do all the work, the moslems are unemployed but produce a lot of children.)

There are also other mid-east refugees in Europe (real ones) who wouldn't be to happy about that, since after all, that's what they fled from in the first place.

It's not about the "r"-word, the "Hitler"-word or the "Auschwitz"-word, although those responsible for the current situation of uncontrolled influx like to throw that around. It's an effective way to shut people up.

Burnings of mosques? It ain't happening.

Le Pen is a French curiosity. He's not a very amiable person in some ways, but the reason he's got a relatively substantial share of the votes in France is due to the situation described above.

Lastly, you won't read about this in European papers cause they are controlled by the official commandment of "turning a blind eye".

Cheers!

dickbill · 2003-04-17 08:15:09

Burnings of mosques? It ain't happening.

luckily not Gennaro, but it's true that there are some antisemits and antiarabs brutal action in France. But not in the extend reported by Perdue.
I've heard about cimetery profanation, paint tags on wall, stuff like that. Well, that's not great, but that's a magnitude lower than burning a mosque or a synaguoge.

Remember the painture tag in the american military cimetery, saying "rosbiff go home" or something like that ? I read that in the french newspaper online, and I knew at that time that this picture of the tag was going to be heavily used by the american media, over and over, to support the idea that france is antiamerican. And it was used this way. Probably a couple of excited kids, maybe of muslim religion but I have no proof of that, made that tag. So what is the political significance of this act versus the mediatic impact it had in the american population ?
It's all about the treatment of information. Anyway, now it's too late to counteract the antifrench wave. We are not anymore talking about good relation but about retaliation now.
Boycotting french product and tourism is not enough, I am sure Perdue would suggest to remove France from NATO, at least.

I wonder how all that stuff is going to finish.

tim_perdue · 2003-04-17 17:43:34

And France doesn't need oil anyway since most of the electricity is nuclear producted in France.

Who would burn oil to generate electricity? Most people use oil for cars. Do you run extension cords to your cars from the nuclear power plants?

Burning mosques, frenchs spitting on the tourists.... which channel is that, FOX ?

Try reading some news once in a while, so you're better informed.

http://news-observer.com/24hour....1c.html

"A national study released late last month said that violent hate crimes quadrupled in France in 2002 to the highest level in a decade, with more than half the assaults aimed at Jews."

http://www.factsofisrael.com/load.ph....?p=http

Too easy to answer that. You dare to critic Chirac election ? Do you remember G Bush election, it wasn't a model of efficiency either.
second point, frenchs are racists, bad, whatever, maybe, maybe not, you shouldn't worry about that, Mr Perdue, just care about your country and ask yourself if you are so much better than those bad french

You're not very smart are you, dick? You are making circular references now. I told you to lay off the US until you've solved your own problems, and then with your limited intellect you turn around and say the same thing to me.

Not too bright.

dickbill · 2003-05-15 16:28:44

So, here is the official statement from the french ambassy at Washington, about the france related informations in the US media in the last several months:

"Letter from Jean-David Levitte, Ambassador of France to the US, to the Congressmen, Administration Officials and Media representatives
Washington, May 15, 2003

Dear [name],

For more than two hundred years, the United States and France have been friends and allies. But for several months, some members of the American media have issued false accusations against France.

The most serious of these accusations share the following characteristics:

- They spread false information
- They all rely on information from "anonymous administration officials."

A list of some of these allegations is attached to this letter (click here) . I would like to draw your attention to the troubling?indeed, unacceptable?nature of this disinformation campaign aimed at sullying France?s image and misleading the public. The methods used by those propagating this disinformation have no place in the relationship between friends and allies, who may disagree on important issues but should not engage in denigration and lies......
...
Best regards,

Mr.Jean-David Levitte

Embassy of France in the United States - May 15, 2003"

and here is the list of the aformentionated "informations":

1. September 1-15, 2002: In its "Week in Review" section, The New York Times published an article entitled "Psst? Can I Get a Bomb Trigger?" alleging that in 1998, France and Germany had supplied Iraq with high-precision switches used in detonating nuclear weapons.

The Embassy issued a denial, which was published the following week in that section?s Letters to the Editor column, noting that a French company had indeed received an order for 120 switches, presented as "spare parts" for medical equipment but that the French authorities had immediately barred this sale and alerted both Germany and the country that had previously sold the equipment that incorporated the switches.

2. On November 5, 2002, the front page of The Washington Post carried a story entitled "Four Nations Thought to Possess Smallpox." According to this article, France, along with Russia, Iraq and North Korea, possesses prohibited human smallpox strains. This "information" was purportedly given to the Washington Post by an "American intelligence source," who mentioned the existence of a "report" on this subject.

At the Embassy?s request, the Post subsequently published a rebuttal from the Embassy Press Office noting that France abides by WHO provisions and by its own national regulations prohibiting the possession of human smallpox strains.

3. On March 7, 2003, Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz asserted that two French companies had sold Iraq spare parts for airplanes and helicopters. The article referred to "a U.S. intelligence source."

On March 8, the two companies named in the story formally denied these allegations, as did the Embassy, which had already given a categorical reply to the question put to it by the reporter. On March 10, the Foreign Ministry deputy spokesperson reiterated the two companies? denial, adding that the French authorities had never authorized the export or re-export of such spare parts and strictly respected the arms embargo and Security Council resolutions. That denial was published, which did not prevent the Washington Times from regularly referring to this case.

4. On March 13, New York Times columnist William Safire began a series of articles entitled "The French Connection" in which he claimed that France had permitted the delivery of sensitive equipment to Iraq. According to him, a French intermediary had facilitated Iraq?s acquisition, through Syria, of chemical components for long-range surface-to-surface missiles. Safire asserted in the same article that "he had been told" that the Soci?t? Nationale des Poudres et Explosifs had signed a contract in April 2002 to provide Iraq with five tons of dimethyl hydrazine, a chemical that can be used for missile propulsion.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman denied these allegations on March 14, noting that it had neither delivered nor authorized the delivery of such products, either directly or indirectly. In his interview with CNN/CBS, President Chirac expressed himself most clearly on this subject. Although he no longer mentioned the SNPE after that, Safire nevertheless continued his attacks in two successive columns. Moreover, The New York Times never published the Embassy?s rebuttal to these charges nor took the trouble to answer the letter the French Ambassador personally sent them on this subject.

5. On April 2 on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough accused France of selling Iraq "planes, missiles, armored vehicles, radar equipment and spare parts for Iraqi fighter planes," and of offering to sell nuclear reactors, without mentioning specific dates.

Needless to say, France fully complies with the UN sanctions against Iraq, including a ban of all weapons sales.

6. On April 21, Newsweek reported the "possible" discovery of Roland 2 missiles by coalition forces in Iraq and implied that they had been manufactured in 2002. A charred Roland 3 missile launcher was also allegedly found.

Once again, the Ministry spokesman had to specify that France had sold no military equipment to Iraq since the summer of 1990 and that it was furthermore impossible for Roland 2s to have been manufactured in 2002, given the fact that they were not manufactured after 1993. This information had in fact been communicated to the author of the article, who made very limited use of it.

7. On May 6, The Washington Times once again attacked our country, indicating that according to an "anonymous American intelligence source," France had helped wanted Iraqi leaders to escape to Europe by providing them with French passports.

Although the author of that article did call the Embassy and included our denial in his article, he nevertheless referred to this supposed "scandal" three times in the following days. The fact that the Foreign Ministry?s spokesman issued a categorical denial did not dissuade the Washington Times.

8. Recently, as reported again by the Washington Times, other "intelligence sources" accused France and Russia of seeking to sign oil contracts with Iraq just before the start of the war. A "military expert" asked by MSNBC about the coalition?s failure to discover banned weapons insinuated that "weapons could well have been discovered" and that they "could very well be French or Russian," which would have led the administration not to mention them "out of concern for easing tensions."

dickbill · 2003-05-15 16:31:35

I forgot the link: http://www.info-france-usa.org/

tim_perdue · 2003-05-15 22:06:53

I wonder if genocide is part of the smear campaign, after all France supported Saddam to the bitter end:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid … ory=406312

Josh Cryer · 2003-05-16 01:30:53

?Propaganda is a much maligned and misunderstood word. The layman uses it to mean something inferior or even despicable. The word ?propaganda? always leaves a bitter after-taste. But if you examine propaganda?s most secret causes, you will come to different conclusions: then there will be no more doubting that the propagandist must be the man with the greatest knowledge of souls. I cannot convince a single person of the necessity of something unless I have got to know the soul of that person, unless I understand how to pluck the string in the harp of his soul that must be made to sound... [T]he propagandist must not just know the soul of the people in general, but he must understand the secret swings of the popular soul from one side to another. The propagandist must understand how to speak not only to the people in their totality, but also to individual sections of the population: to the worker, the peasant, the middle class. He must understand how to speak to different professions and to different faiths. The propagandist must always be in a position to speak to people in the language they understand. These capacities are the essential preconditions for success.?

?[T]he rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitive. In the long run basic results in influencing public opinion will be achieved only by the man who is able to reduce problems to the simplest terms and who has the courage to keep forever repeating them in this simplified form, despite the objections of the intellectuals.?

?The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it.?

?The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly... it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.?

?It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition... that a square is in fact a circle.?

-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister

These thoughts are the reason behind every ?tax cut? every ?lockbox? every ?pro-gun bill? and basically everything you see in current day politics. Ahh, I think I'll go get me some Freedom Fries now.

Good post dickbill, not trying to get into a discussion here, though, or anything, just musing.

BTW, tim, I think you linked the wrong article, nowhere is anything about France, negative or otherwise, mentioned in that article. If anything it insults the US, on several different points I need not even address.

tim_perdue · 2003-05-16 06:20:09

BTW, tim, I think you linked the wrong article, nowhere is anything about France, negative or otherwise, mentioned in that article. If anything it insults the US, on several different points I need not even address.

Blah. France supported Saddam until the bitter end, and profited from him being in power, no less.

dickbill · 2003-05-16 06:57:02

Actually I got the link from the Washington post. The article by Karen De Young, gives the feeling that this propaganda originates from the inside of the Bush administration. When asked about that, D. Rumsfeld denied any plot or organized will to feed the propaganda. But the article point out that he does nothing to stop it either.

I think it was the good timing for the french ambassy to publish that, because of the Blair affair in the NewYorkTimes, it questions the serious of practice amoung some journalists.
Is it normal to make a front page based on insecure information that nobody can verify because it's supposedly classified and which is prooved to be false soon after ?
It also question the serious of the source of intelligence in the Bush administration, before the war, we were assured for certain that tons of WMD existed in Iraq, and possibly nuclear weapons, but the affair of the false document suggesting Iraqi's uranium import from Niger, shows that the US intelligence was not able to recogneize these documents as fake. Frankly, if a "scandal journal" makes such a mistake, it's allright, but not a governmental organization.

It's not just america, Le Monde, in France, has been accused
recently to be partial and inaccurate on purpose. Before that, everybody trusted Le Monde for its serious and neutrality. Now it seems the journalists are not checked anymore, they can write anything possible to make the front page. Money issue I presume (Le Monde has money problem).

Where are we going ? I hope Goebbels will be beaten by Internet !

Josh Cryer · 2003-05-16 15:08:30

Actually, I'm not suggesting that there's a ?conspiracy.? But it's obvious that ?simple and repetitive? is easier to sell to the masses than anything. How often do we see days (especially with regard to cable news) filled with reports about one issue? I think Chomsky outlined the basic problem (almost obsessively so, I'd say), but I cannot find interview I am thinking of.

But, indeed, you even attribute Le Monde's lack of integrity to money problems. So, yeah, it's not related to some sort of offical Propaganda Ministry; it's unoffical, and in many ways that's even worse.

dickbill · 2003-05-16 17:15:29

Actually, I'm not suggesting that there's a ?conspiracy.? But it's obvious that ?simple and repetitive? is easier to sell to the masses than anything.

The Goebbels technique could work with traditional media, like TV or journals but not with the Web. The WWW (should I say the Matrix ?) is too dynamic, too fast. the Internet is not "propagandable". Look at this forum, you would expect to post any anti french news without any trouble, but no, there is a french "emmerdeur" in the New Mars Forum who counterattack with his own news and links.
Probably it's true in all forum and chat list in all possible situation, I mean it doesn't have to be a french emmerdeur, it could be a devilish indian too.
Goebbels would hate the Web.

Josh Cryer · 2003-05-16 20:27:27

I think that you might find that that's the result our very benevolant dictator (and impartial mods). You cannot expect that sort of thing everywhere on the internet. In fact, I'd say, from my own experience, that you can almost always expect the opposite. Unmoderated (or moderated without prejudice) forums are much more prevelant on the net than in reality, though, I agree. But don't think that the net isn't suceptable to levels of it.

Gobbels would definitely hate the net. He would've had a China-like firewall installed had the net existed back then. He probably would've even created an ?alternet? which would make for a perfect propaganda piece. Instead of allowing people from Germany to see the reality of the outside world, he would make them think that the outside world paled in comparasion to Germany.

soph · 2003-05-17 06:23:05

Goebbels might like a closed network in Germany. He might even give it the appearance that it was accessing the outside world.

Gennaro · 2003-05-17 06:28:57

It's been a while, sorry didn't see your reply.

Remember the painture tag in the american military cimetery, saying "rosbiff go home" or something like that ? I read that in the french newspaper online, and I knew at that time that this picture of the tag was going to be heavily used by the american media, over and over, to support the idea that france is antiamerican. And it was used this way. Probably a couple of excited kids, maybe of muslim religion but I have no proof of that, made that tag. So what is the political significance of this act versus the mediatic impact it had in the american population?

- This was about the dumbest thing I ever heard of! And the American public buy this sort of trash? A tag on a wall... No, I don't remember.

Goebbles was for anyone's freedom of opinion so long as they agreed with his. ??? Kind of like political correctness in our democratic societies, I reckon.

dickbill · 2003-05-17 07:54:12

Goebbles was for anyone's freedom of opinion so long as they agreed with his. ??? Kind of like political correctness in our democratic societies, I reckon.

The war in Iraq was a mediatic war as well, that began well before april of this year. There is a french project (supposedly it's Chirac's idea) to create a "french CNN", internationally broadcasted in english of course. The question is: is that french CNN going to use the so annoying 'repetition loop' and scrolling subtitles, in short, is it going to be american or french style ?

FOX uses marketting techniques and quasi-subliminal messages to sale their information. When O'Reilly from FOX speaks, his speach is doubled by a text on screen. It's very difficult to focuse either on his speach, or its written translation on screen. My mind switch constantly from one to the other.
It works because FOX has claimed more audience than CNN for a time.

My guess is that if that french channel is going to be set up (or maybe the french just gonna forget it, and go into vacation because it's summer ) , a french style is going to look very exotic for the american public. Maybe boring, like soccer, because there is not enough "mark", too much blabla and comments, and not enough spectacular images. But we will see.

Palomar · 2003-05-17 13:37:47

*Pardon the intrusion.

I've been keeping up with the U.S. - France current relations sporadically.

There's been talk in the U.S. for quite some time about "the debt of gratitude" France owes us, pertaining to World War II and etc.

Too bad the U.S. has forgotten the debt of gratitude we owe France, to wit: If I recall correctly (and I believe I do), the history textbooks I had as a kid in elementary and junior high school gave most, if not all, the credit to ancient Greece for our concepts of liberty, for inspiring the writing of the Declaration of Independence, etc., etc. Yes, ancient Greece was in the background...WAY in the background.

WHO deserves the bulk of the credit for the founding concepts of liberty, justice, etc.? The inspiration for the Declaration of Independence, etc.?

17th and 18th century French philosophers.

The U.S. Founding Fathers admitted that they drew, in great part, from Montesquieu's writings (particularly his "The Spirit of Laws") in the creation of the Declaration of Independence.

That's just one example; there are many others.

I hope to god the U.S. and France can patch up its relations. While I don't understand various positions the French gov't takes on certain issues, I don't feel the U.S. has the right to try and power-over the French gov't into submitting to its will or guilt-inducing France into cooperation.

I'm wondering if I'll have to postpone my planned 2005 visit to France, all things considered. I hope not.

--Cindy

dickbill · 2003-05-17 15:40:06

17th and 18th century French philosophers.

Without to go so far in the past, I just read something in the New York Times today that could not happens in France because methods are different: in Harlem (important detail) a woman died of heart attack because the police, based on information from a dealer, legally intruded in her appartment and throw a shock grenade ( noise + flash) in her appartment. Problem is, they were at the wrong adress.
Mistake is human, yes, but when you know that human make mistakes, you don't tempt the devil. I don't think the french police would have the legal right to throw a grenade first, without to be sure by some means that their is no baby or elderly people obviously more sensitive to such shock in the room, even if they are at the right adress.
Other example, in Canada this time, a friend of mine was stoped on the road by a police car. The policemen get off the car, approach my friend, order him not to move and put a gun on his head...
They based their intervention on a wrong description, my friend told me later. My friend was accompagnied by his girlfriend who reported that she was absolutely mortified. What if my friend didn't understood english or french (unlikely but possible) or was prone to panicking and moved after the injunction. What if, in addition, he LOOKED like the description of the gangster that the policeman had ? he would have been shot, legally, in front of his future wife, and for nothing.
In France, I am positively sure that the policemen have no legal rights to take out their handguns from their holster, unless they are under direct threat or legitime defence.
It shows how powerfull the request for human rights are in France. It's not a perfect society, but french do their best to fix the many problems they have without impacting the human rights and citizen liberty. So it's safe to go.

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