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#1 2019-09-29 10:54:33

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,124

Entitlements

The fundamental problem is that we have a critical mass of self-centered people who very selfishly believe that the purpose of a government is to give them whatever they want.  Their self-centered thinking operates under the premise that a government is supposed to be Santa Claus and leave little treats in their stocking if they hang their stockings under the side of the fireplace corresponding to the politician promising the most "free" stuff.

I don't give tax money to our government to help purchase things that everyone can and should acquire on their own time and on their own dime.  I'm not asking any politicians to leave little treats in my stocking.  I'm asking them to stop taking tens of thousands of dollars out of my paycheck every year to fund programs that aren't working.  I basically work for 2 months out of the year now purely to pay income taxes on the money I earn from working.  The government just puts a gun to my head and demands my money.  I never get a return on that money, apart from other bandits not showing up at my door to loot whatever is left (which increasingly has not been the case, as I have had several major theft and vandalism incidents that never resulted in an arrest).  Now we have these ultra-regressive socialist clowns demanding even more of my money to pay for their latest wealth redistribution schemes.  They always lie and claim they're only going to tax "rich" people, whomever those people are, but those of us who pay taxes know that they're just lying thieving scum who want to steal more money.  I guess if you have any money at all, you're "rich" and they've come to steal your money using the power of government.

The government doesn't exist to provide any of the following:
* Food
* Clothing
* Housing
* Education
* Jobs
* Health Care
* Retirement Income

Those are all things that a free and prosperous people should acquire for themselves because the purpose of obtaining those things is to enrich their own lives.  You can't concern yourself with everyone else until you first learn how to take care of yourself.  That's what being an adult is all about- taking care of yourself to the degree required that only absolute minimal outside assistance is required for you to live your own life.  Here in America, we have at least as much freedom as other people in the world have, if not a whole lot more.  Therefore, a people intent on prospering under our free and open society, rather than making every excuse imaginable as to why they can't, should exercise mature adult decision making and acquire the things for themselves that they require to live their own lives.

If government-run health care is so great, then all of our politicians advocating for that stupidity should have to go down to their local VA to obtain their health care.

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#2 2019-09-29 13:51:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

We have engaged on the class of funds considered "Entitlements" to which many believe that Social security does not belong in the group as that is a pay in system that has gone ari since its creation. Which was intend to allow for the average person to save for old age when they were no long able to work. It now pays out for the disabled if they have work, those that are born that way plus some other related activities.

The food stamp program was also an aid program for those of poor income and that has change over the years to include even those not working now while I would give aid to the disabled and elderly its not a welfare program... work to recieve is the way it needs to be run and once you get closer to the poverty line its benefits should not go down as you approach it...

I will agree that none of these programs were set up to aid the lazy....

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#3 2019-09-29 16:09:34

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,368

Re: Entitlements

I would agree that good governance should diminish and not increase welfare dependency. But equally the good society doesn't have people dying on its streets from lack of food, shelter or health care. People should be taught to be resilient and develop the ability to look after themselves. The state should be an employer of last resort in my view, as everyone should have the right to work.

How do you see your philosophy working on Mars. It seems to me that, just as at Antarctic bases, to being with most individuals are going to be getting their food free, their accommodation free, their health care free...in fact their salary is probably going into their bank account and remaining pretty much untouched, unless they have a family. Or would you argue your principles should be applied from the get-go on Mars?

kbd512 wrote:

The fundamental problem is that we have a critical mass of self-centered people who very selfishly believe that the purpose of a government is to give them whatever they want.  Their self-centered thinking operates under the premise that a government is supposed to be Santa Claus and leave little treats in their stocking if they hang their stockings under the side of the fireplace corresponding to the politician promising the most "free" stuff.

I don't give tax money to our government to help purchase things that everyone can and should acquire on their own time and on their own dime.  I'm not asking any politicians to leave little treats in my stocking.  I'm asking them to stop taking tens of thousands of dollars out of my paycheck every year to fund programs that aren't working.  I basically work for 2 months out of the year now purely to pay income taxes on the money I earn from working.  The government just puts a gun to my head and demands my money.  I never get a return on that money, apart from other bandits not showing up at my door to loot whatever is left (which increasingly has not been the case, as I have had several major theft and vandalism incidents that never resulted in an arrest).  Now we have these ultra-regressive socialist clowns demanding even more of my money to pay for their latest wealth redistribution schemes.  They always lie and claim they're only going to tax "rich" people, whomever those people are, but those of us who pay taxes know that they're just lying thieving scum who want to steal more money.  I guess if you have any money at all, you're "rich" and they've come to steal your money using the power of government.

The government doesn't exist to provide any of the following:
* Food
* Clothing
* Housing
* Education
* Jobs
* Health Care
* Retirement Income

Those are all things that a free and prosperous people should acquire for themselves because the purpose of obtaining those things is to enrich their own lives.  You can't concern yourself with everyone else until you first learn how to take care of yourself.  That's what being an adult is all about- taking care of yourself to the degree required that only absolute minimal outside assistance is required for you to live your own life.  Here in America, we have at least as much freedom as other people in the world have, if not a whole lot more.  Therefore, a people intent on prospering under our free and open society, rather than making every excuse imaginable as to why they can't, should exercise mature adult decision making and acquire the things for themselves that they require to live their own lives.

If government-run health care is so great, then all of our politicians advocating for that stupidity should have to go down to their local VA to obtain their health care.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#4 2019-09-29 16:27:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

For mars you will have no ability to squat as there is no open air for you to pitch a tent, the habitat areas are not designed for those that are not working via command structure, a trip back to earth is a long wait to be incarsurated if that was the punishment for not working, which means via humanity you now become responsible for health of those that are to be sent back...for Mars you all are working for the state as it were for each others socialistic benefit....

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#5 2019-09-29 16:53:25

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,368

Re: Entitlements

Well yes, if you are contracted to work on Mars but don't, I presume Space X or whoever is your employer will say you have broken your contract and they no longer have need of your services.

But that's an interesting point. What happens next? This is where we start with legal power, constraint, incarceration and transportation back to Earth. What if the person doesn't want to go back?

The Apollo 11 Mission didn't need law and law enforcement officers on the Moon (although there was implicit law - I think Armstrong would have had the legal power to constrain Buzz - and Buzz would have had the legal power to constrain Armstrong if he went insane).  But I think on Mars, you will very quickly be in a situation where you need an explicity legal framework. It will be quite different from the Moon where most activity will relate to tourism.


SpaceNut wrote:

For mars you will have no ability to squat as there is no open air for you to pitch a tent, the habitat areas are not designed for those that are not working via command structure, a trip back to earth is a long wait to be incarsurated if that was the punishment for not working, which means via humanity you now become responsible for health of those that are to be sent back...for Mars you all are working for the state as it were for each others socialistic benefit....


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#6 2019-09-29 17:29:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

Here is the what is known as the Solutions to poverty

1. Social assistance programs such as EITC and SNAP, and especially Social Security, have significantly reduced poverty levels for low-income Americans and their families.

2. Government assistance programs help alleviate poverty for millions of Americans every year, but they are not enough. Private aid programs help make up the difference.

3. Poverty remains a serious problem in the United States despite nine years of economic recovery. “The lack of progress over the last few years of strong recovery means that the economy alone will not solve poverty.”

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#7 2019-09-29 17:37:15

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,124

Re: Entitlements

SpaceNut,

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  If the gander decides that they want socialized medicine, then the politicians writing the laws must be given the same care that the rest of us receive.  There shall be no "opt out" for anyone.  If that's not what our own politicians pushing these laws receive, then we have a major problem.  If Nancy Pelosi thinks socialized medicine is so great, then she needs to receive the same treatment that my fellow veterans have received.  I'm guessing she knows full well that their health care treatment from the VA is abhorrent, which is why their are exceptions carved into those laws for our politicians.

People who work are entitled to receive compensation for their labor.  That is fair and just.  It's also an inviolable rule of the free market capitalist system.  I put that rule above citizenship to any country.  As to whether or not you're entitled to anything else, that is an agreement that should be worked out ahead of time between you and your employer.  What I would never tolerate is workers being legally permitted to walk off their job without getting fired.  That's essentially what Unions have boiled down to in modern times.  There was a time when Unions pushed for important and necessary reforms to labor laws.  Unless they return to basic principles, I won't support what they're doing now.  Anyone who refuses to work is entitled to nothing, even if some specific person or organization decides to make a charity case out of them.

Furthermore, collectively, we should never tolerate any system that simply robs Peter to pay Paul with no expectation that Paul is required to give something back to the system that's paying his bills.  We decided a long, long time ago that we would not permit our fellow Americans to simply fall down and die if something catastrophic happened to them.  It's in our government, our various religions, and our society writ large.  That said, it is not the case that tens of millions of Americans simply have no way at all to give back to a society that's supporting them, temporarily or permanently.  So, we can provide aid when and where aid is actually required, but the underlying mechanism for that system to function shall be an expectation that work is performed in return for money received.  The government is a payor of last resort.

I'm not looking to stop funding our social programs, I'm looking for a fundamental change to how those programs pay out money to their recipients.  Even if you have to ask Uncle Sam for money, it should be an employer-employee relationship unless you're indigent, infirm, or elderly.  Even if I'm retired, I'd rather teach kids / be a janitor at the school or some company's factor or a military base / or do general handyman work like my father does for his Church.  It's good for the brain, the body, and the soul.  You're not simply taking a handout, you're doing work and getting paid.  Yes, you're being paid by our government, but a job is still a job.  If you do the work, you're entitled to be paid.  There's no shortage of work that needs to be done, either.  Our roadways are littered with trash.  I can't even entertain the idea that we can't employee people into perpetuity to clean up and recycle all of our garbage.

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#8 2019-09-29 17:40:58

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,368

Re: Entitlements

You're not clear in what you are trying to do here. Are you trying to "eliminate poverty" or to provide a "state-organised safety net"?

Eliminating poverty is pretty much impossible. We've seen through the ages there are aristocratic people with huge fortunes who will dissipate those fortunes. Today there are people in lower income groups who will simply gamble away any money they have, or spend it on drugs, or just max out the credit card.  There's no way you can legislate for human folly...well maybe in time you can control people's brains and stop people making bad decisions but that is a very Brave New World and not one most of us want to become part of.

Providing a state sponsored safety net is doable and in my view a necessary part of being a civilised society.

SpaceNut wrote:

Here is the what is known as the Solutions to poverty

1. Social assistance programs such as EITC and SNAP, and especially Social Security, have significantly reduced poverty levels for low-income Americans and their families.

2. Government assistance programs help alleviate poverty for millions of Americans every year, but they are not enough. Private aid programs help make up the difference.

3. Poverty remains a serious problem in the United States despite nine years of economic recovery. “The lack of progress over the last few years of strong recovery means that the economy alone will not solve poverty.”

Last edited by louis (2019-09-29 17:42:15)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#9 2019-09-29 18:06:22

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 244

Re: Entitlements

"Providing a state sponsored safety net is doable and in my view a necessary part of being a civilised society."

I would agree up to a point.  The decline and outsourcing of manufacturing from western nations is largely responsible for the rise of an unskilled and poorly paid underclass, who really have no choice but to eek out a meagre existence in poorly paid service jobs.  How can anyone serving the till in Walmart be expected to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to correct a health problem or put their children through college?  These people have no hope without state support.  If the US still had a strong manufacturing economy that provided abundant well paid jobs, then the situation might be different.  But without those jobs, life really is hopeless for a lot of people.

I think Trump understands that, and his attempts to correct it with the trade war are likely to win him the next election, even if they have done little to help in practice.  They are not entirely misguided, in a world in which energy and resource depletion are gradually turning capitalism into a zero sum game.  If I were a US citizen, I would vote for him.  He doesn't have to be perfect to be better than his opponents.  And he definitely isn't perfect.  But he looks like a knight in shining armour when held up in comparison to the Crime Queen Hillary Clinton.  And I suspect that will also be true of whatever creature opposes Trump at the next election.  Most people at this point know they aren't going to get a perfect or even a good government.  What Trump promised was a government that wasn't quite so bad.  And on those limited terms, he has delivered.

Last edited by Calliban (2019-09-29 18:15:23)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#10 2019-09-29 18:14:04

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,124

Re: Entitlements

Louis,

Mars will initially have a military-run government and these problems simply won't exist to any significant degree.  We have ways of making sure that work gets done, even if a few of the people there decide that they're going to run their own program.  One of my many jobs in the Navy was making sure Uncle Sam got his money's worth from people who decided to shirk their duties or had decided that they would mouth-off to authority when it was entirely unnecessary.  I was told from the outset that I could simply stand there and watch them work.  As I thought that was an utter waste of both my time and the government's, I worked right alongside these individuals.  In the military, you're supposed to lead by example, as we were all taught to do, and so that's what I did.  All of the most profound things in life are simple to do, though they won't always be easy or pleasant to do.  I've had many unpleasant tasks assigned to me over the years, both in and out of the Navy, and I simply have to resolve to get them done as effectively as I knew how.

There have been many times I've disagreed with decisions that other have made and I'm also sure that there's been many times that others have disagreed with decisions I've made.  In order to keep the ball moving down the field, you have to learn to accept that sometimes your job is not to tell the quarterback what the play should be, but rather to execute the play as well as you can.  If someone is making plays that result in reasonably good outcomes, then I normally just try to assist the plays in whatever way I can.  If plays aren't being made on a consistent enough basis, then I feel that the quarterback needs to listen to his team mates and try something new or needs to be replaced with a new quarterback.  At all times, it must be understood by all players that they are a team and their job is to make those plays.  It takes whatever it takes and you'd better be willing to do whatever it takes.

With respect to your response about a "Brave New World", that's exactly what our socialists want without explicitly stating as much.  They want a world where everybody follows "social programming" encoded on a microchip or through indoctrination.  They dislike human behavior because they dislike their fellow humans, sometimes for good cause and sometimes without any cause at all.  Unfortunately for them, humans aren't robots, though they refuse to accept that fact.

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#11 2019-09-29 19:08:55

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,368

Re: Entitlements

Yes, Trump has been applying correctives to the selfish, self-interested globalist billionaire "no borders" policy backed by people like Soros, Gates, Zuckerberg and others.

My take is pretty much yours I would say - we see the same fault lines in the UK.

Calliban wrote:

"Providing a state sponsored safety net is doable and in my view a necessary part of being a civilised society."

I would agree up to a point.  The decline and outsourcing of manufacturing from western nations is largely responsible for the rise of an unskilled and poorly paid underclass, who really have no choice but to eek out a meagre existence in poorly paid service jobs.  How can anyone serving the till in Walmart be expected to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to correct a health problem or put their children through college?  These people have no hope without state support.  If the US still had a strong manufacturing economy that provided abundant well paid jobs, then the situation might be different.  But without those jobs, life really is hopeless for a lot of people.

I think Trump understands that, and his attempts to correct it with the trade war are likely to win him the next election, even if they have done little to help in practice.  They are not entirely misguided, in a world in which energy and resource depletion are gradually turning capitalism into a zero sum game.  If I were a US citizen, I would vote for him.  He doesn't have to be perfect to be better than his opponents.  And he definitely isn't perfect.  But he looks like a knight in shining armour when held up in comparison to the Crime Queen Hillary Clinton.  And I suspect that will also be true of whatever creature opposes Trump at the next election.  Most people at this point know they aren't going to get a perfect or even a good government.  What Trump promised was a government that wasn't quite so bad.  And on those limited terms, he has delivered.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#12 2019-09-29 19:09:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

Sorry for the confusion of the topic as its does cut both directions for setting up a society on mars and for seeing how to fix one that appears to say we are working until you look to whom is blurring the lines of needing the help versus those that are just do right claiming they have the right to be lazy.

For the US its about the term entitlement which has had to many things lumped under it.

As for our people congressmen that are to be house and senators for the people they get there healthcare for free rumor is false https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/membe … alth-care/
but ya what is good for the goose should be the same for there use and it would be if they were not over paid bags of wind and paid like the rest of us whom are in service or technology jobs that are not paying enough.

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#13 2019-12-26 10:44:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

So how do we care for the poor, sick of america without making it into a no work entitlement for those that can at a minimum volunteer for a stipen but not a wage.

How do we correct the low paying part time wage paying jobs that we all need and use daily such that they do not feel as if they are dirt.

Automation is used to remove these jobs in manufacturing but not all businesses can be automated with the down side to this is high unemployment rates.

Being a drunk is a disability but its not saying that they can not work in some settings. That some types of disabilities should be exempt from the work requirement with some still wanting and trying to work should be a wanted not a detered status.

Take something as simple as foodstamps with regards to the poverty line..the closer you get your wages to the line the less help you recieve to the point of zero. Should there not be a bit of a shift in the help scale to keep you from falling back down...

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#14 2020-01-16 17:58:57

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,472

Re: Entitlements

Fourteen states, D.C. sue Trump over food stamp restrictions to block a work requirement rule that could force nearly 700,000 Americans to lose access to food stamps.

President Donald Trump has long argued that many Americans using SNAP do not need it given the strong economy and low unemployment, and should be removed to save money.

"Poverty in America is not a choice. "Getting SNAP benefits is the difference between eating and going hungry."

Currently, able adults without dependents could receive SNAP benefits for up to three months over a three-year period, but states have been allowed to extend the time frame.

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