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#26 2019-09-22 17:14:32

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Pascal Lee drove a Hummer across the ice to Devon Island one winter. He video recorded the crossing, was obviously quite scared of breaking through the ice. Stopped the vehicle once on land. If you want to drive across ice, I would recommend an amphibious vehicle such as a Duck. If you break through, you just float, drive like a boat until you can drive onto thick ice.
071603.mars-1.lg.jpg

If you want to build a town with a couple hundred people, then you could build an airport. My job has taken me to northern communities, they have a singe gravel runway with gravel apron. Made from local gravel, quarried nearby. Aircraft I have been on with an airport like this: Dash-8, Metroliner 2, Metroliner 3, Merlin, Pilatus PC-12, Cessna 208 Caravan, Cessna 208B Grand Caravan. The Twin Otter the Society currently charters can land on unprepared ground. Here's an image of the airport at Red Sucker Lake...
1280px-Runway_26_at_Red_Sucker_Lake.jpg

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-22 17:18:15)

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#27 2019-09-22 17:26:36

SpaceNut
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

The other Devon Island experiment is the HMP was established in 1997 and is directed by Pascal Lee, planetary scientist with the Mars Institute and the SETI Institute. The HMP is headquartered at NASA Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, California, USA.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/analogsfieldtest … mp/page/2/

http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=51852

https://www.marsinstitute.no/hmp

The HMP operates a substantial fleet of surface mobility systems, including 12 ATVs (quad bikes), 1 Side By Side, 1 Amphibious Rover, and 2 Humvees, the HMP Mars-1 (red) and the HMP Okarian (yellow). The Humvees serve as analog pressurized rovers, but also as mobile field labs, mobile field shelters, large payload carriers, and medevac ambulances

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#28 2019-09-22 18:40:42

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Interesting. From the website Spacenut posted above. Notice the airstrip. They already have an airport, but it's short: 800 ft. The runway at Red Sucker Lake is crushed rock 1,084 metres (3,555 ft). Dash-8 aircraft can land on a runway as short as 800 metres, but not 800 ft. Metroliner 2 requires 3,000 feet, Metroliner 3 requires 3,500 feet; practically exact match for Red Sucker Lake, not a coincidence. Cessna 208 Caravan take-off distance 2,055 ft. Cessna Grand Caravan EX 2,160 ft.

Twin Otter DHC-6 requires 320 m (1,050 ft) to land, 355m (1,200 ft) takeoff. But that's to clear 50 ft (15 m). It can take off from a shorter runway if there's no trees or other obstacles, which explains the HMP airstrip.
3dcc38_2a08bf66fe95484bbf6efc1d435544c9~mv2_d_2961_1528_s_2.webp
3dcc38_f2f1a9eeb4214ff0b6cf6d4772886066~mv2_d_2988_1540_s_2.webp

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#29 2019-09-22 22:12:56

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Terraformer wrote:

Would an Alaskan location be better from a governance perspective? How does Alaska compare against Nunavut, and their respective federal governments against each other? There are 10x as many US citizens as Canadian ones, so it's a far bigger pool to draw from. How would the Alaskan Arctic Free Cities fare?

SpaceNut wrote:

We might not be able to tunnel but we can trench and bury a tube that is made in a way to allow for the concept of isolated from natural light and to be able to pretend an airlock is featured for entry if not connected to the pipe line system we proposed in Voids topic Plot 0012 in the original business for mars.

The moxie would be a good test article to make for the habitat to fuel concepts with regolith practice for the water via solar concentrated heat with in a chamber methods.

Are you guys serious? You expect people to move there permanently? Ok.

A Mars habitat requires at least 2.4m (8 feet) of regolith on the roof. That's for radiation shielding. But plants don't. Realize radiation is half that of ISS, and the nastiest forms of radiation are blocked. Mars atmosphere blocks 90% of heavy ion GCR at a high altitude location such as Meridiani Planum where Opportunity landed. And blocks 98% at a low altitude location such as the dried up ocean basin in the northern hemisphere, where Spirit landed. The frozen pack ice is in that ocean basin. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a single sheet of paper. Beta radiation is blocked by a few millimetres of aluminum, such as a spacecraft hull. Aluminum of multi-layer thermal insulation of a spacesuit will block most beta. NASA already coats spacecraft windows and spacesuit visors with spectrally selective coating to block UV radiation. Metal of a spacecraft hull will block what little X-rays exist in space; there isn't much. There's no neutron radiation in space. That leaves gamma, light ion GCR, and proton radiation from the Sun. Mars regolith is ideal to block those.

Plants are far more hardy vs radiation. A greenhouse would have the same spectrally selective coating on windows. That's vacuum deposited layers of gold, nickel, and silver oxide. Only silver is oxidized. That metal will block beta and X-rays. Today you can get "Heat Mirror" or "Low-e" windows which has the same silver oxide that NASA developed. Silver oxide reflects IR, so controls radiant heat loss or gain. Commercial windows on Earth don't need extreme UV protection. Greenhouse windows on Mars would be glass, because it's more durable vs dust storms and white sand is easy to find. Fancy fluoropolymer film is very light weight to transport through space, but requires fluorine ore and fancy refining and manufacturing. Standard window glass can be scratched/craze by dust/sand storms, but tempered glass is harder than sand. So use tempered glass for greenhouses on Devon Island, with either "Heat Mirror" or "Low-e" coating.

IR control: long wavelength IR is emitted by warm objects like the floor, walls, carpet, furniture, etc. Short wavelength IR is emitted by extremely hot objects such as the surface of the Sun. That extreme difference in temperature produces significant wavelength difference. Silver oxide can be oriented to reflect more long-wavelength IR, reflect less short-wavelength. That allows more heat in than gets out. Windows in Canada often have two panes. For extreme protection from cold, sealed windows can use tightly stretched plastic film between the two glass panes, effectively making a 3rd pane. Or 3 sheets of plastic film, creating a 5 pane window. This can warm the greenhouse in summer, and extend the growing season. You wouldn't operate greenhouses in winter.

You mentioned "pretend an airlock". You realize commercial buildings in Winnipeg have an airlock. It isn't "pretend", it's to keep heat in. When the temperature outdoors is -30°C to -40°C, real temperature not including windchill, you need to keep that cold out. Connected buildings for heat will be real.

If you want highly realistic buildings to simulate Mars, you could build a concrete overhang, a horizontal awning, over every window. Pile 2.4m of dirt on each one. Use sealed casement windows with two panes and mineral oil between for radiation shielding. However, practicality for Devon Island will require two glass panes with air, and 3 "panes" of plastic film between.

Mars settlements will be built next to a water source. Ground penetrating radar has already mapped glaciers in the sides of valleys at mid-latitudes. There's the frozen pack ice at 5° north latitude; the European Space Agency says it's 45 metres deep, covers an area larger than all the Great Lakes combined, and has more water than all the Great Lakes combined. Or for our European members, it's as large as the North Sea. Sounds like a good place to build a settlement. On Mars you will have to melt that ice, then filter to get mud out. Mars surface dirt is salty, so the ice may be salty. Especially at the bottom of the dried-up ocean basin. So harvesting sea water from the coast of Devon Island would require desalination. You could place the inlet deep enough that it's below the sea ice, so Devon Island won't have to melt ice. In winter individuals could melt snow, that won't be salty.

If you want to hunt, Truelove Lowlands have muskoxen, barren-ground caribou, polar bears, collared lemming, ptarmigan, and water fowl. However, hunting licenses are required and strictly enforced. As are seasonal quotas.

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#30 2019-09-23 02:52:55

Terraformer
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Oh yeah, I forgot we were only talking about *temporary* Mars colonisation on this forum. How dare I expect people to want to live in such habitats *permanently*.

No bucks, no Buck Rodgers. The Svalbard Islands already have a market to support a settlement - and to fund the research. Alaska, too, has people, and if we can attract the Free Staters to the High Arctic, could have a lot more. Alaska isn't Mars, but then again, *Alaska isn't Mars*. The government is more intrusive, but it's a lot cheaper to move to.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#31 2019-09-23 05:50:51

tahanson43206
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck, SpaceNut and Terraformer ...

Thanks to all for adding more substantial elements to a vision of a "permanent" self-sustaining, self-contained community of (on the order of 2750) people on Devon Island.

For those who may be interested in learning more about Dr. Pascal Lee, The Space Show archive lists interviews on these dates:
27 Feb 2018
07 Feb 2017
05 May 2016
27 Sep 2013
25 Feb 2010
10 Jun 2007
23 May 2006
01 Mar 2005
27 Sep 2003
18 Dec 2001 <<== This is Broadcast 24 of The Space Show

In a recent post (I apologize for losing track of the author), someone suggested the people of Tibet might be well suited for consideration for a long term population of Mars, because they are acclimatized to lower oxygen levels that most of the human race.  This suggestion immediately brought to mind the option of China building a full scale Mars Habitat Simulation in Tibet, and since Dr. Zubrin has recently visited China to encourage a Mars Society chapter there, there is a potential something could happen if the idea is developed adequately there.

Meanwhile, I suggested considering the Intuit, not because of physical characteristics, about which I have no special knowledge, but instead, because of psychological capabilities which seem (to me at least) propitious for a climate of cold, low light and isolation. 

Finally, in this post, I'd like to toss out the observation that Closed Life Support Systems are well advanced by the US and Russia, as demonstrated in their nuclear submarine fleets.    A nuclear submarine, modified for research purposes to not include weaponry, could park offshore of Devon Island to provide a warm, dry and downright comfortable rest and recovery station for a crew working on building a "real" full scale Mars Simulation on the Island.

For SpaceNut .... your reminder of the option of building "tunnels" by excavating trenches and then covering them is helpful for planning, since (it seems to me) that building technique is very likely to show up on Mars.  However, by pursuing this, you are (cleverly) evading the challenge of learning how to build tunnels under the surface of Mars (or any location away from Earth where tunnels are appropriate). 

For Louis .... would you have a moment to see where your arbitrarily chosen location for Sagan City (2018) lies with respect to the water repositories mentioned by RobertDyck in recent posts?  If the location you have chosen is NOT close to a known water source, it is then in position to trade for water with other locations which are.  The more commerce the merrier.

Thanks again to all for boosting this topic.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-23 05:53:57)

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#32 2019-09-23 13:08:14

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Terraformer wrote:

Oh yeah, I forgot we were only talking about *temporary* Mars colonisation on this forum. How dare I expect people to want to live in such habitats *permanently*.

No bucks, no Buck Rodgers. The Svalbard Islands already have a market to support a settlement - and to fund the research. Alaska, too, has people, and if we can attract the Free Staters to the High Arctic, could have a lot more. Alaska isn't Mars, but then again, *Alaska isn't Mars*. The government is more intrusive, but it's a lot cheaper to move to.

Sorry. People here take vacations in the south. Many retired people called "snow birds" live in the US during winter, return for summer. Popular locations: Arizona and Florida. My belief: a major reason to go to Mars is to get away from government. I think that's what you mean by "Free Stater". Nunavut or Alaska wouldn't be any more free than elsewhere in Canada or the US respectively. Cold, stick indoors 10 months of the year due to cold. I'm trying to find a reason other than Mars simulation. Anyone who goes just for Mars would realize this isn't Mars, all the same government shit, why be there? So I'm asking for a reason. If you just want to get away, you could move to Saint Theresa Point, or Garden Hill, or Shamattawa, or Lac Brochet. These are northern locations in Manitoba, no road access but there is an airport with gravel or crushed rock runway. These locations have trees.

So Devon Island. Could you ranch muskoxen? I read 15-25 graze in winter, 60-125 in summer in 2006, but the number increased to 2,000 in summer in 2016. Mostly in the southern Lowland because there's food. Do you want to set up a ranch? Perhaps partially enclosed shelters that use solar for heat, enough for muskoxen in winter? Greenhouses for vegetables. Build a major food production farm to supply the north. Caribou are highly migratory, not sure how well they could be domesticated, but their fur is the source of traditional Inuit clothing.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-23 14:57:37)

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#33 2019-09-23 14:16:24

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Free State Project.

Alaska was on the list, but people were all "Give me liberty or give me heating!", so they went with New Hampshire instead. But maybe if there was more stuff up there, they'd make the move.

The Vannokens are heading there.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#34 2019-09-23 16:56:01

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

There should also be ringed seals and bearded seals off the coast of Devon Island. They're not endangered.  Live like an Inuit?

Ps. No trees = no toilet paper. Can you learn to use a washlet?

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#35 2019-09-23 17:53:00

SpaceNut
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

To be an experiment of mars we are no where near going to have harbor seals...

The Devon Island is not a city away from gaining the knowledge to survive on mars...

Its currently not self sufficient or survivable in the sense of being a location test of mars.

Tunneling on an island would mean possible water table which is not a mars issue but I think the main issue is its not allowed.

They are not doing any insitu processing for use.

The greenhouse is in experiment stage not really feeding the settlement year round as it would need to do on mars.

With all of these things the site is a sortie mission in that we came, we went to explore science and we left...

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#36 2019-09-23 20:28:29

tahanson43206
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For SpaceNut re #35

For SpaceNut re #34

I am hoping the vision for Sagan City (2018) analog on Devon Island will expand beyond pup tents and collecting sea weed at some point.

I am envisioning investment of a minimum of $100,000,000 per plot by entities able to afford a pure research investment on that scale.

If realized as I am imagining the community, people would want to live there because it would quite literally be the site of the most advanced technology on Earth.  The concept is to assemble a community able not only recreate 2019 level first tier comforts and conveniences, but to do so while developing the ability to sustain that level of technological living without resupply from outside except for periodic shipments.

(th)

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#37 2019-09-24 06:10:46

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

tahanson43206, you want this to demonstrate new technologies. But a number of new technologies have been available for a long time, they just haven't been used due to corporate greed. For example, I read a paper in the journal Science in late year 2000. This paper was about a new photovoltaic cell. A US federal government lab called the Los Alamos National Laboratory studied photovoltaic technology, and noticed a new cell that theoretically should have a light absorption spectrum that almost exactly matched the Sun, so should be extremely efficient. They went to the materials lab at University of California in Berkeley to build one, test if reality matched their theory. They found it's transparent to colours of light not converted to electricity, which shouldn't come as a surprise since it uses the same metals as the top layer of multi-junction photovoltaic cells used for satellites in space. Satellites use gallium-indium-phosphate for the top layer, gallium-arsenide for the middle, and germanium for the bottom; this new cell is gallium-indium-nitride. UC Berkeley found if you vary the concentration of nitrogen, it absorbs different frequencies (colours) of light. That allows a multi-junction cell using the same chemistry for each layer, just a different concentration. A 2 junction cell was 56% efficient, 3 junction 64% efficient, and 36 junction was 72% efficient. Another scientist later calculated optimal configurations for 2 through 8 junctions, he found an 8 junction cell would be 70.2% efficient.

This was published in year 2000 but no one is building it. Manufacturers of cells for satellites have a multi-decade business plan to slowly increase efficiency from 24% to 45%, gouging customers for each fraction of a percent increase. They have no intention of jumping to 70%. Manufacturers of cells for terrestrial use (on Earth) expect manufacturers for space will pay the millions of dollars to develop new technology, then steal it. Manufacturers for space don't want to develop new technology just to have someone appropriate their work without financial compensation. So due to corporate greed, no one is working on this.

Currently LED light bulbs are sold for household use. Many TVs use LED. Street lights are LED. Car headlights, etc. Every white LED is actually a red, green, and blue LED with a lens to mix the light. Every blue LED is gallium-indium-nitride. So no one can claim they don't know how to manufacture a gallium-indium-nitride semiconductor device in bulk quantities at affordable prices.

You could build a house here in Winnipeg, just 60 miles north of North Dakota, to be energy independent. Completely cover the roof with solar panels. Use gallium-indium-nitride 8-junction photovoltaic, applied to a copper manifold using the same thermal compound use to mount the CPU of a personal computer to it's aluminum heat sink. Run water through the manifold, this will cool the photovoltaic so it doesn't over heat, and pre-heat water for the hot water tank. Solar panels normally fail when they over heat, causing solder to melt so connection wires peal off. The solar panel would have a cover of PCTFE with a coating of Teflon AF. PCTFE is strong and the second most transparent polymer known to man, highly UV resistant, and doesn't become brittle until -240°C. That means it can handle the cold of Mars south pole in winter, the cold of Canada is nothing. Teflon AF is the only polymer more transparent, so forms an anti-glare coating. Teflon AF is a true amorphous, so also scratch resistant. Between the PCTFE sheet and photovoltaic cells, apply thin film of more PCTFE. This forms a multi-layer window to keep heat in. Connect the gap between the last sheet of film and the photovoltaic cell to air ducts. This could heat air for the house. A computerized thermostat could balance heat for air of the house vs heat for the hot water tank.

Also build the house with a geothermal heat pump aka ground source heat pump, and helical windmill, and batteries in the basement. And well insulate the house; R2000 is a construction standard from the 1970s, it's hardly new. And add a heat exchanger for clean air. No natural gas service to the property at all. You could add a high efficiency wood stove, there are some on the market that are technically a wood stove, but look like a fire place. That would act as a backup for the heat pump. The result is a house that's 100% energy independent under worst case conditions; the other 51 weeks per year it would produce surplus electricity to sell to the grid. The electric utility would pay the homeowner every month, never charge. You would be paid by direct deposit with an email statement. Never a bill.

Electric utilities have a problem with net-metering. If electricity can flow either to or from a home, the power grid becomes complicated. But if power only flows from homes in an entire neighbourhood, then the grid becomes easy. Some may ask who would buy the power if every house were build this way. This technology works for houses, shopping malls, schools, any low building with a large roof. It doesn't work for tower buildings, such as apartment or office towers. So there will be customers to buy the power. Besides, factories could do this too, but manufacturing equipment in a factory will consume so much power that they'll still need to buy power. Electric subways and LRT systems will need to buy power.

These homes would cost a little more, but compare the total of mortgage plus utilities for a traditional house vs mortgage plus utilities subtract the money the electric utility pays you. The energy independent house would have a lower monthly total starting the first month. That depends on the municipality charging the same property tax; if they gouge homeowners that will screw it up.

We could do this now. Corporations aren't working on this because consumers would no longer pay them money.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-24 11:55:56)

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#38 2019-09-24 07:31:43

tahanson43206
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck #37 ...

First, thank you for another of your many significant contributions to the New Mars archive of knowledge, insights and tips.

Second, thank you for choosing THIS topic for your post.

Finally, please make this post searchable.  I use a technique to find posts quickly using the FluxBB search tool.  GW Johnson has applied this idea for his series on EducationDoneRight.  If I recall correctly, kbd512 has done something similar with some of his posts.

You have posted a number of articles at this level over the years, and most just flow down the time stream, never to be seen again unless SpaceNut pulls them forward.  Please consider going back and adding appropriate tags to your posts.

The crowning touch would be to then create an index, which would enable someone favorably impressed by one of your posts to find other posts on a variety of topics quickly.

The FluxBB record ID is certainly an available tool for finding posts quickly, so that might work for the index.

To your specific contribution here .... The situation you've summarized calls out (to my ear) for an astute capitalist who sees the potential to take market share from entrenched entities, as Elon Musk is doing with respect to the established space launch organizations.

Therefore, your post could be seen (by the right person) as the seed of a proposal for a business.

(th)

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#39 2019-09-24 17:02:22

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,686

Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Maybe EnergyEfficiency...

The greenhouse (Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse) did burn down but I think it was rebuilt at the Haughton-Mars Project (HMP) site which is run by others.

110711-200443-CAM1-image.jpg

HMP-2002 Cowing Journals
HMP 2003
HMP 2003-Cowing
HMP 2005
HMP Keith Journals 2007

http://spaceref.com/mars/

IMG_0359.m.jpg

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#40 2019-09-24 17:18:29

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

I could post another big idea for houses. Not specific to Mars or the north, but useful. Depends what you want posted here.

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#41 2019-09-24 17:39:33

tahanson43206
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck re #40 ...

I'd be honored to provide a platform for your idea!  After you create it, SpaceNut can decide if it would fit better elsewhere.

In light of the theme of this topic, I am hoping creative ideas will flow easily as members are inspired.

I'll (probably) try to encourage focus on building a state-of-the-art community on Earth, but at this point, any ideas could lead in surprising directions.

My only suggestion is to think about a tag for the post after you create it, so that someone in the future can find it quickly and easily, regardless of where SpaceNut might move it.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-24 17:40:28)

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#42 2019-09-24 21:08:48

SpaceNut
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

We have talked about construction of energy efficient home in the past but I am unsure if the words are still here or gone when the crash happened. Homes for mars will not happen until its teraformed to a level a long ways between its current state and that of earths. We know that man can live in a partial atmospheric presure so we will not need to go quite as far as a full blown earth which makes the most from the least amount of resources.

So when looking at the station and the need to be able to live in the mars cold winters we need power and that is what I think is the first tier project that the island needs.
Now to research tomorrow what can we do as nuclear is out and the solar is a supplemental to a primary which can not be a fuel oxygen system which really is the situation for mars. Will need to re-read the power topics that we have here....
Next question is what energy level is required?

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#43 2019-09-24 21:19:01

RobertDyck
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

One thought is to make a house fireproof. I would start with concrete walls using Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF). Available today, these are Styrofoam blocks with galvanized sheet steel to hold them together. When cement with aggregate is wet, it's quite heavy. That creates pressure to blow out the walls of the form. The steel holds the sides together. Steel reinforcement bars (rebar) are snapped in place in formed notches of the sheet steel. This means a single man can assemble the forms by hand, no need for heavy equipment. Once the concrete hardens, the Styrofoam stays in place, acts as insulation for the walls. I didn't invent any of this, I just find it brilliant. The one change I would make is make the forms out of silicone resin foam instead. "Styrofoam" is a brand name for polystyrene foam. Polystyrene is flammable, silicone is not. Silicone rubber is technically a form of silicone resin, but using the word "resin" implies a more firm formulation. I read about a formula to produce silicone resin foam, but the chemical reaction produces hydrogen gas as the foaming agent. I want something non-flammable, such as CO2. Would require some chemistry. Perhaps simply bubble CO2 gas in liquid silicone before it sets.

Traditionally in Canada, basement walls are concrete with a "footing". The basement floor is poured after the walls have set. As the house settles, the walls sink slightly into the ground. This bends the concrete floor down at the edges causing it to crack. I would like to pour the floor and walls as a single pour, so the concrete sets as a single unit. Give the underside of the floor a moulded waffle pattern, like upper floors of many apartment buildings. That strength should prevent the floor from cracking. The concrete skirt of the offshore oil platform called Hibernia was water-tight, it floated. It was towed from dry-dock where it was made to the drill site. Make house basements just as water tight. So basements don't flood. With a concrete house, the concrete wall extends from the basement floor to the roof. Do so as a single pour. Hibernia was made with slip forms, which means the lower portion was poured first, but before it was fully set the next layer was poured. The form was "slipped up" as lower portions hardened. Each layer was poured before the lower layer fully set. This ensured all the concrete was a single seamless wall. Do that with a house, ensure the basement floor, basement walls, and exterior walls to the roof are all a single seamless piece. This makes the concrete waterproof; basically the whole house is a concrete boat.

Window and door openings for a concrete house have "rough-in" frames set before the wet cement is poured. So the metal frames act as mould for the cement. Rebar is attached to fittings of these frames, ensuring the frames become an integrated part of the wall. If a thief tries to break in, a jack cannot open the window or door frame because the jack would push against the concrete wall. If the frames are not just clipped, but welded to rebar, the frame cannot be pulled from the concrete either. Windows are then set in this metal rough-in frame. Doors are similarly set.

Floors could be made with concrete/steel composite. This is a technique I didn't invent either, it's used for many office buildings. Similar to ICF, the idea is the concrete form is not removed, it becomes an integrated part. A steel tray extends across the entire floor. For the house, this steel tray is attached to the inside of the concrete exterior wall. Steel mesh is laid in the tray, then cement poured. The mesh is lifted while the cement is wet, to ensure it embeds within the concrete. The cement is smoothed with trowels (or large power trowels) before it sets. The steel tray becomes an integrated part of the floor, the underside of the floor. This provides a concrete floor. It also means the floor is supported solely from exterior walls, no interior weight bearing walls. This technique is typically used for office buildings with a span greater than the width of a house.

Exterior siding could be brick, field stone, lime stone, stucco, or some combination. Make it interesting, but use entirely non-flammable materials.

Walls will be well insulated: brick, silicone resin foam, concrete, more silicone resin foam. But that may not be enough. The concrete will act as a thermal mass, but again not enough for a northern location like the city where I live. Interior of exterior walls would be covered with wall studs; the same galvanized steel wall studs currently used for office buildings. Again, steel is non-flammable. Insulate the space with mineral wool. Several brands exist, one made in Canada is ComfortBatt made by a company called Roxul. It has the same insulation as fibreglass, but completely non-flammable. It's made by melting rock, extruding to form fibres, and forming those fibres into a batt before the molten rock treads fully cool. This means it doesn't need a binder. Yellow fibreglass uses urea formaldehyde to bind glass fibres together. Pink fibreglass uses phenol formaldehyde. They don't emit as much vapour as urea formaldehyde foam insulation (UFFI), but do emit some. Pink doesn't have urea, but does have formaldehyde. White fibreglass uses nylon; no vapours but more expensive. All these binders are technically flammable. Glass isn't, but the binder is. Rockwool doesn't have any binder, so it's completely non-flammable and no vapours.

Georgia-Pacific makes a type of drywall aka wallboard aka sheetrock aka gyprock. Their product is gypsum just like any other wallboard, but theirs uses fibreglass felt facing instead of paper. Gypsum is not flammable, but paper is. Fibreglass felt is not, so this makes their wallboard non-flammable. Furthermore, wallboard 5/8" thick with glass fibres embedded within the gypsum gives the board the ability to withstand a raging house fire for 60 minutes before it collapses. And fibreglass felt is resistant to moisture; paper is food for mould, fibreglass isn't. I would use this for all walls and ceiling. Use fibreglass mesh tape for wall seams, not paper tape. And use real plaster, not some vinyl or polyurethane based compound. Plaster is non-flammable.

Most electrical boxes are galvanized steel, but just to be clear, don't use polymer (plastic) boxes. Wall plates for electrical outlets and switches of thermoset polymer, not plastic (technically thermoplastic). Because thermoset materials are non-combustible (aka non-flammable). Use electrical wire with fluoropolymer insulation. PVC may be "flame resistant" but it isn't non-flammable. Certainly not paper insulation of the 1970s. Fluorpolymer is non-flammable. Yes, it's available.

Steel doors. Steel door frames. Commercial buildings use these now.

Evestroughs (that's the Canadian name, Americans call them gutters) made of anodized aluminum. Downspout also anodized aluminum. Soffit and fascia anodized aluminum. Non-flammable, and anodized coating will not crack, peal, or otherwise need painting, ever.

Flooring: marble, granite, terracotta, terrazzo, travertine, onyx, limestone, sandstone, quartzite, slate, ceramic tile. But never use vinyl, linoleum, or even hardwood. Set flooring with cement mortar, not polyurethane compound. Hard flooring in all closets. Because subfloors will be concrete, all carpets will require underlay. Use silicone rubber underlay; non-flammable. Carpet itself will use fibreglass cloth backing, with normal carpet pile. The pile is flame retardant, meaning it will burn, but as soon as a flame source is removed, the carpet stops burning. Baseboards made with Spectra (ultra-high-density polyethylene). It's also flame retardant. This is roll baseboards, so easy to install. If shaped baseboards are desired, use silicone rubber with Spectra facing. This means the only flammable parts of the house will be the carpet pile and baseboard facing.

Bookcase made of anodized stainless steel. Each shelf will be folded metal, the space between the two surfaces of stainless still will be filled with solid aluminum chlorohydrate. That's the same stuff underarm antiperspirant is made of. But while antisperspirant has a low concentration of aluminum chlorohydrate, this will be pure. When that gets hot, such as a fire, it melts. The phase change will absorb heat, preventing heat from one burning shelf from spreading. Sides, back, top, and bottom of the bookcase will also be sheet stainless steel filled wiht aluminum chlorohydrate.

Bathroom vanity counter made of cultured marble. That's marble dust bounded with phenolic. You could get fancy and use real marble, granite, porcelain, ceramic, vitreous china, enameled steel, enameled cast iron. The point is don't use wood, particle board, or plastic. Only use non-flammable material. Kitchen sink is typically stainless steel. I would use granite kitchen counter top. Cupboards made of stainless steel, anodized if you don't want shiny metal cupboards. Sound deadened with silcone rubber inserts. All shelves and drawers of stainless steel.

Water plumbing of copper pipes, not PVC. Sewage plumbing of stainless steel 409, not ABS. That grade of steel has the minimum amount of chrome and nickel to be called "stainless"; which makes it relatively inexpensive. It's the same grade of steel used for car exhaust pipes. It will form a patina of rust, but will not corrode further. It won't rust solid like old steel plumbing pipes. I checked, an importer from China does list pipes of this grade of metal, you can get them. Water pipes have to provide clean water you can drink. Copper kills bacteria, and is needed by the human body so is safe. Sewage pipes have to withstand vomit and diarrhea. Vomit will have stomach acid, diarrhea will have intestinal alkali and digestive enzymes. You need something strong to withstand that. ABS will, and it's flame retardant but flammable. This grade of steel is corrosion resistant, and non-flammable. For joints, use silver solder. Normal solder is 60% tin / 40% lead. Silver solder is still 60% tin, but replaces lead with a mix of copper and silver. Both copper and silver kill bacteria. No lead contamination in drinking water.

Roof will not be asphalt shingles nailed to plywood or OSB. Instead attach solar panels directly to roof joists. The solar panel *IS* the roof. Behind (under) the copper manifold of the solar panel, insulate with more rockwool. Steel truss for roof joists. If the roof has small segments not oriented toward the Sun, roof with something non-flammable: steel roof, terracotta roof tiles, slate, concrete tiles.

Of course my dream house would have anodized titanium alloy exterior doors, door frame, and window frames. With ALON for outer pane of windows.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-25 04:28:34)

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#44 2019-09-24 21:54:21

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

Ok, SpaceNut is trying to get is back on topic. Mars has dust storms that last months. The one that killed Opportunity began as a small regional storm May 29, 2018, expanded to planet-wide mid-June, and cleared beginning of September. Three months without sunlight. Devon Island has no sunlight Nov 5 - Feb 5, that's 3 months. How do we survive? Solar or stored power isn't an option. Wind is fast on Mars, but atmosphere is so thin that force from wind will not push any windmill blades. InSight was supposed to give us an idea what's happening under the surface, is there any subterrainian heat? But it's probe couldn't penetrate more than 30cm. So that doesn't give us hope for geothermal. Nuclear? That would be difficult to get permission. Canada does have nuclear reactors. Ontario power recently reburbished a couple old reactors, brought them back online. They were going to replace a large coal-burning power plant with natural gas, but the cost of that proved very controversial. In the end they refurbished old aforementioned nuclear reactors, at operational nuclear power plants. But that's a major provincial power utility. Getting permission for a small nuclear reactor will be difficult, but not impossible.

CBC: 'It's the future': How going small may fuel nuclear power's comeback

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#45 2019-09-25 07:56:42

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,496

Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For SpaceNut re #43 ...

Now to research tomorrow what can we do as nuclear is out and the solar is a supplemental to a primary which can not be a fuel oxygen system which really is the situation for mars.

Can you please provide citations to support your assertion above? 

Canada is a first tier Nation with advanced nuclear power capabilities.   I am expecting each and every plot in the proposed test version of Sagan City (2018) to be supplied with power from a small nuclear reactor.   To advance beyond Level 0 Civilization status, humans ** must ** master atomic power, and more importantly, the psychological weaknesses that cause humans to harm each other.


https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/energy-s … nergy/7711

Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada plays an important role in fostering the growth of Canadian businesses and in making Canada more competitive internationally. The growth of the Canadian nuclear energy industry is a responsibility of the Manufacturing and Processing Technologies Branch, which focuses on competitiveness, international trade, technology and investmen

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#46 2019-09-25 08:02:26

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,496

Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck re #43

Thank you for this addition to the NewForum archive! 

You did not provide a tag  someone could search to find it quickly.

Please consider at least something like "DreamHouse"

Since you have published more than one article along these lines, this could be "DreamHouse#17" (or whatever the correct count would be).

I'm planning to came back later when time permits, to study the post.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-25 08:02:59)

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#47 2019-09-26 10:57:22

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,496

Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck re topic ...

I wondered if Canada may have national laboratories, and was impressed by the list of large and well funded institutions given in the Wikipedia entry for the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_ … anizations

Nunavut
Nunavut Research Institute
Igloolik Research Centre
Iqaliut Research Centre

The facilities listed immediately above would seem likely (to me at least) to be devoted to study of the native peoples for whom they are named.  However, they would (presumably) be a point of contact to ask if the Native Community in the region would be willing to sponsor a National Laboratory dedicated to full scale testing of Mars simulation, as envisioned for My Hacienda (2750 one kilometer square plots).

With national elections scheduled in Canada in October, I am guessing that of all times, this would be the optimum time to introduce such a bold idea to the national consciousness.

The total investment would be 2750*100,000,000 (Canadian Dollars for this purpose), all under the management of the Native Community, supported by the Canadian government and other institutions. 

The outcome would be a (very) high technology living/working/research facility able to provide all its power, food, air, mechanical systems, clothing, medical supplies and whatever else would be needed for comfortable living according to 2019 standards.

(th)

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#48 2019-09-26 11:47:27

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

The writ dropped for the federal election the morning of September 11, the day after the Manitoba provincial election. The writ is a document signed by the Governor General, it dissolves Parliament and calls the election. Election laws become effective during the writ period: limits on campaign spending, limits on third party advertising, all registered candidates must be allowed access to all apartment buildings in their electoral district, etc. During this time Mr Trudeau is no longer referred to as the Prime Minister, he's simply the leader of the Liberal party. And oh boy Is the campaign in full swing! Election promises and mud-slinging.

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#49 2019-09-26 12:00:09

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,135
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Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

After the 2006 federal election I tried to ask MPs to support a Canadian Mars rover. I attended the 2005 Canadian Space Exportation Workshop at Canadian Space Agency headquarters. The president of CSA wanted to send a rover with a multi-segment drill. He said it would require increasing the CSA budget from $300 million per year to $450 million. (That's right, CSA's budget is in millions, with an "m".) MPs I spoke to said no, claiming it was too much. Ironically, the Harper administration increased CSA's budget that much but no Mars probe. The current Trudeau administration is trimming CSA's budget back. The Liberals were the ones who balanced the budget, reduced the debt, and reduced taxes in the 1990s. Trudeau Liberals are going tax-and-spend, but spending that much on space would be a hard sell.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-26 12:19:08)

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#50 2019-09-26 12:39:40

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,496

Re: Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

For RobertDyck re #48 .... thanks for details about the election process!

For RobertDyck re #49 ... Thanks for sharing your experience with the CSA, and for details on their (to me sensible sounding) proposal for a rover.

Since you have spoken before of Real Estate on a large scale (I'm thinking here of the Vancouver Hillside Condo idea, but there are surely others), I'll try developing a pitch along those lines.  The 100,000,000 per plot would be invested by entities OUTSIDE Canada.  They would be paying for the stability of the Canadian Nation, above and beyond the government, AND (this is the heart of the pitch) for Canadian provided nuclear power plants for each plot.

Those plants would be build, installed, operated, secured and maintained by Canadian companies under the close supervision of the appropriate agency.

Each plot would need enough power to provide for all the equipment needed by the customer, and for all the excavation to be performed.

The entities would be expected to design for Division of Labor and Market trades for everything that would be needed for comfortable, healthy living, albeit in underground spaces. 

The completed community would be ideal for testing the ability of individual human beings to live for a period of years in such an environment.

A number of (to me interesting) live studies have been performed around the world, to evaluate the ability of humans to live in a simulated Martian environment, and indeed, I'm pretty sure there are at least two such studies underway right now.

This concept, if fully implemented, would be a full scale test bed for technologies and for human beings with the objective of achieving successful implementation on Mars.

Edit: I read the article at this link carefully.  The Inuit peoples have had a rough go over centuries.  I can appreciate (to some extent) why they might be skeptical of a proposal such as offered in this topic.  Still, after discussion, they may decide the possible benefits of determining the culture of the community, and participating in its construction and supervision, may outweigh the potential risks.
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/inuit

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-26 12:53:54)

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