Why do we have Poverty in America

Terraformer · 2019-08-03 04:44:34

Fact is, 40 million people, about 12% of the population, earn less than the federal poverty line, $12,490 for a single person and $25,750 for a family of four.

Fact is, 16% of the population have an IQ below 85. A lot of people *can't* do the jobs that pay a decent wage. Obviously, though, if the supply of unskilled labour is reduced, their wages will go up...

On the gripping hand, if the cost of living had gone down as technology advanced, rather than up, a family below the poverty line would still have a pretty good life. A rowhouse or apartment in a traditional (walkable) city, good food, decent education, healthcare (okay, the city/community will probably have to help here)...

SpaceNut · 2019-08-03 19:18:17

What is a walkable city or rural distance for where you live to be able to work. Cities give a higher density of maybe jobs but thats not what we see in most.

The regression of Americas big progressive cities

Was a shot at those that live there, big or small what is described as ills can be found even in towns as small as 5,000 let along 5,000,000 and thats nothing to do with rich or poor as it comes back to nickle and diming expenses such that many have gone the route of its not my problem why should I do anything.

Today I was reminded of that when in a local Cumberland store when a customer was getting an Ice coffee and when it was spilled by the patron getting it. Only to have the group say we need it cleaned up rather than making any effort to do so as if its the stores job to clean up there mess making.

So why are cities and people not getting into the act for themselves cleaning up where they live?

kbd512 · 2019-08-03 20:18:22

SpaceNut,

To answer your question, this is the only thing that can happen whenever "self-determination through hard work and personal responsibility" is replaced with "the government will solve all of my problems". Since the government clearly won't solve all of life's problems, even in a one party rule state like California, when do you think would be a good time to admit that it might be time to try something new? Before or after the golden state looks more like Venezuela than the beautiful dreamland of California that I grew up with?

This is a major part of the problem:

Clinging to Beliefs: A Constraint-satisfaction Model

From the paper:

Beliefs tend to persevere even after evidence for their initial formulation has been invalidated by new evidence. If people are assumed to rationally base their beliefs on evidence, then this belief perseverance is somewhat counterintuitive. We constructed a constraint-satisfaction neural network model to simulate key belief perseverance phenomena and to test the hypothesis that explanation plays a central role in preserving evidentially challenged beliefs. The model provides a good fit to important psychological data and supports the hypothesis that explanations preserve beliefs.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-03 20:42:38

walkable distance for work all of which the average person is capable of walking at a 2.5 mph without any issues. So if you walk just that look at how few jobs there are in that distance and under stand that cities are modelled after that concept which does not work as that is why costs skyrocket.
Googling for response happened to be mostly from forums much like ours.
what's a reasonable distance to walk to work?

living within walking distance of work - good thing or bad thing?

Walking to Work - How Far is too Far?

SpaceNut · 2019-08-03 21:06:39

Iq versus being in poverty, since an IQ can go up and down with stress, starvation or nutrition issues, sleep deprived conditions

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/ma … telligence

authors write: “we examined the cognitive function of farmers over the planting cycle. We found that the same farmer shows diminished cognitive performance before harvest, when poor, as compared with after harvest, when rich.”

“Poor individuals, working through a difficult financial problem,” Walton writes in her study, experience “a cognitive strain that’s equivalent to a 13-point deficit in IQ or a full night’s sleep lost.”

So you could be a genius, lose you job becoming homeless, now you are a disabled mentaly according to this IQ testing and only capable of being in survival mode.

kbd512 · 2019-08-04 00:04:14

SpaceNut,

If someone truly was a genius, then at least in part they'd demonstrate their genius to the rest of the world by maintaining employment that allowed them to eat regular meals and live indoors. If you can solve any math problem except the problem of how to balance your check book, then you still have a major problem. Sometimes you have to recognize when something isn't working as well as you'd hoped it would and try something different.

Did you read that research paper I posted in post #228?

That paper tells you exactly why poverty and other societal problems persist, even in the richest country in the world. If the explanation for the failure is to your liking ("it was someone else's fault", for example) then you'll substitute that explanation for whatever the real explanation was, the problem will persist, and nothing will change as a result.

Terraformer · 2019-08-04 01:34:24

SpaceNut, walkability isn't about having your job within a 800m radius of your house. But you should (if you live in a town) be able to walk to the supermarket, doctors surgery etc, and kids should be able to (safely) walk to primary/elementary school. Ideally, there'd also be an allright bus system to get to the next towns and cities over, but even if you have a car just for commuting to work, you will save a lot of money vs. having to drive everywhere.

tahanson43206 · 2019-08-04 09:57:52

For Terraformer re #232 ...

Thanks for posting the clarification of the meaning of the term "walkability" in the context of community design. I understand the focus on walking to work, which seems to be what SpaceNut is concentrating upon recently, but appreciate your reminder that more that employment is involved.

It is not so long ago that ALL communities were walkable.

However, the reason I decided to post in SpaceNut's Poverty topic this morning is an interview I heard yesterday, with a farmer trying to compete in the current age by growing strawberries. This gent's family has been in the business for some time (perhaps several generations), and part of the interview was devoted to the mind-numbingly tedious but exacting physical labor of picking strawberries.

Following presentation of the challenge of picking strawberries by hand, the interview progressed to the difficulty of finding workers who would (are willing to) do this kind of work on hands and knees in the hot sun, for hours from dawn to dusk, and still make the absolute minimum wage.

SpaceNut... we have talked about the importance of job creators before, and in this case, the economics of strawberry growing are such that as generous as the job creator might be in heart, the job creator cannot pay a worker for full medical benefits, a generous pension, money for college tuition for children, or even enough to live comfortably. From time to time, and frequently in this topic, it seems to me that you express criticism toward job creators for not providing a rich employment opportunity for workers. I would be interested in your advice for this particular job creator.

However, while waiting for your advice, I would like to report what this particular job creator decided to do. He took what funds he had and invested them in a startup which (apparently) has applied a modest flavor of artificial intelligence and sophisticated tactile "hand/finger" robotic appendages along with advanced video sensors and image processing subsystems to gently twist ripe (soft) strawberries from the vine, while leaving unripe ones for the next pass.

What I take away from the interview is that this particular job creator has moved from employing uneducated human beings willing to take even such miserable work, to employing a team of highly paid intelligent and well educated workers who develop, deploy and then maintain robotic systems for strawberry harvesting.

Somewhere recently Terraformer observed that there are always human beings under the 100 median for intelligence, as measured by standardized tests.

My understanding is that as time passes, the level of intelligence of the population is rising, so that the 85 of today may meet or exceed the 100 of a century ago.

The age of robotic systems is close at hand, if not already here. It would seem likely that the median intelligence of humans will rise with the advance of robotics, due to the demands of production systems for intelligent, well educated workers.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-08-04 10:09:06

Psychology a psuedo science non science opinion which does not use fact or creates fact to fore fill theory. AkA same as global warming where facts are twisted to fit concept...the calculus was a nice touch

What IQ, and all of the factors suggest is the brain chemistry and desease of the brain have more to do with its functioning than one might think.
What studies lack are the initial and periodic IQ tracking along with more data to quantify and qualify any validation of what is theorised. It will need twin like data to prove whether like IQ end up the same over a life time knowing what needs to be corelated with other samples of those that are disabled and how they track as well.
Homelessness and proverty are environmental conditions which effect the people and while luck will have it some will not fall into the condition while others from prolonged cause and effect do.

kbd512 · 2019-08-04 15:15:19

SpaceNut,

Whether or not psychology is pseudo-science, according to you, it still does a reasonably good job of explaining why people hold on to beliefs after evidence to the contrary is presented. Simply labeling people who are homeless as "mentally disabled" is a cop out to absolve one's self of any personal responsibility. You're doing exactly what the paper claimed you'd do. You're very much enamored with a particular explanation for our societal problems, even though that explanation has never improved anyone else's lot in life, but you don't think there's any flaws with your explanation. You claim to want to solve these problems, or at least better understand why they're happening, but refuse to accept that there is any element of personal responsibility or consequences from personal choices in the matter.

Please note that I am most definitely NOT in favor of forcing everyone to bear the brunt of their bad decisions, merely because they were bad with money or time management at some point in their life, only pointing out what I see and the potential problems with using non-evidenced-based explanations. I do hope that there are better solutions available, but I don't know what those would be in every possible scenario. If someone can't manage money, then part of the "social welfare safety net" should be teaching people how to manage time and money. That's just recognizing when someone has a life-altering deficiency in a critical aspect of modern life (time and money management). And yes, I would absolutely make sure someone I took off the street had a hot shower, clean clothes, a good meal, and rest before I tried to teach them anything as esoteric as time and money management.

This is exactly like a drunk claiming they don't have a drinking problem. Everyone else can see that the person in question is stumbling around on a routine basis, but the person stumbling around doesn't think that getting drunk every day has any effect on their ability to eat and live indoors. Naturally, the drunk's explanation that there is no problem or that the problem has no consequence to them or others is utter nonsense, but until the drunk truly recognizes that they have a serious personal problem, nothing will ever change.

People who are highly intelligent don't go from the pinnacle of their careers to being homeless. If they do, then they clearly have some type of personal problem which caused that to happen. Depression, for example, is a real problem that routinely has devastating consequences on the lives of those afflicted and the lives of the people around them.

When we first went off on this tangent, I brought up IQ because intelligence was about as strong an indicator of success in life as any other that we know of. Given an IQ significantly below average, it's going to be very difficult to achieve success. That doesn't mean we can't alter that outcome, though. If simply throwing money at the problem would fix it, then all of our problems should've been solved with the amount of money we've thrown at the problem. Politicians won't understand that at all, unless they're doctors, and even then, I wouldn't count on it. It'll take a monumental educational effort, which must be tightly focused on critical life skills rather than trying to turn everyone in the world into a Renaissance Man as the colleges try to do. I would say that the program must focus on fluid intelligence / problem solving after a very narrowly defined crystallized knowledge base of fundamental and critical life skills has been established. I can say with certainty that our current educational system has an extreme over-emphasis on crystallized knowledge, rather than problem solving. I'm sure a lot of what we teach has value in an academic setting, but time and money management are first priorities in every other setting. Anyway, that research was performed by those "pseudo-scientist" psychologists, not just here in America but across the entire world, who wanted to better understand why some people were more successful than others. That particular factor seemed to have as strong or stronger a correlation than any of the other factors that they were able to identify and correlate with outcomes.

I'll provide a personal example. I know lots of programmers who have rote memorization of one or a handful of programming languages, yet they seem to forget about why they're doing something a certain way. I know this particular problem when I see it because I've seen so many examples of poor usage of the "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail and every solution looks like a hammer" variety. After they find something that works at all, they'll continue using it even when there are other options available that work significantly better. I have never once committed any of the language constructs of a particular programming language I use to memory. If I stop using some particular language for about 6 months or so, then I'll forget it and have to relearn it. With experience and exposure, I've become fast enough at relearning or learning a new language that it hasn't been a substantial problem- most languages are substantially similar and many of the same basic constructs are found in every language, even if they look a little different. After you understand how the basic constructs work and what they're applicable to, to memorize a particular language is to memorize useless trivia. The lexicon is always available online, so there's no point to memorizing things you're not actively using. My brain only came with so much RAM and the designers never left any instructions about how to install more . Instead, I have chosen to memorize why it is that I should use some particular class of language construct over another and under what situations that specific construct would work best, and equally important, why not to use something. Maybe this is ROM, or EPROM, since I can update it whenever I need to. I guess some part of that is a lot of reading and understanding of the fundamentals, but it hasn't failed yet and I get presented with plenty of new problems everywhere I go.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-04 15:25:01

Free form community is the new term that corrects for stringent zoning laws of where something can be as its now a hybrid of services, jobs and residential within a specific population density. This something small town communities are dealing with for there busniess districts which are dieing. That is where cities fail in that the density is to high and just gets taller above ground to compensate for it. Which adds to the cost to live there.

If we drive 60mph and limit a vehicle use to 1 hr of time one way that is what we are defining as work and community zone. That said for cities with dense conditions that speed would end up in the 15 - 30 mph for that same distance for the hour all of which is what we want as part of the working areas of community. Of course using a bike or walking decrease that zone...

Now lets look at the rural farming area or spread out life and living style all of which the one country store (aka mini mall) in the area does all of the what we are looking for but its the distance that makes it not so good of a condition for many to live. Size of scale is a difference maker for farming versus small farm to large greenhouse style of making foods available for purchase. The smaller size means higher good prices but they are pick it yourself type of operations. When I was growing up there was a farming wage bracket (resting wage) that while it was low per hour compensated for the person not working out of the course of the day during every hour of the shift.

The Service industry are poor paying but high tech has really left along time ago as it was not staying profitable. We grow strawberries in a fixture hydroponic cups that rise up from the ground. What makes a good farm here is diversity of product grown for the vegitable and fruit stands to sell.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-04 16:24:09

"kbd512 wrote:

Simply labeling people who are homeless as "mentally disabled" is a cop out to absolve one's self of any personal responsibility. You're doing exactly what the paper claimed you'd do.

Actually thats not what I have been seeing as the people are from all walks of life some capable and other not so much but what they all have common is they are falling through the cracks. One only needs to support them via doing as you indicated by solve to what there specific problems and greating a plan to move forward with for the individual but as the drunk will not admit they have a problem its the planner that must give them the answer to that issue.

So what can we do to give shelter and jobs to these people would start by there actual volunteering in the setting or creating that safe haven for shelter and food. That said they are involved in the intake and addressing the needs of the many as they are one of them. Show them how to fish and they will eat, give them a fish and they will starve...Its about giving and creating skills that they may have but did not know how to use them.

Once they people can make it to wanting to work rather than looking for hand outs then shift them to not being a volunteer but a wage earner until the goal of being able to get into low income rental if they are judged to be capable of handling there own funds for the care. If not capable then appoint a guardian payee to provide for there care and look at other sheltering options. Since the effort is to create skills for work that require those skills for these people whom are not working.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-04 18:34:27

One might ask what level of brain diseases will show up in an IQ test...
Alzheimer’s New Blood Test

kbd512 · 2019-08-04 19:34:01

SpaceNut,

Problem solving skills, as it pertains to finances, is not something most people are good at. Even if they understand what they're being taught, they often fail to apply what they've learned. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that. We do need to give people fish to prevent them from starving in the short term, but the immediate #1 priority after feeding them the fish is to start teaching fishing skills. We don't really do that very much, if at all in most cases. The company I work for brings people in to teach you how to go about buying a house, even though they don't have a thing to do with real estate. Same thing with retirement, driving, and a plethora of other everyday life stuff. Why? They want their employees to make good financial decisions that don't cause problems at work.

For example, if someone doesn't know how to manage their money, then we need the absolute best people we can find to immediately start teaching money and time management skills, along with prioritization of resources. If I wanted to solve a money management problem, which I don't claim to be any kind of expert on, then I would round up the best people I knew to teach that to anyone who lost their job / home / whatever. Simply pretending that the pain alone taught them anything is asinine, even if the pain is a major clue that you're doing it wrong.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-05 20:50:43

This ran over the weekend in a state wide paper Job market welcomes more people with disabilities

In Which the business gets supplemental money for the person that must assist them through several programs

5d4630e3d0797.image.jpg?resize=750%2C512

Job shadowing or coworkers where they are a team with the capable person there for the support of the not so capable. This is the same as is done with the special olympics where the partner that plays on the floor or field with the disabled is there to guide them to feel as if they are doing the game....

This is check in the box.....

Homeless are not just on the street in the open or under tarps/ tents they are living in their cars and RV's as well
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 … a-homeless

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 … s-bay-area

3000.jpg?width=1140&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=cf70c21de3cabaf6744e7cb7350411c6

“They don’t consider themselves homeless,”

SpaceNut · 2019-08-05 21:31:10

http://www.ktvu.com/news/ktvu-local-new … v-dwellers

https://parade.com/643064/beckyhughes/w … s-the-u-s/

https://paloaltoonline.com/news/2019/04 … population

https://www.chron.com/news/education/ar … 269696.php

https://www.rt.com/usa/362418-victory-c … ess-fines/

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/loca … 83598.html

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/opinion … 715948001/

When all that can be afforded
https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story … 484929002/

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/s … 96731.html

https://endhomelessness.org/homelessnes … ss-report/

The end of an era when its needed the most
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/l … 770676001/

Johnny Towan, a man who lived in the inn about 10 years ago and currently works across the street from it at a Quality Inn, said that the hotel would often allow locals a roof and a bed during hard times.
"They were good about letting you stay there for a week or two weeks until you were able to get on your feet," he said. "For those who are homeless, they'll hate to see it go away, but some things in life come and some things go."

SpaceNut · 2019-08-10 16:48:27

I just happened upon this article for Amazon Is Selling A Solar-Powered Tiny Home That Basically Builds Itself all remote-controlled.

So do not lose the remote or you will need to buy a replacement...sure not going to be cheap...

This is just what we would want for permanent to temporary shelter and housing depending on the situation.

Some one that has lost every thing for huricane, tornado or flash flood could be looking for Fema to set you up in a mold contamininated trailer would give anything for a starting home that can be expanded on.
Not to meantion its a starter home or shelter for homeless to get set up in for temperorary use to maybe permanent if they want to own it.

These are simular to the conex box that are used by many....

1565369068-41ORl34RknL.jpg?crop=1xw:1.00xh;center,top

expandable prefab tiny home that is solar-powered and requires practically zero hands-on work. It quite literally opens and closes with a click of a button to allow for even more space, while maintaining the ability to run entirely on solar and wind power. For those who aren't gung-ho about going green (IMO, wrong), the mini casa can instead be wired for the typical electrical power.
But those aren't not the only crazy-cool qualities helping this prefab creation stand out amongst small house enthusiasts. It also comes complete with a shower, sink and toilet in its bathroom, an air-conditioning unit, a kitchen, a bedroom, and a designated dining/living area with a fold-out table—all for a jaw-dropping price. For less than $25,000 you can get everything you need for a full-time home or a guest house fit for your backyard

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a2 … est-house/

At a mere 172 square feet, the tiny space is compact enough to actually fit but still has enough room to be useful, whether it's used for storage or for pure fun. In the description, the plans say that this tiny structure can be built in way less than a day—in eight hours, to be exact—when two adults team up for the job.
If you want to add anything extra like HVAC or electricity to this DIY home, you'll need to do that yourself—it doesn't include any of those amenities.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-12 19:02:39

Social Security, is in some pretty big trouble. Despite making benefit payments for eight decades and keeping more than 22 million people out of poverty each month, the program is facing an estimated $13.9 trillion cash shortfall between 2035 and 2093, with 2035 being the year that the program's nearly $2.9 trillion in asset reserves is expected to be completely exhausted.

tahanson43206 · 2019-08-13 07:16:58

For SpaceNut re #243 ...

Here's an idea for you .... it's right up there with "A Chicken in every Pot" ...

Constitutional amendment: An intelligent robot must be in the care of a single human being.

The text of the amendment would contain a number of clarifying clauses, the most important of which is:

No corporation or group can own, possess or control an intelligent robot.

The economic benefit is that the earnings of each robot will flow to the human being who has custody.

Since no such robots exist at present (except in rudimentary form) now is the time to establish a national policy on this subject.

The effect would be that wealth would automatically be distributed to the population, because corporations, governments and other groups would all want to use robots for all sorts of purposes, but they would have to contract for services from the human beings who have custody.

Custody would be awarded at birth.

A related provision would be: No human being can have custody of more than one robot.

Human beings love competition, so there will be jostling to have custody of the most sophisticated robot.

(th)

Terraformer · 2019-08-13 12:30:34

That would limit the number of robots to the population of the country. Which would eliminate the big advantage of robots...

tahanson43206 · 2019-08-13 13:40:35

For Terraformer re #245 ...

That would limit "Intelligent" robots to the population. Unintelligent robots are unimpeded by the proposal.

You want MORE intelligent robots than the population? That would mean 7 billion at this point, if the concept is extended world wide.

The idea is to spread "property" out so that every citizen gets a piece, before it is accumulated by a few individuals, which is the situation we have now.

Most people on Earth right now will NEVER own land. There isn't enough to go around.

(th)

Terraformer · 2019-08-13 14:30:22

Our current population density (land only) is only 50 people per km^2. Enough for everyone to have two hectares, though a lot of people will be stuck with Antarctic or Saharan land.

But there's definitely enough land for everyone to own a little bit. Certainly enough for a decent garden.

tahanson43206 · 2019-08-13 15:25:49

For Terraformer re #247

Thank you for giving this idea a bit of a run. Land is a fixed asset. My recollection from history is that in some cultures, the land was divided among the offspring of a family which owned land, until the results became ridiculous.

I've proposed a situation in which a productive resource (intelligent robot) is assigned to each citizen, without regard to race, color, religion or a thousand other means of exclusion practiced through the centuries. This assignment can happen through majority vote of the population, most of whom are NOT powerful or wealthy or socially advantaged.

The resource being assigned is unlimited in its potential productivity, since each resource can be fitted with more and more powerful hardware, and more and more capable software. What is MORE ... unlike a human being, one of these resources can be reprogrammed for a new task with a software upgrade in a short amount of time.

In such an economy, competition would exist between humans who control these resources, to see who can present to meet a current need most quickly, and at what rent.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-08-13 17:36:00

The future IA of terminator...not really looking for that out come as they deemed man to be inferior....

tahanson43206 · 2019-08-14 07:13:33

For SpaceNut re #249 ...

Thanks for the reminder of the need to build ethics into intelligent machines. Isaac Asimov wrote the Three Laws of Robotics decades ago, and (I would imagine) a significant percentage of the population of the English speaking world is aware of them. However, with each passing year, new members of the population come along WITHOUT exposure to those ideas, and they are the ones who will be designing the hardware and software for these machines beyond the present state of the art.

The Constitution of the United States might be the right place to set in place expectations for how these machines should be developed and employed.

It seems likely to me that intelligence greater than that of human beings of 2019 is likely. For one thing, human beings are gradually becoming more intelligent, so what we (of 2019) can hope for is that with greater intelligence might come greater levels of kindness and generosity toward lesser creature.

We humans have a mixed record when it comes to our treatment of less intelligent creatures.

(th)

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#226 2019-08-03 04:44:34

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#227 2019-08-03 19:18:17

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#228 2019-08-03 20:18:22

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#229 2019-08-03 20:42:38

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#230 2019-08-03 21:06:39

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#231 2019-08-04 00:04:14

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#232 2019-08-04 01:34:24

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#233 2019-08-04 09:57:52

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#234 2019-08-04 10:09:06

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#235 2019-08-04 15:15:19

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#236 2019-08-04 15:25:01

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#237 2019-08-04 16:24:09

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#238 2019-08-04 18:34:27

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#239 2019-08-04 19:34:01

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#240 2019-08-05 20:50:43

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#241 2019-08-05 21:31:10

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#242 2019-08-10 16:48:27

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#243 2019-08-12 19:02:39

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#244 2019-08-13 07:16:58

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#245 2019-08-13 12:30:34

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#246 2019-08-13 13:40:35

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#247 2019-08-13 14:30:22

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#248 2019-08-13 15:25:49

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#249 2019-08-13 17:36:00

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#250 2019-08-14 07:13:33

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

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