Hydrocarbons on Mars?

Phobos · 2002-08-07 20:18:47

I remember a month or so ago someone posted how propane would be produced as a side effect in the Sabatier reactor. I came upon an article about methods for turning CO2 and methane into hydrocarbons that could then be fed back into the fuel system of a vehicle. The ability to create such chemicals out of the Martian atmosphere might be good for creating materials like plastic.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-25 17:11:10

sure got buried

6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01b8d0d724a2970c-550wi

knightdepaix · 2019-05-11 21:51:33

It is good to be allowed to communicate with others who have such talents. I am not incapable of learning, but only likely to be able to analyze and promote useful modifications in part, and very often not to a fine quality.

Synthesis of Acetic Acid via Carboxylation of Methane. Carbon dioxide is available in the atmosphere and methane from underground.The molecular formula of acetic acid is C2H4O2, three of which become C6H12O6 and thus the molecular formula of glucose. Can then acetic acid be converted into glucose?

louis · 2019-05-12 05:23:27

The amount of methane estimated is very small as I recall. I think you would have to extract from the atmosphere.

knightdepaix wrote:

It is good to be allowed to communicate with others who have such talents. I am not incapable of learning, but only likely to be able to analyze and promote useful modifications in part, and very often not to a fine quality.
Synthesis of Acetic Acid via Carboxylation of Methane. Carbon dioxide is available in the atmosphere and methane from underground.The molecular formula of acetic acid is C2H4O2, three of which become C6H12O6 and thus the molecular formula of glucose. Can then acetic acid be converted into glucose?

SpaceNut · 2019-05-12 07:58:12

If mars did follow the same path as earth one would once we dig see reserse simular to those on earth of water, oil, methane, propane, and other such gasses. Since they started from the same disk of dust, have had a molten core, volcano's oceans and such.
We have seen the effects of water long past so until we get something more capable to mars to dig and bore we will only be able to speculate.

kbd512 · 2019-05-12 21:11:29

Mars has earthquakes, too, apparently. That means geological processes are still at work and should also be producing very similar types of materials. For all we know, there might be coal on Mars.

knightdepaix · 2019-05-13 10:26:14

kbd512 wrote:

For all we know, there might be coal on Mars.

If there were coal on Mars, hydrocarbons can be mass produced with coal and water. Then can human just burn Martian coal in Martian carbon dioxide inhaust in an internal combustion engine? Carbon monoxide will be the exhaust. Or the coal can be made into liquid oxocarbon, fullerenes, fullerene oxides under Martian temperature and pressure and those chemical compounds are supplied as fuel, just like at a gas station on Earth.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-05-13 10:32:40)

JoshNH4H · 2019-05-13 12:06:54

Perhaps I am wrong about this but my understanding was that coal is a fossil fuel created by geological alteration of buried plant remains. While we cannot completely eliminate the possibility that there is or was life on Mars based on available evidence, we can say with high confidence that the lush biomes that would produce substantial coal deposits do not (and with nearly as high confidence, did not) exist on Mars. It would be a further surprise to find hydrocarbon fossil fuels on Mars (Coal by the way usually is a mix of hydrocarbons, though much heavier on carbon than natural gas) because the ground is otherwise so strongly oxidized.

As far as using ground coal to combust with atmospheric CO2 to produce CO, this is unfortunately impossible to use as a fuel because it absorbs energy. The reaction is called the Boudouard Reaction, and Wikipedia notes that the reverse reaction (2 CO -> CO2 + C) is exothermic at all temperatures.

kbd512 · 2019-05-13 19:04:29

Josh,

I try not to count chickens before they've hatched. We've been surprised by a lot of things we've found on Mars. We've only recently done slightly more than scratching the surface of a few rocks, never mind digging hundreds or even thousands of feet down to see what we find. I guess we'll just have to send people to Mars to find out.

JoshNH4H · 2019-05-14 09:23:05

You'll find no argument with me about going there to have a look around.

Having said that, this isn't a matter of counting your chickens before they hatch so much as it is saying that you've got no eggs and shouldn't expect any chickens. I don't claim certainty. What I do claim is that even if we couldn't see fossil fuel deposits directly, the environment that could create them would leave behind certain telltale signs which we probably would have seen by now if they were there, as they'd be fairly ubiquitous. Your post had three sentences:

1. Mars has earthquakes, too, apparently.
2. That means geological processes are still at work and should also be producing very similar types of materials.
3. For all we know, there might be coal on Mars.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first two of the three, while the last one seems unsupported by evidence.

Terraformer · 2019-05-14 14:30:24

For what it's worth, we *have* seen methane leaks.

I think we need to send a mirror and spectrometer to Mars to check things out. Heat up the regolith and see what outgasses. Try it with different parts of Mars and see what comes up. It shouldn't be expensive as missions go, though demonstrating the ability to build a sun gun might make other countries nervous. For this reason it should be built by the UK Space Agency, to show that we can burn our enemies to ashes if they try anything funny.

JoshNH4H · 2019-05-14 15:57:05

Sounds like you're describing a version of the Chandrayaan-1 probe, admittedly with the ability to investigate more than one site. A fleet of impactors plus a surveying satellite (or even 3-6 surveying satellites for total global coverage) seems cheaper/easier to build than a sun gun.

Of course, when it comes to developing cool-sounding weapons to make other countries nervous clearly the good ol' USA will get there first.

The amounts of methane are extremely small (10 parts per billion of a very thin atmosphere, right?) and if I recall are thought to be of geological origin. Indeed, the extremely low atmospheric concentrations are themselves suggestive of a lack of hydrocarbon deposits under the surface.

Is it *possible* that there are hydrocarbon deposits on Mars? Yes. Is it at all likely? No.

SpaceNut · 2019-05-14 17:36:48

The ChemCam instrument for NASA's Mars Science Laboratory mission uses a pulsed laser beam to vaporize a pinhead-size target, producing a flash of light from the ionized material -- plasma -- that can be analyzed to identify chemical make up.

Maven is also on orbit along with the ESA satelite are doing the gas analysis as they orbit.

So not looking to do an impactor unless its gets science as well from the Insight siezmic sensor that will enefit mans understanding of the planets core and not just the volitiles which the crust might have in one location of interest. I would look to do such an impactor close enough so as to allow a rover to go and investigate close up.

JoshNH4H · 2019-05-14 17:59:51

I don't think any impactor we could feasibly send to Mars with current launch technology would be able to generate the kind of seismic wave that would provide information about the core. Might be interesting to aim for somewhere near Insight so you could see how the local material behaves though. It'd be an interesting complement to spectrographic observations of the dust plume. Having said that there's reasons not to, too, including the mission timeline (will Insight still be operational? If not, you might choose a site based on areological interest rather than proximity to Insight), risk to Insight (if you're looking to punch through the atmosphere your accuracy should actually be quite good if you incorporate a few stabilizing jets, but I mean still).

As far as whether you'd need a dedicated observation satellite I really am not sure. You will certainly get better data if you have them, though.

SpaceNut · 2019-05-14 18:58:10

I would think that due to the panels on insight being trackable or capable of aligning towards the south even in winter that unless we get a total block out of solar that it will survive for decades.

I would think that this calculator would also work for Mars
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/tools/lunarcratercalc/

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/view … t=smallsat

JoshNH4H · 2019-05-15 16:51:54

Again, I don't know how long Insight will last but decades is probably an overly optimistic estimate

SpaceNut · 2019-05-15 17:20:25

Well Opportunity did exceed its operating plan by 14 years while roving all around until the total block out of the sun as it did not prepare for it in getting a full charge on its batteries before it hit before going into a sleep mode. Spirit died due to not being able to move anymore and lasted 6 years of life on mars.
The insight is a stationary unit with a greater ability to face the panels for higher solar energy collection.

SpaceNut · 2019-06-16 15:39:13

What some are into Researchers take two steps toward green fuel as single sugar components produced, called monosaccharides, can be fermented into bioethanol or biobutanol, alcohols that can be used as fuel.

SpaceNut · 2020-12-11 18:45:46

While we seem to be able to make plenty of fuel types for use in any form of internal combustion engine we seem to have only the issue of how much energy we are willing to throw at the problem of getting oxygen to make the engine run.....

knightdepaix · 2020-12-15 21:23:51

I may have an simple question here. How much carbon dioxide can Martian atmosphere or the planet hold when the climate remains as is? Usually, the idea of a newbie reader is import carbon dioxide from Venus to Mars. Even then, how much shall be delivered...

SpaceNut · 2020-12-15 22:13:14

What I understand about mars cold is that during the night and all the time except in summer the co2 falls out of the sky as snow or becomes frost on the soil surface. So until the air pressure climbs along with the temperature to keep it from freezing out of the air its going to stay doing this....

So I guess we are after those magic numbers as to what will it take to change mars even if its only enough to stop it from freezing out of the air?

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-16 09:37:54

For knightdepaix and SpaceNut ....

The idea of knightdepaix to import gases from Venus to Mars (or perhaps from other locations in the Solar System) intrigues me, but I find that I am not in possession of the facts I need to answer this question:

Is the gravity of Mars sufficient to hold additional gas?

I am wondering if the amount of gas we (humans) observe at Mars is the absolute maximum that the gravity of the planet can (or will) support?

Nature has had billions of years to create the scenario we can see and measure.

It seems to me (without having the facts at hand to work with) that if Mars could hold more atmosphere it would be doing so.

Thus, pending correction by someone in the forum who can add substance to my speculation, I think that any gas added to Mars will immediately boil off in the Solar wind.

In rereading Post #20, I realize I am asking the same question posed by knightdepaix, but extending the range to ** any ** gas, and not just CO2

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-12-16 09:48:10

The Teraforming of mars indicates that a large amount of gases released into mars atmosphere would thicken up the atmosphere and while it would lose it over time that it would last thousand of years at current escape rates cause by the lack of any radiation belts to slow the winds from the sun from stripping it away. This is also related to the remaining magneto sphere that is not as strong as it needs to be.
That said a production plant is needed just to replenish the loss rates....

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-16 10:24:58

For SpaceNut re #23

While I admire your tackling this question, I am hoping you can find some physics to back up your prediction.

It seems to me that any gas added to the atmosphere of Mars will be lost, for the simple reason that the gravity there is able to hold onto ONLY the amount of gas that is already there. If the planet could hold more gas, it would be observed to do so.

Your prediction is that gas added to Mars today will hang around for thousands of years.

You might be right. From my perspective, if you are right, it would be a lucky guess.

It seems to me that a person with a PhD in Physics, and access to a computer with the appropriate software might be able to write a model of the atmosphere of Mars that could show the results if a ton of CO2 (as just one example) is added to the atmosphere.

I am confident that the ton will dissipate out into the Solar System, over some period of time.

What I'm not clear on is how long it would take.

Your guess of "thousands of years" is a starting point.

The reality is likely to be less than that, but without a computer model (or perhaps an exercise of calculus) we have no way of knowing.

My working hypothesis is that the amount of gas a body (planet or other) can retain is a function of it's gravity.

Edit#1: Another factor that contributes to the stability of an atmosphere is external radiation impinging upon it.

A successful model of the atmosphere of Mars would include those two functions at a minimum.

The nature of the gas mixture may be a factor as well. I would expect low mass molecules to find their way to the top of the atmosphere, where incident radiation would whisk them away.

By extension ... your prediction of thousands of years might be correct for heavier molecules.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-12-16 11:27:07

here is the frequently ask question topic in the terraforming folder.

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#1 2002-08-07 20:18:47

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#2 2018-11-25 17:11:10

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#3 2019-05-11 21:51:33

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#4 2019-05-12 05:23:27

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#5 2019-05-12 07:58:12

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#6 2019-05-12 21:11:29

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#7 2019-05-13 10:26:14

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#8 2019-05-13 12:06:54

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#9 2019-05-13 19:04:29

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#10 2019-05-14 09:23:05

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#11 2019-05-14 14:30:24

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#12 2019-05-14 15:57:05

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#13 2019-05-14 17:36:48

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#14 2019-05-14 17:59:51

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#15 2019-05-14 18:58:10

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#16 2019-05-15 16:51:54

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#17 2019-05-15 17:20:25

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#18 2019-06-16 15:39:13

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#19 2020-12-11 18:45:46

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#20 2020-12-15 21:23:51

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#21 2020-12-15 22:13:14

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#22 2020-12-16 09:37:54

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#23 2020-12-16 09:48:10

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#24 2020-12-16 10:24:58

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

#25 2020-12-16 11:27:07

Re: Hydrocarbons on Mars?

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