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#26 2019-06-08 08:59:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,113

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

For Terraformer #25 ... Thanks for taking a look at the article.  Your comparison of the risks of humanity colonizing the galaxy, and of the globe, struck me as quite interesting.  Your closing line seems overly optimistic, for a person who uses the Mark Watney quote as a signature << grin >>

We have managed to achieve the collective capability to wipe the Earth clean.   The author of the article simply extends that capability to everyone who builds up a community far from Earth. 

***
This morning the same news feed offered a link to an article first published in Popular Science in 2018.  It reports on research which appears to indicate that persons who hold strong views on (BOTH) the right and left of the ideological spectrum have a trait in common.  To summarize, such persons are unable to adjust after they have made a decision, even if the decision is shown to be wrong.

This is a fascinating concept, and it appears (to my eye) to have played out on this forum, and on many others.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/peop … ket-newtab

The practical application of this research, if it is developed further, would be to help in crew selection so as to avoid admitting persons who suffer from this trait.

***
I would like to add that before posting this reply, I went back and read a number of the messages from the top of this topic.  JoshNH4H and Louis were present in the first set of 25 messages, along with SpaceNut.

The discussion was (largely) about the effect that "having a frontier" has on a culture.  JoshNH4H observed that the Internet serves as a frontier in much the same way as a physical frontier.  I think that idea holds up well, seven years later.

The Internet is under pressure these days, as noted in this forum and elsewhere.  The efforts of Elon Musk and now Jeff Bezos (I understand) to create constellations of Internet servers in orbit may have the useful effect of bypassing the controls established in several nations on the wired Internet.

I note that the person who started the topic,   John Creighton, last posted in 2012.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-06-08 09:05:44)

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#27 2019-06-09 02:35:45

Terraformer
Member
From: The Fortunate Isles
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,855
Website

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

To add to my reply, I don't see how it could lead to the end of humanity, short of developing a weapon capable of destroying the universe (which is a separate but related argument for retarding technological progress). *Someone* will always survive... and that will probably be far more people than the Earth could support on its own. It won't just be stars we colonise.


Use what is abundant and build to last

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#28 2019-06-09 08:38:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,304

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

Survival seems to be size related with earth and the history is written which proves that intensity of event is another of the factors for why we are still with life at all on earth. Lifes ability to adapt in part is another reason for why we still are here as well.

We are also on a new course where we the perpitrator of global warming will need to adapt of face the same extinction which we are causing for some life forms while it would also seem that new life is also still evolving as a result.

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#29 2020-10-13 13:21:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,113

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

This topic seems like a reasonably good fit for an article about the history of metal smelting ...

The article at the link below reports on research that puts an active copper smelting operation in about 6,500 BC.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/finance … 00470.html

I hope the residents of Mars don't have to repeat this phase of human history.  On the other hand, knowledge of this period would seem worth having.

(th)

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#30 2021-09-12 08:49:25

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

The Final Frontera
https://www.texasobserver.org/the-final-frontera/

'Mars Missions Can Only Last 4 Years Due to Radiation'
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/326 … -radiation

new study from UCLA could put a damper on such plans. According to the latest data, humans could only safely spend four years on Mars before receiving an unsafe dose of radiation

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-07 06:08:30)

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#31 2022-05-25 15:36:18

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

Will an independent Mars have protectionism?

The End of universal Globalization?

Emily Carver: Davos deserves to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions
https://www.conservativehome.com/thecol … tions.html

Davos Forum is back after 2 yrs, but with less billionaire starpower and no snow
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne … 33312.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-05-25 15:36:44)

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#32 2022-06-07 06:07:23

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

Powercuts, Quakes

Famine, War and Plague?

Blinken says there are 'credible reports' Russia is stealing Ukraine's grain and selling it, accusing Moscow of trying to 'blackmail' the world with a food crisis
https://www.businessinsider.com/blinken … ain-2022-6

previous threads


A Constitution of Mars; Scientocracy
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7620
Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7509
Most Important Animal to Mars - What animal will be most useful?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=241
Feeding everyone - ...future of other worlds (and this one)
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3069

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#33 2022-08-27 08:22:20

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

Exploration Is Fundamental to Human Success

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … n-success/

Fighting faction that fight forever? Russia, USA, Rome, Persia

Persia killed Roman and yet Rome kills Persian and Persian killed Rome and Roman kills Perisan ..endless cycles from different perspectives?

What Really Happened to Valerian? Was the Roman Emperor Humiliated and Skinned at the Hands of the Enemy?
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history … emy-008598

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-27 08:48:34)

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#34 2023-08-25 09:46:53

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

Mads Mikkelsen Plays Danish Explorer in Trailer for Historical Epic Drama
https://geektyrant.com/news/mads-mikkel … mised-land

Australia set for weakest growth since WWII over next 40 years
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/au … 821-p5dy8p

USA Russian frontiers

About this Collection
https://www.loc.gov/collections/meeting … ollection/
Meeting of Frontiers is a project, originally funded by the United States Congress, devoted to the theme of the exploration and settlement of the American West, the parallel exploration and settlement of Siberia and the Russian Far East, and the meeting of the Russian-American frontier in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest.

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#35 2023-10-16 07:25:56

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,113

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

In Fall of 2023 on Earth, the Middle East is once again the focus of global attention. 

A few members of the forum have found themselves caught up in the emotions generated by recent events.

I asked Bing if there are any maps that show the changes on Earth in the Middle East over time, and Bing found a number of sites.

This one seems particularly well done, and it seems to be free of emotional contamination.

I liked the animated map of the history of the Ottoman Empire, which lasted longer than the Roman Empire, at 500 years.

https://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east

What I did ** not ** find (so far) is a map showing the land that the Romans considered "Israel" ... they may not have had a concept of Israel as land back then, but instead identified the land as Palestine.  If another member is able to find a map showing the borders of land that the Romans considered to be where the Israelites lived, I'd appreciate your adding a link in this topic.

Update!
Void has provided insight that there are disputes among historians about how long various civilizations lasted.  I reported that the web site at the link above offers the comparison of the 500 year Ottoman empire to the Roman empire.  It appears that a remnant of the Roman Empire persisted for many years under another name.

It seems to me unlikely there is a definitive answer on this point. It seems sufficient to say that all these empires lasted for a considerable period of time.

Update: Here is the text with which Void found fault:

The six-century rise and fall of the Ottoman Empire
The Ottoman Empire is named for Osman, its first ruler, who in the early 1300s expanded it from a tiny part of northwest Turkey to a slightly less tiny part. It continued expanding for about 500 years — longer than the entire history of the Roman Empire — ruling over most of the Middle East, North Africa, and southeastern Europe for centuries. The empire, officially an Islamic state, spread the religion in southeast Europe but was generally tolerant of other religious groups. It was probably the last great non-European empire until it began declining in the mid-1800s, collapsed after World War I, and had its former territory in the Middle East divided up by Western Europe.

This topic is a good place for history students to post clarifications.  Void has shown a reference that considers the Roman Empire to have started about 800 BC, and lasted for about 1000 years.  I think it questionable at best to consider the Empire to have started that early, but it's been a long time since I looked at the history. Now is as good a time as any for a refresher course.

(th)

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#36 2023-10-16 07:49:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

According to what I have read, the 10 tribes were dispersed, and may or may not exist somewhere in disguise.

Juda and the remnant of Benjamin, may have continued or resumed existence in some part of the area.  So, then the name Jew.

And then we get to the confusion of who are these people who are labeled Jews?  I consider it not to be my concern, as much as I can possibly keep it so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah  What empires called it I do not know at this point.  Image Quote: 375px-Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg.png

I have a rather religious associate (Christain by proclamation), who has told me that it is not polite for a Jew to bring up the ethnic origins of another Jew.  Maybe that is true.

Ethnically there may be at least two branches of them.  One stayed among the Arabs, more or less, Sephardic, and the other existed between Christain Europe and the Muslims of Eurasia, more to the North.  I am having trouble recalling the name of that country/entity. A country up there wanted to decide which religion to adopt, so they investigated Christian, Jewish, and Muslim.  They picked Jewish.  It is very quite possible that they absorbed some descendants from Juda and Benjamin.  But lots of them were Red heads, so not what some portrayals depict.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ … c-Jews.htm

The Ashkenazi were very useful in keeping the Muslims and Christians separated in the North, I believe.  But when the Mongols slaughtered them a remnant of survivors moved into parts of Northen Europe.

That is about as much as I think I know, and I choose not to provide any judgement about it and will not participate in any such thing.

By the way I am not Jewish, to my knowledge, but did go to a Synagogue one time, and had a very interesting if not bizarre experience there.  It was a confirmation group from a Christian group.  The priest was very friendly by the way.  He said something very interesting about me by the way.  I know that Jews can be ferocious, as they were reported to be some of the best soldiers, that the Romans had.

I will not rise to any baiting of any sort.

Done

Maybe you can find what you want in here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbe … -of-judea/

Done..

Last edited by Void (2023-10-16 08:11:11)


Done.

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#37 2023-10-16 10:06:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

(th), to my knowledge, this is not true:

I liked the animated map of the history of the Ottoman Empire, which lasted longer than the Roman Empire, at 500 years.

There is this: https://time.com/6101964/fabricated-fal … s-history/

The Roman Empire lasted about 1000 years and the Eastern Roman Empire lasted another 500 years more or less.

Curiously the Muslims in the world seem to have referred to the Ottoman lands as "The Romans".

As a matter of practicality, not all the descendants of the Eastern Roman Empire converted to Islam, so In a sense the Eastern Roman Empire still exists in some fragmented form to a bit of an extent in the Balkans.

The Rivalry between Rome and the Eastern Roman Empire was in part to some extent how the Ottomans managed to finish the Eastern Roman Empire off.

There is always the question of who is your enemy if you see your neighbors as Heretics?  Christians sometimes fought with the invader Muslim cultures and the Eastern Roman Empire also sometimes had Muslim Allies, I think.

The Russians have at times considered themselves to be another addition of the Roman Empire.

And then there was the "Holy Roman Empire".  Some have said that the USA is the Holy Roman Empire.

Some other places in the world work that way as well.

While the Muslim world was magnificent for a time, while they still had educated slaves and converts, I have read that they lost the branch of their religion that was rational and scientific, about the 17th Century, I believe.

And author I have read who may be a bit biased, David P. Goldman, wrote a book,

https://www.amazon.com/How-Civilization … 159698273X

Where those cultures were holding captive other civilizations, they did give communication between those captives.  Which in itself is an achievement.  But the Arabs themselves were chargers of rents more or less.  And sometimes even maybe Plagiarizers.  (As many cultures tend to do).

Last edited by Void (2023-10-16 10:21:50)


Done.

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#38 2023-10-16 10:16:49

NewMarsMember
Member
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 1,317

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

For Void re #37.... I reported the claim in the history web site.  You are welcome to visit the site, and see what you think might be correct.

In addition, this is a history topic, so accuracy is appropriate.  If you can find a resource that offers a different figure for the longevity of the Ottoman Empire, please add it to the topic!

If you find that I quoted the site incorrectly, I will be happy to correct the original post.

If you find that the site itself is in error, we can approach the web site to ask them to make such corrections as you consider appropriate.

I am guessing you did not visit the web site, because it shows the growth and decline of the Ottoman Empire.

(th)


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#39 2023-10-16 10:23:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

https://www.thecoldwire.com/how-long-di … pire-last/
Quote:

You are here: Home / The Cold Spotlight / How Long Did The Roman Empire Last? (Explained)
How Long Did The Roman Empire Last? (Explained)
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July 31, 2021
By Janet Jacobs
@janetjacobs1919
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Follow $1%s on Google News
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Roman Forum in Rome

The Roman Empire was one of the most influential civilizations in human history.

During the Roman Empire’s reign, humanity pressed forward towards new ideas that people still study and master to this day.


Without the Roman Empire, we might not have as much interest in subjects such as math, science, sports, politics, military tactics, and even creative and performing arts.

This long-reigning empire made the most out of its existence and blossomed into a more civilized society.

How Long Did The Roman Empire Last?
Rome Colosseum Close Up View in Rome , Italy




The Roman Empire lasted more than 1,000 years, beginning around the eighth century BC.

The bulk of the Empire, the western part, fell in the fifth century AD, while the Eastern part continued for the next 1,000 years as the Byzantine Empire, which surrounded the city of Constantinople, now known as Istanbul in modern-day Turkey.

But Potatoe, Potato, I don't care that much, except falsifiers may be setting up for an eventual revision of history.

I believe that attempts are being made to muddy the waters about Moon landing.  After they conquer us then they will write the new history.

So, it may be good to groom such things.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-16 10:25:20)


Done.

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#40 2023-10-16 10:35:47

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,113

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

For Void re #39

It is good to have the clarification you provided in this post!

I am willing to alter the wording of the original post.  It seems likely the web site where the Ottoman Empire was reported as lasting longer than the Roman Empire was considering only the part of that empire that did not continue on.

Where we seem to be in need of further clarification is: Would it be correct to consider the Byzantine Empire to be separate and distinct from the Roman Empire?

In any case, I'll go back to the original post to point out the distinction.

(th)

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#41 2023-10-16 12:56:32

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,113

Re: History, The Frontier and its Consequences

For Void re history of Roman Empire vs Ottoman Empire ...

I decided to ask ChatGPT(4) and learned that the estimate of the duration of the Roman Empire (Western) is NOT 1000 years.  It appears that some scholars may be confusing the Republic with the Empire.

User
tahanson43206
GPT-4

User
Hello Again! it is Monday 2023/10/16 at 14:46 local time. You wouldn't know about it, because your training data ended in January of 2022, but the Middle East is in turmoil again. This worrisome situation inspires folks to wonder about the history of the region, and it goes back a long way.  One of us found a web site that was set up to discuss the history of the Ottoman empire, and whoever wrote the text seems to have thought that the Roman Empire lasted less than the 500 years with which Ottoman is credited.
ChatGPT
Hello! I'm glad to assist with historical questions.

It seems there might be a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of facts on that website regarding the duration of the Roman Empire. Here's a brief breakdown:

The Roman Republic: Before the empire, Rome was a republic that lasted from around 509 BC to 27 BC.

The Roman Empire:

Western Roman Empire: This started from 27 BC (when Augustus became the first emperor) and lasted until AD 476 when it fell to Germanic invaders. So, that's approximately 500 years.
Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire): The eastern half, with its capital in Constantinople, survived the fall of the Western Roman Empire and continued to thrive. It lasted from the division of the empire in 285 AD up to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. That's over 1,000 years.
The Ottoman Empire: After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Byzantine Empire was succeeded by the Ottoman Empire, which lasted until 1922. This is about 469 years.

So, if we consider the entire duration of the Roman Empire (both Western and Eastern halves), it lasted over 1,500 years, which is significantly longer than the duration of the Ottoman Empire.

It's essential to approach historical content on the web critically and cross-check information from multiple reputable sources to get an accurate understanding.

User

Thank you for your helpful summary of the history.  it appears that the Ottoman historical site was in error about the Roman empire on several counts. I have an opportunity to thank our member who spotted the error! Best wishes to you as you assist your thousands of other fans.
ChatGPT
Thank you for your kind words! I'm glad I could assist. It's always great to approach historical information with a critical mind and seek clarification when needed. Best wishes to you and your endeavors as well. If you have any more questions in the future, don't hesitate to reach out. Stay curious!


ChatGPT may produce inaccurate information about people, places, or facts. ChatGPT September 25 Version

?
ChatGPT

(th)

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