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#1 2006-06-22 01:34:54

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

A brief article together with a fantastic zoomable image describes Holden crater, a potential site for the MSL rover to explore.

Planning for MSL, some scientists are studying a site where Uzboi broke through the crater's rim and left layered deposits that have partly eroded. The scientists hope to land MSL close by, on the smooth, low-gradient slope (an alluvial fan, in geo-jargon) that lies just northwest of the layered sediments. After setting down, MSL would drive over to the layered deposits and explore them


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#2 2008-01-30 07:40:30

Ron Carlson
Member
From: Near JSC
Registered: 2007-12-08
Posts: 39

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

http://themis.asu.edu/features/holdencrater

Running on electricity from a powerful nuclear-isotope generator (and not dust-vulnerable solar panels), MSL will have a minimum driving range of 20 km (12 miles) and likely can travel much farther. For comparison, Opportunity and Spirit have so far driven about 8 km (5 mi) each, but were designed to cover just 600 meters (2,000 feet).

The engineers at JPL in Pasadena, California, who design Mars Rovers need to get out of their tiny distance mindset and start designing the Rovers to run in the tens of thousands of miles, each, minimum, thus greatly increasing cost effectiveness of exploration as not as many Earth to Mars rockets would have to be launched to cover high mileage exploration of the Martian surface.

A basic mechanical design of the Rover platforms is accomplished and what essentially remains is a study of materials science and engineering to maximize vehicle longevity.

Scientists and engineers must work together to design future test instrument packages, which need to be much larger than currently proposed.

Ron Carlson

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#3 2008-01-31 03:36:55

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

The engineers at JPL in Pasadena, California, who design Mars Rovers need to get out of their tiny distance mindset and start designing the Rovers to run in the tens of thousands of miles, each, minimum, thus greatly increasing cost effectiveness of exploration as not as many Earth to Mars rockets would have to be launched to cover high mileage exploration of the Martian surface.

A basic mechanical design of the Rover platforms is accomplished and what essentially remains is a study of materials science and engineering to maximize vehicle longevity.

Scientists and engineers must work together to design future test instrument packages, which need to be much larger than currently proposed.

JPL engineers are the most accomplished and successful Mars rover designers in the world. And their designs work! They put the first rover on Mars and exceeded its amazing success by incredible margins with the second generation rover, MER. A factor of 16 in rover mass (170 v 10.5 kg); a factor of 17 in operating time (1449 v 83 sols) and a factor of 115 in distance (11500 v 100 m). Both MERs are still working, so those numbers will only get better.

MSL, a new 3rd generation rover is being tested right now. It is 4 times heavier than the MER, its mass is limited only by the launcher and the new landing system (the airbag system was maxed out). JPL scientists and engineers are an incredible team, they are pushing the limits of the possible and succeeding.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#4 2008-01-31 20:19:17

Ron Carlson
Member
From: Near JSC
Registered: 2007-12-08
Posts: 39

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the scientists and engineers at JPL are among the most gifted and talented on Planet Earth.

The Mars Rovers are amazing machines that will only get better as new teams and generations of scientists and engineers advance the designs for exploring Mars and doing science in orbit around Mars and on the Martian surface.

Americans should be very proud at what the people at JPL have accomplished.

Ron Carlson

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#5 2008-02-01 08:05:21

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

Ron Carlson, the whole 12 miles thing for MSL is really just saying "if it goes 12 miles then it met its mission objectives." I have no doubt in my mind if we can get it there and get it landed in one piece that it will go 10 if not 100 times that in its lifetime. 100 times might sound like an exaggeration, but because it'll be nuclear powered it could concievably still be running a decade out (the Vikings were both nuclear powered and lasted 7 some odd years).

Just sayin'. These mission objective limits thingies are just there to give one another a pat on the back and prove their engineering skills are far beyond ones expectations.

Kinda like that Star Trek quote:

Kirk, "How long to re-fit?"
Scotty, "Eight weeks. But you don't have eight weeks, so I'll do it for you in two."
Kirk, "Do you always multiply your repair estimates by a factor of four?"
Scotty, "How else to maintain my reputation as a miracle worker?"
Kirk, "Your reputation is safe with me."


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#6 2008-02-01 10:35:46

Ron Carlson
Member
From: Near JSC
Registered: 2007-12-08
Posts: 39

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

Ron Carlson, the whole 12 miles thing for MSL is really just saying "if it goes 12 miles then it met its mission objectives." I have no doubt in my mind if we can get it there and get it landed in one piece that it will go 10 if not 100 times that in its lifetime. 100 times might sound like an exaggeration, but because it'll be nuclear powered it could concievably still be running a decade out (the Vikings were both nuclear powered and lasted 7 some odd years).

Just sayin'. These mission objective limits thingies are just there to give one another a pat on the back and prove their engineering skills are far beyond ones expectations.

Josh,

I think it would be at least somewhat easier to raise money for Mars Rovers if the NASA and JPL managers were able to tell our Congressmen and Congresswomen at budget time that these JPL rovers have a designed range of 10,000+ miles for scientific exploration with a designed life expectancy of 10 years or more.

It would be necessary to power the long range rovers with radio isotope power supplies as solar panels would not be effective more than a few years at best due to dust problems.

It would be prudent to launch two rover combinations per "Earth to Mars window" so if one rover is lost en route, the mission can go on with the remaining rover.

Money would need to be appropiated for operations programs for 10 years or more, if they do indeed last that long, employing scientists, engineers, technicians and other personnel for a good many years (thus giving them a chance to buy a decent house or whatever).

Long duration and long distance Mars Rovers would provide the opportunity for pursuing programs of scientific exploration that could provide the peoples of Planet Earth with a vast treasure of scientific information on the topology, geology, hydrology, minerology, geophysics, and climatology of Mars and it's potential economic resources.

Of course, if any scientifically solid evidence of past or current Martian life is ever found, it could conceivably become much easier to raise money from Congress for future Mars exploration programs.

Ron

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#7 2008-02-01 11:50:53

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

I think it would be at least somewhat easier to raise money for Mars Rovers if the NASA and JPL managers were able to tell our Congressmen and Congresswomen at budget time that these JPL rovers have a designed range of 10,000+ miles for scientific exploration with a designed life expectancy of 10 years or more.

Even JPL engineers can't guarantee 10,000 miles or even 100 miles with current technology. Neither can they offer 10 years of life. MSL may exceed  10 years and 100 miles but risk analysis says otherwise. They would not only be wrong to make such claims but misleading. Congress would not be amused.

Does any off road vehicle manufacture offer a 10 year and 10,000 mile guarantee with no servicing?

BTW MSL's specification is for 6 kms and two years (compare with MER 600m and 90 days)


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#8 2008-02-01 22:13:40

Ron Carlson
Member
From: Near JSC
Registered: 2007-12-08
Posts: 39

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

I think it would be at least somewhat easier to raise money for Mars Rovers if the NASA and JPL managers were able to tell our Congressmen and Congresswomen at budget time that these JPL rovers have a designed range of 10,000+ miles for scientific exploration with a designed life expectancy of 10 years or more.

Even JPL engineers can't guarantee 10,000 miles or even 100 miles with current technology. Neither can they offer 10 years of life. MSL may exceed  10 years and 100 miles but risk analysis says otherwise. They would not only be wrong to make such claims but misleading. Congress would not be amused.

Does any off road vehicle manufacture offer a 10 year and 10,000 mile guarantee with no servicing?

BTW MSL's specification is for 6 kms and two years (compare with MER 600m and 90 days)

To misrepresent a Mars exploration vehicle's capabilities to Congress would be a kiss of death.

While JPL and NASA managers certainly can not guarantee Congress a rover vehicle lifetime of 10,000 miles and/or 10 years longevity with present technology, such a goal is a worthy one for the future. It may take several decades to be able to design and produce such machines but it most likely can be done.

After all, some of Planet Earth's brightest and most creative people are working for JPL and NASA designing our Mars exploration vehicles. They are NOT guys working at the local used car lot.

Items that need work are ultra-sealed wheel bearings, low wear axles, ultra-longlived low temperature lubricants, unpuncturable and/or unbreakable wheels, incorrodible and flameproof wire insulation, uncrackable wire conductors, radiation proof electronic components and integrated circuits, ultra-durable high conductivity solder joints, unbreakable chassis frames and components, incorrodible items such as wire looms, nuts, bolts, washers, etc, all capable of functioning properly in the extreme temperatures and environment that Mars presents to Planet Earth's explorers, scientists and engineers. Much work will be needed in the areas of materials engineering and metallurgy.

While designing Mars exploration vehicles to what may seem to some to be unattainable standards, successful development of such long lived materials would produce many wonderful technological spinoffs to industry here on Planet Earth, dramatically increasing operational longevity and economic life times of our terrestial machines. smile

Ron Carlson

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#9 2008-02-03 03:11:30

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

It may take several decades to be able to design and produce such machines but it most likely can be done.

Ron, within several decades people will be on Mars. Then rover life will be ten years and ten thousands miles.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#10 2019-06-04 03:33:36

smairakh
Member
Registered: 2019-06-04
Posts: 1

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

JPL architects are the most cultivated and fruitful Mars meanderer originators on the planet. Furthermore, their structures work! They put the main meanderer on Mars and surpassed its stunning accomplishment by mind-blowing edges with the second era wanderer, MER. A factor of 16 in wanderer mass (170 v 10.5 kg); a factor of 17 in working time (1449 v 83 sols) and a factor of 115 in separation (11500 v 100 m). Both MERs are as yet working, so those numbers will just show signs of improvement.

IT Training Institute

Last edited by smairakh (2019-06-05 02:20:21)

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#11 2019-06-04 17:30:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,619

Re: Holden Crater: Where Waters Ran

Welcome to NewMars smairakh... yes the rovers did last quite a long time. One can only hope that the current working will out perform them.

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