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#101 2019-05-31 17:45:17

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

But you can get your TV over the internet these days! smile My daughter was complaining about the regrowth in tree cover affecting her TV reception but she can still get just about everything she watches over the internet and onto her TV screen.

GW Johnson wrote:

Dunno about BBC America,  Louis.  That's a cable TV-only channel. 

I live on a farm in rural Texas.  I get my TV as broadcast over an old-time antenna (something the satellite and cable guys do not want people to know still works,  but it does ***).  Just about all the channels that antenna of mine picks up are HDTV,  but I don't get the cable stuff. 

I get a far different mix,  including a lot of stuff cable (and satellite) doesn't carry.  Most stations broadcast 2 to 4 channels with different content.  BBC America just ain't one of those. 

GW

*** digital TV changed the coding superposed upon the unchanged FM carrier waves,  same as from the late 1940's.  Antennas do not care about the coding,  only the FM carrier wave.  Your TV cares about the coding,  not the antenna. 

There's people marketing "free TV antennas" these days,  but they are not as good as the old-time rooftop antenna whose design I have been using for 32 years now out here on this farm.  I've replaced units from weather and aging damage,  but all pick up broadcast TV,  period.  Digital,  analog,  no difference.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#102 2019-05-31 18:22:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

The tv signal change over did reduce the number of channels that one could get as the distance to tower was reduced to the frequency being digital as it acts more like the old UHF with narrow band transmission which does not follow the land scape and is more line of sight even with a tower being able to have more than one multiplexed signal for one to recieve. They also want to do the same thing for radio which wouild further reduce communications to the people of real information and not fake news.

The cable internet is expensive and so is the cable tv that it can provide.

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#103 2019-05-31 20:43:38

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,724

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

BBC has a TV station here in America?  Why?  Does anyone actually watch it?

What does cable TV versus antenna TV have to do with preventing your children from contracting crippling diseases when proven safe and effective vaccines are readily available for a few dollars or completely free if you're poor?

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#104 2019-06-01 05:46:29

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Its biggest audience was Dr Who - 2.2 million.  I'm guessing it's normally around the 100,000-200,000 mark.

It's rabidly anti-Trump, just like our BBC.

GW referenced research on the influence of Russian backed media re vaccination.

The BBC is fully signed up to not mentioning negative aspects of vaccination. I expect BBC America is as well.

kbd512 wrote:

BBC has a TV station here in America?  Why?  Does anyone actually watch it?

What does cable TV versus antenna TV have to do with preventing your children from contracting crippling diseases when proven safe and effective vaccines are readily available for a few dollars or completely free if you're poor?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#105 2019-06-01 09:06:16

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,492
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

I have internet out here in rural Texas via cell phone tower.  It's barely good enough to stream TV,  but most rural places do not have such.  That is nothing at like what you get in the cities.  Even cell phones barely work out here.

I got the story off CBS news's website.  I didn't see this story on their TV broadcast.  It "confirms" by overlapping,  with some things documented in Mueller's report.  The Russian trolls are still active trying to weaken the US by dividing its people.  What they did in 2016 has not gone away,  it has expanded. 

That includes fanning the anti-vacciners with fake news and plants on social media.  Which is the connection to this thread.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#106 2019-06-01 16:45:33

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,724

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

GW,

What does the Mueller Report have to do with vaccinating your child?

Can we lay off politics long enough to make coherent and focused arguments about why not dying or being crippled by diseases, which we have long had vaccinations against, is a good thing?

No disease on this planet gives a damn about anyone's politics.

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#107 2019-06-01 18:52:33

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

So presumably Starlink will serve people in your communities?

Of course the Russians are trying to weaken the USA b y creating divisions - and seeking the impeachment of a President for a great big fat nothing burger is doing their work. But please remember the Saudis and China were rooting for Hillary.  Hillary's closest advisor - Huma Abedin - is of Saudi background and her parents ran a pro-Sharia magazine which she helped produce!  No worries there then?

GW Johnson wrote:

I have internet out here in rural Texas via cell phone tower.  It's barely good enough to stream TV,  but most rural places do not have such.  That is nothing at like what you get in the cities.  Even cell phones barely work out here.

I got the story off CBS news's website.  I didn't see this story on their TV broadcast.  It "confirms" by overlapping,  with some things documented in Mueller's report.  The Russian trolls are still active trying to weaken the US by dividing its people.  What they did in 2016 has not gone away,  it has expanded. 

That includes fanning the anti-vacciners with fake news and plants on social media.  Which is the connection to this thread.

GW


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#108 2019-06-01 20:09:58

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,724

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Ah, jeez.  Seriously?  Are we really that stuck on politics here?

We did have an interesting back-and-forth on the merits of stopping lethal diseases in their tracks.

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#109 2019-06-01 21:23:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Let see if we can get back on track...

https://www.webmd.com/children/news/201 … hould-know

https://www.obgproject.com/2019/05/01/t … -advisory/

704 cases since the first of the year through the month of april...

https://www.newsweek.com/measles-cases- … dc-1441163

The CDC’s website says children between 12 and 15 months of age should have one dose of the MMR vaccine. A second dose should be administered between four and six years of age. The vaccine is only licensed for children aged 12 months to 12 years, so teens and adults should be up to date on MMR vaccinations.
Two doses of the MMR vaccine are reportedly 97 percent effective, while one dose is reportedly 93 percent effective at preventing measles.

We are already above 971 cases confirmed in 2019 so far, according to the CDC reported in 26 states.

Russian trolls fueled anti-vaccination debate in U.S. by spreading misinformation on Twitter. This year's outbreak coincided with the spread of misinformation about the safety of vaccines, with conspiracy theories falsely linking them to diseases such as autism. A new study by George Washington University found that Russian Twitter trolls fed into the misinformation, with bots stoking both sides to cause confusion. Facebook, YouTube and Pinterest announced steps this year to crack down on anti-vax misinformation.

Before the measles vaccine, an estimated 3 to 4 million people in the U.S. contracted the disease every year, resulting in 400 to 500 deaths and 48,000 hospitalizations, according to CDC data.

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#110 2019-06-02 12:19:58

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,492
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

I think there's plenty of evidence out there to justify eliminating the exceptions to mandatory vaccination,  excepting only doctor-ordered medical exemptions.  Public health is simply more important than those political,  religious,  or personal-philosophy objections.  It's pretty much the same principle as limiting the free speech of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

The latest Scientific American magazine has an article pointing out that live virus vaccines seem to have a protective influence beyond the specific diseases that they were developed to prevent.  Non-live virus vaccines do not seem to have this effect. 

It's controversial in that some claim this benefit,  others doubt it is real at all.  The whole thing begs a rigorous determination.  If it pans out,  that's just another good reason to mandate vaccination,  and to increase the portion of live-virus vaccines when you do.

The effect is larger in 3rd-world countries without adequate health care.  This needs confirmation,  but the hypotheses about it seem logical.  This,  too,  needs more study.  But,  apparently,  there's just a lot more disease exposure in these places.   

The same article says the data available so far in these poor countries indicates a death rate from measles at about 13% of those infected,  far higher than we see in the US and Europe.  We see lower rates because we have the health care and the vaccinations.  Those 3rd world places have neither. 

Point is,  vaccinations,  among other things,  make a real beneficial difference.  But only if herd immunity is achieved:  that's usually well over about 95% of individuals vaccinated.  Unless you achieve that,  the disease comes roaring back,  just as we are currently seeing.

And THAT says you allow no exceptions except those tiny few that are truly medically required. 

Sorry,  Louis,  but them's the facts on the ground.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#111 2019-06-02 14:55:16

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,724

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Gw,

There is indeed a "fire" in our crowded movie theater, and that would be in the form of diseases that are spreading like wildfire amongst an increasingly unvaccinated populace.  Sadly, personal belief systems offer no protection whatsoever from communicable diseases.  Unfortunately, our anti-vaxxers are ignoring the smoke (increasing numbers of infections) and flames (increasing numbers of deaths) because they're fixated on the movie (their own belief system), while the slow-motion train wreck continues playing out all around them in real time.

Unless people collectively pull their heads out of their non-evidence-based belief systems, we're all in deep trouble.

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#112 2019-06-02 17:52:20

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,492
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

True enough!

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#113 2019-06-02 18:50:32

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

I really think you don't get it GW. I am arguing for a rational calculus. I am not arguing "against" vaccination.  What might be "good" in Africa on balance might be "bad" in Europe. These are things to be argued about. They are certainly not things to be given over to pharmaceutical companies and Governmental health ministeries.

But even if I were arguing "against" vaccination, I should be free to do so.

Why don't you read some Ibsen? "An Enemy of the People" - Jaws was based on that. The argument from the community was "you can't say that" - it will create havoc, disaster. That is precisely your argument: censorship is justified by fear of catastrophe.

Who is going to decide what is "scientifically proven" and what is not?  Is that how Galileo started out? Arguing we need an official body to determine what is scientifically true and what isn't? I don't think so.

Name me one significant scientific discovery that wasn't opposed by the scientific consensus of the time!  Vaccination? Atomic theory?  Relativity? Tectonic plates? Germ theory? Heavier than air flight? African origin of hominids?  The list is endless.

Your approach I think is pathetic and will return us to the Dark Ages. You are just letting lobbies and lunatics get control of the public square. And you don't even engage with the arguments - you don't even give a mea culpa for not being aware aluminium is used as an adjuvant in nearly all vaccines.


GW Johnson wrote:

I think there's plenty of evidence out there to justify eliminating the exceptions to mandatory vaccination,  excepting only doctor-ordered medical exemptions.  Public health is simply more important than those political,  religious,  or personal-philosophy objections.  It's pretty much the same principle as limiting the free speech of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

The latest Scientific American magazine has an article pointing out that live virus vaccines seem to have a protective influence beyond the specific diseases that they were developed to prevent.  Non-live virus vaccines do not seem to have this effect. 

It's controversial in that some claim this benefit,  others doubt it is real at all.  The whole thing begs a rigorous determination.  If it pans out,  that's just another good reason to mandate vaccination,  and to increase the portion of live-virus vaccines when you do.

The effect is larger in 3rd-world countries without adequate health care.  This needs confirmation,  but the hypotheses about it seem logical.  This,  too,  needs more study.  But,  apparently,  there's just a lot more disease exposure in these places.   

The same article says the data available so far in these poor countries indicates a death rate from measles at about 13% of those infected,  far higher than we see in the US and Europe.  We see lower rates because we have the health care and the vaccinations.  Those 3rd world places have neither. 

Point is,  vaccinations,  among other things,  make a real beneficial difference.  But only if herd immunity is achieved:  that's usually well over about 95% of individuals vaccinated.  Unless you achieve that,  the disease comes roaring back,  just as we are currently seeing.

And THAT says you allow no exceptions except those tiny few that are truly medically required. 

Sorry,  Louis,  but them's the facts on the ground.

GW


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#114 2019-06-02 19:08:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

I hear cars kill but yet we tell everyone to buckle up for life.

The argue for whats good for one place versus not good for another is based on what racism?
So a virus or a Bacterium knows what color our genetic make is?
Are you saying that a race has natural immunity to disease?
So which race for what disease will it be?

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#115 2019-06-02 19:45:57

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

I hear cars kill but we haven't yet banned cars, just like we haven't (yet) banned the immune system (thankfully).

I can't believe your ignorance about Africa. Children growing up in most of Africa are subjected to far more serious threats to health than children growing up in Europe. Or are you going to try and claim children in Europe are drinking contaminated water, suffering from serious malnutrition, taking in enormous amounts of toxins from unregulated waste disposal, or experiencing malaria and a huge number of other life-threatening tropical diseases? 

And, yes, people of Black African racial heritage do have better immune defences against various diseases such as malaria! Sounds like you have never read up on this subject.

Many diseases and instances of disease resistance are "race"*-specific. Why on Earth wouldn't you think that was the case?

Do you know anything about genetics and disease?

* I am putting race in quotation marks because I don't really believe in the concept of "race". I've never seen a satisfactory definition of it. Darwin believed in sub-species of homo sapien but I doubt that anyone could ever properly define them.


SpaceNut wrote:

I hear cars kill but yet we tell everyone to buckle up for life.

The argue for whats good for one place versus not good for another is based on what racism?
So a virus or a Bacterium knows what color our genetic make is?
Are you saying that a race has natural immunity to disease?
So which race for what disease will it be?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#116 2019-06-02 20:24:28

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,492
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Louis,  I never said one word about stifling debate.  Data never justify that.  What I said was that all the exemptions to mandatory vaccination need to end,  save only those deemed medically necessary by a real doctor.  The available data very definitely justify that. 

The exemptions as they are today are too numerous.  Because of too many exemptions,  we have lost herd immunity in some regions,  and the disease is showing massive outbreaks in those same regions. Surprise,  surprise!

As for who decides,  that would be the properly-qualified doctors and medical/biological research scientists.  Not lawyers,  not politicians,  not pundits,  not reporters,  and not members of the public.  None of those are qualified.

And that would include me:  I am an engineer,  not a doctor or a medical/biological researcher.  I am trained in logical thought,  but I do not have the medical/biological background and experience to be qualified.

And,  unless you are a medical doctor or a medical/biological research scientist,  you aren't qualified to decide either.  So leave it to the experts.  Ask questions,  question conclusions,  debate,  etc.  But leave it to them.  They understand what's real,  and how to balance any risks vs achieving herd immunity.

While these vaccines might have traces of aluminum in them,  the total dose of that aluminum is quite small.  From what I read,  it is far smaller than what you get from cooking high or low pH foods in an aluminum pan,  even allowing for the different route into the body.  There is a demonstrated,  but low,  risk of aluminum brain damage from using aluminum cooking pans.  There is simply no credible risk from vaccines,  since the dose is orders and orders of magnitude smaller. 

You'd be more credible to worry about the mercury in the thimerosal preservative used in many prepared vaccines.  Except that it is orders and orders of magnitude lower dosage than what you are exposed to from amalgam-type tooth fillings.  We have over 500 years' experience with amalgam fillings.  There simply is no credible risk from them.  And the mercury dose from vaccines is far smaller still,  so small that different exposure route is immaterial.

Radiation exposure is a bigger risk than any of this vaccine crap.  I don't see you worrying about that.  Excepting a Chernobyl-type nuclear disaster,  your two biggest components of that exposure are natural background,  and medical imaging,  which can approach the natural background for the more extreme cases.  Worldwide,  that is about 300 milli-REM (0.3 REM) in a year,  every year.  Just to "calibrate" that figure,  30-50 REM accumulated in a short time (hours to days) is lethal to 50% so exposed.  Something close to 100 REM in a short time is lethal to 100% so exposed.  So we're really talking about the low-exposure risks here,  even at 3 REM in a year.

You probably don't know this,  but about 1/3 of that "natural" background is spewed from coal-fired power plants.  As it turns out,  coal has small amounts of radioactive elements in it,  along with the heavy metals,  and the sulfur that makes acid rain.  It has built up after 3 centuries of humans burning large amounts of coal. Surprise,  surprise!

In high-elevation places near igneous rock formations (like Denver,  Colorado),  the natural background is far higher than world average.  Yet cancer rates there are no higher than elsewhere.  Thus,  radiation levels from 0.3 to maybe 3 REM,  are pretty much indistinguishable in terms of human health.  So that's a weak risk.  As weak as that risk is,  it is far higher than ANYTHING to do with vaccines!

Use your logic,  man! We can debate vaccine safety all you want.  You (and all the rest of us) are quite free to do so.  That is actually the best way to root out the bad actors who otherwise might produce low-quality or dangerous products (a far bigger risk than a properly tested quality product).  We need that sort of policing,  no doubt about that. 

If you want to worry about vaccines,  there's your real issue:  bad actors selling bad stuff for profit.

But there's no point blowing perceived dangers out of proportion just because something dangerous in high quantity is there in trace amounts.  The numerical data just do not support that!  There's a huge difference between what might conceivably happen,  and what real data say is actually likely. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-06-02 21:15:14)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#117 2019-06-02 21:08:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Louis we have many nations where the oppressed people are dieing from disease such as the speratic Ebola out breaks in many parts of Africa, of which I think that a vacine is being created but it will attack all regardless of race. Afria is isolated by areas that make it so that it can not pass to other parts of the world. I guess if we do have a vacine for Ebola then why are we not wanting to get them to all as we do a simple Measels vacine? I am sure in time one will be required for this very deadly disease.
Many of the poor nations also have bad water as well of which they do die from as well.

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#118 2019-06-02 21:19:26

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,492
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

The journals say they are working on some Ebola vaccines,  but none are yet ready,  even experimentally (which often proves dangerous,  as all the safety testing has not been done).  This is the sort of effort seriously damaged by budget cuts at NIH and similar agencies.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#119 2019-06-03 18:52:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

There are many bad diseases that man could create and deliver vacines for but its the almighty dollar does interfer with many while others must get through all of the safety testing.
Lyme is one that is debilitating if gone untreated, while there are many more tick borne carried that will do more to kill you....
The list is long and the progress is slow by those that could do better...

We have had issues with GMO foods but what about Scientists edit chicken genes to make them resistant to bird flu

I think that we have had some luck with reversal of HIV but Resistance mutations - HIV & AIDS Information

Of course disease gotten in Hospitols are not all that rare any more as Hospital reports patient death amid Legionnaires' outbreak

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#120 2019-06-04 16:42:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Anti-vaxxers are only part of the measles problem

“Our world is increasingly interconnected,” problem for us when we do not vacinate.

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