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#101 2019-04-19 18:53:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,690

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

I would make use of the same satelites which we will need for radio relays and for planet wide GPS to form the back bone of a field generator.
Beaming microwave energy between them and setting up a plasma field setting by leaking argon or neon or other elements that we can control in this field to create a shield.

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#102 2019-04-22 17:26:52

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

May I be explained why plasma in the Martian atmosphere must be needed for magnetosphere? I would assume that magnetic field can be a resultant of a force by photons and electric field. So an artificial magnetic field by incoming electromagnetic radiation -- ultraviolet from teh sun, gamma rays from outer space -- and artificial electric field can complementary the weakness of magnetic field on Mars?

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#103 2019-04-22 19:27:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

http://www.plasmas.org/basics.htm

E-4thstate.jpg

Plasmas are conductive assemblies of charged particles, neutrals and fields that exhibit collective effects. Further, plasmas carry electrical currents and generate magnetic fields.

This is what I think we can construct for mars.
Boeing Has Patented a Plasma ‘Force Field’ to Protect Against Shock Waves

slack-imgs_1024.jpg

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#104 2019-05-10 10:21:19

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,528

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

I have decided to take a run at this, because, I think more definition of the processes of Mars and Venus have appeared.

I like this article, but to a degree differ with the author on loss of water, ammonia, and other things for a Mars where a artificial magnetic field has been imposed to protect the planet from atmospheric losses.  But it is an interesting article.  I agree that even with a magnetic field Mars will tend to loose Oxygen, water and other gasses, but I think that in the case where an Ozone layer is created (We might hope), and the planet is not heated too much, the Ozone and thermal conditions (Not too warm), will reduce the losses to the degree that the planet can be useful for a very long time.  In the very distant future, it will likely be possible to make up for losses by bringing new materials to the planet as well.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ar … &FORM=VIRE

This though is the trigger which induced me to post:
https://phys.org/news/2019-05-mars.html
Quote:

New water cycle on Mars discovered

So, what they seem to me to say, is that there are circumstances where water vapor is injected into the upper atmosphere of Mars, in addition to how global dust storms also do the same.  The U.V. then shreds the water vapor into Hydrogen and Oxygen.  The Hydrogen is expected to escape easily.  The Oxygen must escape with more difficulty, but apparently it does escape, the evidence is that Mars has only a little Oxygen in it's atmosphere, where if it could retain the Oxygen, the Oxygen would have built up in the atmosphere to a much higher level than what it is.

I will bring Venus into this as well, because there are some similarities.  Venus looses Oxygen due to an electric field that levitates it up above the inducted magnetic field of Venus, and so the solar wind can sweep the Oxygen away into a comet like tail.  It has never been stated that Mars does this as well, but I would not be at all surprised if it does.  In the case of Venus the electric field responsible is apparently related to the extreme dryness of the planet.  (In spite of the clouds).

While I did not previously think that a artificial magnetic field was necessary, I think that after all it is needed for both planets in hopes of retaining Oxygen created by U.V.

It may even make it possible to eventually make the atmospheres of each planet wetter, so that the electrical field diminishes.  Can't guarantee that though.  More likely for Mars to achieve that.

And of course the big hope for both planets if you could retain more Oxygen, is the buildup of atmospheric pressure and the development of a Ozone layer.  A Ozone layer would for Mars, presumably make the surface habitable for very hardy high Artic and Antarctic non-animal life.

I am running out of time so I will come back later.  What I have in mind is a modification of the field in L1, to use a more multi-component method, such as I believe that SpaceNut has suggested.

I also want to incorporate Phobos and Demos into it as "Flywheels", for the Mars method.

I even hope that those two will be able to push and pull on Mars with magnetism.

I have notions of incorporating O'Neill cylinders, and Stanford Torus devices in the orbit of Mars, and perhaps Venus as well, each of these being components of the overall magnetic field(s), with the ability to interact with each other magnetically, to maintain orbits where they are desired.  The L1 component could also be a major part of the process.

Of course this then could bind the Mother Earthers, the O'Neill's, and the Marsies in a common cause.  The Marsies get their Mars with High arctic biome, and also aquatic biomes, the O'Neill's, and for the Mother Earthers, taking pressure off of the ecosystem of Earth should please them.  In addition such a solar community should be able to mitigate asteroid threats to inhabited planets, including Earth.

Everybody can win.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-10 10:41:56)


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#105 2019-05-10 18:53:46

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,528

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

So, continuing in the line of my just previous post.

As I see it there are 3 proposed large scale synthetic gravity devices.

O'Neill cylinders which have gyroscopic progression problems that have to be handled.  The solution by the O'Neill people was to link two opposite direction spinning cylinders, so that they would cancel each other out per gyroscopic progression problems.

Then there is the Stanford Torus, which O'Neill also contributed to.  It apparently does not have a gyroscopic progression problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus

Then there is the Gateway Spaceport, which I guess resembles the Stanford Torus, so I presume that it does not have gyroscopic progression problems.
https://gatewayspaceport.com/
The above is not to be confused with the Lunar Gateway which most members and Dr. Zubrin very much dislike.

Very good chances that I am a feather weight mind, with much to learn, and little time to learn it in.  Still I will offer my current notions.

I will first offer a bit of mercy on the idea of the Lunar Gateway.  Technologically, it may be a plan that pleases only some.  But politically it is very likely to be the way to go.  We do deal with politics, that is reality.  My understanding is that you can divide humans into for types.  Of course some humans have overlap.  Some may even be equally composed of components of all 4 types.  By the way this is thinking I absorbed from a book from a guy from India.  Not necessarily western in concept.  Not necessarily wrong either.

I have added my own interpretation to it.  At the base are warlords and Priests.  If you like in a primitive society, this would be the leader of warriors, and the conveyors of stories and magic.  Not to be held in contempt.  Deity in primitive societies was female.  Not Male.  Story telling was teaching, to program the individuals of the tribal collective.  Magic and medicine I suppose was a method to offset and then augment the necessary brutality of the warriors.  The warriors of course were absolutely also required.

It happened again.  Oh well then revisions.

The four groups are Warlord, Priest, Intellectual, Aquisitioner.  I believe that the intellectual to a greater extent arises from the body of warlords.  I believe that the Aquisitioner, to a greater extent arises from the body of Priests.

I am really on it tonight.  Let me say before I get attacked by primitives, that there is a distinction between (Feminine & Masculine) and (Male & Female).  Lets be clear Male and Female each have some aspect of Feminine and Masculine in differing proportions, and indeed there are some individuals which are hard to define by there body structures.

And while I am carping I must tell you of one of my pet peeves.  The use of the word sex to describe gender.  It is a nasty trick that our news community and the politically correct use in order to try to seize unearned powers.  But OK.  Go ahead and describe gender as sex, and procreation as sex, and contactuality as sex.  Lets just be completely stupid and trip over our shoe laces forever.

But then back to the idea of the Lunar Gateway.

My understanding is that the reason ULA exists is that the Military (Warlords>Intellectuals) wanted to be sure that they could get their necessary payloads to orbit.  Cost being a lesser consideration.  So that means that they have to feed that entity and entities like is enough "Pork" if you like to make sure that that need is assured.  I don't blame them.  There job is to make sure the lions do not eat us.

But we do now have other contractors that are fed on a more lean diet of such favors, and they are also encouraged to forage for themselves as well.  That could include SpaceX and Blue Origins and others.

Then there is the usefulness of critical mass.  For instance I think Canada recently signed up for an extensive period with the Lunar Gateway.  We want the to continue there specialty and want the favor of having it available to us.  Similarly we want other such alliances with other social entities.  This helps validate our process as not being against the benefit of the human race.  It also reduces the burden that so called Americans must bear.  They who participate will also expect a return on their investment.

So then we have the "Mother Earthers", "O'Neills", and "Marsies".  We want to get them all on board as much as can be possible.  Just picking one objective that 2 out of 3 are not very interested in is going to produce political infighting.  We would rather have possibility not impediments to space objectives.  Any space program is better than no space program at all.

It is pretty obvious that SpaceX is the current champion of many "Marsies".  That will do for now.

The "Mother Earthers" can be coddled by suggesting that we will study Earth from space.  Protect it from asteroids.  Eventually move the industrial burden and population burden off Earth to some large degree.  That is part of Jeff Bezos game.  Not stupid at all.

And so the "O'Neill's" and artificial magnetic terraforming of planets.  Mars and Venus for now I presume.

I am hoping to think that we can roll several proposals into methods for that.  That is create synthetic gravity machines which can also help to generate protective magnetic fields for planets.  The purpose to benefit the Earth by offloading population and resource use, and to give happy circumstances for the people offloaded, and then, we hope to help terraform some worlds.

I am not sure I have it yet, but am working on it.

I think that a O'Neill Cylinder with two Stanford Torus devices coupled together might do.  And surrounding them a shell.

This is a bit like the structure of a cell.  A cell membrane, encompassing interior cellular machinery.

The Stanford Torus devices of a lesser mass in total relative to the O'Neill  cylinder, but spinning opposite of the O'Neil cylinder.  The gravity of the Stanford Torus's being similar to Earth to the degree needed for human health, but perhaps that of Venus for instance.  Perhaps one Earth, one Venus.  The O'Neill cylinder having synthetic gravity of ~.38 g (Mars similar).

The cellular wall, or rather the envelope surrounding this then not spinning much at all.  And possibly being able to point certain parts to the sun for solar cells and even windows for whatever purpose.  There can be variations of many kinds.

A person can select pressurization for the outer envelope, I prefer a very attenuated atmosphere in it.  Rather that is a spill catcher.  Gasses spilled from the habitats spilled into this low pressure envelope.  Then if you like "Bilge Pumps" to recover most of it before it leaks to the void smile of space.

So, for the synthetic gravity devices within. Gardens under artificial lights.  However, it will still be possible to have zero g gardens in pressurized sections which would also be inside of the outer envelope.  These then may use sunlight through windows.  And if these leak, then their leaked gasses will also be to a large measure recovered by the same method for the synthetic gravity machines.

There is one problem though.  With spinning machines, a centrifugal explosion might cascade into a large scale destruction event.  This will need consideration to prevent, or reduce the possibility of.

And then radiation is an issue.  I do intend that these machines would be working in concert with others to generate a artificial magnetosphere for Mars, and Venus.  So, they may also shield themselves from some types of radiations.  But then where to put blocking mass to deal with the other types of radiation?  Well, that requires some thinking.


I hope I at least entertained someone more than myself tonight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-10 20:00:23)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#106 2019-05-11 01:58:52

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

I don't think we should be relying on one layer of habitat to provide radiation protection, pressure, breathable atmosphere, *and* gravity. There's no reason to spin the radiation shield.

If we had a shell, composed of 5m+ thick of asteroid dust (in a steel container of some kind? Or maybe we could sinter it together to make some form of concrete...), we could mount centrifuges inside it without having to worry about radiation shielding. The shell would be very simple, so we should be able to make quite large shells. Enough to have multiple centrifuges inside. Light collectors outside to direct light into it, or maybe even fusion reactors in the centre (artificial suns) when we get to that point. It could even have a breathable atmosphere - think Karl Schroeders 'Virga'.

We could even go the Hollow World route, and have a very low gravity ecosystem on the exterior wrapped in a bubble and relying on sunlight, with humans living inside the planetoid and using centrifuge towns.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#107 2019-05-11 08:58:54

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,528

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Thanks Terraformer.

I cannot be assured that I know how things should be.  It is an open subject.

The things we do want to plan for are failures in an established system, and how to minimize any cascade failures.

Concerns are if one rotating habitat/device may begin to shed materials, will it take down the others, with projectile objects.  We also want ot guard against a cascade effect promoting a Kessler syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

In that scenario, we have to also anticipate that excessively "Alpha" individuals may see advantage to their line in doing terroristic behaviors.

So, all of that has to be factored in.  We don't want to create a situation where post human types, predatory types that feed on other humans are not facilitated to become the dominant human form.

The colonial era occurred because of the existence of a vacuum.  It had that justification, but then went too far.  I believe we are now in a post-post colonial era.  We are learning what the threats are from these story tellers.  They have existed previously and we can anticipate that new versions of their types will emerge.  Story telling that gives them special justification to feed off of other peoples.  In this case the excessively verbal skilled peoples seeking to get a free lunch off of technological peoples.

We can think that we will deal with "Man against Man", and "Man against nature".  Those very words are now loaded, as the cultural drift generated by the "Divide and conquer" people has suggested that this does not include women.  Also the "Man against nature" would suggest that we are assaulting an innocent being.  So, those are some of the dirty tricks I will expect from the excessively verbal.

The thing we most need to avoid is the breeding of a race of excessively verbal story tellers, which while lacking technological innovation, can still as is available adopt our weapons, and use them to promote their genome.  This will lead to an idiot verbal race of humans as the dominant type.  It would lead to dark ages for the whole human race.

So, we take care to not pave the road to hell.

So then along the lines of what you have suggested, I think that an assembly of spinning devices can be considered where they all have the same axis of spin.  This will potentially reduce the probability of a cascade centrifugal disintegration of the string of habitats.

And then there can be considered how envelopes of materials not spinning can avoid both cascade damage to the whole assembly of spinning devices, and the also try to avoid a cascade Kessler Syndrome.

The outermost shell I have suggested, would be a shield against orbital objects.  Most likely effective against smaller ones.  It also is intended to catch gas spills from the habitats.  That utility being to reduce the rate of loss of volatile materials.  A "Green" objective I think.
It also affords the possibility to have a moderated space environment inside.  You could control the interior lighting to a degree, and the thermal variations.  It is possible that you could have double doors to allow a spacecraft to enter to be serviced in a less hostile environment.  Probably a good idea to defuse such spacecraft as potential bombs, by purging the propellant tanks prior to entry.

As an example if a heat shield needed to be mended, you would have persons on tethered life support in space suits able to work on the problem in a buffered space environment.

As for radiation shielding.  Magnetics may help.  However as you have suggested, mass radiation blocking envelopes.  For that case, I suggest a non-rotating individual shell for each spinning device.  In addition to blocking out certain types of radiation, then we could hope to contain a centrifugal explosion.  If this could be achieved, then although one spinning habitat might disintegrate, the others would perhaps not be involved in a cascade event.

So we might have chances of containing the behaviors of verbal idiots, and also murphy's law.

So then how to use these things to make a magnetic shield for Mars and Venus.

Just as a trial balloon for Mars, maybe the one in L1, and also six others in orbit of Mars.

This seems like a good starting point:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/05/r … drive.html

So, I think that the idea is to have a superconductive loop, thermally sheltered by aerogel.  Then to be able to generate very powerful magnetic fields.

The fields to interact with the solar wind, the ionosphere of Mars, with the magnetic susceptible portions of the Martian crust, and with each other.

If these devices were lower than Martian synchronous orbit, then their magnetic field could interact with the Martian crust and ionosphere, to give them lift.  This would in a very small way slow down the rotation of Mars.

If we put them above Martian synchronous orbit, then if they were pushed by the solar wind in an appropriate fashion they could lock onto the Martian crust and ionosphere, and perhaps speed up the rotation of Mars, in a very small fashion.

If there was on in the L1 position, and it could hold it's position more or less, then it could be throttled to the degree that it let just enough solar wind through to allow the six orbiters to experience the degree of solar wind we would want.  So, the six orbiters would work like the paddle wheel of a steamboat, except rather than propelling the solar wind they would be propelled by the solar wind.

So, L1 would buffer the solar wind as desired, but the six orbiters could complete the shielding of the Martian atmosphere, and perhaps even adjust the spin of Mars over a very, very long period of time.

A similar intention for Venus, with the hopes that since its bottom cloud layers are so hot that Sulfuric Acid disintegrates into Sulphur Dioxide, and water vapor, you could make water vapor the dominant factor over Sulfuric Acid.  It is a hope.

I think that is plenty for now.

Done.

Well actually there is a little more to say.  To make the six work like a solar wind turbine, the magnitude of the six magnetic fields would be throttled as well.  When they were orbiting away from the sun and in the direction of the solar wind, the magnitude of the fields would be maximized, and when they were orbiting towards the sun and in opposition to the direction of the solar wind, the magnitude of the magnetic fields would be minimized, but hopefully still strong enough to shield the atmosphere of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-11 10:38:28)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#108 2019-05-11 17:11:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,528

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

In addition onto the previous post, I anticipate that the Tharsis rise could be a magnetic target to propel the orbital magnetic devices.  While the effects would be small, over time they would count.  There could be other magnetic targets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharsis

In addition, the various orbital devices could attract and repulse each other as needed.

Then there are Phobos and Demos.  If they had magnetic fields attached, then due to their inertia, they could serve as a "Flywheel" of sorts for the system.  Of course these objects could have habitats in association with them.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#109 2020-08-18 17:39:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,690

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

It looks like we need to fix earths magnetic field...

NASA watches as weird 'dent' in Earth's magnetic field above South America and the nearby Atlantic Ocean
Meet the South Atlantic Anomaly, a strange dent in Earth's magnetic field...

theres-a-dent-in-earths-magnetic-field-what-could-this-mean-for-the-satellites.jpg

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#110 2020-08-24 17:29:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,690

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Seems that The Earth's core is younger than previously believed, according to new research

If earths core was heating up then the patch which has a lower magnetic field would make sense as its above the curie temperature where it takes on a field polarity....

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