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#76 2018-03-21 20:53:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I found the chemistry of the high temperature solar cells and how they are a probable build on the lunar surface item seeing that the moons crust is made of these minerals.

Making colorful buildings that convert solar light into energy

makingcolorf.jpg

This would also help concentrating mirrors that only bring up the illumination on the cells to 1.5 to 2 earth levels. Engineers invent transparent coating that cools solar cells to boost efficiency

Then again why not go for that next level of Solar cell design with over 50% energy-conversion efficiency

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#77 2018-03-22 11:44:13

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I found your last post to be very entertaining SpaceNut!

I don't think I have much to contribute beyond that for the topic of solar cells at this time.  So, if you can tolerate it I will give views on the nature of a process I would plan for Utopia Planetia, and Arcadia Planitia, and such places where we would hope to use solar cells, and various fluid containing pipelines in order to facilitate life support.

This article again:
http://midnightinthedesert.com/mars-ice … -superior/
Quote:

Scientists examined part of Mars’ Utopia Planitia region, in the mid-northern latitudes, with the orbiter’s ground-penetrating Shallow Radar (SHARAD) instrument. Analyses of data from more than 600 overhead passes with the onboard radar instrument reveal a deposit more extensive in area than the state of New Mexico. The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that’s 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.
At the latitude of this deposit — about halfway from the equator to the pole — water ice cannot persist on the surface of Mars today. It sublimes into water vapor in the planet’s thin, dry atmosphere. The Utopia deposit is shielded from the atmosphere by a soil covering estimated to be about 3 to 33 feet (1 to 10 meters) thick.

While they do mention the regolith and ice, they fail to mention the voids in the ice which apparently exist.  Most probably I think as sublimation has likely penetrated into the ground in quite a few places, the specific gravity of the mixture is less than pure ice.

If we account for the voids and the regolith and the fact that liquid water will have about 90% the volume of the ice, still it should not be hard to achieve depths of water in excess of 1 bar water column.  But not so much more than that the divers would have to fear Nitrogen narcosis.  So, ideal, in my mind.

Pipelines will be rather protected under a melted body of water on Mars.  And this topic is centered on pipelines.

I want to assure the readers that it will not all have to be ice water.

Ice water will be sensible for the bulk of it, for the purpose of chemosynthesis, canals, energy storage, and even underwater containerized or diving bell photo-gardening.

But for the comfort of humans sections can have a more pleasing environment.  Partitioning is an option.

The regolith is a gift as well as the ice.  The regolith can create berms, which will partition un-melted ice to the sides of a canal from the melted water of the canal.  So, limiting the instability.  Utopia Planetia's mixture of ice and regolith seems perfect to me for that reason.

For the children:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm

I would think that most locations of significant human habitation would be due to the locality of a financial asset.  Perhaps a mineral to extract, a sandstone deposit to burrow homes into, or a lava tube (Less likely), or perhaps even limestone (not so likely).  Or perhaps just location, or the fact that for some reason in the past people put down roots there.

If I understand correctly, a polder is a circular berm, or perhaps I suppose of some other geometry that connects to itself, and so isolated it's interior environment to some degree from the exterior environment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder
Quote:

A polder (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈpɔldər] ( listen)) is a low-lying tract of land enclosed by dikes that forms an artificial hydrological entity, meaning it has no connection with outside water other than through manually operated devices. There are three types of polder:
Land reclaimed from a body of water, such as a lake or the sea bed
Flood plains separated from the sea or river by a dike
Marshes separated from the surrounding water by a dike and subsequently drained; these are also known as koogs especially in Germany

On Mars we would use dikes, not RobertDikes.  smile  But in the most common cases the interiors would be made to mimic an Antarctic dry valley lake.  This is an environmental step up as far as human comfort would experience.

These will use salt in the water to create stratification so that the bottom water can be much warmer than the upper water, just under the ice.

For instance the water under the ice if being salt could be degrees below zero, and the water at the bottom could be room temperature.  I think you are already aware of this SpaceNut but I am thinking of the young.

So, perhaps you could build such a polder above a sandstone deposit, and have homes in the sandstone below, or perhaps you would have built structures in the warm water at the bottom.  Perhaps built of fiberglass.

......

I will cut this post shorter than it could be by saying that indeed in the un-melted ice body, you might make yourself cathedral like enclosures counterweighted by the regolith/ice mixture.

Pipelines could interconnect all of these manufactured environments.

May I also say again that I am extremely pleased that we have found common ground per high temperature solar cells!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-03-22 12:21:40)


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#78 2018-06-20 18:45:12

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The base construction will benefit from connecting the power plant, fuel making facility, water processing plant ect..  all towards the BFR and to the habitat so long as these are relatively short as it will reduce chances of connection being damaged and keep what we want from escaping.

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#79 2018-12-27 19:42:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Pipe materials widthstanding the diameter still can only move so much fluid through it to any destination.
A page with through put
https://flexpvc.com/Reference/WaterFlow … Size.shtml

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#80 2018-12-28 21:07:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I do not have a lock on what you are currently investigating.  However I will offer this, and then some more commentary.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h … -pipelines
Quote:

Gaseous hydrogen can be transported through pipelines much the way natural gas is today. Approximately 1,600 miles of hydrogen pipelines are currently operating in the United States. Owned by merchant hydrogen producers, these pipelines are located where large hydrogen users, such as petroleum refineries and chemical plants, are concentrated such as the Gulf Coast region.

Transporting gaseous hydrogen via existing pipelines is a low-cost option for delivering large volumes of hydrogen. The high initial capital costs of new pipeline construction constitute a major barrier to expanding hydrogen pipeline delivery infrastructure. Research today therefore focuses on overcoming technical concerns related to pipeline transmission, including:
The potential for hydrogen to embrittle the steel and welds used to fabricate the pipelines
The need to control hydrogen permeation and leaks
The need for lower cost, more reliable, and more durable hydrogen compression technology.
Potential solutions include using fiber reinforced polymer (FRP) pipelines for hydrogen distribution. The installation costs for FRP pipelines are about 20% less than that of steel pipelines because the FRP can be obtained in sections that are much longer than steel,1,2 minimizing welding requirements.
One possibility for rapidly expanding the hydrogen delivery infrastructure is to adapt part of the natural gas delivery infrastructure to accommodate hydrogen. Converting natural gas pipelines to carry a blend of natural gas and hydrogen (up to about 15% hydrogen) may require only modest modifications to the pipeline.3 Converting existing natural gas pipelines to deliver pure hydrogen may require more substantial modifications. Current research and analyses are examining both approaches.
Notes
1 See the Natural Gas Pipeline Technology Overview from Argonne National Laboratory.
2 FRP can be delivered in lengths of up to 0.5 mile.
3 See the National Renewable Energy Laboratory report Blending Hydrogen into Natural G

So it is my opinion now that Hydrogen pipelines for Mars are not out of the question.  I originally went down that path because I was concerned that there might be a needed mineral deposit to mine were there would be little water.  I felt that if you sent Hydrogen to that location by pipe, then not only could you generate power, but an output of water would result.  Of course you might react the Hydrogen with CO2 in order to produce that result.  Not sure how much power you would get, I suppose some.  And then you might be best off with a fuel cell of some sort with a catalyst, I am imagining.

……


Now as I see it I think that water is going to be available in most places on Mars, and even near the equator, quite often.

Still I suppose if there is a mineral deposit of importance in a very dry place, perhaps this would be competitive.

Against the idea is the fact that almost anywhere on Mars should have solar energy available except for dust storms, winter, and nighttime.

For the idea is my intuition that Copper and Aluminum will be precious, and any chance to have a work around is worth thinking about.

So, I have made a case for a dry mineral deposit, a method that might have merit.

…..

But I would consider a more ambitious plan, where water split into Oxygen and Hydrogen at mid latitudes with solar energy, would take two different pathways.

The Oxygen would be consumed by people I would think.

The Hydrogen could be piped into ice covered bodies of water.  CO2 local to those ice covered bodies of water would be pumped into those waters.

Microbes would consume those chemicals and generate heat into the water.  They would also create biomass.

So that is a rough diagram.  Probably the biomass intended to eventually be food and plastics.  The food and plastics would be transported from the ice covered bodies of water to the cities with people in them.


……


However I am quite interested in what you may have in mind.  Water transport risks freezing, but that is not necessarily a show stopper.

What's on your mind Spacenut?

Last edited by Void (2018-12-28 21:20:42)


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#81 2018-12-28 21:29:08

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Co2 and H2 in a reation is a Sabatier reaction which does have a catalyst and requires a high pressure source of Co2 (75 psi in liquid form) to enter the chamber to create a phase change at elevated temperature to form the output of CH4 (methane) and H2O. With the chamber being preheated to start and sustain the reaction.

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#82 2018-12-28 22:01:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

While a solar power pipeline to the poles would be ok I think nuclear kilowatt units would be a bit better and if the digging units are a low power nuclear version of the same to bring the and dump the collected ice/soil from at the poles to be heated in a chamber that is filled with the collected ice. We will end up with quite possibly some co2 at pressure, water brime and some minerals that we might want once the chamber is empty. The co2 and water brime would flow through the pipes pumped to the destination possible by solar where we would process the water to refine it and make it cleaner for use.

As you can see the reference of pipe diameter now comes into play for the flow rate and how much we can move over time to the destination. This aid in determining the rate of digging and processing at the poles in a heat chamber before putting it down the pipeline. This also is used to determine the amount of storage tank at the recieving end of the pipelines destination.

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#83 2018-12-29 06:11:16

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Your previous post is good.
There are some concerns about nuclear power however.  If you get the fuel from Earth you have to pay for it.
If you get the fuel from Mars you have to exert the necessary efforts which I think will be large.  That's not to say you can't do it.

…..
I have this little toy to consider.  It is a couple of years old +.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmaho … b8f7627944
Quote:

Harvard Scientist Engineers Bacterium That Inhales CO2, Produces Energy -- A 'Bionic Leaf'

……

Nocera’s artificial leaf, developed while he was at MIT, made a splash five years ago because the wafer of silicon and other elements can be dropped in water, exposed to sunlight, and it will continuously split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen, a clean burning fuel, is typically made from natural gas in a process that emits greenhouse gases.

……

Nocera expects his bacteria to make a big splash, like his leaf, because they produce energy far more efficiently than plants do on their own. Plants convert sunlight to biomass at about 1 percent efficiency, he said, after using most of their energy to survive. Nocera’s bacteria produce biomass at 10.6 percent and alcohol at 6.4 percent efficiency. The alcohol can be burned directly. The biomass can be made into fuel.

“I can just let the bugs grow exponentially. They’re eating hydrogen, that’s their only food source, and then they breathe in CO2, and they keep multiplying. They procreate, and that goes into an exponential growth curve.”

So, I don't know if his "Bionic Leaf" a better way to get Hydrogen and Oxygen or not. 

However I do like a biological system based on Bacterial Chemosynthesis that has a Quote: "10.6" percent efficiency.

Here on Earth plants however don't have to be babied as much perhaps as his system.  However on Mars using plants requires a lot of fussing.

While the effort to make Alcohol on Mars may have uses, I might like instead the production of Methane and biomass.  The Methane in some cases released to atmosphere for terraform purposes, and the biomass in some cases to produce food.

…..

Now this is not exactly what I want, they messed with a bacteria which eats Hydrogen and breaths CO2, they removed the Hydrogen source and added electricity.  And they get a small amount of protein. Something to keep as a tool I should think, if they ever make it effective.  But until then I would look to have the bacteria produce calories and protein from Hydrogen and CO2.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovati … 180964474/
Quote:

Take water, carbon dioxide and microbes, add a jolt of electricity and a dash of time, and voila: protein. This recipe comes from Finnish scientists, who say they’ve developed a technique for making food nearly out of thin air.

Well, sort of. The food is a powder made from a type of bacteria that lives on hydrogen. That's not exactly out of thin air, and right now it takes two weeks to produce a single gram. Hardly the revolution you might have read about in the headlines.
But the researchers say that—if the production process could be scaled up—it could be a cheap way to feed livestock, freeing up land to grow food for humans, or plant carbon-dioxide-sucking trees. Further down the road, it could even be a meat alternative for humans, though it likely wouldn't be an easy sell on menus.
“It’s not so much different than making beer, but in making beer of course you use sugar as the raw material but in this case we use hydrogen,” says senior scientist Juha-Pekka Pitkänen of the VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland, a state-controlled scientific research center.

By this Pitkänen means both processes begin with feeding a single-celled organism to produce an edible (or drinkable) product.  The protein creation process starts with hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria, which use hydrogen as their energy source. The scientists put the bacteria in a coffee-cup-sized bioreactor along with water and an electric water splitter. The splitter splits water into hydrogen and oxygen; the bacteria eats the hydrogen. Combined with carbon from the atmosphere, and a small amount of added “fertilizers” (ammonia, phosphorous and various inorganic salts), the end product is a dry bacteria powder that is about 50 percent protein, 25 percent carbohydrate, and 25 percent fats and nucleic acids. It can be used as is, or processed more to make pure protein, researchers say. Right now it has very little taste and a texture similar to dry yeast; the texture can also be altered if slightly different microbes are used. 
The next step for researchers is to refine the process to produce protein on a much larger scale. This will involve building new reactors, improving efficiency, and adjusting energy levels to help the bacteria grow as quickly as possible.
If this scaling-up is successful, it could create a food production system that doesn’t rely on traditional agricultural processes. It also has the potential to be highly sustainable – researchers say their estimates show it could be significantly more energy efficient than photosynthesis in terms of the amount of energy input necessary to produce a given amount of food.
“We don’t require arable land,” says Pitkänen. “We can do this in a desert environment or in other places unsuitable for agriculture.”

The work is part of an ambitious project backed by the Finnish government to reduce carbon emissions through innovation. Pitkänen and his team’s work was a joint effort between the VTT Technical Research Centre and Lappeenranta University of Technology. 

The first major goal of the project is to produce the protein on a large enough scale to use as animal feed. That way, land currently used to grow feed crops like corn and hay could be used for more sustainable purposes, such as planting trees. This could be especially important in places where valuable forests are being clear cut to make way for cattle, such as in the Brazilian rainforest. The scientists envision the protein being produced in a shipping container-like building at a farm, using as small a footprint as possible.

Down the road, the scientists hope the protein could be used as an environmentally friendly protein source for humans. They envision a substance similar to tofu or Quorn, a meat substitute made from a fungal protein grown through fermentation. In theory, mobile protein production facilities could even be brought to areas experiencing famine, offering a cheap, healthy food source for starving people. Much further down the line, researchers envision countertop protein reactors for at-home use.
Creating food from single-celled organisms is not new. Humans have been eating some single-celled proteins (SCPs) – the blue-green algae spirulina, for example – for hundreds or thousands of years. But as the population grows and the impacts of agriculture on the environment increase, producing SCPs from sources including bacteria, yeast and fungi has become a subject of intensive study. A recent review of the research from New Zealand scientists suggests using SCPs as human food has both advantages and disadvantages. In order to be a useful food product, a given SCP must be genetically stable, highly productive and resistant to subtle changes in pH and other environmental conditions. It’s also difficult to sell novel protein sources to the public, the researchers concluded. Other research suggests that SCPs are a lesser-quality protein source than foods like meat, and have potential to be allergenic.
But if this new product proves successful, it could have advantages over other SCPs such as spirulina because it can grow with so little equipment in almost any environment.

Despite these potential barriers, Pitkänen and his colleagues are optimistic. They hope to have a product ready for market in a decade or so. 
“It would tick so many boxes related to sustainability,” Pitkänen says. The human population is increasing, CO2 levels are increasing. So it could really solve big issues.”

While the production of food, is sort of off topic, in the end the purpose of power transmission is to produce something needed, so I see this as OK.

Greenhouses are fine, but may not supply as many calories for the input effort.  If I lived on Mars, I would surely want to have some vegetables, but would also like a mass produced food in bulk, which I would hope would be of a lower cost.

The above needs work though.

Down the road I could imagine soups, and perhaps 3D printed foods like pizza.  Although from the sounds of it flavors will have to be added.

……

Ideally this food source would grow in an ice covered water reservoir, I hope a low cost containment.

So you might pipe in Hydrogen produced from solar energy, maybe nuclear, and inject some CO2 also into the water.

In Atmospheric Separations, I have speculated that other gasses may be separated from the Martian atmosphere to also provide chemical energy.  Post #42.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7150&p=2
Argon
48.25%
Nitrogen
47.25%
Oxygen
3.65%
Carbon monoxide
1.3925%
So, this might be a way to further promote chemosynthetic production, by adding these input to the "Containment".

Last edited by Void (2018-12-29 06:55:42)


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#84 2018-12-29 07:08:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

SpaceNut.  I made a post #83 prior to this it is long and rambling and possibly not entirely on topic, but describes a possible purpose for pipelines on Mars.

You said in your post #82:

While a solar power pipeline to the poles would be ok I think nuclear kilowatt units would be a bit better and if the digging units are a low power nuclear version of the same to bring the and dump the collected ice/soil from at the poles to be heated in a chamber that is filled with the collected ice. We will end up with quite possibly some co2 at pressure, water brime and some minerals that we might want once the chamber is empty. The co2 and water brime would flow through the pipes pumped to the destination possible by solar where we would process the water to refine it and make it cleaner for use.
As you can see the reference of pipe diameter now comes into play for the flow rate and how much we can move over time to the destination. This aid in determining the rate of digging and processing at the poles in a heat chamber before putting it down the pipeline. This also is used to determine the amount of storage tank at the recieving end of the pipelines destination.

Yes, I guess Martians using piping for various purposes on Mars will need to bone up on the piping technology.  Such technology will have it's limitations.  So will electric power distribution.

However, I can this morning think of three ways to move power from point A to point B.  There are likely others, which may not be financially sound.

1) Obviously electric power lines.  I seek to avoid these as I feel that Copper and Aluminum, may be costly to get.

2) Move chemical energy through pipelines.  This can also be assistive in the production of food, fuels, and plastics.

3) We touched on pneumatic energy transfers once recently.  Pneumatic method may have a place here and there.  It may be storable by various means also.  And during the day this process might be assisted by heating the pressurized Martian atmosphere with a solar focus.
Increasing the gasses molecular vibrations, and releasing it through a Motor-Generator setup to convert to electrical power at a location.
This process might be assistive in atmospheric separations.  Maybe on the compressed gas side.

In the end I prefer #2 and #3 for Mars, as we could almost call Mars, "Planet Goop".  Titan is much goopier, but we are working on the problems of Mars.  Water and CO2 are plentiful on Mars, and that suggests using plastic piping.  Probably new types, technologically improved for Mars.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-29 07:19:20)


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#85 2018-12-29 11:43:07

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

We could even fill a pipe with an electrolyte and plates at given intervals and the other pipe would have the opposite electrolyte and do the same to create battery connections along the full length of the lines. Put a few circuilating pumps to keep the electrolyte moving and add a recharging point along its path to keep it at full strength.

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#86 2018-12-29 13:39:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Now you are cooking with gas, as has been said elsewise.

A relationship to a flow battery?  It looks quite hopeful.  Something like the human circulatory system.  Various organs interlinked, a moving fluid that connects the sub-processes.

Might it be a loop?  With hearts to pump.  Solar Cells to act as lungs, and many other organs?

Please elaborate.

Small scale with plastic or other pipes, maybe.

Mega scale with boring company tunnels?

I see that we could imagine pathways between places of importance.  Ice deposits, ore deposits, communities.

If then sort of a freeway, then a linear composition with solar cell arrays in a line.  The possibility of robots being recharged at any point.  Transit methods supported by refueling many times.  If Copper and Aluminum availability are a problem the vehicles with fuel cell power, where they stop to be refueled.  If Copper and Aluminum not that hard to get then Hyperloop/Magnetic?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-29 13:43:49)


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#87 2018-12-29 14:15:11

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The battery section is simular to a car battery in application but with the sides are a flow through for the electrolyte to enter and exit on the oposite sides. The battery section could be of various sizes to allow for higher voltages and the plate size is maximized for the section that the electrolyte comes in contact with them. The entrance and exit to the section could be smaller or the same size as the section just add the pipe like PVC glued to the compartment that holds the plates as a complete assembly with the contact posts rising above ground for any thing to charge up from.

Just connect the DC charger to the posts and then to the device that you are charging up. They can be put at any distance appart to optimize for range of the vehicles in use. With the flow of electrolyte the current could be quite high from each section as its moving and not stagnant as a normal battery is.

Place cut off valves for each side of the battery section to allow for its removal if any plates fail. burry or leave ontop of the soil will not matter much as keeping it from freezing is done with circulation and recharging of the electrolyte within the tubing or pipe and could be a closed loop.

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#88 2018-12-29 14:43:03

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Nice!  I think so.


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#89 2018-12-29 16:28:42

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 187

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Carbon suboxide C3O2 on Earth melts at -111.3oC and boils at 6.8oC. So C3O2 is a liquid on Mars and could it be transported in pipes? Likely, C3O2 decomposes to carbon monoxide and carbon. The monoxide is a starting chemical compound for other compounds and can be burnt in oxygen. With hydrogen from water splitting, syngas is formed from CO and H2.
Water hydrolysis of C3O2 gives malonic acid. Partial decarboxylation gives acetic acid. Partial hydrogen reduction gives propionic acid. All can be used in applied biological situation such as

IanM wrote:

Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Acetic (EDIT:Propionic) Acid would be:
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)

Therefore, a settlement on Mars that received liquid carbon suboxide in pipes from factories can feed bacteria that use sulfate or perchlorate to oxidize propionic acid to glucose that is farmed for human uses.

In essence, a suitable chemical compound is a fuel for electricity and food.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-12-29 16:53:26)

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#90 2018-12-29 16:48:44

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

So the next part of a pipeline battery is what to use from insitu materials for the Pipe, plates, and for the electrolytes.

I sugested PVC for the pipe but would need help to determine if thats even possible for mars to which if I remember correctly the Homestead work that Robert Dyck did indicated that it was possible..

Plates are typically metal but could be carbon...Ex. lead, iron, Lithium, Copper, Nickle all come to mind

Electrolytes are acids for the most part.

http://www.123seminarsonly.com/Seminar- … -Paper.pdf
structure and compatibility of a magnesium electrolyte with a sulphur cathode

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.09951v1.pdf
A High Efficiency Aluminum-Ion Battery Using an AlCl3-Urea Ionic Liquid Analogue Electrolyte

Another for the same topic
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/114/5/834.full.pdf
High Coulombic efficiency aluminum-ion battery using an AlCl3-urea ionic liquid analog electrolyte

We can also use what we are going to leave on the surface as well to create parts from.

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#91 2019-03-29 19:08:24

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I have not forgotten the topic as it has great value for when we are there to stay.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 035820.pdf
A Corrosion Risk Assessment Model for Underground Pipe

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#92 2019-03-29 19:29:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 669

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

For SpaceNut .... This study from 2009 seems as relevant today as it was then.

One observation that came to mind as I reviewed the paper is that an option apparently not considered was to run the pipe through a tunnel large enough to permit inspection.  While the methods ultimately chosen to protect the pipe appear to have held up for a number of years, the uncertainties due to poor or missing documentation seem to have loomed large as time advanced.

Since developers of systems on Mars have the opportunity to start from scratch, I hope that the option of routing pipes through tunnels large enough for periodic inspection (and maintenance if necessary) will be included in the design toolkit.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

I have not forgotten the topic as it has great value for when we are there to stay.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 035820.pdf
A Corrosion Risk Assessment Model for Underground Pipe

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#93 2019-03-30 20:54:31

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Please continue without me.  I will stand aside for now.  Have been thinking about lava tubes, pneumatic system, energy storage, Hemp and bamboo forests.  I will show up later perhaps with such silly stuff.

smile

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#94 2019-03-31 08:54:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

One reason tunnels get small with thenumber of pipes within them is we keep using the tunnels with build up of extra pipes as to not require building more tunnels to carry them on earth. Mars will come to an energy cost not cash as it does here.

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#95 2019-04-01 22:45:39

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 187

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) can be mass produced.
carbon dioxide + hydrogen ---> ethylene + water
chlorine species + hydrogen ---> liquid chlorine at Martian outdoor temperature + hydrogen ion species
ethylene + chlorine ---> vinyl chloride.

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#96 2019-04-02 18:23:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Sure is a scaleable thought for the future state mars and even compatible for slow increase of capability for man as he needs to make temporary storage and other such means to save what we create for later.

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#97 2019-04-03 19:30:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,995

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Thanks for the technical advice knightdepaix.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-04-03 19:31:10)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#98 2019-04-07 19:00:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

https://www.hunker.com/12271617/ingredi … ufacturing

This thermoplastic material is used in a myriad of products including water pipe and electrical conduit in a number of colors, are tolerant to ultraviolet light, and have various degrees of flexibility.

https://www.hunker.com/13401573/pvc-pip … ng-process

PVC pipes are created by starting with a molten mixture of the material and shaping them around a cast. The casts are made to be the exact width of the pipe. The mixture is poured into a cast and surrounded by an outer shell. The complete set is then placed into an oven to be cooked. Once the pipe has solidified, it is cooled and moved into finishing.

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#99 2019-04-08 10:23:02

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 669

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

For SpaceNut (and anyone interested in design of underground infrastructure on Mars) ...

A headline in today's Internet news feed caught my eye, with respect to this topic ...

There is need to replace a 100 year old single track railroad tunnel under a major river between New York and New Jersey.

The reason for the headline is a battle over funding of the needed work.

In the context of planning for Mars, and with reference to an observation by SpaceNut in recent weeks, there is need for planners to anticipate (a) growth of use of a tunnel and (b) the need to provide an alternative pathway so that the primary tunnel can receive periodic maintenance.

While it is unlikely a tunnel on Mars would show the deterioration caused by water from a river overhead, as is the case with the New Jersey/New York tunnel, as has been pointed out by Elderflower not long ago, the possibility of moisture in the soil/regolith of Mars exists until it has been disproven.

(th)

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#100 2019-04-08 17:10:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,325

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The issue for mars has more to do with the equipment needed to produce the desired diameter tube with regards to delivered mass and energy needs to make it work on mars.

A 1 meter diameter tube still can act as a crawl connection. with Of course a 2 meter tube is a walk in the park and large is where we can get serious about other uses..

The other part of the issue for materials is the mass that is supported on its surface to ground as there is limited ability to shore up from within as a mine shaft would do. Adding a grid re-enforcement on the outside like the iso grid pattern using extra materials like that which is use in the space capsule design would give the tube more load baring weight.

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