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#1 2019-03-28 11:04:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,972

Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

I feel that this claim rates a topic of it's own.  I tend to believe it at this point.  I always had some trouble with the notion that everything went kaput after 500 million years.
https://www.space.com/mars-big-rivers-b … years.html
Quote:

Mars had large rivers long after the planet lost most of its atmosphere to space, a new study suggests.
That great thinning, which was driven by air-stripping solar particles, was mostly complete by 3.7 billion years ago, leaving Mars with an atmosphere far wispier than Earth's. But Martian rivers likely didn't totally dry out until less than 1 billion years ago, the new study found. And these waterways were big — wider, on average, than those on Earth.
"We can start to see that Mars didn't just have one wet period early in its history and then dried out," study lead author Edwin Kite, an assistant professor of geophysical sciences at the University of Chicago, told Space.com. "It's more complicated than that; there were multiple wet periods."

I'm short on time now, but will say this will impact panspermia potentials, the potential for prior and existing life on Mars, and how to terraform, and it's potential for terraforming.

I will also drop in and say that if such rivers with much silt were running, they would definitely be a contribution to the removal of atmosphere from Mars.  Not just the claims of removal by the solar wind.  And that would mean, that in the sediments will be resources for terraforming.  Maybe not easy to utilize, but they should be there.

Really exciting claims.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-28 11:06:44)


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#2 2019-03-29 16:26:56

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,972

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

This perhaps maybe, can suggest that we should measure twice and cut once in the selection of places to begin on Mars, either for finding life, or for setting up a base. 

https://phys.org/news/2019-03-evidence- … -mars.html
Quote:

New evidence of deep groundwater on Mars
by University of Southern California

Recurrent Slope Linae on the Palikir Crater walls on Mars. Credit: NASA/JPL/University of Arizona
In mid-2018, researchers supported by the Italian Space Agency detected the presence of a deep-water lake on Mars under its south polar ice caps. Now, researchers at the USC Arid Climate and Water Research Center (AWARE) have published a study that suggests deep groundwater could still be active on Mars and could originate surface streams in some near-equatorial areas on Mars.

The researchers at USC have determined that groundwater likely exists in a broader geographical area than just the poles of Mars and that there is an active system, as deep as 750 meters, from which groundwater comes to the surface through cracks in the specific craters they analyzed.
Heggy, who is a member of the Mars Express Sounding radar experiment MARSIS probing Mars subsurface, and co-author Abotalib Z. Abotalib, a postdoctoral research associate at USC, studied the characteristics of Mars Recurrent Slope Linea, which are akin to dried, short streams of water that appear on some crater walls on Mars.
Scientists previously thought these features were affiliated with surface water flow or close subsurface water flow, says Heggy.
"We suggest that this may not be true. We propose an alternative hypothesis that they originate from a deep pressurized groundwater source which comes to the surface moving upward along ground cracks," Heggy says.
"The experience we gained from our research in desert hydrology was the cornerstone in reaching this conclusion. We have seen the same mechanisms in the North African Sahara and in the Arabian Peninsula, and it helped us explore the same mechanism on Mars," said Abotalib Z. Abotalib, the paper's first author.
The two scientists concluded that fractures within some of Mars' craters, enabled water springs to rise up to the surface as a result of pressure deep below. These springs leaked onto the surface, generating the sharp and distinct linear features found on the walls of these craters. The scientists also provide an explanation on how these water features fluctuate with seasonality on Mars.
The study, to be published on March 28, 2019, in Nature Geoscience, suggests that groundwater might be deeper than previously thought in areas where such streams are observed on Mars. The findings suggest that the exposed part of these ground fractures associated with these springs as the primary location candidates to explore Mars' habitability. Their work suggests that new probing methods should be developed to study these fractures.

Method:
Previous research to explore groundwater on Mars relied on interpreting the returned electromagnetic echoes sent from the radar-probing experiments from orbit onboard Mars Express and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. These experiments measured the reflection of the waves from both the surface and the subsurface whenever penetration was possible. However, this earlier method did not yet provide evidence of groundwater occurrence beyond the 2018 South Pole detection.
The authors of this current Nature Geoscience study used hi-resolution optical images and modeling to study the walls of large impact craters on Mars. The goal was to correlate the presence of fractures with the sources of streams that generate short water flows.
Heggy and Abotalib, who have long studied subsurface aquifers and groundwater flow movement on Earth and in desert environments, found similarities between the groundwater moving mechanisms in the Sahara and on Mars.
"Groundwater is strong evidence for the past similarity between Mars and Earth—it suggest they have a similar evolution, to some extent," says Heggy.
He says this deep source of groundwater is the most convincing evidence of similarities between the two planets—it suggest both may have had wet periods long enough to create such an active groundwater system.
For Heggy, an advocate for water science and water science education in arid areas, this particular study is not about colonization. But he says these rare and puzzling water flows on Mars are of big interest to the science community.
"Understanding how groundwater has formed on Mars, where it is today and how it is moving helps us constrain ambiguities on the evolution of climatic conditions on Mars for the last three billion years and how these conditions formed this groundwater system. It helps us to understand the similarities to our own planet and if we are going through the same climate evolution and the same path that Mars is going. Understanding Mars' evolution is crucial for understanding our own Earth's long-term evolution and groundwater is a key element in this process. "
The new study suggests that the groundwater that is the source of these water flows could be at depths starting at 750 meters deep. "Such depth requires us to consider more deep-probing techniques to look for the source of this groundwater versus looking for shallow sources of water, " says Heggy.

While the current SpaceX plan is courageous and a good starter concept, I would consider options before implementing it.

My own opinion is having return to Earth reserves already in Martian orbit per "O.F." makes sense, also sending a robot Starship with nuclear power (Kilopower) capabilities, and also bringing with it Hydrogen is something to consider before committing to a plan.

If aquifers in the lower latitudes are a possibility, and if Bruce Willis and his crew are available then "Drill baby drill", may be a good plan.  If it were possible, then from the aquifers would be available water and salts.  From the salts perhaps metals and other chemicals.

A problem I see with going for the mining of ice at higher latitudes, is that you must land on an ice slab where not only is it likely that the upper ice has been eroded by sublimation, but the overlying protective material of soil may indeed be unstable. 

So, there are choices to consider.  At least to consider before committing to a plan.

I also have issues with the potential of a Martian biology, which now seems more likely.  It is not only the morality of endangering two biological systems, Earths for sure, and perhaps one on Mars, but the value of such a Martian biology needs to be measured before we destroy it.  Not that it necessarily will be destroyed, but what a loss to us if it is an independent genesis?  What a loss if it is related to the family of life on Earth?  Something related to us that adapted to Mars.  This would broaden our "Gene pool" vastly.  Not something to be careless with.

However we likely cannot properly discover it or analyze it without risking damage.  The game in my opinion is to use best practices, and to figure what those should be to elevate potential gain and reduce potential losses.

I am not proposing a license to dither however.  Not permission to hold the domain hostage to some new Medieval mind set.  No silly prancing about by circular thinkers who simply want to be parasites to the human effort, draining the motion of the linear to the circular and downward spiral potential.  I don't like the failure option at all.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-29 16:41:16)


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#3 2019-03-29 17:41:04

louis
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From: UK
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Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Thanks for that Void - very, very interesting.

Water is the cradle of life.  Sounds like there would have been a substantial crossover with early Earth life - so at the very least exchange of water-dwelling unicellular life on Earth with Mars would have taken place via the millions of meteorite-exchange impacts that would have taken place (even if life never got started on its own on Mars).  If that is the scenario then expect to find RNA/DNA on Mars.

But of course this opens up many possibilities...multi-cellular life might still be possible on the surface with a depleted atmosphere. It's not impossible.  Just because it didn't happen that way on Earth, doesn't mean it couldn't on Mars. We know camels carry huge fat reserves and can carry vast quantities of water in their stomach.  We know some creatures stores huge amounts of food in mouth pouches. There is nothing particularly incredible about multicellular organisms perhaps storing water on their person which they can "breathe" internally.

Void wrote:

I feel that this claim rates a topic of it's own.  I tend to believe it at this point.  I always had some trouble with the notion that everything went kaput after 500 million years.
https://www.space.com/mars-big-rivers-b … years.html
Quote:

Mars had large rivers long after the planet lost most of its atmosphere to space, a new study suggests.
That great thinning, which was driven by air-stripping solar particles, was mostly complete by 3.7 billion years ago, leaving Mars with an atmosphere far wispier than Earth's. But Martian rivers likely didn't totally dry out until less than 1 billion years ago, the new study found. And these waterways were big — wider, on average, than those on Earth.
"We can start to see that Mars didn't just have one wet period early in its history and then dried out," study lead author Edwin Kite, an assistant professor of geophysical sciences at the University of Chicago, told Space.com. "It's more complicated than that; there were multiple wet periods."

I'm short on time now, but will say this will impact panspermia potentials, the potential for prior and existing life on Mars, and how to terraform, and it's potential for terraforming.

I will also drop in and say that if such rivers with much silt were running, they would definitely be a contribution to the removal of atmosphere from Mars.  Not just the claims of removal by the solar wind.  And that would mean, that in the sediments will be resources for terraforming.  Maybe not easy to utilize, but they should be there.

Really exciting claims.

Done.


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#4 2019-03-30 10:04:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Thank You Louis,

I agree that multicellular life will be a most optimistic notion, but not completely impossible.  It does seem that microbes get a boost in probability in this situation.  It is a factor to consider in our present reality.

Mars for sure has fuels for life to live on and Oxygen sources as well.  Water that can be used by life then of course is the other concern.
We can speculate, but real facts on the ground need to be investigated.  We have mostly the data that NASA and the ESA, and the Soviet programs obtained.  So, far no fossils have been observed of a large sort, and the instrumentation applied is apparently not able to make a positive determination on small multicellular life or microbial life.  So, we have to consider the risk/rewards of being a bit more careless about planetary protection notions.  Because of a lack of sufficient information on this, I will set it aside, because deeper speculation would more likely lead us into a fantasy mode than a analytical mode.  We must decide what risks to take to obtain further information.  I think that is the next thing to do.

As for terraforming and habitation of Mars, then if it is decided to proceed, we can minimize the potential risks while not allowing a crippling of the effort.

I am not in support of an atheistic approach to this.  The needs of certain social processes on Earth to justify a proclamation of humans as their own God, seem to me to be an enemy of the needs of the human race, and ultimately even perhaps to the supposed existing life on Mars.  We have had similar conversations before.  As I have said, I am not in favor of crafting human activities in space in support of the desires of selfish atheist religious desires to declare themselves the Gods of reality and the masters of the human process.  We are entitled to more than a place of servitude to those who propose to be our masters.  And they don't have a right to a "Jobs" program to be our masters.

There are many social entities in the human population who lust for the power of domination over the human race.  In the end this is a predator vs prey behavior that is a real thing of nature as I observe it.  To be human however as unlikely as it seems, is to evade the predation, and to I suppose be between two polarities, not to be prey and yet still to prosper.  But to evade be predated on, we also need to avoid the situation where we become a stupid very non-adaptive top predator ourselves.  The Morlocks and Eloy, it seems to me portrays a risk of splitting the human race in that manner, and then to throw out our ability to think.  We want to be on guard against that, as I think it will be the death of what we are, the thing that has great value.  But space offers medicine against that fate, I think, but we have to exercise awareness of the peril.

The space race 50 years ago is almost a fluke.  The conflict between powers, opened a void smile, and somehow space achievement occurred.  But I really think that they were rolling the dice to get humans to the Moon.  I think it was appropriate and mandated that the effort would be laid aside for this 50 years.  But it appears that the door is opening again now.  It is curious.  A person who does not now live told me that it takes 50 years or so, for a technological idea to mature to fruition.  I think that that person was right.


As for terraform potential for Mars, I visualize what might have occurred on Mars with periodic large river activity.  I think the process would have captured atmosphere to minerals as it does on Earth.  Volcanism on Mars really would be expected to be stronger in the past.  Perhaps also significant impacts from objects to Mars.  Any of these could have been an event which would provide a wet period.

At this time, I have noted two opinions.  One is that the south polar cap holds enough CO2 to bring atmospheric pressure to a double value of the now.  So, perhaps a median of 11 mb.  I have read that that value is sufficient to allow significant snowfalls, and from those temporary streams of water.  But the recent negative notion of Mars having only enough resources to triple the pressure to 16.5 tells me that for sure in the event of a stimulus Mars even now has the potential for a wetter period.  While the huge rivers notion suggests that it stopped a billion years ago, I still will think that there have since likely been lesser periods of wetness.

The factors contributing could be like this:
1) Volcanic Eruptions, send CO2 to be condensed onto ice caps.
2) The tilt of Mars is such that the average heating for both poles and the low latitudes are approximately the same.
3) Perhaps an impactor of some significance can then trigger a run-away event.

How I think that could work:

A top down process would lead to the CO2 vaporizing, this in turn would evaporate water ice.  The atmosphere would become more humid, and U.V. would split some of the water vapor, adding Oxygen to the atmosphere.  So even that, the greater amount of CO2 and greater amount of the greenhouse effect of water vapor would cause a temporary run-away greenhouse effect.  And then there is Methane in the ground.  We don't know the source or the amount stored in the ground.  But if the overlying ice degenerates then possibly significant amounts of Methane would be released.  Even a little more would help.

But the we are lead to believe that the solar wind will erode the atmosphere.  And if there is running water, the we should expect to see the atmosphere erode into the ground as we think it does on Earth, to be bonded to minerals.  But for Mars, I also think that atmosphere would be captured to clathrates in ice covered pools of water should they be deep enough.  Cold liquid water dissolves atmospheric gasses very well, especially CO2.

So then the run-away greenhouse effect would sputter out, as there would not be conditions sufficient to tip Mars to a Venus like condition.

Current terraform methods proposed seem to mirror this supposed more natural event of an atmospheric expansion.  It has been suggested to release greenhouse gasses, and perhaps to use impactors.  Also proposed are manipulation of albedo, and using Hydrogen bombs.  These are all top down methods.  I prefer to use those as it is possible, for terraforming, but to also consider a bottom up method.


As I see it the bottom up method could either involve nuclear force or solar methods, or a combination of the two.

The nuclear method will be controversial.  I have proposed previously that you could create a power source for Titan based on nuclear fusion with Hydrogen bombs.  But in this case you explode below the ice, to create a melt pool.  And then you do it again and again in the melt pool, making it larger and larger.  Then you tap the energy of heat available.  But of course you then contaminate a pool of water with radioactivity.  So, you would definitely want to keep that radioactivity isolated.  Just because the pool was radioactive would not prohibit biology in it.  Some organism can tolerate it.  The explosions should cook up chemicals for the life to live on, but then as well it should be possible to inject chemicals into the pool as well by industrial type processes.  And from the pool might emerge greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere.  Perhaps somewhat contaminated, but perhaps tolerable.  And as I have said, you would have a dust storm proof source of power by venting the heat of the pool to the Universe though perhaps heat engines.  The proposed use of Helium 3 from the Moon might allow the radioactivity of the process to be reduced.

If fusion or fission reactors could be used, then this might be less controversial.  You would simply create an ice covered pool, and dump your waste heat into it.  Perhaps less dirty as far as radiation is concerned.

Every one will much prefer solar methods to generate the pools, but just consider if you could grab a hydrogen bomb explosion by the tail, and make it serve our uses.  That is quite a source of power I think.

I would prefer not to directly involve the polar ice caps with nuclear explosions as it is the bulk of water.  Perhaps one of the ice slabs of significance in the high temperate zones could be used.

Then, I think we might want to moderate the rate of terraformation.  Obviously giant rivers of water would get in the way of travel and might also flood out places we would want to use.  In addition giant rivers would tend to suck gasses out of the atmosphere, which would be against our desires.  Further giant rivers would make it harder to keep a radioactive pool in isolation.  I think if we create such a thing, we want it to remain hydrologically isolated, and ice covered.

So, then what we want is the CO2 all evaporated, the humidity elevated, and some greenhouse gasses added to the atmosphere.  We may like limited small running streams, but not giant rivers.  I don't know if that level of control could be maintained, but it would be desired to do so.

Bottom up fusion terraforming with a pinch of top down terraforming looks petty good to me, but of course there will be political military issues to address, to get the human race on board.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-03-30 11:25:09)


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#5 2019-03-30 16:26:32

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

I think it's an open question as to whether fossils of large organisms have been found. If I had to guess I would say they have.

Look at these results:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ … t+Alien+TV

How about this video (of a dinosaur skull):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlMYszJ … GXETpx6ZMm

Or this small skeleton:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op5vXIfYiCA

I'm not saying I agree with every claim, but these artefacts definitely require further scrutiny and the way NASA studiously avoids discussing them or simply dismisses such claims is not very impressive as far as I am concerned.


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#6 2019-03-30 20:27:37

SpaceNut
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Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

If there were rivers then there would also be Oceans for life to spring up in as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_ocean_hypothesis

oceanmars.jpg.600x315_q80_crop-smart.jpg

http://www.sci-news.com/space/planetary … 03878.html

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#7 2019-03-30 20:44:40

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,972

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

For Louis, (And others)

I must be required to stand aside on that issue.  We now think that not only was there a early period of warmth and perhaps Oxygen in the atmosphere, but subsequently repeated periods of giant rivers for 3.5 billion years.  And even after that perhaps lesser wet events.  So, some permission to speculate is mandated I think.  However this then makes more required the appropriation of confirmed data.

Yes SpaceNut, what lies beneath those northern plains?  We see what we see, but is it a mask over what was?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-30 20:46:22)


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#8 2019-03-31 04:27:46

elderflower
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Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

There might have been rivers, swamps and salt pans rather than seas and oceans. It depends on the discharge of the rivers exceeding evaporation. On earth there are plenty of quite large rivers that disappear into the deserts and never reach the sea.

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#9 2019-03-31 05:17:44

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Am I missing something? I thought it was well established there was a northern ocean on Mars for a long period. This has I think been deduced from various features - especially coastal erosion features, depths of river valleys and nature of the terrain in the north...

The revision appears to relate more to how long such an ocean might have featured. On the question of rivers and deserts, whilst its true that significant rivers can "run into the sand" it's also true that the precipitation that feeds the rivers comes overwhelmingly from oceans. So I think it is reasonable to surmise that big rivers mean very large bodies of water.


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#10 2019-03-31 09:53:19

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,108

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

3.5 billions year and older Earth, Venus and Mars were all just formed from the priordeal soup which makes them all about the same for a starting point. Its over time and distance from the sun that changes what happens to each. So solar power levels that each recieved and there respective size contribute to how each has lost water and gain in heat levels. They each had different rates of cooling as a result of size and location play as very important role level to present day condition.
For eartyh life is supposed to have started in the oceans so it can be assumed that each did the same until either they bacame to hot or evaporated away. Time scale for life to spring up as well as to adapt to the changing condtions is what must happen next. So did life survive or die is the question. For earth its has survived but the answer for Mars and Venus is still unknown. We might think that it has but we do not know.

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#11 2019-03-31 11:27:49

Void
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Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Well, this topic is "Mars had big rivers for Billions of years.  And until a billion years ago.  So, the answer is probably "All of the above".

Sometimes big bodies of water, sometimes small very salty ones like the dead sea, but shallow, or even just salt pans.

This does suggest greater hopes for Martian life, but even more important to me, it indicates a terraform potential for Mars, much more early on then the notion that humans will live on a terraformed Mars where they don't need protective equipment.  It offers a quick hydraulic terraform method, that will only host liquid water, and also perhaps resources to actively restore the planet to something like Earth, over a long period of time.

We often only focus on the deficiencies of Mars.  We tend not to notice where Mars can be better than Earth.  That is due to a stubborn refusal to be adaptive.

Mars as it is now gives little to no assistance to the formation of fresh melt water.  Earth promotes the formation of fresh melt water.  But Earth is not as efficient as it could be at promoting fresh melt water.

The easiest terraform estimated to be possible for Mars would be to an average or mean atmospheric pressure of 16.5 mb.

We can then suppose another parallel universe where a Mars, and Earth and a Moon of Earth exist.  Each with an atmospheric pressure of 16.5 as the average or mean of their surface pressure.  Then also suppose that ice bodies exist on each.  Then ask about melt water for each.

I chose to include the Moon, to illustrate the situation more.  This particular notion of the "Moon" ignores the probability that such an atmosphere and such ice bodies would not exist on the Moon.  I am most interested in the Moons temperature profiles.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … n-the-moon
Quote:

Temperatures on the Moon vary between extremes of 120 °C during the lunar day and -150 °C during the lunar night. Some craters near the poles have areas that are in permanent shadow, these can reach temperatures down to -247 °C.

Stuff everyone knows I would think.

But for the Moon as I have described it, I think we can definitely agree that ice will melt during such "Days".  In fact it should also boil.

While the greenhouse effect for our Earth is helpful to retain an average elevated heat, it may inhibit day and summer melting by sharing thermal properties between locations and the day and night time.  Quite a lot of heat on Earth received from the sun during the day, is released to the night skies, and a lot of it without melting ice.

An alternate Earth with a 16.5 mb average or mean atmospheric pressure would have far less thermal inertia, and so the temperatures during the day (Equator) or the summer (Poles) would soar, probably to the degree that boiling would happen.


Mars would be similar to Earth but with ~43% of the solar flux.  I am betting that boiling would still happen, but not so much.

So then the nights and winters would produce torrential rains I would suppose, and as things cool off snowfalls.

The next day or summer would produce much melting and the perhaps boiling.

As I have been trying to indicate for years now, such an environment will be friendly to the formation of ice covered lakes and seas.  Such a world would be very efficient at storing the heat of the sun into such bodies of water.  The Earth is not so efficient.  We are happy that the atmospheric reservoir of our Earth stores heat day to night, and redistributes thermal differences by wind.  But such a Mars is far mor efficient at storing heat into reservoirs of water.

And while many of these bodies of water could have been hypersaline and very cold.  Antarctica shows the possibility of solar warmed bodies of water.

Many of the cases could have been very favorable to life in the past, if any on Mars.

For our proposed case of our life existing on Mars, it is obvious that this is where we need to go to find the mercy that Mars might offer.

Later on, Mars as a mini-Earth?  Well maybe.  Maybe.  But take what is offered early.  We will want it, in order to get to that notion.

I have been hammering and hammering you people on this for years and you just refuse to get it.  Silly things.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-31 11:54:33)


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#12 2019-03-31 12:24:46

Void
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Posts: 2,972

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

So, more of this:
https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2019/0 … 553795192/

https://news.usc.edu/155539/new-evidenc … r-on-mars/
Quote:

In mid-2018, researchers supported by the Italian Space Agency detected the presence of a deep-water lake on Mars under its south polar ice caps. Now, the researchers at USC have determined that groundwater likely exists in a broader geographical area than just the poles of Mars and that there is an active system, as deep as 750 meters, from which groundwater comes to the surface through cracks in the specific craters they analyzed.

For me this last link is very valuable.

I took a translation as I am American and a troglodyte therefore smile ~2460.62992 feet, so a bit less than 1/2 mile down.

Can this be entirely wrong?  Of course.  But if it is right, then humans might drill for artesian well, and get water, salts, and maybe even critters as well.

Lets not circle back to the 70's unless we have no choice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-31 12:30:24)


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#13 2019-03-31 15:16:52

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,108

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

The deep covered glaciers and hillside water staining are all indicators of New evidence of deep groundwater on Mars this has the same data in the article as well.

mars-crater-dark-streaks-boiling-water-brine-hg.jpg

Research Report: "A deep groundwater origin for recurring slope linea on Mars,"

The researchers at USC have determined that groundwater likely exists in a broader geographical area than just the poles of Mars and that there is an active system, as deep as 750 meters, from which groundwater comes to the surface through cracks in the specific craters they analyzed.

The two scientists concluded that fractures within some of Mars' craters, enabled water springs to rise up to the surface as a result of pressure deep below. These springs leaked onto the surface, generating the sharp and distinct linear features found on the walls of these craters. The scientists also provide an explanation on how these water features fluctuate with seasonality on Mars.

"Understanding how groundwater has formed on Mars, where it is today and how it is moving helps us constrain ambiguities on the evolution of climatic conditions on Mars for the last three billion years and how these conditions formed this groundwater system.

"It helps us to understand the similarities to our own planet and if we are going through the same climate evolution and the same path that Mars is going. Understanding Mars' evolution is crucial for understanding our own Earth's long-term evolution and groundwater is a key element in this process. "

Thats not ground water as that is what on earth gets as it sets above bedrock. What we get from under bedrock is artesian wells which is that pressure to which is meantion in the articles data.

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#14 2019-03-31 16:38:03

elderflower
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Posts: 1,087

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Here's my hypothesis:
The ocean evaporated at some point, apart from, perhaps, a frozen residue. Anyway it ceased to be an effective source of moisture. Mars being a bit chilly, much of the precipitation resulting from the drying up of the ocean and seas would have taken the form of snow at the poles and at high elevations. This would have formed glaciers and icecaps. With ongoing eruptions, particularly in Tharsis and Elysium, and with regular dust storms, such glaciers may have been simply buried. Some seem to still be present.
As the depth of burial increased over millions of years the increasing pressure  lowered the freezing point. Adding heat conducted from below due to plutonic activity might result in abrupt release of massive quantities of water which would be near boiling as it flows in the very low pressure atmosphere. The resulting injection of water vapour to the atmosphere would result in precipitation of snow on the poles and on higher ground, but rain or slush on lower elevations, forming rivers. It would also increase the atmospheric pressure and the greenhouse effect (temporarily) by release of CO2 from the polar deposits and by the increase in partial pressure of water vapour in the atmosphere.
Once the water has been frozen out and covered again in dust the planet would revert to the conditions we see at present, with very limited water available and CO2 freezing out on the poles. This cycle can repeat for as long as the Martian volcanic activity persists.
The presence of ice strata buried by later deposits would explain why some craters appear to have water slowly coming out of their walls and why there is water ice in canyon walls.

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#15 2019-03-31 16:42:25

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,972

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

We are in agreement, and I see you are being rather tolerant.  While that situation is in place, please allow me to make a case for active precipitation on Mars now.

I could suggest that at times there could be brief episodes where the CO2 in the Martian is augmented from polar CO2 ice deposits.  That is a suspicion.  Of course polar tilt and impactors would affect this, but I also think that their could be a natural oscillation.  I am not going to put all that much money on it, but the albedo of the temporary CO2 ice caps might be effected by the ground temperature. and vice versa.  It could remain stable, or it might oscillate over long periods of time.  So, more solar heat in the ground would lead to more CO2 in the atmosphere, and less to the seasonal polar caps.  That then would lead to more solar energy warming the ground, and so a positive feedback.
But then perhaps it can go the opposite way.  Something like Earth Ice ages.  Of similar length?  Or maybe possibly a much shorter time period for the oscillation.  I have little to no proof for this but I do observe that quite a few systems will oscillate on their own.

But please set that aside.  I am looking at dust devils and global dust storms as a possible source of fluids to fill the aquifers.

We could start with this:
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-electrici … rates.html
Electricity in Martian dust storms helps to form perchlorates
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/th … ust-storms

OK, I will just get to it.  I do believe that the average temperature of the environment rises during a global dust storm, and that the humidity rises as well.  Dust storms raise water vapor up high where it can be split by U.V. and the Hydrogen can be lost to space.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/th … ust-storms
Quote:

Rising air during global dust storms on Mars hoists water vapor high in the atmosphere, researchers using NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter report.
Regional dust storms every year uplift water to a lesser extent and appear to drive a seasonal pattern in loss of hydrogen from the top of Mars' atmosphere.
If Mars has a global dust storm in 2018, observations could aid understanding of its effects.

Well it did have a global dust storm smile  About every 3 years?

I have no proof, but I observe that a global dust storm raises the temperatures somewhat and also raises the humidity apparently.  It also may create hydrogen peroxide, and ultimately perchlorates.  It has aspects of electrical discharge. 

So, you are mixing water vapor and Perchlorates and perhaps hydrogen peroxide.  And you may have electrical discharges.

Or putting it simple, you may be mixing water vapor humidity with perchlorate salts, while heating the mix with an electrical discharge.  I think it could be possible for it to result in a liquid solution which could sink into the ground and fill aquifers.  In fact in certain places at higher latitudes, a fine dust of ice particles might be sucked into the process. 

Maybe not, but maybe.  It is just a thing to look for, if we could think of how to create a proper "looker" to see its existence or non-existence.

But this as well:
https://futurism.com/scientists-just-fo … uld-exist/
Quote:

Scientists Just Found Water on Mars Where They Thought None Could Exist
Newly-discovered ice could fuel and hydrate future manned missions.
Dom GaleonOctober 5th 2017
A Surprise Find
It’s long been known that Mars had large bodies of water some millions of years ago. Traces of these ancient Martian lakes and oceans have been found in recent years, thanks to information provided by probes and landers, like NASA’s Curiosity rover and the Odyssey spacecraft that currently orbits the red planet. Now, a team of astronomers from the Applied Physics Laboratory (APL) of Johns Hopkins University found large deposits of what could be permafrost ice in the most unlikeliest of places on the Martian surface.

So, basically the signature of water near the equator.
I think it could be from springs of very salty water.

If so, then of course we want to look at that.

Very salty water at a bit less than 1/2 mile down as the source seems plausible to me.  The ground temperatures should be a bit higher at that level, and the perchlorates may very well be able to maintain, the solution as a liquid.

If there were springs of that sort then I guess I would expect the possibility of large deposits of such salts as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-31 17:08:33)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#16 2019-03-31 19:19:53

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,972

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

Elderflower,

I did not see your last post previously.  It does make some good sense.  I don't think that by itself it explains all, but it is a very good contribution I think.  Thank you for presenting it.  I think the notion of the process is sound.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#17 2019-03-31 19:30:15

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,108

Re: Mars Had Big Rivers for Billions of Years

On earth we know in winter that a frost line forms as deep as 3 or more feet below the surface and while it stays cold it becomes hard all the way to the surface. So ground water would be below that and then some as the cold will penetrate. So as the depth of the water continues downward its going to get warmer and stay in liquid form even not so salty in nature. Being salty will mean that it can exist closer to the surface.
So is Mars warmer now or is it colder than in its past when it oceans froze....

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