Magnetic Motor

louis · 2019-03-19 18:00:18

This looks rather interesting - a magnetic motor...

Is it genuine? Anyone heard about it before? They do seem to be building quite substantial motors...

Presumably of no use on Mars. Or could it be used as a form of energy storage I'm wondering (if you magnetise using electricity from solar).

SpaceNut · 2019-03-19 18:44:25

This is part of the perpetual energy stuff, it would use and imbalance system to keep it in motion but having fixed location magnets means it is a static state and it will stop in time

louis · 2019-03-19 19:10:52

Well the firm say it's not perpetual motion and the magnets do deplete with time.

SpaceNut wrote:

This is part of the perpetual energy stuff, it would use and imbalance system to keep it in motion but having fixed location magnets means it is a static state and it will stop in time

kbd512 · 2019-03-19 19:16:01

Louis,

Anyone who can make a purely magnetic machine generate torque without quickly slowing to a halt will make more money than god. I've seen lots of claims over the years and many have tried to make this work, yet we still don't have a working prototype. However, what that Allied Signal exec said about the machine is correct. All you need to make power is torque and permanent magnets provide plenty of force to do that. Theoretically, there's nothing impossible about what they're doing. In actuality, nobody has figured out how to make a purely magnetically-driven machine spin until the magnets wear out.

Take note of the mass of the flywheel they're using. It's 4,500 to 6,500 pounds. Purportedly, that produces 30,000 pounds of force. It might be possible to store enough power to propel a ship at modest speed, but I seriously doubt something like this would power any other type of vehicle except by charging it. Their machine produces 6.3W per pound, assuming it actually works. If it does work every bit as well as they claim, then it could be a stationary power plant. A 158,730 pound flywheel would be required to generate 1MW. Perhaps several of these machines could charge several banks of batteries or super capacitors and then a ship could obtain motive power by drawing power by cycling between the storage cells as they're depleted.

louis · 2019-03-19 19:57:43

Interesting - so within the realm of the possible, but not yet plausible. We'll have to see if they sell and install to a credible buyer I guess. Otherwise, it's just claims.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Anyone who can make a purely magnetic machine generate torque without quickly slowing to a halt will make more money than god. I've seen lots of claims over the years and many have tried to make this work, yet we still don't have a working prototype. However, what that Allied Signal exec said about the machine is correct. All you need to make power is torque and permanent magnets provide plenty of force to do that. Theoretically, there's nothing impossible about what they're doing. In actuality, nobody has figured out how to make a purely magnetically-driven machine spin until the magnets wear out.
Take note of the mass of the flywheel they're using. It's 4,500 to 6,500 pounds. Purportedly, that produces 30,000 pounds of force. It might be possible to store enough power to propel a ship at modest speed, but I seriously doubt something like this would power any other type of vehicle except by charging it. Their machine produces 6.3W per pound, assuming it actually works. If it does work every bit as well as they claim, then it could be a stationary power plant. A 158,730 pound flywheel would be required to generate 1MW. Perhaps several of these machines could charge several banks of batteries or super capacitors and then a ship could obtain motive power by drawing power by cycling between the storage cells as they're depleted.

JoshNH4H · 2019-03-20 14:48:43

I have to say that the website reads a lot like a perpetual motion scam, and I'm having trouble understanding how their design could ever actually generate energy.

The real tipoff for me is this, on their about page:

IEC wrote:

Magnetic propulsion is the science of moving a mass (such as a flywheel, vehicle, elevator) in a rotary reciprocating, linear, or vertical direction solely by means of controlling permanent, imbalanced magnetic radiation (field).

What they're describing here is more-or-less a magnetic monopole, something which has never been observed. They certainly do not exist in Rare Earth Magnets.

All-in-all it seems to me that this is a scam built from stock photos and buzzwords--I'd advise to stay away!

kbd512 · 2019-03-20 20:13:40

Josh,

They're using a solenoid to operate a PM that keeps the flywheel spinning. It's a ridiculously expensive version of the V-gate experiment. So far as I know, nobody has made one of those work. Countless amateur inventors have tried over the years. You can make the flywheel that the V-gate magnets are embedded in spin at great speed, and with very little power- certainly far less than the flywheel stores, but the problem comes as soon as you try to harvest the kinetic energy in the flywheel. It takes energy to get the flywheel back up to speed. If these people make this concept work, then they'd be the first to ever do so. If it really was that simple, someone would've figured this out by now.

kbd512 · 2019-03-21 20:52:24

Louis,

Ok, I did some more digging to find out about what they're doing. Maybe there's something to this, but don't get overly excited yet.

New Discovery Could Lead to Commercial Production of Permanent Magnet Motors

Still, I would be very wary of such claims until a fully functional prototype has been publicly demonstrated AND replicated.

louis · 2019-03-22 04:21:38

Very interesting. This does sound at least plausible! I won't be investing...but will be watching.

It's notable they refer to this magnetic force/interaction of forces as a "fuel" that becomes depleted over time.

Just out of interest, where does this store of energy come from originally? Do magnetic materials become magnetised by virtue of the Earth, with an iron core, spinning and thus creating a magnetic field that then magnetises rocks/regolith?

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Ok, I did some more digging to find out about what they're doing. Maybe there's something to this, but don't get overly excited yet.
New Discovery Could Lead to Commercial Production of Permanent Magnet Motors
Still, I would be very wary of such claims until a fully functional prototype has been publicly demonstrated AND replicated.

tahanson43206 · 2019-03-22 04:32:18

For Louis #9 ... thanks for a very interesting question

For kdb512 #8 (and prior) ... thanks for researching this

I am intrigued by the topic, because I have wondered about the magnetic field for many years ....

Here is a discussion that tries to answer the energy question. I liked (in particular) the argument that aligning atoms into magnetic order must consume energy because moving from disorder to order ALWAYS requires energy. However, there is a judgement made that the amount of energy required is "small". In other words, while there is a qualitative judgement, there is NOT a quantitative measurement.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … -come-from

(th)

kbd512 · 2019-03-22 13:07:03

Louis,

There's nothing special about the materials used in permanent magnets like the now ubiquitous NdFeB (Neodymium Iron Boron) magnets, apart from the fact that Neodymium is a rare earth element and rather expensive as a result. Dependent on the desired strength of the magnet, different quantities of the three elements are powdered and mixed with each other, sintered, compacted using hydraulic presses to achieve greater density, baked in special ovens under vacuum to achieve final densification, magnetized using a very high power electrical coil from a surge of current provided by a bank of super capacitors, and then coated with a substance that prevents rapid oxidation, such as Nickel or Titanium Nitride or epoxy or rubber, as both Neodymium and Iron readily oxidize. During the fabrication process, measures are taken to limit exposure to Oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, to the extent practical. That is done using inert gases such as Argon (sintering and baking), vacuum wrapping and oil (compaction / densification using hydraulic pressure), and water (grinding operations to create the desired shape, to prevent metal fires as much as oxidation control since the dust generated is pyrophoric in nature). Take note of the fact that NdFeB magnets don't actually become permanent magnets until they're magnetized. Prior to exposure to the intense electrical field that magnetizes the material, it's just a mix of different elements.

The most common types of permanent magnets are Iron Oxide and Strontium Carbonate ceramics (speakers, common refrigerator magnets, DC motors, MRI machines, etc) - at least 2/3rd's or possibly more of the magnets used by industry, Aluminum Nickel Cobalt (highest Curie temperature and reasonably high coercivity), Samarium Cobalt (stronger than AlNiCo and reasonably high Curie temps), and Neodymium Iron Boron (strongest outside of the Iron Nitride permanent magnets ARPA-E is working on, but low Curie temps). If anyone comes up with a way to cheaply mass produce FeN magnets, NdFeB will quickly be replaced. Most rare earth element mines dig up tons of Thorium along with the rare earth elements. The Iron and Nitrogen in the FeN magnets are obviously dirt cheap and available everywhere- and we already have a functionally unlimited supply of Iron just laying around in scrap yards in the form of engine blocks.

There are also some types of speciality magnets that can withstand higher temperatures before becoming demagnetized. AlNiCo is used where maximum Curie temp is required. SmCo is commonly used in moderate temperature applications (Curie temp is the temp at which the magnet becomes demagnetized) that require high coercivity (resistance to becoming demagnetized / degaussed), for example. Careful control of motor / generator cooling has to be taken into consideration when the strongest grades of NdFeB magnets are used. The stronger the grade of NdFeB, the lower the Curie temp- N52's Curie temp is lower than N42, even though the N52 is a substantially stronger magnet, for example. No free lunches here. There are always tradeoffs to be made.

There's a company named "Polymagnets" that can literally write your name using alternating North and South poles as part of the magnetization process. They can put a North and South pole area on one side of the magnet right next to each other and can cause magnets to attract or repel at different distances from each other or different orientations. This technology is currently used to making locking latches that you twist and push or pull a specific distance to "lock" or "unlock". Could it be used to create a purely magnetic motor? Dunno. Maybe.

SpaceNut · 2019-03-22 18:52:52

Brings back memories of the late 70's when plastic magnets strips were still in developement by a business that was in the basement of a defunct company which I work for. His process was very much as you discribed even way back then.
The higher the field strength the more power when a coil is moved back and forth across it will make more power at the frequency of movement. This would be pulsed in one direction but if we place another magnetic for the coil to also cross but in the opposite polarity we get an ac voltage from the coil.

louis · 2019-03-31 14:12:35

An interesting video from IEC which sheds more light on how the motor is claimed to work...

https://e-catworld.com/2019/03/30/video … r-factory/

I'm getting a good feeling about this technology. Any other views?

SpaceNut · 2019-03-31 15:22:13

The e-catworld site is about transmutation or transformative conditions.

kbd512 · 2019-03-31 16:42:57

Louis,

You're getting a "good feeling" about this?

I'd settle for verified test results. I'd feel a lot better about seeing a little more of that.

I have noticed that whenever one of these new power generation schemes turns up, there are never any test results published.

Anyone who is the slightest bit skeptical should really begin to wonder why.

It'd be like a manufacturer claiming that their battery could store 1MWh/kg, yet never publishing a single independent test report verifying that the battery's rated capacity was anything similar to what the manufacturer claimed it was.

Would this be a revolutionary new technology if it works as well as the manufacturer claims?

Absolutely.

My advice to them would be to provide a product sample to a national laboratory to have the lab verify the inputs and outputs. If they did that and their device was proven to work as well as was claimed, then there'd be no shortage of customers from now until the end of time.

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#1 2019-03-19 18:00:18

Magnetic Motor

#2 2019-03-19 18:44:25

Re: Magnetic Motor

#3 2019-03-19 19:10:52

Re: Magnetic Motor

#4 2019-03-19 19:16:01

Re: Magnetic Motor

#5 2019-03-19 19:57:43

Re: Magnetic Motor

#6 2019-03-20 14:48:43

Re: Magnetic Motor

#7 2019-03-20 20:13:40

Re: Magnetic Motor

#8 2019-03-21 20:52:24

Re: Magnetic Motor

#9 2019-03-22 04:21:38

Re: Magnetic Motor

#10 2019-03-22 04:32:18

Re: Magnetic Motor

#11 2019-03-22 13:07:03

Re: Magnetic Motor

#12 2019-03-22 18:52:52

Re: Magnetic Motor

#13 2019-03-31 14:12:35

Re: Magnetic Motor

#14 2019-03-31 15:22:13

Re: Magnetic Motor

#15 2019-03-31 16:42:57

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