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#126 2018-10-03 19:37:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power generation on Mars

Thanks all of you.

I have found out that my copy and paste works from the image, to wordpad.  So the image script is in there.  However does not work if I do the [ img]???[ /img].  Will work on it some more.

I am able to paste my password if I to log on if I have it on Notepad.

……

Josh, yes there is more to read.  It looks like they think they may be able to improve the restored temperature significantly.

And molten salt storage has merit to compare to.  However Molten Salt storage would leak heat over time.  So this has the advantage of storing energy perhaps as long as 18 years.

The last line of the quote, indicates that they have hopes of increasing the restore temperature by 110 degC.  (I think).


So, if stored in a lake bottom @ 2 degC, could it be hoped that a temperature of 65 degC would result now?  And is their intention to get to:
65 + 110 degC = 175 degC,
or would they think they could get to 110 degC?
Not so sure.

Even so, I guess another factor would be what is the volume of the material to store the calories?  Relative to a molten salt bath.

Another factor is maintenance.  Common plastics I think will last a very long time at the bottom of a cold lake, not exposed to UV.  As I said before I am unknowing about the chemical reactions inside of the containers.  I am hoping chemically stable.

But to store energy during the day and generate power at night is good.
To have resilience in the face of a global dust storm, or some type of system failures would be very good.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-03 19:49:24)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#127 2018-10-03 21:39:44

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,513
Website

Re: Power generation on Mars

Void wrote:

I have found out that my copy and paste works from the image, to wordpad.  So the image script is in there.  However does not work if I do the [ img]???[ /img].  Will work on it some more.

I am able to paste my password if I to log on if I have it on Notepad.

If the image is on your computer you need to upload it to the internet first, then follow the procedure I mentioned.  I normally use imgur.com to do that.


-Josh

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#128 2018-10-04 20:27:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

The level of heat for salts will normally be with systems that concentrate the heat energy with reflectors that track the sun such as the Heliotowers of New Mexico.

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#129 2019-01-17 20:34:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

recent power and thermal heat discusions

https://www.humanpowerplant.be/2017/09/ … plant.html

exercise and save the power you create

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#130 2019-03-16 11:03:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

Thanks for the power information:

kbd512 wrote:

In any event, USGS has a neat little tool you can use to view quite a bit of data about our wind turbines (note: down now due to maintenance, apparently):

Mapping the Nation's Wind Turbines

Since you like wind turbines so much, here's a link to a little Canadian company that may be of interest to you:

WhalePower Corporation

Maybe they can provide sufficient torque at low wind speeds to negate the requirement for a gearbox for onshore wind turbines so we can use Magnax's axial flux generators to decrease the weight at the top of the tower.

Like so:

Magnax axial flux electric generator - wind turbine animation

I believe it incorporates the same type of load control feature as Haliade.

These style of of power creation is independant of the sping cycle as its collection of what is called wild power in which there are converters and inverters used to link what is save in the initial step as a DC voltage on Super caps or batteries and then converted to a steady state voltage. The in coming cycle, voltages are over a wide varied levels so the first stage is a wide inout voltage converter. which charges the next stage to a fixed level for use.

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#131 2019-03-16 14:07:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

Its a motor no its a generator and depending on what why its wired its can be both.

Shrinking the mass of the motor

MagnaxAF_Promo.jpg?itok=2m5AHvZS

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2795152/ … 20v1.9.pdf

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#132 2019-03-16 14:28:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

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#133 2019-03-17 08:28:29

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 210

Re: Power generation on Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

recent power and thermal heat discusions
https://www.humanpowerplant.be/2017/09/ … plant.html
exercise and save the power you create

This makes sense at a gym location near the greenhouses of a human settlement on Mars. The energy saved from power by humans exercising over time and waste heat from electricity and vehicle fuel generation and consumption as infrared radiation is stored and released as ultraviolet radiation by LED.

See another thread for photon upconversion:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8916

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#134 2019-03-17 08:37:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

Human execise is a part of combating Mars low gravity for man so why not make that apart of our energy sources, sure its less than others but every little bit save mass and gives a reserve for other activity as well as growth. Thanks for reading my posts knightdepaix to which we are also looking at the idea for backup in recumbent/ light mass rovers as well. The image of the motor in posts between this one and the quoted are also possible to be configured as a generator.

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#135 2019-03-30 09:41:49

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: Power generation on Mars

For kbd512 ...

A Facebook post from an acquaintance contained this text:

Just know that the U.S. Senate introduced the Nuclear Energy Leadership Act this week to advance nuclear reactor technologies and I AM SO HERE FOR IT.

I too am in favor of getting off the dime with nuclear fission, so hope that other forum contributors can add to this hint.

(th)

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#136 2019-03-30 14:04:24

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,985

Re: Power generation on Mars

tahanson43206,

Well, it's about time.  If people are serious about divesting ourselves of the wholesale use of fossil fuels to combat climate change, then we need even more energy dense alternatives to fossil fuels to be implemented on an unprecedented scale.

Plan A - Business as usual, burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels, until we eventually run out, because the environmentalists simply will not admit that solar and wind technologies still don't work well enough at the global scale required.  When you're stuck in a hole, the first order of business should be to admit that there's a problem and stop digging.

Plan B - Start a serious effort to build the fuel cell and nuclear reactor infrastructure required to transition to a Hydrogen economy while we work on perfecting and industrializing marvelous new futuristic technologies like quantum computing, CNT's, Graphene, fusion, anti-matter, purely magnetic generators, batteries or super capacitors that match the energy density of chemical fuels, and a new "theory of everything" that closely follows observational evidence.

Plan C - After Plan B is well under way, start looking at ways to use our new technologies to sustain development into perpetuity.  Part of that plan means utilizing the much greater resources of our local solar system and moving portions of our population to other planets to assure the survival of our species.  Space exploration and colonization will clearly play a major role in that endeavor, but we're at least several decades away from that goal.

Plan D - As our technological capabilities approach some of the more mundane technologies seen in Star Trek and Star Wars, we need to construct true starships that future generations will use to explore our galaxy, and eventually, other galaxies.

We're currently stuck on "Plan A" because too many people are completely fixated on leaping past what we can realistically achieve with technology we have and know how to use.  Energy is the key to every endeavor we wish to undertake.  We wouldn't have made it as far as we have without massive quantities of it.  If we want to go farther and faster, then we need a lot more of it, and in a form that won't eventually kill us all.  To me, nuclear power is just a viable means to that end.  It's a stepping stone to something better, albeit one that we desperately need.

Control over the atom is equivalent to unlimited power.  Unlimited power is always a double-edged sword.  There's always a price to be paid for exercising that power.  The exceptionally keen edge of that blade is merciless untoward those who do not show adequate respect for what they've been given.  Even so, I believe we should take what's being offered, complain less about the power that science has granted to us, and endeavor to be as responsible as we should be with that kind of power.  We should also recognize that our little atomic firecrackers are insignificant compared to the power of a star or an asteroid the size of a small city moving through space as fast as we are.

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#137 2019-03-31 10:57:37

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: Power generation on Mars

Several nuclear technologies were developed, but nuclear activists convinced Congress not to proceed. One is reprocessing. When nuclear fuel rods get contaminated with too much fission fragments, that's nuclear waste after atoms are split, with too much they "poison" the nuclear reaction so that fuel rod does not produce useful heat. When that happens that rod is removed, treated as waste. But there's still significant quantity of unused fuel, so reprocessing separates unused fuel from waste. The fuel can be formed into fresh fuel rods, the waste is separated for disposal. This is more efficient because you make use of all uranium mined and enriched, instead of throwing a significant portion in a waste dump. And this reduces quantity of nuclear waste.

Another technology uses trans-uranics  as fuel. Some of the moderated neutrons don't split uranium atoms, instead are absorbed by uranium causing it to be transmuted into something else. This converts uranium into various elements close to uranium on the periodic table. Most people are familiar with the breeder cycle: convert U-238 to Pu-239. Plutonium-239 is easier to split than Uranium-235 and releases more energy. U-238 does not split, but when it absorbs a neutron it becomes U-239. That decays (short half-life but my web periodic table no longer says how long) releasing a gamma photon and a beta particle (high energy electron) to become Neptunium-239. That beta decays with a half-life of 2.355 days to Plutonium-239. In nature 99.2745% of uranium by weight is U-238, only 0.7200% is U-235 and 0.0055% is U-234. U-234 will not split either, but when it absorbs a neutron it becomes U-235. Fuel for reactors in the US is enriched to 2% U-235, but that means 98% is still U-238. So one obvious design feature is to ensure plutonium can be used as fuel. But U-235 doesn't always split, sometimes it becomes U-236. That beta decays with a half-life of 23.4 million years to Thorium-232. That's the natural isotope of thorium, but millions of years? U-236 can absorb a neutron to become U-237, which beta decays is 6.75 days to Neptunium-237, which alpha decays in 2.14 million years to Protactinium-233. Again, millions of years. Neptunium-237 can absorb a neutron to become Neptunium-238, which beta decays in 2.117 days to Plutonium-238. Etc. I think you get the idea. The process produces a lot of elements close to Uranium. A fast neutron reactor can use all of them as fuel. Treating trans-uranics as fuel eliminates more waste.

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#138 2019-03-31 15:58:47

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,138

Re: Power generation on Mars

Also you can run a suitable reactor on Thorium with a little bit of more active elements for initiators. There is an awful lot more Thorium than uranium.

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#139 2019-03-31 17:57:02

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,985

Re: Power generation on Mars

We have so much U238 sitting around and collecting dust in Paducah, that we may as well burn some of that in a traveling wave reactor.  The Thorium is good stuff, too, and we also have container ship loads of that stuff buried out west, should we ever decide to dig it up and burn it.

If we don't do that, then eventually those scary terrorists will get the bright idea that they can steal some of it.  I feel a lot better about all of our nuclear materials sitting inside nuclear reactors and generating electricity for us than in storage containers in the middle of BFE.

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#140 2019-03-31 19:32:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

I guess the question for mars is will we need the concrete design to contain the nuclear reactor as we see in earth builds?

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#141 2019-09-24 21:34:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

A review on solar-hydrogen/fuel cell hybrid energy systems for stationary applications
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 8508000439

Minimum and maximum overall energy and exergy efficiencies of the system are calculated based on these paths. It is found that the overall energy efficiency values of the system vary between 0.88% and 9.7%, while minimum and maximum overall exergy efficiency values of the system are between 0.77% and 9.3% as a result of selecting various energy paths

Solar to a storable is at a loss thats not going to make up for the diffence to create.

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#142 2019-09-25 18:42:45

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: Power generation on Mars

Here is a Record solar hydrogen production with concentrated sunlight
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 111853.htm

Demonstration project of the solar hydrogen energy system located on Taleghan-Iran: Technical-economic assessments
http://www.ep.liu.se/ecp/057/vol4/004/ecp57vol4_004.pdf

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