New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#1 2019-01-22 21:16:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

"Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

As it happens I am now the one who is sick and mostly stranded at home, so this is what you get.

We could start with Isacc Arthur, a video on the topic.  I don't necessarily agree with everything he presents.
For instance as I see it Radon may not be a problem underground on Mars, because the linings of tunnels and caves made to hold a higher pressure into the caves and tunnels (Except hyperloops), Radon may be kept at bay.

Corrected this link at 10:07 PM central time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBPMIUPz6-k

The Boring Company:
https://www.boringcompany.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boring_Company
https://www.inverse.com/article/52614-t … e-collider
Quote:

The Boring Company could save “several billion euros” on the construction of a giant particle collider, founder Elon Musk claimed on Monday.

So Elon Musk is projecting confidence to be able to vastly reduce the cost of tunneling.  Isaac Arthur suggests that this is likely to happen in the future.

And in my opinion stated previously elsewhere.  The occupants of Mars will want to control the two primary condensation points on Mars.  The polar ice caps. 

The current thinking I have on this is to start at some icy location in the mid latitudes, and create a trench reservoir which leads to a primary condensation point.  This an ice covered canal/reservoir.

Where convenient it might also be possible to then transport water towards the equator.  Either by continuation of canal, or more likely by water conveying tunnels underground that will fill relatively small reservoirs.  Solar power likely the big deal.  Various kinds.

While I am not opposed to glass/or glazed greenhouses. my biggest fantasy at this time is cone shaped sort of surface devices made of boring tailing bricks, and perhaps mounded over deeply by more tailings.  That mound projecting above the ice in the canals I mentioned.
The cone enclosures linked by utilities to the water surrounding the artificial island.  Also a boring tube connecting the cone enclosure to the undergrounds.  Upon the island solar collection devices sufficient to collect photons deflected from a collection of heliostats.

Issac Arthur expresses misgivings about overheating in the undergrounds.  I feel that the reservoir canal will be a very good radiator, even to some extent a evaporative radiator if we like.  To do that then the water that evaporates from the ice must be replenished to the canal from one or both of the primary condensation points on the planet.  One method is to shoot a laser into the ice cap from a lower point to melt water from the cap.  That should flow down the created tube, as the angle from the laser projector will be at an angle upward.  Here we avoid Caving such as happens when glaciers fall into sea.  We don't want such water displacements projected into the canal.  Of course the laser can be moved in it's pointing.  An ice cave may result, and it should be possible to examine it scientifically, to examine the layers.

So, because of the cooling potential of the canal reservoir, I feel it will be very possible to have artificial lighted gardens both in the cone enclosures nearer the surface, and into the deeps below.

His thinking on air pressure is interesting.  How deep could tunnels go below the floor of Hellas?  2 Miles?  Is that going to be a big problem?  Sorry Metric people if you like, do the conversions.  So, 5,280 x 2 = 10,560 feet.  That is a significant pressurization.  What about 10 miles?  The gravity is ~.38, so 10 miles is equivalent to 3.8 miles in pressure of rock on Earth, so maybe not impossible as far as rock pressure.

Then if you do manage to raise the surface pressure from an average of 5.5 mb to 16.5 mb, then I am just going to guess ~40 mb on the floor of Hellas and so then that much more air pressure if you bore down 5 mile or 10 miles.

That is I guess it is frivolous to suppose you would not use physical differential pressure barriers, but in the deeps even if you had a catastrophic rupture of the system, perhaps the outcome would not be lethal, not in the deeps.

And I guess the Insight Lander will be letting us know what sort of temperatures we might hope to find 5 miles down or 10 miles down.

And further doing things this way, what are the odds that useful mineral deposits will be encountered while tunneling.  I think it would happen.

The Boring Company just drilled a tunnel about 1 mile long.  Is it that hard to think of drilling one down 2 miles?  5 miles?  10 miles?  I am guessing you would do it at an angle.

Hmm... What if the boring company could in fact access geothermal power as well?  Hot Rocks.  Maybe on Mars due to the low gravity.

This is interesting, of course there process resembles fracking for oil and natural gas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_r … surization
Quote:

Feasibility studies[edit]
The feasibility of mining heat from the deep earth was proven in two separate HDR reservoir flow demonstrations—each involving about one year of circulation—conducted by the Los Alamos National Laboratory between 1978 and 1995. These groundbreaking tests took place at the Laboratory’s Fenton Hill HDR test site in the Jemez Mountains of north-central New Mexico, at depths of over 8000 ft and rock temperatures in excess of 180 °C.[5] The results of these tests demonstrated conclusively the viability of the revolutionary new HDR geothermal energy concept. The two separate reservoirs created at Fenton Hill are still the only truly confined HDR geothermal energy reservoirs flow-tested anywhere in the world.

A compromise would be to tunnel part way down per Boring Company method, then create a cavern, then frack downwards from the cavern.  If their test wells were about 8000 feet deep, then for Mars, we could suppose to do at least (The following is corrected) 8000 / ~.38 = 21,052 below the cavern (Maybe).

Food for thought.

Mars is not Earth.  In some ways it might be better.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-23 13:35:15)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#2 2019-01-24 15:06:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

So, I think I have an underground geometric shape for a cave, that would be suitable to keeping things the way desired.

The boring company can make tunnels at this time.

The carved cave I am thinking of could be visualized by starting with a cone shaped cave.  Then put an Aztec step pyramid inside of it.  Leave enough room so that a tall person can stand up strait on any of the steps.  But now change it to a cone shaped step pyramid.  Also make the steps into a continuous spiral, from the apex of the cone to the bottom of the cone.

Now instead of visualizing carving the whole cone, and then building a cone pyramid with a spiral step, just carve the "VOID" smile space, which will leave a cone ceiling with a rock cone pyramid with a spiraled continuous ramp/step-way.

I am thinking that this would be cooled by evaporation.  You would drip water at the apex as necessary, and let it spiral down the spiral steps.  I suppose a slip and fall might be of a concern, so that has to be considered as something to fix against.

The pooling of water at the bottom of the cone could tell your process control that you have too little/enough/too much water.  (Toilet methods (Water Closet) might do).

And then I would think that cool dry air would be introduced near the base of the cone.

The air to flow upward towards a venting at the apex of the cone.

The radiator condenser would be associated with a ice covered reservoir of water, the radiation of heat from the ice being through dirt covering it or even possibly through a contribution from sublimation from exposed ice.  (In that case you must have a adequate source of makeup water to keep the reservoir filled with water and ice as would be desired.  In the beginning the make up water could come from adjacent ice slabs, and when the Martian system is fully built it might ultimately come from the polar condensation points, or also perhaps from alpine sources at lower latitudes, presuming that Mars has also been sufficiently terraformed.

So, if you have such caves that can be evaporatively cooled in this manner, then you could put artificial lights into them to stimulate photo vetitive growth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-24 15:18:36)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#3 2019-01-24 18:32:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,347

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I see the oh wait a minute...
Hawthorne+Test+Tunnel

Some other activity for the machine
https://www.boringcompany.com/products/

Still not finding much detail on the size, mass and what it runs on yet but I am sure it will turn up...

Offline

#4 2019-01-24 19:18:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I have a bit here:
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-the … e-chicago/
Quote:

During the Boring Company’s information session earlier this year, Elon Musk described the design of the startup’s tunnel boring machines. According to Musk, Godot, the company’s first TBM, is a conventional tunneling machine. Line-Storm, which was announced by Musk on Twitter last October, would be a hybrid, with parts from conventional boring machines and custom hardware designed by the company. Thanks to its hybrid nature, Line-Storm would be 2x faster than Godot. Proof-Rock, a third-generation TBM, will be developed entirely by the Boring Company, and it would be 10-15x faster than conventional TBMs.
It remains to be seen if the machine seemingly being assembled at the Hawthorne site is Line-Storm or Proof-Rock. That said, the Boring Company’s TBM for Chicago would most likely feature the startup’s most advanced tunneling tech yet. During the information session, Musk stated that the company’s boring machines, thanks to their electric nature (or partially-partially electric in the case of Line-Storm), the Boring Co’s machines are around 3x more powerful than conventional TBMs. The TBMs will be powered by Tesla batteries as well, eliminating the need for cabling in the actual tunneling site.

The only warrantee that comes with this is the fact that Falcon 9 can indeed do a hover slam and fly again.  In spite of all the swirling around Elon Musk, SpaceX shows that he knows how to work with people to get fantastic things done.  He demands a lot and does not get it all, but gets plenty.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-24 19:31:49)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#5 2019-01-24 19:33:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

If they do pull it off, then the tunneling methods or similar should be ideal for Mars.

I confess, trying to make a pathway with ice covered waterways, is a bit out there.

But if you have reservoirs linked by underground tunnels for travel and to move various fluids, and can link water sources to water needs, and of course energy sources, I think you have the backbone of a civilization of some potential.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#6 2019-02-04 22:15:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I have been thinking about the so called "Aztec Cone Cave" of post #2.

Have revised my thinking.

I think now that a tunnel in the form of a spiral cork screw.  Perhaps each loop a little further out.  That way, no tunnel over the other, that way not much need for supports.

But it should be possible to cut shortcuts between loops.  Probably those will have doors. A purpose is to make a shunt path if you cannot get through the helix for some reason.

And then I should imagine a double helix perhaps.  One helix outside the other.  Then you could flow air down one and up the other, or have a vertical feeder shaft to feed dry cool air to the bottoms of the helixes.

The things this might accomplish is storage of heat from the sunny days, a place for biology to occur, chemosynthesis, and perhaps artificial lights used to green it up. 

The tubes naturally a storage for breathable atmosphere (It is hoped).

Access to the deeps of Mars.

I am not yet convinced that geothermal energy will not be accessible by a combination of these helical tunnels, and fracking from the bottom of the Helix's.

I also think that with all the other attributes, mining is also a possibility.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#7 2019-02-05 17:22:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,347

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

Is the shape of the spiral small diameter at the top and widening as you bore downward into Mars?

I am still in search of the boring machines numbers for Mass, diameter, height and energy requirements to make the intent possible.
Th dug materials would be made use of later.

Offline

#8 2019-02-05 21:19:00

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I would think that if you did boring it would be the width of the tunnel.

But I suppose at intervals caverns could be created.

This is apparently twitter for the boring company.
https://twitter.com/boringcompany

Godot is the first boring machine they have.  It is actually a sewer boring device.  I think that they have converted it to battery electric instead of internal combustion.  Which will make sense on Mars.  I think they upped the power by x3 but please don't take me to the inquisition on that.

Something on Godot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cSBsnQN-5w

One of the desired innovations is to install tunnel liners as the tunnel is drilled in a continuous fashion.  Current technology requires a stop of the machine to do that.  I am not sure what other secret notions they have.  However their quotes for some of the jobs they want to do are already ridiculously low I think.  Err.... Maybe that's "Line-storm".

Here is a wiki on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borin … g_machines
I think they are going to have two more, each with more and more innovation from the technicians at the Boring company.
Quote:

Boring machines[edit]
The first three boring machines used by The Boring Company are:[35]:51:15–54:30
Godot,[14] a conventional tunnel boring machine, used for research purposes.
Line-storm, a highly modified conventional boring machine, a hybrid design, boring 2–3 times faster than pre-2018 boring machines.
Prufrock,[32] or Proof-Rock,[36] a "fully-Boring-Company-designed machine",[35]:52:03[32] anticipated to be approximately ten times faster than conventional boring machines, with hopes of making it even faster. Currently under development since May 2018.[35][36]

That's not solid specs, but it is interesting speculation.

……

It may be that indeed at least some crustal rocks on Mars are generally more porous due to the ~.38 g field.  That may bode well for using tunneling on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-02-05 21:34:21)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#9 2019-03-12 09:38:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I found this last night.  Not too far off from some of what I previously suggested for "Cone" structures, but much better, much better.

MARSHA:
Teslarati 3D-Printed Mars Habitat could be a perfect for early spaxeX starship colonies, MARSHA
I do https://www.teslarati.com/3d-printed-ma … -colonies/

I do have concerns.  There is a catch 22.  If you land Starship on a deep ice slab because you want to mine water, then do you place this on top of the ice?  I would be nervous about that.  Or, do you carve/mine a hole in the ice and put this thing of rock foundations?  Of course for that you not only have to remove the ice, but even then you might be perching the thing on frozen icy permafrost.

That sort of thing has been a concern for me for a while.  You want a large ice body, but you want good foundations.  So, I am inclined to think that you want to picture this ice slab as being a frozen body of water, and might like to find an "Island" of rock of substantial proportions, and yet to be able to access deep ice near by easily.


So, we would be looking for special real estate.

We could settle for shallow ice, but I guess that has to be located.

I do like there ideas.

……

In my use of it however, I might indeed dig holes in the ice and submerge these thing to a rocky surface, if possible.  However the tops pointing up and out of the ice.  Then you have two choices.  In order to not melt the ice around the buildings, you may have to cool the air between the two sets of walls.  Or you might just let the ice melt, and suck it up, and then either have a pocket of water under the ice, or simply have little craters in the ice where these building sit.

I did think that the boring company methods could be used to bore through rocks, but now I am thinking why not just bore through the ice at the "Grounding Line", and build horizontal tunnels from building to building in a network. 

If you have sunken building, surrounded by ice, or a crater in the ice, then you would want diagonal tunnels or roads up the crater walls to get to the top of the ice slab.  If you do have craters in the ice, then dust from dust storms will tend to gradually fill the craters, so maybe that is the answer, you might even take overburden from areas you are mining, and fill in around the buildings with berms heaped up.  Perhaps dry dirt.  That could be ideal, if you had good rock foundation, then you would not have to be concerned about melting ice or rocky/icy permafrost.

But for the garage you either move it up a level(s), or have tunnels through the berm that permit access to the surface of the ice slab.

I will make a note and say this tech looks like it could be usable for synthetic gravity machines in orbit.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#10 Yesterday 09:31:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I was pleased to encounter www.hypersciences.com today.

https://www.hypersciences.com/
Near the bottom of the page are several interesting articles.

I won't do direct quotes at this time.  In some cases, they intend to use concrete projectiles, which interests me for Mars perhaps.

So, I speculate that ingredients for concrete on Mars could be had from salts, perhaps Calcium salts?  So, then you could have concrete projectiles for drilling.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/ … JejZPZFzIU

Obviously, if they do manage to make geothermal energy so cost effective that nuclear energy becomes obsolete, that would be a giant factor for Earth civilization.  I think it is less useful to think of abandoning planet Earth to go to Mars, than to think about economic enhancement of Earth as a sort of platform being enriched, so that we can then be strong enough to also move to other planemo's.
(Planemo, I picked that up from Karov).

One thing that should result from drilling for geothermal energy on Earth and other objects such as Mars, would be stumbling onto valuable minerals along the way, and also the information on the structure of Earth and Mars down deep.

And of course the technology if it does work, would provide a source of volume for habitation and industrial processes.  Relatively safe from surface issues which could be adverse to humans.

How warm is Mars?  Well standard thinking is that it is a Mini-Earth, and so has greatly cooled down relative to the Earth over ~4.5 billion years.  We can hope that information from Insight, and other probes will give a more proper measurement of reality as to the geothermal potentials of Mars.   Personally, I think the history of Mars is so different from Earth we may discover that it has some special tricks we are not familiar with.

One thing is sure to me, ~.38 gravitation, suggests that you can go deeper, and also that the rocks may be more porous, and so easier to penetrate.

A suspicion of mine is that Mars does not have tectonics like Earth, possibly because the crust is thicker and lighter.  It may be that it cannot dive down into the planet like the crust does here.  If that were so, we may just find, (Or not), that Mars is better insulated from heat loss in that respect.  Heavy magma may have a hard time getting to the surface as well. 

And I will again as I have in the past, suggest that the space environment may project heat into the Martian deeps.  Here I suggest magnetic flux of the solar wind, inducing heat into the deeps of Mars.  Mars only has fragmented fossil magnetic fields, and the solar wind does not blow steady, it is blustery I believe.  So, this might induce heat into the deeps of Mars, or at least project heat into certain locations of lower crust.  Similarly, I also speculate on electrical flows heating the deeps of Mars.  We certainly have the example of dust devils being electrical and having magnetic fields also. If you do have wet plumbing in the crust of Mars, that is salty wet materials at a cold temperature perhaps, dust storm activity may project electrical flows through it, and those flows encountering resistance will then project thermal power into the liquids and the regolith they dwell in.

Another possibility, can be the electrical nature of the upper atmosphere of Mars.  I will suppose that different parts can have different electrical charges, and I do believe that the CO2 dominated atmosphere of Mars could be more conductive to electricity flows than Earths atmosphere.  So, perhaps high current flows may occur, but at lower voltages than for Earth.

But I just wanted to list some possibilities which will either be disproved, or proved.  I like thinking of the idea that for some planets, electrical currents might cause volcanism to exist.  I have read an article that indicates that some planets around red dwarf stars, may have magma oceans under their crust due to the solar wind.  However, the effect from a red dwarf star could be perhaps ~1000 times as powerful as that of our sun "Sol".

But leaving speculation behind, and then for now settling only for the notion that radioactive decay is the source of geothermal heat on Mars, and then returning to the Hypersciences, process, I still then will say what a possibility could be for it.

Here, again baby steps I guess.  You might start with the thick ice slabs, and glacial deposits, use the heat from below to warm them to liquid water covered with ice, or indeed manufactured materials.  Might as well harvest some solar energy into them as well, but with giant reservoirs, and geothermal power, then you will be much better situated to deal with the harshness of Mars, such as global dust storms, and toxic chemistry on the surface.

And you should be able to dig horizontal conduits, which in some cases would include water flows for useful purposes.  Canals on Mars after all.  But down deep.  While dry vehicle transport is a possibility, also literally tubes partially filled with water, where by means most useful living things could be farmed.  Water craft in those tunnels even to transport materials with energy efficiency.  The tubes to redistribute water, and also possibly heat.

We next have the polar ice caps, for when the technology would get even more vigorous, and have greater lifting power so to speak.

I can see those liquified into seas, while tapping both geothermal and solar energy.  While hot water could be flowed into the polar caps both from geothermal and solar, another way is to simply melt the ice caps with Hydrogen and Carbon Dioxide.  Provide those into the waters, and microbes can then consume it creating biomass, and heat, somewhat like a wet haystack can get hot from microbial actions.

Obviously then some horizontal tubes could carry Hydrogen, and I think if they were relatively deep, that unlike surface pipelines the losses of Hydrogen would be relatively low.

And obviously if you melt the ice caps then you release the frozen Carbon Dioxide to your biological processes, possibly creating a huge amount of Methane to release to the atmosphere, or releasing the CO2 directly to atmosphere.  Therefore a terraform process would be facilitated.


……


Of course this may distress Elon Musk's Boring Company, but it might delight SpaceX, as they are the most likely company to deliver this drilling process to Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 10:21:33)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#11 Yesterday 11:38:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

Some afterthoughts already.

It occurs to me that the cement in the concrete might be recoverable to manufacture more projectiles.

I am also thinking that the tailings if they are not yet oxidized fully (Rusted), can in part be put into the large reservoir bottoms.  As water is consumed for various purposes, the volume of the reservoir could be kept more constant by fill it in with these tailings.  Probably desirable.
And I arrive at the notion that if the tailings are not yet rusted, then this can provide Hydrogen to the waters, while consuming some of the water.  It is even conceivable that another output ultimately will be salts, and clays.  I am not sure about the clays.

If the reservoir environment could be kept suitable for shellfish, then they could manufacture a possible source of cements for the drilling and other processes.  Shellfish may be fussy.  Perhaps parts of the reservoir would be maintained suitable for them.  Hydrogen added into the waters along with a bit of CO2, with plenty of Oxygen would be required.  This should result in a plankton of microbes, and the shellfish are often filter feeders, or feeders on detritus.  So, it might work out.

And I will mention again that the reservoirs would be treated in part as radiators.  Waste heat could be dumped into them, and also the activities of living organisms feeding on such a food chain will also heat the reservoir.  I myself would be happy to see tunnels linked to these reservoirs, and large horizontal or big volume hollows under the reservoir floor, hopefully geothermal power also being available from all of this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:42:57)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#12 Yesterday 13:46:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,347

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

This is one we have seen thus far in sulfur bearing materials for Martial Concrete

Not the first time we are discusion materials to make mars home. How to Build a House on Mars, The first step is figuring out how to make Martian concrete.

A number of insitu materials are possible with  3-D-printed ice house and many more. This power source must be adequate to operate a kiln as well as produce water by either manufacture or by permafrost extraction. Basic materials for the manufacturing of concrete in situ exist on Mars' surface.

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/10.1061/40479%28204%29111

The Viking and Pathfinder missions have provided data that indicate the presence of calcium sulfur and salts as well as large quantities of pozzolanic reactive silica. Forms of Martian concrete materials could be rudimentary brick, nonhydraulic or hydraulic cement concretes

Additive ingredience might be still needed if not found on mars.

3D Printing Habitats on Mars

The feedstock for Martian concrete is gypsum sand available on the Martian surface. Thermal dehydration converts the gypsum to plaster and water, two of the three ingredients necessary for concrete.

3D-Printing-Habitats-on-Mars_hero.jpg.aspx?width=460

Lava casting:
3D-Printing-Habitats-on-Mars_02.jpg.aspx?width=340

enclosed cone shape inner walls
3D-Printing-Habitats-on-Mars_03.jpg.aspx?width=340

Offline

#13 Yesterday 16:23:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,767

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

Well thanks then.  Concrete will be a can do thing, therefore concrete projectiles to drill at fast speed, may also work out.

The materials of your post are welcome suggested precursors to the sort of thing I want to imagine.  Something of that order will be necessary.

I have noticed that SpaceX will modify plans when it makes sense.  I think I will do an sanity/insanity check on the notion of mining water as dirty chunks of ice.

That plan requires heavy equipment to be delivered on the faith that it is properly adapted for the necessary tasks.  It is a very good try, but I am going to wonder about a regression to previous notions.  I believe that Dr. Zubrin originally suggested that a ship which is going to do insitu production of propellants should bring Hydrogen with it.   I at least want to review that notion, and also presume that somehow Kilopower can be associated with the process.  I am not doing a very good job of precision at this point.  I also apprehend what some of the problems could be.

Still in my mind, I would like a "Starship" robot that would land, deploy reactors, and begin making propellants.  Long before humans even depart for Mars.  I can't assure you that it could be done, but that would be a thing to look at I think, at least a review of a counter-option method.

Somewhere in this if possible, one or more of the ships could also bring proto-type water extraction equipment, so that it could be tested.

I suppose some of the problems in this are that KiloPower may not be fully ready yet, and a question exists, "How do you adapt it to a Starship.   However, there are some pluses.  You have assurance that propellants at least exist on Mars before you leave for Mars.  You also have electric power from the reactors.  A problem does exist however, radiation from the reactors, and how to deploy the reactors by automation.  Perhaps out of the bottom ring cargo bay?  These things would need solving.  However although Murphy's law can strike, even so, if you have reactors on the surface of Mars, and propellant being made while you travel, then that says something.  Especially if there were a global dust storm, or some calamity in the travel plan.

Also if mining equipment is prototype/testing only, then that load is diminished, and the necessary amount of human EVA in space suits is reduced I would think.

I think that a lot of testing and adaptation are needed before deciding firmly on best practices

……

As a possible example, I propose a notion.  The question about it is for Mars at various developmental periods, should electrical equipment be emphasized, or can we go more mechanical?  This then is a real proposal, but it is suggestive that there are many questions we do not have proper answers to yet as to best methods.

I often of course what to work with liquid water.  I see many values for it.  However it often will not go well with electrical circuits.  So, I am thinking mechanical drive shaft to get what I want.

Rather than using explosives and heavy equipment, I suggest that indeed you might use solar cells for electricity or Kilopower if it makes sense.   You would deploy either or both to the surface of an ice body.  And by necessary means melt the ice below the dirt, leaving an ice layer on top.  A possible necessary other action would be to reduce the overburden dirt at that site.  That will indeed involve heavy equipment at that stage.  The overburden can be heaped up at certain locations, as deep pads that surface structure can be built upon or even into.  A thick amount of dirt, to isolate warm buildings from cold icy permafrost.

So, I start with notions about electrical equipment in association with liquid water, and also the probability that Copper and Aluminum may be very precious.  I do make a leap of faith however in presuming that drive shafts can be efficiently manufactured for a power transfer method.  That is not proven.  Perhaps we could invoke some 3D printing scheme, but then we also need the metal for the drive shaft.  It will certainly require solving in reality.

Anyway, I will now get more to the point.
1) Surface structure: Dominated by solar panels, perhaps.  Making "Sheds" over the ice.  Perhaps even enclosing the walls of the Sheds somehow with some material.  This over an icy body with a remnant layer of dirt over it.  This could reduce evaporation of the ice layer that it is desired to retain as frozen.  The shade of the sheds would very likely assure that that layer of ice would be even colder than before the solar panels were deployed.

2) A motors in these sheds.  Reducing the amount of Copper and/or Aluminum required.  So the solar cells can spin a motor which will spin a shaft.  The shaft can penetrate the ice, but bearings and bushings will be required.  That assembly I presume set in the ice, and not to become so hot as to vaporize or melt the ice.  That will possibly be a hard requirement.

3) So, now you have a spinning drive shaft penetrating from the sheds into the ice.  You then have a source of power under the ice, not directly involving electrical processes.

4) You should now want a generator on the bottom end of that shaft, and a air filled enclosure to surround the generator.   Now your generator can power underwater lights.  If the air filled chamber is a diving bell, then you have possibilities for aquiculture.  Still you may also have vascular land plants involved as well.  Any waste heat will typically be captured into the waters of the reservoir.  Of course where the shaft passes into the air filled enclosure again, bearings, and bushings.  Easy to say.

So unless the sky rains copper or aluminum, the perhaps MG sets are mandated as I have suggested in steps 1-4.

And like greenhouses, I think these things should be tried, but we have not yet tested any of these ideas in the real Martian environment.
I think there is a whole lot to learn about reality on Mars.  I would not tend to be too sure our plans are yet the best.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 17:04:06)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB