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#1 2019-02-01 22:45:04

EdwardHeisler
Member
Registered: 2017-09-20
Posts: 357

Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

In a blog post, the colorful billionaire founder of Tesla promised the company "will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology."
Agence France-Presse | Updated: February 01, 2019 07:16 IST

San Francisco, United States: Elon Musk announced Thursday he had released all of the electric carmaker Tesla's patents, as part of an effort to fight climate change.

In a blog post, the colorful billionaire founder of Tesla promised the company "will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology."

It was a remarkable move in an industry where the smallest idea or seed of invention is carefully guarded to protect its monetary value.

And it in fact came on the same day US prosecutors charged a Chinese national with stealing secrets from Apple's self-driving vehicle project.

"Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport," Musk said. "If we clear a path to the creation of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal."

In fact Musk said he was now skeptical of patents which too often only served "to stifle progress" and helped enrich giant corporations and lawyers rather than inventors.

He said he had earlier felt compelled to file patents for Tesla to prevent big car companies from copying the technology and using the huge marketing and sales apparatus to take over the market.

"We couldn't have been more wrong. The unfortunate reality is the opposite," he said, noting that electric or clean-fuel cars "at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent."

But with car production continuing at 100 million a year "it is impossible for Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis," Musk said.

Have other companies making electric cars and the world would benefit from rapid advances in technology.

"We believe that applying the open-source philosophy to our patents will strengthen rather than diminish Tesla's position," and ability to attract talented engineers, he said.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/elon-mu … th-1986450

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#2 2019-02-02 17:22:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

"Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport," Musk said.

The rich can afford such a vehicle but on what 80% of american ($40,000) make its not very practical as far as cost go and even the hybirds that cost in the $30 to $40 k range are not really saving you all that much.

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#3 2019-02-02 19:06:18

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

SpaceNut,

Tesla could make Model 3's with a 160 mile range for around $10K less.  I still don't understand what magic a 300 mile or 500 mile range provides.  Very few people drive 80 miles or more to go to work.  If Tesla makes the primary batteries available separately for a monthly service fee, then they can contract with service stations to set up a network of battery swap facilities that use GPS and battery depletion rate to tell drivers where to go to swap batteries.  That's the same model that makes gas powered cars work so well.  If people had to purchase all the fuel they'd use for the next 3 to 5 years, or however long they own a car, then very few people could afford that, either.  It's Tesla's own concept and technology and I believe it's already built into the Model 3's.

Imagine a Tesla Model 3 that costs $20K that the owner pays a monthly battery usage fee for battery service / usage.  The battery belongs to a third party that the vehicle owner pays their service / usage fee to.  The third party swaps packs between vehicles as required / desired by the vehicle owner and it also supplies backup battery power supplies for homes, data centers, and office buildings and makes a profit off of providing that service.  It doesn't matter that it costs more than outright purchase of the vehicle and battery over time because the up-front cost to the vehicle owner is still so much lower than any equivalent gasoline powered car and the battery can continue to generate revenue for its third party owner even after it's no longer suitable for vehicle use through transfer of capacity to less demanding applications.  This is little different in concept to leasing a vehicle, except that the owner owns the vehicle shell and leases the power storage technology from a third party that owns the pool of battery resources used for various applications.

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#4 2019-02-02 19:34:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

As much as I would like a low 10k to 15k price tag for commute and travel they are not even close to that price.
My daily commute round trip is 70 plus average.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/01/ … urope.aspx

The company's global expansion of its higher-end Model 3 versions is part of its plan to achieve improved economies of scale so it can finally launch its promised $35,000 version, which will have a lower profit margin than high-end versions. "Higher volume and manufacturing design improvements are crucial for Tesla to achieve the economies of scale required to manufacture the standard range (220 mile), standard interior Model 3 at $35k and still be a viable company."

Sorry, that $35,000 Tesla Model 3 isn't coming anytime soon

Musk sounded content with the current price of $45,000

https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3

Tesla Model 3 Pricing and Which One to Buy
Mid Range Battery: $47,200
Long Range Battery: $50,200
Performance: $65,200

https://www.caranddriver.com/best-hybrid-electric-cars

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids … questions/

So if you have an EV or hybrid whats it going to cost you in recharging

https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does … ctric-car/

For the gas:

The average cost for a gallon of regular gasoline in the US over the past two years was $2.35/gallon. Using 15,000 miles as the average amount of miles a person will drive in a year, the annual cost of gasoline for the average car will be about $1,400 per year,

For electricity with average price:

The average cost of electricity in the US is 12 cents per kWh. Therefore, the average person driving the average EV 15,000 miles per year pays about $540.00 per year to charge it. As mentioned, the cost of electricity can vary greatly depending on where you live,

Five 100 watt light bulbs use 500 watts. In 24 hours they use 12,000 watt-hours or 12 kWh. In 365 days they use 4,380 kWh. A typical EV that uses 30 kWh for every 100 miles will use 4,500 kWh to drive 15,000 miles.

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#5 2019-02-02 21:18:30

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

SpaceNut,

I'm not sure what to tell you.  There's presently no way to make the batteries any cheaper than they already are for the same energy density.  The only way to defray the initial costs to the owner is with a service and fee-based model.  The Ammonia alkaline fuel cells have the potential to be much cheaper.  Ammonia is a storable chemical that contains 1.5 times as much Hydrogen as LH2 at room temperature and around 7.8 atmospheres of pressure.  Modern gasoline engines have fuel pumping systems that operate at the same pressures.  That's far lower than any of the pressurized gaseous H2 tanks, which all operate between 5,000psi and 10,000psi.  Toyota transports liquid Ammonia to refueling stations and uses a plasma membrane H2 cracker to extract very high purity H2 for filling the Mirai's 10,000psi H2 tanks, but a plasma cracker could be incorporated into the vehicle's fuel cell stack and then LNH3 stores quite nicely at a tiny fraction of that pressure.

Another way to look at the problem is like this:

A 30mpg gasoline powered car requires 10 gallons of gas to go 300 miles.  The prototypical 4-banger weighs between 300lbs and 400lbs.  The fuel tank and gas add another 80lbs or so.

Current technology alkaline fuel cells using KaOH catalysts require a little less than 3 gallons of LNH3 to go 300 miles.  The entire weight of the stack, LNH3 tank, and LNH3 is around 150lbs, but definitely less than 200lbs even if it's not optimized by integrating the balance-of-plant into the stack to eliminate the extra external control systems.  The Mirai's pair of woven composite overwrap H2 tanks weigh a total of 193lbs empty.  Presuming the 2008 to 2016 average of $0.45/lb for LNH3, that's $6.75 per fill-up or $337.50 per year with 15,000 miles of driving.  The current price for LNH3 is $0.20 per pound.  The bad news is that around 1,000 hours, the fuel cell would require a teardown to replace the KaOH-laden MEA's and gaskets.  That's easily several hours of labor, but 5 to 6 hours is a reasonable estimate.  The plates could last a very long time if they're made from stainless steel.

Tesla's Model 3 requires a 1,054lb Lithium-ion battery to go 300 miles.  If 500Wh/kg batteries were available, then weight becomes comparable to a gas-powered car.  The battery pack is about half the price of the car.

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#6 2019-02-03 10:42:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Energy_c … on_of_cars

Factors for efficiency plus general use: (equations on this article link)

1. Air drag
2. Braking and accelerating
3. Rolling resistance

Idling in stop and go traffic is the one that gets gas vehicles the most...and depends on the size of the engine with desiels being different.

https://www.energuide.be/en/questions-a … tery/1621/

Charging rate time is dependant of the battery but depending on hot charge to trickle could vary from 1/2 hr to 10 hrs...

Sort brings you back to how you drive the vehicle as well.

https://www.energuide.be/en/questions-a … r-use/212/
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/th … c-car.html

It takes 33.3 kWh to equal the energy in a gallon of gasoline but only about 20% of that gets to the wheels...

The cost to charge is also dependsing on on or off peak hrs rates from the power supplier.

Of course if you have the doh to buy solar array you could use that instead.

In the Los Angeles area, a 1-kilowatt solar system will produce an average of 4 kWh of power per day. A Chevrolet Bolt, which is EPA rated at 28 kWh/100 miles, and is one of the more efficient EVs available, would need at least a 3.5-kW system to get 50 miles of range per daily charge. Such a system costs about $7,000 and doesn't include the cost of a storage battery to hold power for overnight charging. That feature could double the cost. Put another way, a $7,000 system would purchase almost 140,000 miles' worth of power for a Bolt, assuming a rate of 18 cents per kWh.

The national average installed cost of a 6-kW system is $13,278, or $2.21 per watt, after applying the 30 percent federal tax credit, according to EnergySage, a Boston-based service that links homeowners with solar system providers across the country.

The range across the country varies from $9,200 to $16,044. In California, a 6-kW system can run from $12,000 to more than $15,000 after the credit. There are a number of solar system financing and leasing programs, and some utilities also offer incentives.

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#7 2019-03-02 18:37:28

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

For kbd512

Your post here included the word ammonia, so I'm hoping you will not mind if I drop off a link I just found to work done in Canada to develop ammonia as an alternative real-world fuel:

https://www.ozy.com/rising-stars/hes-cr … llon/92686

kbd512 wrote:

SpaceNut,

I'm not sure what to tell you.  There's presently no way to make the batteries any cheaper than they already are for the same energy density.  The only way to defray the initial costs to the owner is with a service and fee-based model.  The Ammonia alkaline fuel cells have the potential to be much cheaper.  Ammonia is a storable chemical that contains 1.5 times as much Hydrogen as LH2 at room temperature and around 7.8 atmospheres of pressure.  Modern gasoline engines have fuel pumping systems that operate at the same pressures.  That's far lower than any of the pressurized gaseous H2 tanks, which all operate between 5,000psi and 10,000psi.  Toyota transports liquid Ammonia to refueling stations and uses a plasma membrane H2 cracker to extract very high purity H2 for filling the Mirai's 10,000psi H2 tanks, but a plasma cracker could be incorporated into the vehicle's fuel cell stack and then LNH3 stores quite nicely at a tiny fraction of that pressure.

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#8 2019-03-02 20:09:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

Ammonia can be put into electrolysis hust the same as water and then you can feed the hydrogen into a fuel cell with external oxygen to create power. The output from the electrolysis is to capture the nitrogen and after electrolysis of the fuels cells output of water is to make more ammonia with the hydrogen. One could use solar power to do the work of electrolysis to help make this a near closed loop function. Feed in more water as needed.

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#9 2019-03-03 17:07:28

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

tahanson43206,

This is the key to using Ammonia in gas turbine engines:

Gifu University Ammonia Cracker

Gifu University's device cracks NH3 using high voltage to produce 99.999% pure H2.  That level of H2 purity is greater than what a PEM fuel cell requires, but gas turbine engines and alkaline fuel cells can also run on that.

The hydrogen gas turbine, successfully fired with a 30% fuel mix, is a major step towards a carbon-free society

I support an energy diversity approach.  Light passenger vehicles are not the only types of vehicles that we should focus on improving.  Batteries are impractical for most aviation and marine applications where high continuous power output is required.  As batteries improve, certain limited but useful applications such as short commuter flights or ferry runs between coastal or riverine areas will be practical.  If we could just get Lithium-ion to 500Wh/kg, regional electric jets would become practical.

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#10 2019-03-03 18:35:08

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

For kbd512 ...

Thanks for picking up on the post about ammonia ...

The first link (gifu-u.ac.jp) was interesting but not as easy for me to decode as the second! 

The explanation of the difficulty of adding hydrogen as a component of a fuel mix was helpful.  I was glad to be informed about the challenge of flashback, and the various techniques developed to try to address it.

The payoff for reading to the end was finding ammonia listed as a candidate hydrogen transport mechanism.

***
As a side note, and to avoid creating a separate post, I'd like to confess to disappointment that my attempt to describe an enclosed bicycle vehicle for Mars was not successful.  Apparently no one who read that post noted that I was trying to describe an enclosed cabin, within which a human could operate a mechanical drive mechanism in case the primary electrical drive system failed.

This would have been a great place to have inserted an image, so I'll try to remember that in future.

My first idea was a thin walled aluminum shell, but (upon reflection) I now think that a transparent plastic bubble would enclose useful atmosphere around the operator, and provide unlimited visibility.  A risk for the operator of such a vehicle would be unwanted influence of Martian winds, although I suppose a tail wind would be useful if it could be managed.

(th)

kbd512 wrote:

tahanson43206,

This is the key to using Ammonia in gas turbine engines:

Gifu University Ammonia Cracker

Gifu University's device cracks NH3 using high voltage to produce 99.999% pure H2.  That level of H2 purity is greater than what a PEM fuel cell requires, but gas turbine engines and alkaline fuel cells can also run on that.

The hydrogen gas turbine, successfully fired with a 30% fuel mix, is a major step towards a carbon-free society

I support an energy diversity approach.  Light passenger vehicles are not the only types of vehicles that we should focus on improving.  Batteries are impractical for most aviation and marine applications where high continuous power output is required.  As batteries improve, certain limited but useful applications such as short commuter flights or ferry runs between coastal or riverine areas will be practical.  If we could just get Lithium-ion to 500Wh/kg, regional electric jets would become practical.

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#11 2019-03-04 08:35:19

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

If Ammonia is used directly in a combustion process you will get some Nitrogen Oxides formed. These are very serious pollutants. If it is to be broken down into Nitrogen and Hydrogen then it should be used in a fuel cell which will give much better efficiency, not being subject to the limitations applying to heat engines.

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#12 2019-03-04 11:37:47

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,423
Website

Re: Elon Musk Releases All Tesla Patents To Help Save The Earth

To use ammonia,  you need a closed cycle to create it again,  from the products of using it.  That takes a lot of energy.  It is only "worth it" if the convenience of that kind of liquid storage of energy is worth the cost of the energy (from ??? source) to create it.  Plus,  you must identify the resources and the processes from which to make it,  and by which to use it.

Ammonia is quite toxic,  even in mildly concentrated forms,  but we have enough experience with it,  to know how to handle it with few accidents.  Farmers do it all the time now.  The equipment required to do it is not lightweight.  It never will be.  If you stint on the weight,  you guarantee a leak.  If it leaks into a confined space where people are,  they WILL die.  Simple as that.

Just some things to consider. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-03-04 11:39:35)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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