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#26 2019-02-27 16:59:51

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,653
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Louis:

The links between vaccines and things like autism were thoroughly debunked years ago.  It is unpoliced social media that still spreads those lies,  and you seem to have fallen for those lies,  hook,  line,  and sinker. 

That is not to say big pharma wouldn't sell something harmful if they thought they could get away with it,  because they would,  and they have.  The giant corporations will always need vigilant policing,  because money is power,  and lots of it corrupts absolutely.  We have known that for centuries.

But we have also known (for over 2 centuries now) that vaccines do lots of good with trivial (virtually-zero) harm.  It REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#27 2019-02-27 17:53:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

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#28 2019-02-27 21:49:38

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,961

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

GW,

I always thought that protecting our children from painful and ugly deaths due to debilitating or lethal diseases would be less controversial than it is, but apparently not.

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#29 2019-02-28 03:27:37

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

louis,

Vaccination works *by* stimulating the immune system. It primes the existing immune system so it's ready to fight off infection. It's no different to deliberately trying to get exposed to chickenpox to acquire an immunity, except that the virus is pre-killed so you can't actually develop an infection (which is why we can use it for very dangerous viruses - try having a polio party instead of vaccination and see how far your legs take you afterwards).


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#30 2019-02-28 17:28:08

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

An expert witness (pro vaccine) has blown the whistle on how the cover up was implemented:

https://vaccinedeaths.com/2019-02-15-go … utism.html

This just confirms for me my suspicions.

I've seen in my own working life how surveys can be manipulated to deliver the right answer statistically (e.g. judicious choice of statistical parameters like confidence levels plus use of misleading language).


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#31 2019-02-28 20:05:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

If this is true in that Big Pharma has great influence over the CDC and the FDA then why no federal investigation.

Also if found true then out of my family of 6 which we had 3 would fall into the pool of effected by vacine reactions or allergies.

Since many vacines are food protein containing there is a greater chance for those that are food allergic to have a reaction but thats not a creation of desease which have no bases on food allergies.

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#32 2019-02-28 20:19:10

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

From all I have read (in what you might call the "vaccine-sceptic" media),  genetic predisposition seems to be key to vaccine damage so it will likely affect some families disproportionately.

SpaceNut wrote:

If this is true in that Big Pharma has great influence over the CDC and the FDA then why no federal investigation.

Also if found true then out of my family of 6 which we had 3 would fall into the pool of effected by vacine reactions or allergies.

Since many vacines are food protein containing there is a greater chance for those that are food allergic to have a reaction but thats not a creation of desease which have no bases on food allergies.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#33 2019-02-28 20:55:55

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,961

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Louis,

We keep looking for evidence to support such an assertion and keep rolling a donut in the evidence department.  If we could find such evidence, you can bet your last dollar that liars, I mean lawyers, and competitors would be all over that like flies on the stinky brown stuff.  We've tried again and again.  Some theories just don't pan out.  String theory comes immediately to mind, for example.  Some part of it may be true, but we just can't seem to find anything we can measure in the physical world to lend creedence to the idea and few believe it's for lack of trying.

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#34 2019-03-01 17:38:16

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,513
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

louis wrote:

...https://vaccinedeaths.com/2019-02-15-go … utism.html...

Ah yes the website vaccine deaths dot com.  Seems very unbiased and trustworthy, yes.  I'm sure that's where educated people go to try to hash out evidence-based answers to scientific questions, definitely.

*eyeroll*


-Josh

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#35 2019-03-01 18:32:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

If a predisposition is a detectable genetic test and then you monitor for the marks that show its changed after taking the vacination then you might have the smoking gun.

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#36 2019-03-01 19:37:59

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

In Joshworld there are never vaccine deaths...?

JoshNH4H wrote:
louis wrote:

...https://vaccinedeaths.com/2019-02-15-go … utism.html...

Ah yes the website vaccine deaths dot com.  Seems very unbiased and trustworthy, yes.  I'm sure that's where educated people go to try to hash out evidence-based answers to scientific questions, definitely.

*eyeroll*


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#37 2019-03-01 19:45:13

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

If a vaccine had a 1% noticeably harmful effect on 5% of the population but in diverse ways, varying from minor to life-changing,  I doubt it would be picked up by these studies given all the other statistical "noise"...especially if people don't actually want to find that result. Lots of people do get compensation for vaccine damage but in the USA and UK the state has separated out the compensation scheme from the general judicial system, so it is far less "visible" in the media.


kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

We keep looking for evidence to support such an assertion and keep rolling a donut in the evidence department.  If we could find such evidence, you can bet your last dollar that liars, I mean lawyers, and competitors would be all over that like flies on the stinky brown stuff.  We've tried again and again.  Some theories just don't pan out.  String theory comes immediately to mind, for example.  Some part of it may be true, but we just can't seem to find anything we can measure in the physical world to lend creedence to the idea and few believe it's for lack of trying.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#38 2019-03-02 09:51:51

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,653
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Per post 32 above,  Louis already says he goes to "vaccine-skeptic" media for his facts.  He misspelled it as "sceptic",  but so what?  Perhaps that is a UK spelling.  Not important.

This is important:  my point is that you don't go to a conspiracy-theory echo chamber if you want facts!  We've already seen that in countless topic areas and issues,  and it does damage.  If you don't hear dissenting views,  then you are in an echo chamber listening to propaganda lies,  not truth. Simple as that.

Vaccines work.  The harmful outcome rate has historically been way far smaller than 1%,  and yes,  that is EXACTLY the sort of tiny effects they look for in those studies. 

The thing you need to worry about is not the vaccine,  because those development procedures put the harmful outcome rate in the 1/100,000 to 1/1,000,000 class.  The thing you need to worry about is adequate regulation and liability laws so that the profit motive does not trump ethics. 

If you don't watch close enough,  they will use bad quality to raise profit,  which does kill.  The bigger they are,  the more likely this is,  and the closer you need to watch them.  That is the history lesson of millennia of human experience with market-type economics that use money. 

You watch the giant corporations' behavior,  you employ the finicky procedures that produce good, effective vaccines.  Then you allow only tiny amounts of medically-necessary exemptions,  so that otherwise-mandatory-for-public-health widespread vaccination produces herd immunity,  and effectively wipe out the disease. 

It has become politically-popular to allow philosophical or "religious" exemptions,  which is THE reason for the recent outbreaks of measles,  etc.  Once again we have been betrayed by pandering politicians willing to damage public health to get more votes.

THAT is the real ugly truth here,  not any of that anti-vax nonsense.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-03-02 09:53:16)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#39 2019-03-04 21:13:43

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

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#40 2019-03-05 15:26:53

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

There is an autism epidemic. It's time to stop this absurd fairy tale that it's down to "increased diagnosis".

New Jersey's rate rose to 1 in 22 boys in 2014! This is a horrific health crisis. In a population of 1 million boys that will mean over 45,000 boys in effect are cognitively crippled to varying degrees for life: this is a life sentence. 

"Dr. Walter Zahorodny, an assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Newark and he was the lead researcher on the New Jersey portion of a CDC rate study.  He was interviewed for Philly.com in March, 2014 about the update in the autism rate to one in every 68 children.  Zahorodny said, 'It's a true increase. It's a change of great magnitude. It's silly to go on debating that.'  Furthermore, he said the numbers are going to get even worse."

https://www.ageofautism.com/2018/05/aut … ersey.html

No one knows what is causing the rise but it seems difficult to see an alternative explanation to general vaccination. Pollutants? The US is far less polluted now than it was 50 years ago in most regards, although water is contaminated with medical residues and so on...

I suppose the growth in microwave transmissions might fit the bill, but no one I know of has linked them. I have heard microwaves transmission mentioned as a possible explanation for the huge reduction in insect life across the western world (something I can confirm to be the case since these days on the motorway your car no longer gets covered in flies in summer).

I adopt a precautionary approach to all these big environmental/health issues. I think we should certainly begin by reigning back on the introduction of new vaccines. We then need a rational appraisal of all vaccines. We've never given cholera vaccines to children in the UK because cholera was eliminated through good public health measures.

Good videos from Wakefield (who has been censored out of existence in the UK):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv4qUymig9M

The above video shows that the really huge reductions in mortality with the classic vaccination diseases occurred well before introduction of vaccines. Improved sanitation and nutrition was the key.  Had we not gone down the vaccination route, the likelihood we would have seen continued falls in any case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7kbWfsygG4


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#41 2019-03-05 16:53:19

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,961

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Louis,

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and don't play one on TV.

If I had to guess, the increases we're seeing in ASD's boil down to three things:

1. men and women are waiting until they're way past their prime to have children, and have damaged sperm and embryos as a result
2. environmental factors- certain chemicals cocktails can profoundly affect early development
3. broad spectrum diagnoses that may be incorrect, since there's no objective test for ASD's

A kid who won't sit still in class may have any number of things going on.  It may not have a thing to do with ADHD, even if it gets diagnosed that way by intellectually lazy adults.

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#42 2019-03-05 17:21:47

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,513
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

One really interesting thing about this is that louis earlier made the claim that studies could not find evidence of harms caused by vaccines and is now making the claim that there is an obvious problem with an obvious answer.  Generally when things are obvious they are also easier to study.

Anyone reading or posting on this forum is by definition a person who interacts with a group of people that might be called (in the most positive possible way) "internet nerds".  Based on anecdotal evidence, autism and aspergers are much more common among that subset of the population.  I have to say that in my opinion our community and many others are better off for it.

So here's another lens through which to look at it: We have an imaginary relationship between vaccines and ASDs, vs a very real relationship between a lack of vaccines and all sorts of archaic diseases.


-Josh

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#43 2019-03-05 17:55:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Well neither am I but I am sure No. 1 would have been subject to statistical analysis. I have never heard anyone claim it's related to parental age but obviously it should definitely be considered.

No. 2 is certainly a possibility and needs to be investigated.

No. 3 - I don't think anyone is suggesting there hasn't been more diagnosis of autism but the broad spectrum approach became common at least 20 years ago in advanced societies and whilst text books may think in terms of spectrum there is generally resistance from the state to commiting huge resources to what might be mild symptoms - ie I am sure there are many parents trying to get their diagnosed with ASD but are not having success, so it's as likely that mild forms are undiagnosed in the official statistics.   







kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and don't play one on TV.

If I had to guess, the increases we're seeing in ASD's boil down to three things:

1. men and women are waiting until they're way past their prime to have children, and have damaged sperm and embryos as a result
2. environmental factors- certain chemicals cocktails can profoundly affect early development
3. broad spectrum diagnoses that may be incorrect, since there's no objective test for ASD's

A kid who won't sit still in class may have any number of things going on.  It may not have a thing to do with ADHD, even if it gets diagnosed that way by intellectually lazy adults.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#44 2019-03-05 18:03:29

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Well see the Wakefield video - vaccination was not what really vanquished the mortality rates from childhood diseases: it was good sanitation, good accommodation and good nutrition. You might say vaccination applied the icing to the cake but to ascribe the elimination of mortality from these diseases principally to vaccination is just plain wrong in the advanced societies. Of course if I was living in a Kenyan slum with no proper sanitation and with a malnourished family I would favour vaccination. It would be a rational choice.

It's true that functioning adults on the ASD spectrum can contribute fantastically to society. People at that end of the spectrum tend not to get referred to specialists during childhood.  Their problems tend to emerge more in teenage and adult years. 

JoshNH4H wrote:

One really interesting thing about this is that louis earlier made the claim that studies could not find evidence of harms caused by vaccines and is now making the claim that there is an obvious problem with an obvious answer.  Generally when things are obvious they are also easier to study.

Anyone reading or posting on this forum is by definition a person who interacts with a group of people that might be called (in the most positive possible way) "internet nerds".  Based on anecdotal evidence, autism and aspergers are much more common among that subset of the population.  I have to say that in my opinion our community and many others are better off for it.

So here's another lens through which to look at it: We have an imaginary relationship between vaccines and ASDs, vs a very real relationship between a lack of vaccines and all sorts of archaic diseases.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#45 2019-03-05 20:09:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

If there was a vacine for Fybromyalgia that would be also a step in a direction but its the broad symptoms that are the issue and no real test that can be performed to show that its real. The one thing that is known is sensitive to the touch all over painfrom even light pressure, pain from even moving which echo authoritis and a plausible coulprit in tick born desease but not lyme persay. What we have found is the desease does run the course but the damage is lasting for the person even when doing all that you can as recogmended by the doctors. Time frame is 12 plus years and for most it seems around 16 that the sensitivity is gone but the pain from authoritis continues with movement.

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#46 2019-03-05 21:16:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

The author’s observation might be truer than he imagined. In a new study, scientists found that broken DNA builds up in brain cells in the daytime, and that repair work only reverses the damage during sleep.
Sleep repairs DNA

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#47 2019-03-06 04:44:47

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

cognitively crippled

Oh no! Whatever will I do? According to louis, I am serving a life sentence with no possibility for parole...

The obvious way to check if it's simply down to people being more alert is to see if rates among adults have increased as well. I'm not talking about rates among people *seeking* diagnosis, either - a lot of people who would have met the requirements as children won't be seeking out a diagnosis today, so they won't be counted.

The increase is also at the 'milder' end of the spectrum. If 5% of boys had classic autism, it would be pretty obvious.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#48 2019-03-06 06:02:56

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,122

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract … k5oqHxhqTw
Big study in Denmark. Published and peer reviewed!

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#49 2019-03-06 08:50:20

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,961

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Elderflower,

Thank you for that.  I just heard about that on the radio while driving my kids to school.

Louis,

If there's a link between autism and vaccinations, we've spent an awful lot of money on trying to establish a link and keep coming up empty-handed.  Maybe, just maybe, we should start looking elsewhere so we stand some chance of actually finding the link.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.  We've tried like hell to find easy answers and establish obvious links between vaccinations and other illnesses.  We just can't seem to find them.  There's no squirrel up that tree.  Barking at it some more won't cause the squirrel we're chasing after to materialize.

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#50 2019-03-06 09:18:21

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Vaccinate Your Children!

Novonordisk, the prime funders of the study, are a multinational pharmaceutical company that makes products used in vaccine manufacture.  Would you trust a health study about cigarette smoking from a tobacco processor, however much it might have been "peer-reviewed"? Of course not. I don't see why we have to take these studies on trust.  I would only give credence to studies undertaken by paediatricians.

elderflower wrote:

https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract … k5oqHxhqTw
Big study in Denmark. Published and peer reviewed!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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