Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

Phobos · 2002-05-10 20:07:56

The last topic in this forum got me thinking as to what should be done to a crew member if they crack and go dangerously insane, especially if your three months away from Earth. You can't just turn around and get back home the next day. Should there be drugs or restraints on board the ship/lander for the express purpose of keeping an insane person from wrecking the mission and endangering everyones lives?
How do you suppose the first permanent Mars colonies would deal with such situations? It would take a lot of resources to keep a prison population alive. It might be easier just to ship them back to Earth if they're beyond reform, providing your still under the laws of your mother country.

Cobra Commander · 2002-05-10 22:24:39

There is always the possibility of a crewman who has become a danger to the group succumbing to an unfortunate "accident" of some sort. There are many things that can happen to a person on Mars, particularly if the others are inclined to overlook certain details. Justice on colonial Mars may not be of the familiar civilized form, instead opting for an earlier and harder variety.

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-11 05:18:40

Regarding your first thought, Phobos, the "destabilizing" of a crewmember is an important concern that mission planners would have to prepare for. (Kim Stanley Robinson and Ben Bova have both had literary field days with the possibility!) Hopefully, careful crew selection and training would reduce the probability of such an occurance to nearly nil, but what if the "impossible" happened? Just off the top of my head, here are a few options:

-- Incarcerate the ill crewmember in his stateroom or in some empty storage area.

-- Sedate the ill crewmember for the duration of the mission.

In either of these cases, some mission objectives could still be achieved, although significant mission resources would be required to care for the ill crewmember and guard against any danger he might cause to himself or the mission. Dependent upon the specifics of the situation, mission planners might deem it wise to abort the mission entirely and simply return to Earth. If a crewmember became a danger to himself or others, I think this is the safest alternative...barring one:

-- The ill crewmember could be executed. As harsh as it sounds, such a step might appear necessary to ensure the safety of the crew and the mission. However, the phychological load that such an execution would place on the remaining crewmembers would likely be so high as to affect their efficiency or even their mental health and stability. Such an option in the relationally tight dynamic of a small (less than 12) crew could have devistating effects.

None of these options are "pretty," and all would severly limit the amount of useful work a mission could accomplish -- in fact, such a radical destabilization would more than likely force the aborting of the mission. Any other ideas out there?

Adrian · 2002-05-11 08:28:05

As much as I want to echo Peter and say, 'Don't be ridiculous, this will never happen on a Mars mission,' the fact remains that if it can happen, it will happen. And even if it (a crew member going completely and dangerously insane) doesn't happen, there are still other significant mental problems to be aware of.

To my mind, if someone really did go dangerously insane on a Mars mission, there would be little to do except to keep him tied down and sedated. Psychological therapy would be a possibility, but I doubt it'd be very effective when you're several light minutes from Earth. And let's face it, execution isn't going to happen.

But what about depression, or mild schizophrenia (and by that, I don't mean split personality syndrome) or something similar? What about interpersonal conflicts during a mission?

I suspect that there is quite a lot of literature on this subject - it seems like NASA and ESA almost permanently have people locked up in pseudo-Mars habitats for months at a time (indeed, we have an article about here at New Mars). They haven't been without their fair share of minor fights.

BTW, about prisons in the first Mars colonies. It might be worthwhile to see how they handle crime on offshore oilrigs, submarines, Antarctic bases and other remote and difficult to access locations.

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-11 10:24:13

That's not exactly what I was trying to say, Adrian...my point was because it is impossible to ensure that a mental destabilization will not occur, mission planners would have to at least consider it and write contingency plans to account for it.

I'm not so sure that execution (I wish there was some better word...) would be ruled out by mission planners out of hand. It warrants serious consideration. Do you have any idea how massive nine months worth of valium is...or how much storage space it requires? Given the mass/space restrictions on any of the more feasible mission architectures we discuss here on a regular basis, it seems unlikely that mission planners would choose to haul that volume of drugs to Mars and back unless there was sufficiently high probability of it being needed.

As I stated above, I don't like any of the solutions that have been posed here, for a combination of logistical and ethical reasons. There must be some solution we're overlooking. I'm hoping a few others will weigh in on the issue. (Hint hint! )

Adrian · 2002-05-11 12:02:16

Sorry, I was aware of that, it just came out a bit wrong

As for execution - well, I don't think that you'd need nine months supply of any sedative drug - perhaps a few weeks would be enough to get a crewmember back on his or her feet. But perhaps not. Anyway - even if execution may have its advantages from a utilitarian point of view, I am willing to say that it will never become an option on a manned mission to Mars - not unless someone else's life is in fatal and immediate danger - in which case it really ceases to become an execution in the traditional sense. The politics of execution and the fact that the crewmembers (at least one of whom will be military) would never follow the order through strongly suggests to me that it will not occur.

The thing is, you can't really account for everything. If one crewmember starts rampaging around the ship and smashing stuff up, the mission could well be pretty much over. But the likelihood of that happening is pretty much zero. There's an interesting story to go with this. Apparently once the designers of the Space Shuttle were told to write up a booklet detailing contingencies plans for every possible situation they could think up. And they did pretty well. But in one part, they said:

"Problem: Wings could fall off Shuttle."
"Solution: Design Shuttle so that wings do not fall off."

So that's the thing - you just design the mission so that no-one goes insane. Bit more difficult, but certainly possible.

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-11 12:33:50

I think having a trained psychologist, with expertise in counseling and non-drug therapy, would go a long way toward fulfilling that "design requirement."

Phobos · 2002-05-11 12:49:48

The last thing I thought I was going to read was the use of execution as a means of bringing a dangerous crewmate under
control. I agree with Adrian that this probably won't happen on a NASA or other state supported mission but it would probably have a good chance of occuring on a mission of
private colonists who are paying their own way. This reminds me of a short story I read way back about a stowaway that
hid onboard a ship and when discovered was ejected out of the airlock because the ship wouldn't have been able to complete its mission with the extra mass. Space is a harsh frontier, I no longer think these ideas of executions and murder are so far out on the final frontier. Anyways, that's a good idea studying how irrational people are handled on deep sea oil rigs and antartic bases. There might be a few lessons
to learn there. I think Peter is right to, maybe there should be a psychologist on the crew that has experience dealing with insane people.

RobS · 2002-05-11 23:39:37

I'd like to broaden out this topic a bit, to the problems of petty crime. Once there are enough people on Mars, an option for some circumstances would be sending the person to a remote outpost. This would work for some crimes--theft, for example--or hurting others (fistfights). It might even work for some psychological problems; sometimes isolation can be useful. In some cases there would be privileges that could be taken away. I suspect it will be impossible to ban alcohol from Mars--the Russians have it on all their flights, I gather--but one could take away drinking privileges for transgressions. Or if the coffee is getting short, one could take away the coffee drinking privilege!

I think petty crimes (including fights) are a much more serious problem than insanity. Even friends can become enemies under the wrong circumstances of isolation and intense interaction in tight quarters. As you may have heard, NASA has made little effort to test people for compatibility. The MIR space station had many difficult moments when crewmembers argued. The American and Russian crews on Mir were poorly integrated together (I suspect ISS is better). There were serious problems in understanding because of language difficulities. Any international Mars flight could face serious cultural differences as well. If a Mars team is chosen this way--the US gets to choose one, Russia one, France one, Canada one, Japan one--the result could be a bunch of people thrilled to be going to Mars, but not particularly liking or understanding each other.

-- RobS

Phobos · 2002-05-12 12:56:07

Interesting point about alcohol. I read somewhere that the alcoholism rate on Antartica is like ten times higher than normal anywhere else in the world. And I bet a Mars colony would/could develop an extreme problem with alcoholism for the same reason that Antartica does, it's a way of "coping" with the isolation and mundane. And banning it probably won't work in the long run as people could just make their own from crops they grow. And your definately right about
petty crime being a serious issue. Little annoyances, like people stealing your share of the alcohol, tend to be magnified a hundred fold in environments like Antartica and undoubtedly Mars.

HeloTeacher · 2002-05-26 05:44:07

I have a little insight here. I am a helicopter pilot by trade and currently work in support of off-shore oil production in Africa. Nearly my entire career has been spent in and out out of isolated and culturally foreign areas to one degree or another.

About the oil rigs, they are supported by relatively rapid transportation both by surface vessels and or helicopter support. They export their problems.

Even the recently publicized case of the sick doctor in the Antarctic showed that as much as possible, they try to do the same.

Mars will not have that option.

My current posting is a good example of what we will see on a Mars mission, in general if not specifics. I work with a group of guys that are chosen for professional qualifications, not at all by how well we get along with each other. We live together in a set of crew houses and spend much more time with each other than we do with our wives or children. At the start of a tour, we generally start happy and ready to work. As the weeks pass the little things, whether it is crew-mates idosyncracies or the frustrations of working and living in Africa, work on you like a never-ending water torture, and after 5 or 6 weeks you find yourself irritable, tired, and thinking only of home. Each of us tries to find something to relieve this stress, and as was stated previously, many people resort to alcohol.

I see many of the crew structure ideas that are posted here or in NASA documents and I wonder if anyone who is writing them has spent ANY time in situations like this? People WILL crack, especially if you stuff 6 or 12 of them in a little can and launch them on a 3 year journey together. The key is to be prepared to let them blow off the steam without causing irreparable harm.

The best idea, in my eyes, is to let them crewmembers choose each other. No phoney closed ballots, hidden comments, or commitee decisions. Choose the people you will be married to for the next few years yourseld, and choose with care.

On the topic of crime and insanity, imagine how you would react after commiting 5 or 6 years (or more) to prepare for a mission to another planet, to be the first one there, and one of your crew-members decides to act up and cancel the trip. And to top it off, you get to still spend the next year or two with them on the way home. Now tell me this upstart won't be dealt with by the rest of the crew...

Adrian · 2002-05-26 08:10:25

That's a very interesting post, Heloteacher. There is a case being made for crew self-selection although I don't believe NASA takes it too seriously - I imagine they're still stuck in the top-down hierarchy of making decisions and in any case think that their crews can do no wrong.

A Mars crew has many similarities to other small crews in isolated circumstances, but there is one significant difference; NASA (or whoever) will have the capability to constantly monitor the activities and performance of its astronauts by video surveillance. Whether or not they choose to enact this, and if so exactly how they'll do it, is another thing. But how would the astronauts respond to, say, constant monitoring, intermittent monitoring and no monitoring? Would it reduce crime and interpersonal conflicts, or would it increase stress?

C M Edwards · 2002-05-26 08:34:15

What about psychological factors associated with physical injuries?

If one of the crew loses it, one of the main effects we are expecting is feelings of extreme resentment on the part of the crew. I'm seeing talk of "dealing with" the crewman in question and falling back on execution in extreme cases.

Since severe cases of mental illness can be as debilitating as a physical ailment, I wonder if we would expect similar results from cases where crew members were maimed, or came down with something catchy or were generally too sick to perform their duties. True, group reactions to physical breakdowns tend to be more rational than for mental breakdowns. There are concrete things to focus on. There are things to _do_. But one can also imagine scenarios where there is a mental component as well.

For example, a mentally ill crewman could deliberately injure himself. How should that be handled, knowing that even upon recovery he could easily do it again?

A crewman could come down with cancer during a three year mission. Would a crew "deal with" him rather than accept the burden of letting him linger for months, depleting supplies with the absolute certainty that nothing could be done? Of course, a person dying of cancer is still of sound mind. I wonder how the crew would deal with a suicide...

Or what if a female crewman in a coed crew became pregnant? (Your odds of getting pregnant on Depa-Provera are less than one in ten thousand, but if it happens, you're the one.) If this happened early enough, and an abortion procedure was unavailable -- or refused -- a small crew could easily find themselves without sufficient supplies to support another person. The psychological effects of a pregnancy could be made worse by the fact that a pregnant woman is not really sick; there's nothing to _do_.

Dealing with physical disabilities is not nearly as distinct from dealing with mental disabilities as we would like. However, I'm not fond of the idea of dealing with clinical problems (mental or physical) in the same way as one would deal with criminals.

CME

C M Edwards · 2002-05-26 13:14:41

Whoa, ya'll!

I just finished watching "The Lord of the Flies" on TV!

I'm not so sure I want to go to Mars anymore! :0

CME

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-28 07:36:52

Hi HeloTeacher !!
What an interesting life you've had! Makes mine look fairly ho-hum.
I see what you mean about the tension of difficult missions causing people to crack, and it sure seems like you're qualified to comment on this sort of thing. But (there's always a "but", isn't there! ), I think a Mars expedition would be different.
I could well be wrong, and maybe basic human nature will present an insuperable behaviour problem regardless, but I'm hoping and betting that the first Mars team will overcome their personal feelings. These people will have such a passion for what they're doing and will have trained for so long, that sheer professionalism and a shared understanding of the enormity of what they're doing will enable them to overlook one another's shortcomings.
I know it sounds pretentious but I honestly believe that I could spend 6 months in confined quarters with people who are of a like-mind about Mars; people who are as fascinated with the place as I am. And there must be infinitely better qualified people than me out there who are even more devoted to this quest than I am ... e.g. any astronaut you care to name! I don't think you would have any trouble at all finding volunteers with the "right stuff".
Dr. Zubrin has said that, in his opinion, humans will turn out to be the strongest link in the chain, not the weakest. The machines might break down but the astronauts won't!
I believe he'll be proven right.

clark · 2002-05-28 08:01:30

An interesting point Helo, however I am not sure that the concerns you have pointed out will neccessarily manifest themselves in a Manned mission to mars. While your perspective should be considered, the differences between your experiences and a space voyage are, well, worlds apart.

You work with a group of proffessionals chosen for their abilities and experience- how much psychological profiling and evaluation takes place in your work environment? Do you think it could compare with the psychological check-out any potential Mars-naut would go through prior to launch? During transit? Furthermore, any and all canadities are chosen well before the launch date- which allows for a team to be assembled- meaning that personality conflicts can be worked through prior to launch. It's not like everyone is going to show up on the launch pad and say, " Nice to meet ya! Let's go to Mars!"

While your personal experience explains volumes of what may confront astronauts living in such confined situations- shouldn't we consider the evidence of nuclear submarines and their crew? The crew are subjected to 6-9 months at a time of isolation. You have crew compliments of several hundred on these ships- yet the "insanity" is kept in check.

This issue of allowing astronauts to choose their team is nice, but ultimetly untenable. The goal of the mission is science- it is to learn as much as possible. We will be sending professionals, and as professionals, they must put aside any differences to succeed in the goal of the mission. Allowing the Mars team to choose it's memebers could mean that less qualified, but more "personable" people go to Mars- this isn't a hay ride with our friends, and the people who go to mars shouldn't get to go based on some popularity contest.

As long as they can get along well enough with others to get the job done is the only requirement that should be set. I don't like everyone I work with, yet I understand that the same people I do not like are integral to the job- so I deal with it.

Helo, could many of the problems you have encountered be the result of a little too much time on your hands? Astronauts drinking in space? that's simply absurd- crew is drunk, meteroite breaches hull, crew dies. There will be very very little free-time for any space trip, and you know the old saying, idle hands are the devils play thing.

Palomar · 2002-05-30 10:53:54

"But what about depression, or mild schizophrenia (and by that, I don't mean split personality syndrome) or something similar? What about interpersonal conflicts during a mission?"

*Surely the crew members will undergo extensive psychiatric screening and personality testing before the mission, including checking out their past medical histories, family history of psychiatric illness, etc.

--Cindy

Mars Society member since 6/01.

Phobos · 2002-05-30 17:36:39

I doubt if anyone would deny that a serious issue with mental health is a remote possibility on a carefully planned mission, but there's always that chance that some event could trip off a bad reaction in a crewmember. The same thing is generally true of engineering. You can design and test time after time some kind of hardware under different conditions successfully to the point you feel its absolutely flawless, but there's still always that possibility that the thing will refuse to work when you actually need it to. And we all know how Murphy's Law operates.

clark · 2002-05-31 09:40:40

Well, if you are serious about controlling for psychosis on a space mission, there is always the option of a lobotmoy prior to launch.

Hard to have personality conflicts without the personaility. ???

C M Edwards · 2002-05-31 10:03:00

Actually, mental health is a serious consideration on missions where extended isolation is expected.

The best book I ever read on this subject is Jack Stuster's _Bold Endeavors: Lessons from Polar & Space Exploration_ from the US Naval Institute Press, c. 1996. It is an overview of studies, case histories, and the definitive works on the sociology of isolation.

If you have any serious interest in designing a Mars mission to minimize risk of social problems, you must read this book.

CME

PS: If you expect actual crime or complete mental breakdown to be the most likely show-stopper for small crews, you may be in for a surprise. Those are merely the most dramatic -- and rarest -- of a host of interpersonal problems.

clark · 2002-05-31 10:35:23

Good suggestion regarding the background info. However, I wonder if the issue of "isolation" might be a bit exagerated. Conceivably any space mission would have a pretty sophisticated computer and communication array- they would in effect be the most well connected isolated people in space.

Email, radio transmissions, video feeds, internet access- the whole works could be provided to them. There will more than likely be several people going together, so they won't be completely alone- I would actually thinnk we have more to fear from a lack of personal space than from isolation.

C M Edwards · 2002-05-31 11:24:52

I would actually thinnk we have more to fear from a lack of personal space than from isolation.

Ah, but the lack of personal space is directly related to the conditions creating the isolation.

Still, we should indeed fear a lack of personal space. Personal space is desperately important for two reasons: 1) It's one of those "minor" issues that, if neglected, can devastate a mission by lowering morale and creating interpersonal conflicts; and 2) It's something that we can control. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't worry about personal space.

Never neglect privacy in an isolated, confined group. Privacy generally has the last laugh.

As for telecommunications being able to alleviate isolation, I'm not sure that they would have the same effectiveness if the responses were significantly delayed. I understand that the Mars Society has conducted some experiments along these lines at their Mars Analog stations. Were there any relevant results?

CME

Palomar · 2002-05-31 12:15:34

Phobos wrote: "I doubt if anyone would deny that a serious issue with mental health is a remote possibility on a carefully planned mission, but there's always that chance that some event could trip off a bad reaction in a crewmember. The same thing is generally true of engineering. You can design and test time after time some kind of hardware under different conditions successfully to the point you feel its absolutely flawless, but there's still always that possibility that the thing will refuse to work when you actually need it to. And we all know how Murphy's Law operates."

*I'm going a bit off-topic here, but actually I'd be more concerned with a crew member developing a ruptured appendix, or cancer, etc. If an emergency appendectomy couldn't be performed...

--Cindy

Mars Society member since 6/01

clark · 2002-05-31 13:13:36

I think as a matter of course all Mars astronauts should have their appendix's removed. Both men and women should also have parts of their reproductive systems saved for latter use as well. Women with hysterectomies would be more ideal than without. It might also be wise to remove tonsils.

It's a very brutal way to treat humans, but it is practical. Maybe save on some mass and weight...

Any other parts we can do with out?

C M Edwards · 2002-05-31 14:53:28

Ugh! Their hearts, perhaps?

CME

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2002-05-10 20:07:56

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#2 2002-05-10 22:24:39

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#3 2002-05-11 05:18:40

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#4 2002-05-11 08:28:05

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#5 2002-05-11 10:24:13

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#6 2002-05-11 12:02:16

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#7 2002-05-11 12:33:50

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#8 2002-05-11 12:49:48

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#9 2002-05-11 23:39:37

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#10 2002-05-12 12:56:07

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#11 2002-05-26 05:44:07

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#12 2002-05-26 08:10:25

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#13 2002-05-26 08:34:15

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#14 2002-05-26 13:14:41

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#15 2002-05-28 07:36:52

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#16 2002-05-28 08:01:30

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#17 2002-05-30 10:53:54

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#18 2002-05-30 17:36:39

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#19 2002-05-31 09:40:40

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#20 2002-05-31 10:03:00

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#21 2002-05-31 10:35:23

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#22 2002-05-31 11:24:52

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#23 2002-05-31 12:15:34

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#24 2002-05-31 13:13:36

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

#25 2002-05-31 14:53:28

Re: Crime and Insanity - What to do about it.

Board footer