Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

jfenciso · 2018-10-27 14:14:02

How would you manage the nutrient flow in Martian greenhouse? Nutrients are limited in space. What technique will you do to obtain nutrients for plants? It is expensive to bring the nutrient solution from Earth to Mars.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-27 14:29:16

Nutrients for greenhouse plant growth should initial be a small quantity of minerals until we can do then insitu from mars mining resources.

Nutrient and fertilizer management

Organic No Till vs. Synthetic Bottle Feeding

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publica … pb1616.pdf
Plant Nutrition & Fertilizers For Greenhouse Production

jfenciso · 2018-10-27 14:48:44

Currently, there is no study about the amount of soil radiation based on different soil profile. If there is a result, it will help us how deep we should get a radiation-free Martian soil.

The worries for me in Martian soil is the radiation and perchlorates.

Last edited by jfenciso (2018-10-27 14:49:33)

SpaceNut · 2018-10-27 15:52:19

If you are talking about UV radiation thats just a filter away for surface greenhouse constructions with glass.

Mars Soil May Be Toxic to Microbes

Ultraviolet (UV) radiation streaming from the sun "activates" chlorine compounds known as perchlorates, seem to be widespread in the Martian dirt; several NASA missions have detected them at a variety of locations. Perchlorates have some characteristics that would appear to boost the Red Planet's habitability.

jfenciso · 2018-10-27 23:58:36

Thank you for sharing your thought, I will look more information about your thought about perchlorates and plants.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-28 10:50:02

When we talk radiation there is a disconnect as to type and source that we would be exposed to.

Mars: First Radiation Measurements from Planet’s Surface

Scientists using the Radiation Assessment Detector (RAD) aboard the Mars Science Laboratory’s Curiosity rover have made detailed measurements of the absorbed dose and dose equivalent from galactic cosmic rays and solar energetic particles on the surface of the Red Planet.
Two forms of radiation pose potential health risks to astronauts: a chronic low dose of galactic cosmic rays (GCRs) and the possibility of short-term exposures to the solar energetic particles (SEPs) associated with solar flares and coronal mass ejections.

How much radiation will the settlers be exposed to?

Some how I think you are looking at the secondary sources from the others and they have changed the soil.

jfenciso · 2018-10-28 12:14:27

Thank you for sharing this image. That's what I worry such as the nuclear radiation contaminated in the soil. That is the reason, why I disagree with the utilization of Martian soil for Martian agriculture at first phase of human colonization. Planting a crop in the high radiation-Martian soil could affect the physiology of the crop and contamination of the grains or food also which will increase the risk of human health. That is the reason why NASA focused on studying a hydroponics and LED.

jfenciso · 2018-10-28 12:48:00

Why do we need to study the nutrient management in Mars?

Remember:
Liebig's Law of the Minimum states that yield is proportional to the amount of the most limiting nutrient, whichever nutrient it may be. From this, it may be inferred that if the deficient nutrient is supplied, yields may be improved to the point that some other nutrient is needed in greater quantity than the soil can provide, and the Law of the Minimum would apply in turn to that nutrient.

This law will apply in Martian agriculture.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-28 16:18:16

I do think that the nucleonic decontanimation will not be all that difficult as we are doing so here on earth.

https://www.mphonline.org/how-to-decont … vironment/

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/WR-Fr … 04184.html

https://emergency.cdc.gov/radiation/selfdecon_wash.asp

https://www.remm.nlm.gov/ext_contamination.htm

jfenciso · 2018-10-28 17:55:24

I hope this could work in decontaminating the secondary radiation in Martian soil.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3047434A/en

Last edited by jfenciso (2018-10-28 17:57:56)

RobertDyck · 2018-10-28 18:27:10

You realize gamma rays, UV, X-rays, and cosmic rays are non-infectious. They don't transmute elements into radioactive isotopes. Even proton radiation, which is the primary radiation from the Sun, is non-infectious. Only neutron radiation can transmute elements into radioactive isotopes, and high speed neutrons cannot be captured. Only moderated neutrons can do that. And there's very little of that.

Earth has natural background radiation. Do you seriously believe Mars soil will be more radioactive than Earth?

SpaceNut · 2018-10-28 19:00:55

water, should not be to hard to obtain

Slightly harder but we could ship what we would need.
ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, C₁₀H₁₆N₂O₈ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylened … cetic_acid it interacts with heavy metals

These are doable with mars insitu:
sodium sulfate, inorganic compound with formula Na2SO4

sodium hydroxide, also known as lye and caustic soda, is an inorganic compound with the formula NaOH.

manganese dioxide, another inorganic compound with the formula MnO₂.

jfenciso · 2018-10-29 05:05:57

RobertDyck wrote:

You realize gamma rays, UV, X-rays, and cosmic rays are non-infectious.

I never said that gamma rays are non-infectious. What I mean was space radiation is detrimental to settler's health. If you will collect Martian regolith and bring it inside the colony for planting, the regolith will emit a radiation. We should minimize the health risk of the settlers because of radiation. Cosmic rays and gamma rays have a high energy which can damage the DNA. Once the DNA was damaged in the particular tissue, the normal tissue will turn into cancerous tissue. There is no treatment for cancer in Mars. We should avoid the health risk for the future Martian settlers.

It is a challenge for the engineers to make a suit which protects the settlers in space radiation like cosmic rays.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-04 21:38:30

To grow properly, plants need water, light and air / co2. They also need nutrients from the soil, including nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus. All of these are important – but phosphorus especially, because it affects the plant early in its life. The plant needs it to build its root system, which is the basis for taking up other nutrients. Without enough phosphorus, plants are stunted and yield little.

tahanson43206 · 2019-02-05 08:10:24

For SpaceNut .... #14 above ...

I expect you know this, but for new readers of the forum who might still be learning about DNA, I'd like to point out that Phosphorus is one of five elements which make up DNA sequences.

I asked Google to show the elements which make up DNA, and got this:

What are the elements that make up DNA?
...
oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, carbon, phosphorus. five elements that make up DNA.

I would deduce that a deficiency of any of these elements would limit the ability of a plant to create new cells.

In other words, it would appear (to me at least) that every cell in a plant based on DNA needs enough phosphorous to duplicate its DNA in order to split.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-02-05 18:12:28

Just as important are what we call micronutrients for life... Plant-based foods, including fruit, vegetables, legumes, whole grains, and nuts, are prominent features of healthy dietary patterns. In addition to providing energy and essential micronutrients, plant-based foods contribute thousands of biologically active phytochemicals (plant chemicals that may affect health) to the human diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronutrient

We all know the nutrients — nitrogen, phosphorous, but these are what we typically forget in that we need potassium, magnesium, calcium, sulfur — that are important for plants. These micronutrients — boron, iron, zinc and others — not only assure healthy growth, they help your gardens fight off pests and diseases.

louis · 2019-02-05 18:31:00

No way will there be any closed hab on the Mars surface. Stuff will come in and stuff will go out. Even gases will be vented.

Terraformer · 2019-02-06 03:17:08

Especially if the settlement is growing. We'll be needing to add more nutrients to grow extra food for the new people.

RobertDyck · 2019-02-06 10:46:28

jfenciso wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
You realize gamma rays, UV, X-rays, and cosmic rays are non-infectious.
I never said that gamma rays are non-infectious. What I mean was space radiation is detrimental to settler's health. If you will collect Martian regolith and bring it inside the colony for planting, the regolith will emit a radiation. ... Cosmic rays and gamma rays have a high energy which can damage the DNA. ...
It is a challenge for the engineers to make a suit which protects the settlers in space radiation like cosmic rays.

I left this, but I'll respond now. This person obviously doesn't what "non-infectious" means regarding radiation. It means that something exposed to this type of radiation will no itself become radioactive. Gamma rays are extremely high energy electromagnetic radiation, the same thing as light but higher energy than X-rays. X-rays are too, just higher energy than ultraviolet (UV) and less than gamma. These types of radiation require high energy nuclear events to make them. Soil will not become radioactive simply by being exposed to gamma rays, UV, or X-rays.

Cosmic rays are high speed charged particles, basically atoms stripped of their electrons and moving at high speed. Scientists believe that when cosmic rays enter our solar system, they are not much higher energy than particle radiation from our Sun. But as they fall toward our Sun, the magnetic field of our Sun accelerates them. By the time cosmic rays enter the inner solar system (Earth, Mars, etc) they're traveling very fast. Heavy ion cosmic rays are the nastiest, because they're heaviest and therefor carry the most momentum. Heavy ions are nasty because light shielding can actually make them worse. When a high speed heavy ion hits a large atom, it could split the atom of the shielding, or more likely the heavy ion could split. This would break a singe fast moving particle into many smaller lighter medium speed particles. Each particle would have less energy, but more particles means more tracks through your body. That means more of your cells get damaged. Think of it as converting a high caliber bullet into a shotgun blast. Shielding a spacecraft from that type of radiation requires something that gently slows the heavy ion without breaking it. That requires a large shield of some sort, ideal is a tank of liquid hydrogen. Second best is a tank of water, because water has a lot of hydrogen (H2O). Third is plastic such as polyethylene or polypropylene. Those plastics also contain a lot of hydrogen, they're polymers with the basic formula H2C repeated many times. But radiation will cause rapid degradation of the plastic. Good news is the atmosphere of Mars is ideal shielding against heavy ion cosmic radiation. Report published by the MARIE instrument team, flown on Mars Odyssey, calculated surface radiation on Mars. A high altitude location like Meridiani Planum where Opportunity landed would block 90% of heavy ion cosmic radiation, while a low altitude location would have more atmosphere, so Gale Crater where Curiosity landed would block 98%. Of course if you climb the hill that Curiosity climbed, then again there's less atmosphere overhead so more radiation gets through. Elysium Planetia is also low altitude, so again 98% blocked.

Mars atmosphere isn't as effective at blocking light ions. Almost all proton radiation from the Sun gets through. Most light ion radiation gets through, and about half of medium ion radiation. But that type of radiation is effectively blocked by regolith, aka Mars dirt.

Bottom line: Mars dirt is not radioactive. In terms of radiation, the word "non-infectious" means these types of radiation to not make things radioactive. Neutron radiation makes things radioactive. Nuclear reactors and nuclear bombs produce a great deal of neutron radiation. Space doesn't have neutron radiation, because a free neutron will decay into a proton and electron after just minutes. Neutron radiation from stars will decay to proton and beta radiation long before it enters our solar system. Proton and beta radiation are non-infectious. Nuclear reactions in our Sun occur deep in the core, not the surface. The vast bulk of the Sun shields us from that neutron radiation. The Sun emits lots and lots of proton radiation, a tiny bit of light ion radiation, and lots of light, IR, UV, etc. Some gamma rays. But no neutron radiation. I don't think neutron radiation would survive the trip from the Sun to Earth anyway, it would decay, but I'm told the Sun doesn't emit neutron radiation.

Designing a spacesuit is tricky, but you can't protect against gamma or cosmic rays. Doing so would mean you're suit is a cement mixer. Forget walking in a suit that masses tonnes. A spacesuit can protect against UV, beta, alpha, and even the weak X-rays that exist in space. X-rays in space are so weak that aluminum foil is enough, so multi-layer thermal protection will also block X-rays. But gamma and cosmic rays are just too strong, they'll pass through anything that a spacesuit could be made from. But luckily the atmosphere of Mars blocks most cosmic rays.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-02-06 22:23:51)

RobertDyck · 2019-02-06 10:47:42

SpaceNut wrote:

ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, C₁₀H₁₆N₂O₈ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylened … cetic_acid
...
manganese dioxide ... MnO₂.

Subscripts! How did you do subscripts?

JoshNH4H · 2019-02-06 14:59:26

In this case it seems like they copy-pasted from Wikipedia or MS Office or something.

You used to be able to make subscripts by using a smaller font size but that doesn't seem to work anymore.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-06 17:57:29

Josh is correct as its a copy paste and posted from either Opera or Firefox as I do not remember as explore 8 does not show the subscript only as illegal text ....

Void · 2019-06-01 13:50:50

I guess this might be OK here.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkobaya … 4380ac5cc6
They intend to GMO bacteria, that are not Nitrogen fixing, so that they will be Nitrogen fixing. The intention is that then the bacteria that are hosted in plants that do not host existing Nitrogen fixing bacteria, will then host GMO bacteria that do.
They hope to do it in about 5 to 6 years.

If they do, I would suppose that it would be something to take to Mars. A shortcut. Every shortcut will count on Mars. Mars is going to be super hard in any case.
……

I guess an important side point in the article is that Nitrous Oxide is 300 times as potent a greenhouse gas as CO2.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-06-01 13:54:51)

knightdepaix · 2019-06-03 10:59:05

jfenciso wrote:

The worries for me in Martian soil is the radiation and perchlorates.

IanM wrote:

in Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on MarsThe reaction that the LiveScience article you provided seems to imply this overall reaction for perchlorates:
3ClO4- + S2^2- --> 2SO4^2- + 3Cl- + 2O2
There's plenty of sulfate in the Martian regolith as is, and the article states that sulfate is also used as a fuel, so that might be a bonus. I don't see any carbon in this equation so it might not quite be the best for food supply (although sufficient nutrients might be previously in place so that the colony can grow), although they might seem to also be a good source of Oxygen despite being anaerobic.

Plus, the reduced chloride ion product can be taken into bacterial cytoplasm using light energy. The sulfur or sulfide content can come from the residue of mining.

The following is my imagination:
Step1) mining minerals on Mars generates metals sulfides.
2) sulfides become oxides and sulfur substituted oxoacid salts (for example, tetrathiomolybdate, thiosulfate, trithioarsenate).
3) Those salts and perchlorate are foods for bacterial oxidation and chloride and sulfate metabolic products are collected. Radiations in terms of electromagnetic ones can be collected and used for their energy or upconverted to suitable wavelength before use.
4) Collected chloride and sulfate oxidation products are plant nutrients themselves or suitable metal cations are substituted in. For example, how about swapping potassium ion out of minerals?

SpaceNut · 2020-12-17 19:13:50

This was not the topic but its the one which fits why we would do this....

Fertilizer made from urine could enable space agriculture

Realizing that farmers have used animal waste as fertilizer for thousands of years, as a rich source of nitrogen, Dr. Suzuki and his team have been investigating the possibility of manufacturing it from urea (the main component of urine), to make a liquid fertilizer. This would also simultaneously address the problem of human waste treatment or management in space! As Dr. Suzuki explains, "This process is of interest from the perspective of making a useful product, i.e., ammonia, from a waste product, i.e., urine, using common equipment at atmospheric pressure and room temperature."
The research team - which also includes Akihiro Okazaki, Kai Takagi, and Izumi Serizawa from ORC Manufacturing Co. Ltd., Japan - devised an "electrochemical" process to derive ammonium ions (commonly found in standard fertilizers) from an artificial urine sample.
Their experimental setup was simple: on one side, there was a "reaction" cell, with a "boron-doped diamond" (BDD) electrode and a light-inducible catalyst or "photocatalyst" material made of titanium dioxide. On the other, there was a "counter" cell with a simple platinum electrode. As current is passed into the reaction cell, urea is oxidized, forming ammonium ions.
Dr. Suzuki describes this breakthrough as follows, "I joined the 'Space Agriteam' involved in food production, and my research specialization is in physical chemistry; therefore, I came up with the idea of 'electrochemically' making a liquid fertilizer."
The research team then examined whether the cell would be more efficient in the presence of the photocatalyst, by comparing the reaction of the cell with and without it. They found that while the initial depletion of urea was more or less the same, the nitrogen-based ions produced varied both in time and distribution when the photocatalyst was introduced. Notably, the concentration of nitrite and nitrate ions was not as elevated in the presence of the photocatalyst. This suggests that the presence of the photocatalyst promoted ammonium ion formation.
Dr. Suzuki states, "We are planning to perform the experiment with actual urine samples, because it contains not only primary elements (phosphorus, nitrogen, potassium) but also secondary elements (sulfur, calcium, magnesium) that are vital for plant nutrition! Therefore, Dr. Suzuki and his team are optimistic that this method provides a solid basis for the manufacture of liquid fertilizer in enclosed spaces, and, as. Dr. Suzuki observes, "It will turn out to be useful for sustaining long-term stay in extremely closed spaces such as space stations."

https://dx.doi.org/10.1039/d0nj03347b

https://www.tus.ac.jp/en/
Tokyo University Of Science

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#1 2018-10-27 14:14:02

Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#2 2018-10-27 14:29:16

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#3 2018-10-27 14:48:44

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#4 2018-10-27 15:52:19

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#5 2018-10-27 23:58:36

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#6 2018-10-28 10:50:02

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#7 2018-10-28 12:14:27

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#8 2018-10-28 12:48:00

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#9 2018-10-28 16:18:16

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#10 2018-10-28 17:55:24

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#11 2018-10-28 18:27:10

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#12 2018-10-28 19:00:55

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#13 2018-10-29 05:05:57

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#14 2019-02-04 21:38:30

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#15 2019-02-05 08:10:24

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#16 2019-02-05 18:12:28

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#17 2019-02-05 18:31:00

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#18 2019-02-06 03:17:08

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#19 2019-02-06 10:46:28

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#20 2019-02-06 10:47:42

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#21 2019-02-06 14:59:26

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#22 2019-02-06 17:57:29

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#23 2019-06-01 13:50:50

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#24 2019-06-03 10:59:05

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

#25 2020-12-17 19:13:50

Re: Nutrient Management in Closed system for Martian Greenhouse

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