Vaccinate Your Children!

kbd512 · 2019-01-31 18:24:51

To all the concerned, but obstinate, parents out there asking how they can protect their unvaccinated children from communicable diseases such as the measles, there's a very simple answer:

AND THERE IT IS ---> VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN <--- IT'S THIS!

Microorganisms do not care at all about your religious beliefs, what color skin you have, where you're from, how good or bad a person you may or may not be, how much money you do or don't have, nor what some Hollyweird celebrity told you on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook. If you're going to get your information about vaccines from someone, then they'd better be a specialist with knowledge about infectious diseases and autism.

So far as I know, there have been precisely zero studies, demonstrating any definitive link between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders. The purported link between vaccination and autism has been studied, ad nauseam, by the CDC, by universities (the world over), by pharmaceuticals manufacturing companies (who would be sued out of existence if they were lying after they were shut down by the FDA), and by independent researchers. If there is any evidence to link vaccines with autism, then pretty much every medical researcher on the planet has missed it. There is no conspiracy to make your children autistic. We've been looking for a link and can't find it because there isn't any link to be found. Stop listening to paranoid ranting lunatics on YouTube videos and start using some fundamental common sense to save the lives of your own children from early deaths that are entirely preventable, thanks to modern medicine. Even autistic children know that their parents love them. The dead know nothing at all.

YOUR CHILD CAN'T LIVE TO SOMEHOW DEVELOP AUTISM FROM VACCINATIONS IF HE OR SHE DIES FROM A COMMUNICABLE DISEASE FIRST! MODERN MEDICINE HAS STARTED TO DEVELOP MEANS TO TREAT AND EVEN REVERSE AUTISM. WHAT'S WORSE, AN INFINITESIMALLY SMALL CHANCE THAT YOUR CHILD BECOMES AUTISTIC FROM A VACCINE OR WATCHING YOUR CHILD DIE FROM A DISEASE THAT YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED WITH A STROKE OF YOUR PEN? ONE POTENTIAL RESULT CAN BE CORRECTED, BUT THE OTHER CANNOT. THERE IS NO MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR DEATH!

SpaceNut · 2019-01-31 18:29:39

The same goes for Chickenpox, mumps, and so many more including cancer and menigitus...

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/vaccines-list.html

louis · 2019-01-31 19:43:39

So why has there been such a huge rise in asthma and allergies that cause so many deaths in children in recent decades?

Or are only some deaths of children of interest to you?

And of the children who now die as a result of such diseases as measles in the modern era in advanced industrial societies what proportion have compromised immune systems as a result of such things as chemotherapy or diseases like leukemia?

For the avoidance of doubt: I am not arguing against vaccination...but I am arguing for a rational debate about the cost-benefit analysis of vaccination. You can only begin to have a rational debate when you accept that Big Pharma has a huge financial interest in ever-expanding vaccination and ignoring any evidence of a medical downside to that approach.

kbd512 wrote:

To all the concerned, but obstinate, parents out there asking how they can protect their unvaccinated children from communicable diseases such as the measles, there's a very simple answer:
AND THERE IT IS ---> VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN <--- IT'S THIS!
Microorganisms do not care at all about your religious beliefs, what color skin you have, where you're from, how good or bad a person you may or may not be, how much money you do or don't have, nor what some Hollyweird celebrity told you on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook. If you're going to get your information about vaccines from someone, then they'd better be a specialist with knowledge about infectious diseases and autism.
So far as I know, there have been precisely zero studies, demonstrating any definitive link between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders. The purported link between vaccination and autism has been studied, ad nauseam, by the CDC, by universities (the world over), by pharmaceuticals manufacturing companies (who would be sued out of existence if they were lying after they were shut down by the FDA), and by independent researchers. If there is any evidence to link vaccines with autism, then pretty much every medical researcher on the planet has missed it. There is no conspiracy to make your children autistic. We've been looking for a link and can't find it because there isn't any link to be found. Stop listening to paranoid ranting lunatics on YouTube videos and start using some fundamental common sense to save the lives of your own children from early deaths that are entirely preventable, thanks to modern medicine. Even autistic children know that their parents love them. The dead know nothing at all.
YOUR CHILD CAN'T LIVE TO SOMEHOW DEVELOP AUTISM FROM VACCINATIONS IF HE OR SHE DIES FROM A COMMUNICABLE DISEASE FIRST! MODERN MEDICINE HAS STARTED TO DEVELOP MEANS TO TREAT AND EVEN REVERSE AUTISM. WHAT'S WORSE, AN INFINITESIMALLY SMALL CHANCE THAT YOUR CHILD BECOMES AUTISTIC FROM A VACCINE OR WATCHING YOUR CHILD DIE FROM A DISEASE THAT YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED WITH A STROKE OF YOUR PEN? ONE POTENTIAL RESULT CAN BE CORRECTED, BUT THE OTHER CANNOT. THERE IS NO MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR DEATH!

GW Johnson · 2019-01-31 21:53:07

I second kbd512 and spacenut!

The only "report" that ever claimed a link between autism and any kind of vaccines, was long ago discredited quite thoroughly, retracted, and its author eventually lost his medical license because of his false publication. And rightly so. He caused only harm.

Louis, the recent rise in allergies seems to trace to parents keeping their kids "too clean" while infants. It's not yet "final", but the research is already rather clear: very early exposure to potential allergens prompts the right immune response. If delayed, the response is wrong: more allergies than simple immunities.

In other words, let the babies play in the yard outside, and eat and breathe the dirt. As much of the day as is possible. As they did since long before we were even genus homo. If vaccinated, getting dirty won't hurt them, it will help them.

There is no problem to worry about with chemo or compromised immune systems. The exceptions to vaccination are for them. They are a tiny fraction, tinier than Louis apparently thinks. For vaccination to provide "herd immunity", the vaccination rate must exceed about 95%. There's plenty of room for the worthy exceptions.

The problem is abusing the exceptions for other reasons. Belief systems, whether political or religious, cannot (and should not ever) trump the science on this. That mistake is why we are having measles outbreaks of late: too many idiots claiming religious or political exceptions.

As for misbehaving corporations, that really doesn't show up as some plot to damage the public health, it shows up as simple and egregious greed: overpricing. They know they can often get away with overpricing, since we and our lawmakers are negligent policing them. Damaging the public health gets them destroyed, sooner or layer.

No cost-benefit debate is needed. We already know the answer, and we have known it since Jenner developed the first smallpox vaccine. Vaccinations work. Without them, people die needlessly. Period.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-01-31 22:08:04)

RobertDyck · 2019-02-01 03:28:11

GW Johnson wrote:

The only "report" that ever claimed a link between autism and any kind of vaccines, was long ago discredited quite thoroughly, retracted, and its author eventually lost his medical license because of his false publication. And rightly so. He caused only harm.

Repeating that causes harm. The doctor who published this made a serious scientific study. He found real scientific results. He was attacked by corporate lawyers, working for a corporation who did not want to be accountable for their product. Lawyers coerced him into writing a retraction just to keep his medical license, then took his medical license anyway.

Separate research results from different doctors. One researcher studied a toxin injected into laboratory mice. It caused symptoms identical to autism. When the toxin was stopped, mice took 2 to 3 days to remove the toxin from their bodies. Once the toxin was gone, they recovered, behaved normally. The toxin is produced as a waste product by a species of bacteria. The bacteria is very difficult to kill, it produces spores. Any antibiotic that can kill the bacteria, will not kill the spores. So the spores hatch, re-infecting the subject.

Based on this research, another group conducted human trials. They provided massive doses of Vancomycin. This is a very expensive antibiotic, reserved for multi-drug resistant bacteria. It worked, the autistic children became very high functioning. It didn't completely cure autism, but enough that they could conduct normal lives. But they had to take a fistful of pills every morning with breakfast. And treating an infection like that, but never curing the infection, is exactly how you breed a resistant strain. Vancomycin is reserved as a last resort, specifically so that no disease develops resistance to it. But this protocol is exactly how to make the disease resistant. So there's no way any doctor would prescribe this as a clinical treatment.

Yes, there has been this much progress with autism. They still don't know why there appears to be a genetic component to autism. But they have made serious progress.

The original published report found evidence that one batch of one vaccine in the UK, only available through the UK national health system. That means only available to citizens of the UK who were residents of the UK at the time. There's no way an American could be exposed. So no way any American could get it.

It's important to be honest when a contaminated batch gets out. Trying to cover it up just makes people paranoid. The tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists will blow up an isolated problem to sound like it's a worldwide malicious deliberate threat. And if manufacturers are not held to account, the problem could happen again. Contamination of vaccine with a bacterium that has no effective antibiotic! That is very serious.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-02-01 08:19:44)

louis · 2019-02-01 04:50:49

There are plenty of examples where the vaccine lobby have had to admit the link between their product and very serious medical conditions. Here's one: Narcolepsy Following Pandemrix Influenza Vaccination in Europe.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/conce … y-flu.html

The truth is we don't know enough about the causal effects. If you've got a vaccine and it only affects 5 children in 10,000.

From what I can see, there has been a huge rise in autism - way beyond a more liberal diagnosis approach. We seem to have no idea what is causing it.

The "cleanliness" hypothesis is probably partly true but it does not preclude the possibility that children's immune systems are also being weakened because they are not being as stressed by childhood diseases.

IanM · 2019-02-01 09:55:54

It's also worth noting that vaccination can help reduce population-wide antibiotic resistance by limiting the ability of pathogens to infect and develop resistance in the first place. The autism link has been thoroughly debunked to the best of my knowledge, and although I have yet to look into the other effects louis provides and there are a few with contraindications I still believe that vaccination is a good thing (and should be required for those travelling to Mars).

louis · 2019-02-01 17:53:41

I think this is an interesting area for further research: the aluminium link between autism and vaccination...

https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/4/1 … tional2018

Last edited by louis (2019-02-01 17:56:19)

SpaceNut · 2019-02-01 18:11:50

I gut feeling on the vacinations for early childhood comes from my childrens which I have both normal / autistic that did improve with early intervention education and lots of sports exercise in youth clubs. Since we got both from the same shot types for all then the only thing remaining is the genetic make up and the timing of the shots them self or the combinations that were given at a single time which could exaserbate the conditions flare up of autism...

SpaceNut · 2019-02-02 19:47:45

Here is another reason to fix some of the other problems within our nation as Immigration concerns keep some parents from getting their kids health services

The report shows that after years of steady decline, the number (and percentage) of uninsured children in the U.S. increased in 2017, the first year of Trump’s presidency. Nationally, 5 percent of all kids are uninsured — and in Texas the rate rose to 10.7 percent, up from 9.8 percent in 2016.

Cost I am sure was the factor for what you get in benefits for not using it unless you really need to as colds, virus, flu are really things that going for medicare for the most part does not do anything for you...

SpaceNut · 2019-02-09 17:42:38

The recent out break of measels have our Congress thinking about a bill... Washington lawmakers heard testimony Friday on a bill number, HB 1638 Amid a measles outbreak that has sickened more than 50 people in the Pacific Northwest,

IanM · 2019-02-09 19:47:55

That bill is for the Washington State Legislature, not the US Congress. That said, I do think such a law is generally a good idea, in Chicago you have to be vaccinated to be in public schools.

louis · 2019-02-09 20:24:07

Sickened? Er yes, that's what happens with childhood diseases - you get sick...

Any children died from asthma or food allergies in Washington State recently? I bet they have.

SpaceNut wrote:

The recent out break of measels have our Congress thinking about a bill... Washington lawmakers heard testimony Friday on a bill number, HB 1638 Amid a measles outbreak that has sickened more than 50 people in the Pacific Northwest,

SpaceNut · 2019-02-09 20:33:50

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/m … ideset.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/environment … ion-crisis

Each day 11 Americans die from asthma. There are more than 4,000 deaths due to asthma each year, many of which are avoidable with proper treatment and care.

CDC press office revealed that the number of deaths from food allergies, as collected from 2.5 million death certificates across the country, is miniscule. Only eleven people died from food allergies in 2005, the last year for which we have data available.
https://www.cdc.gov/healthyschools/food … /index.htm

GW Johnson · 2019-02-10 12:09:50

I can't say there haven't been bad batches of vaccine, because there have been. Greedy corporations will do evil for profit, unless called to account for it, and with significant punishment. My observation is that giant-corporate CEO's have crummier ethics than common street criminals, generally speaking. They MUST be constrained by enforced rules for fair play. Millennia of history prove that, about the rich-and-powerful.

That being said, by-and-large, with proper rules enforced, the vaccines do good for the vast majority of people. You get the dramatic benefits of the so-called "herd immunity" with 90-95% of people vaccinated. Do that around the planet, and you can eradicate the offending disease.

But if you allow too many exceptions, you do not get "herd immunity", and you cannot ever eradicate the disease. Which is why all the religious and philosophical/political exceptions are nonsense. The recent outbreaks of measles and mumps prove that, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What you do instead is make the proper rules and enforce them, so that there are no bad batches of your otherwise-mandatory vaccines. If the elected officials fail to do that, you apply "grassroots term limits" and elect somebody else instead. Performance is far more important than party and politics.

Simple as that. And just as hard to do.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-02-10 12:15:01)

kbd512 · 2019-02-10 14:27:54

We don't need exceptions for religion. People may believe that they're toasters, but that doesn't make them toasters. If you're part of a society, then you live by the rules of that society. After proper testing, a society that wishes to protect its members from debilitating diseases should mandate vaccinations for known diseases. Only medical conditions that would preclude the effectiveness of the vaccination or further damage a particular person's body are valid reasons not to vaccinate.

Lastly, America is most definitely not an "anything goes" society. We have rules for everything. We have so many rules because we can't seem to legislate common sense. Common sense says if there's a simple, cheap, unbelievably effective, and nearly painless way to prevent a painful and ugly death prior to even reaching adulthood, that we smile, thank our doctors for saving the lives of our children, and move on with the rest of our lives.

louis · 2019-02-10 16:32:44

So you don't think dying from asthma or anaphylactic shock is a "painful and ugly" death?

What we need is a rational debate about vaccination. That requires:

1. Accepting that it is still our immune systems that essentially keep us alive - given all the multipilicity of pathogens around us - not medicine or vaccination. Without a robust immune system we are susceptible to deadly infections.

2. Accepting that vaccination - especially multiple vaccination - must have some effect on the developing immune system. One can argue about the effect, but it is absurd to argue there is no long lasting effect.

3. Accepting that most people in advanced industrial societies who die from childhood diseases like measles or chicken pox already have hugely compromised immune systems (e.g. children who are suffering from leukemia, especially after therapy).

4. Accepting that, unlike in previous eras, modern medicine can keep otherwise healthy children alive who have childhood diseases. The idea that we would ever see the death rates experienced in say the 1930s again if we were to abandon mass vaccination is really not credible. I am not arguing that we abandon mass vaccination, but I am arguing that the previous rationale (huge numbers of death and disability) does not exist.

5. Accepting (contra GW) that vaccines can harm receivers even with no bad faith on the part of the manufacturers.

6. Accepting there has been a huge rise in asthma, extreme allergies and autism in advanced industrial countries that have mass vaccination programmes. Whether there is any link remains to be seen. But we should accept these diseases are a huge health crisis. So the idea we have entered on a golden age of health is, I think, rather hubristic. Incidentally there are many other areas of disease in modern society - mental health crises, IBS and similar digestive disorders.

kbd512 wrote:

We don't need exceptions for religion. People may believe that they're toasters, but that doesn't make them toasters. If you're part of a society, then you live by the rules of that society. After proper testing, a society that wishes to protect its members from debilitating diseases should mandate vaccinations for known diseases. Only medical conditions that would preclude the effectiveness of the vaccination or further damage a particular person's body are valid reasons not to vaccinate.
Lastly, America is most definitely not an "anything goes" society. We have rules for everything. We have so many rules because we can't seem to legislate common sense. Common sense says if there's a simple, cheap, unbelievably effective, and nearly painless way to prevent a painful and ugly death prior to even reaching adulthood, that we smile, thank our doctors for saving the lives of our children, and move on with the rest of our lives.

kbd512 · 2019-02-10 17:37:04

Louis,

I already stated that vaccinations shouldn't be administered if the vaccine would injure the person it's being administered to.

1. The vaccinations provide assistance to the immune system to help it recognize pathogens and attack them.

2. The effect of vaccinations is to augment immune system response to pathogens that would otherwise cripple or kill someone.

3. Again, I already indicated that medically-necessary exceptions should be made.

4. Sorry, but the infant and child mortality rates from communicable diseases in the third world directly contradicts this assertion.

5. Current vaccinations do infinitely more good than harm. I'm sure there is someone, somewhere out there, who would die from being injected with their own blood. Unfortunately, those people are not long for this world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent everyone else from dying from a disease that would also kill the one person who might die from the vaccine.

6. We have searched high and low for a connection between certain vaccinations and autism, but we can't find any. Here's a thought. Waiting until you're in your mid-30's to start having children may not be conducive to good outcomes for your children. A woman's embryos aren't viable into perpetuity. DNA breaks down over time and we haven't found a good way to significantly slow or reverse that process. All other things being equal, which they never are, having children while you're young and strong and in comparatively good health is the best way to ensure you have healthier children. Furthermore, all the other health problems that mothers and fathers have from poor dietary and exercise regimens don't help. Being 100 pounds overweight affects a lot more than just how well you can get away from lions, tigers, and bears. Environment also affects things in too many ways to list.

You want perfection, as it relates to decisions about what is medically necessary. Humans are imperfect. Humans died by the millions from diseases that vaccinations and antibiotics prevent, prior to the advent of modern medicine. Now you want to revert back to how things were done before. I'm not onboard with that.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-10 18:00:36

Louis are you saying that a vacine will cause asthma or anaphylactic shock and when does it manifest or was it already there?

I could see the anaphylactic shock as a result of an alergy but GW called that already and it should be safe after proper testing.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-11 20:20:15

Link posted for the lack of vacination.
Here is another Mumps cases confirmed at ICE facility in Houston

Mumps can be prevented with two doses of measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine. Children should receive the first dose at 12 to 15 months of age, and the second dose at 4 through 6 years of age. Two doses of the vaccine are 97 percent effective.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-26 17:16:49

The idea that getting infectious diseases helps one acquire “natural” immunity as opposed to the “unnatural immunity” provided by vaccines is a pernicious lie. People with no medical training were spreading fake and repudiated science claiming that vaccines were bad for us. In the beginning, many of these "anti-vaxxers" claimed that vaccines caused autism. When immunization rates fall below a certain level — between 93 percent and 95 percent for measles — the vulnerable are at much higher risk.

Anti-vaxxers face backlash as measles cases surge

Clark County measles outbreak adds exposure site, stays at 62 cases

elderflower · 2019-02-27 04:13:48

Measles is dangerous at any time. Mumps also but particularly in adult males. Rubella is not generally so dangerous except where the patient is pregnant when it can lead to abnormal foetal development. All three can have severe complications. You can acquire natural immunity by getting the disease (we used to have things called chicken pox parties for toddlers and infants) but you expose yourself to substantial risks. Your parents, if they don't vaccinate you, put you, their children, and their unborn grandchildren at risk from these diseases. Why would any parent do this? It's totally irrational.

louis · 2019-02-27 08:37:10

(a) Is your claim there is no risk associated with any vaccination? If not, what do you claim the risks are? If it is, how do you expect anyone to take your argument seriously?

(b) You seem to be living in the past referencing vaccination for long essentially childhood diseases which used to cause numerous deaths when medical care was basic and intensive care was essentially unknown. You do, I presume realise, he big pharma companies wish us to become vaccine dependent with respect to a huge range of diseases.

(c) How do you explain, or explain away, the huge rise in deaths in young people from food allergies and asthma or the incidence of autism and other developmental diseases?

elderflower wrote:

Measles is dangerous at any time. Mumps also but particularly in adult males. Rubella is not generally so dangerous except where the patient is pregnant when it can lead to abnormal foetal development. All three can have severe complications. You can acquire natural immunity by getting the disease (we used to have things called chicken pox parties for toddlers and infants) but you expose yourself to substantial risks. Your parents, if they don't vaccinate you, put you, their children, and their unborn grandchildren at risk from these diseases. Why would any parent do this? It's totally irrational.

elderflower · 2019-02-27 11:46:44

Food allergies, Asthma, Autism and any number of other conditions have NOT been shown to be associated with Vaccination. The alleged association of Autism with vaccination has been debunked.
Of course there are risks associated with vaccination but they are not large compared to the risks of the diseases.
Big pharma is big business like big oil, big manufacturing, big agriculture. It requires exceptional investment over many years before its product is brought into use and can start to show a profit, longer periods than most industries due to the very tight regulation to which it is subjected. That tight regulation is what keeps the idea of a dependent population in the realms of fantasy. Big pharma is not a mob run cocaine operation, which is what you describe. It's not perfect but it isn't bad right through.
I don't have an explanation for auto-immune disease- I wish I did. On the other hand I don't believe unsupported claims by some folks that they do know . Its a work in progress.

louis · 2019-02-27 16:00:04

elderflower wrote:

Food allergies, Asthma, Autism and any number of other conditions have NOT been shown to be associated with Vaccination. The alleged association of Autism with vaccination has been debunked.

Many medical professionals do claim that too-hygienic living environments result in the immune system not being "exercised" (my term) sufficiently and so leading children vulnerable to the life-threatening conditions of asthma and food allergies. I can't see any logical reason (as opposed to fear of social opprobrium) why vaccinations wouldn't also contribute to that "hygienic" environment by preventing full exposure to childhood diseases. That doesn't mean we should abandon vaccination. It just means we should have a rational, as opposed to an emotive, debate about it.

Of course there are risks associated with vaccination but they are not large compared to the risks of the diseases.

So you claim. But as more and more vaccines are produced for less dangerous diseases is that true? Is the risk of swine flu really worse than the risk of narcolepsy? And how on earth was such a (brain) condition produced by an allegedly "safe" vaccine. If we don't know how, then how on earth can we say vaccines "don't" cause autism.

https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources … narcolepsy

There is this study which provides a hypothesis involving genetic predisposition...

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-m … arcolepsy/

Can we really be sure something similar hasn't been happening with autism. It's one thing paying compensation to a few individuals - quite another paying possible tens of billions of dollars of compensation to hundreds of thousands affected by autism.

Big pharma is big business like big oil, big manufacturing, big agriculture. It requires exceptional investment over many years before its product is brought into use and can start to show a profit, longer periods than most industries due to the very tight regulation to which it is subjected. That tight regulation is what keeps the idea of a dependent population in the realms of fantasy. Big pharma is not a mob run cocaine operation, which is what you describe. It's not perfect but it isn't bad right through.
I don't have an explanation for auto-immune disease- I wish I did. On the other hand I don't believe unsupported claims by some folks that they do know . Its a work in progress.

I'm not saying Big Pharma is "bad". I am saying they have financial interests and act on those.

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