New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#26 2017-10-20 09:57:28

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: The Moon

Here's a strange off the wall thought: Could we ever get to the point of making an MCP suit that was easy / convenient enough for human beings to carry out most of their working tasks in it?  i.e. about as easy to put on and take off as any other piece of clothing?  If so, then we might reasonably spend much of our working time in vacuum.  The only air needed would be that we put into buildings, which would be optimised to get the most usable space per unit volume.

Offline

#27 2017-10-20 10:26:51

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: The Moon

If you had some kind of fabric that tightened automatically when a zipper was pulled (or something like that) you could probably make it pretty easy to take on and pull off, but you would also want it to be very safe and it's harder to figure out what would be necessary for that without lived experience in those suits


-Josh

Offline

#28 2017-10-20 20:30:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,382

Re: The Moon

Well while we are mining the inside chamber for man we can process the aluminum into the liner for the chamber and make it such that we can dehumidify the chamber as needed to keep it from dripping.

Offline

#29 2017-10-21 13:13:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,382

Re: The Moon

Newly-discovered lunar cave would be great for a moon base

Nothing quite captures the 2017 mood to leave Earth forever like dreaming about moon bases. Last month, space agencies from Russia and the US jointly announced plans to collaborate on such a satellite colony. But today's discovery might bring that vision closer to reality. Japan's space agency found a large cave underneath the lunar surface that seems like prime area for a human outpost.

Japan's Selenological and Engineering Explorer (Selene) probe discovered a 50-meter wide by 50-meter deep opening underneath the Marius Hills region using a radar system designed to peer underground. After more readings, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (Jaxa) surmised that the chasm was 50 km (31 miles) long by 100 meters wide, structurally sound and filled with rocks that might contain water. They theorize that it was a tube carved by lava during volcanic activity 3.5 billion years ago.

Lava tubes are well-suited for human settlements, Jaxa senior researcher Junichi Haruyama told The Guardian. The tubes "might be the best candidate sites for future lunar bases, because of their stable thermal conditions and potential to protect people and instruments from micrometeorites and cosmic ray radiation," Haruyama said. Their location underground also shields denizens from the surface's wild temperature swings and radiation from the sun's UV rays.

https://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Marius+Hills

Offline

#30 2018-07-27 22:40:47

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: The Moon

I just watch the movie Moon (which was excellent, by the way) and it got me thinking about the Moon.

Specifically, Terraforming.

This is something we've been talking about occasionally for a long while but which I want to give another whack at.

The Moon might be smaller than Earth, but it's still quite big.  Here's some comparisons:

The Moon is:

  • Twice as big as Russia

  • Four times bigger than the United States, Canada, or China (all are roughly the same size)

  • Eight times bigger than the European Union

  • Twelve times bigger than India

  • As big as the entire continents of Asia or Africa

  • 22 times bigger than Alaska, 54 times bigger than Texas, 90 times bigger than California, and 271 times bigger than New York State

  • 1/4 as big (in terms of surface area) as Mars

  • 1/12 as big (in terms of surface area) as Earth, including oceans

It's really big!  And it's close, too, which matters a whole lot.

Anyway, the question is what we can do to make it more habitable.  There was a thread a long while back about levels of terraforming (I can't seem to find it) but anyway even a bit of terraforming might help make the planet more inhabitable.

For comparison's sake, one full atmosphere of gas on the Moon would have a mass of about 2.4e18 kg. 

While there have been some recent discoveries of water on the Moon, there's not all that much compared to the amount you'd need for seas or an atmosphere.

I suppose the way to go about it would be to bombard the Moon with little chunks of ice from the Kuiper belt. Actually methane and ammonia would be better, probably, because they might react with the regolith and then release Nitrogen, Carbon, and water, and we need all of those.

I don't have too many original ideas but it would be great to be able to sail the Sea of Tranquility in the open air and look up and see the Earth shining in the sky at dusk.

Here's some artist renderings of a terraformed moon!

luna_terraformed_farside_by_ittiz-768x683.jpg
From Universe Today

terraformed_moon_by_aexlpls-dafptxi.jpg
By Axel-Astro-Art

2018-05-16_5afc8b1591f83_terraformed_moon-1200x1218.jpg
By Steve Hobbs

moon-png.33104
By the user Nymain1


-Josh

Offline

#31 2018-12-09 19:15:35

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 225

Re: The Moon

Exchange of gases by vapor pressures?

Atmosphere of the Moon is very thin to the point of vacuum from the Earth point of view. Venus has an abundance of carbon dioxide. Would taking carbon dioxide and exchange it for methane argon, helium, neon, nitrogen, sodium and potassium from Lunar atmosphere? Maybe maintaining below the critical temperature and pressure of carbon dioxide, methane, argon, helium, neon and nitrogen are turned into gases liquids or fluids and thus float to the top of an exchange chamber. Carbon dioxide fluids sinks to the bottom. By maintaining similar vapor pressures, nitrogen argon helium and neon are mined and carbon dioxide from Venus are released on Moon.

Carbon monoxide hydrogen sodium and potassium reduce chemically carbon dioxide after the latter leaves the exchange chamber into a reaction chamber into sodium and potassium formate, acetate and oxalate solids. All mined solid and gases are delivered to Mars or Venus.

At last carbon dioxide fluid is recovered for its energy of pressurization and released to the lunar atmosphere as a gas. The vapor pressures of lunar atmospheric gases entering the chambers are maintained at the release of carbon dioxide gas. That means much less carbon dioxide amount are needed to replace the lunar atmospheric gases.

Are methane, silane (SiH4), carbon dioxide, carbon suboxide (C3O2), carbon disulfide (CS2), carbonyl sulfide (COS) and cyanogen (C2N2) greenhouse gases on Moon? If so, how harmful would releasing these gases be even if they help global warming on Mars?

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-12-09 20:54:50)

Offline

#32 2018-12-10 16:39:14

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: The Moon

Hey knightdepaix,

If I understand correctly, this is what you're proposing:

  1. Transport the CO2 from Venus to the Moon

  2. Send some gases back to Venus from the Moon?

  3. Also send some gases to Mars?

Frankly I don't really understand what you're trying to say there.

Fundamentally, yes, bringing CO2 from Venus to the Moon would be a great step towards terraforming the Moon.  It's true that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.  On the other hand, water is also a greenhouse gas and likely to be in short supply.  What the actual temperature would be if you introduced 300 mb of CO2 to the Moon I do not know.

Even if the global temperature is high, the poles will be cooler.  If there is sufficient water, nitrogen, phosphorus, etc. to support ecosystems at the poles they will slowly fix the CO2 into biomass and Oxygen.  This will lower global temperatures and increase the region of viability in an accelerating process.  Come back in a few thousand years and the Moon might be a comfortable place.


-Josh

Offline

#33 2018-12-10 18:11:42

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,333

Re: The Moon

The silvery moon has too much cultural significance I feel for us to terraform it. 

The main rationale for terraforming Mars is that we could create a safe second home on Mars that would protect the human species from extinction if something cataclysmic happend on Earth. But the Moon is so close to Earth that a truly cataclysmic event like some huge interstellar body smashing into the Earth could also take out civilisation on a terraformed Moon.

With the Moon as well, you have to cope with the 14 day/night cycle, though that could probably be changed in the future with solar reflectors and masks.

The Moon I see more as a leisure destination. The Apollo landing sites will be huge draws for tourists.  A lunar hotel, lunar rover expeditions, lunar golf course and so on will all have their attractions. We can have some paraterrformation of natural or artificial gorges, without ruining the view from Earth.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#34 2018-12-11 10:42:26

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: The Moon

I would agree that there's some historical value in retaining the Moon's current appearance.  But I would argue that there's much more value in creating a Moon's worth of habitable land.  Per my post above, the Moon has has much land area as the US, Canada, China, the EU, and India combined.   The value of that much land is simply immense, incalculably so, both in the sense of profitability and in the sense of its value to humanity.  And on top of that it's just three days' journey from here to there on a minimum energy trajectory, less if you have better engines (it's vaguely conceivable, although not with current technology, that you could go to the Moon for a weekend).

It's true that the Moon is quite beautiful as it is, but it's also true that living worlds are quite beautiful. 

It's true that there are huge challenges in remaking the Moon (as there are in terraforming any world), including "known unknowns" (Where is the water and gas inventory to come from? What do you do about the low gravity and slow rotation?) and "unknown unknowns".  However, it's such an incredible project that it will surely be worth it if you set your time horizons long enough.


-Josh

Offline

#35 2018-12-11 18:01:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,382

Re: The Moon

So do all the work on the dark side of the moon if appearance is a must.

With the venus, mars, moon and earth for economic swapping of materials as trade for what they lack; the common sense would be is that is a business model for getting more people into space as its not science and super high educational level required.

Offline

#36 2019-01-15 16:48:07

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 225

Re: The Moon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon

The atmosphere of moons has very thin argon, helium, neon, sodium, potassium and hydrogen. Does it make sense to mine all of them --- solidification or liquification --- and replace the same vapor pressure with ozone? Surface mining of helium-3 in regolith could involve processing silicates. Oxygen in silicates could be electrolyzed and converted into ozone.

Offline

#37 2019-01-15 17:14:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,382

Re: The Moon

Well we could ask China's robotics if they could as they are the only ones exploring at this time.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2071

edit:
clarifying Atmosphere and how it was created for the moon....

It is mostly from impacts and the apollo era landings what we are seeing right now or is there something else happening on the moon which is creating it currently.?

Last edited by SpaceNut (2019-01-16 18:16:00)

Offline

#38 2019-01-16 02:52:50

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 225

Re: The Moon

SpaceNut wrote:

Is it mostly from impacts and the apollo era landings what we are seeing right now or is there something else happening on the moon?

Sorry, I may lose you there. What information do you refer to?

Offline

#39 2019-01-19 20:27:24

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,382

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB