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#26 2019-01-06 22:25:36

BenVA
Member
From: Bornem, Belgium, Europe, Earth
Registered: 2018-10-11
Posts: 14
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I'm going to try to group my anwser here, TRYING!

Louis, I agree you need educated people to manage the project. They have experience, nobody debates that.But like our discussion about BFR and bigger ships I believe that EVERYTHING robotic is not for the first 50 years.

I do hope I can buy "moley" because then I wouldn't have to cook anymore and I would have fresh produce instead of my prepared Bami Goreng from my local supermarket that just needs a microwave for 5 minutes. But I don't think this will successfully achieve market until 2025-2030. The touch of a hand is still something difficult to achieve.I know this will inevitably be the case, but not for the next 50 years. Maybe if it gets subsidized to do so.

In a way human labour is still cheap. But a McDonalds will probably just have "1 cashier" who takes your order from the machine to the counter and 1 engineer who maintains the machine. You already have machines where you stack a pile of burgers and they go through a conveyor and come out cooked/baked/..., It would be "better" without as many people on earth because the burger would cost 100$ and nobody would buy them. But you will need even unschooled people. Wouldn't it be great for those adventures that don't have a degree to be able to go to Mars for a 3-5 year mission just to cook burger and come back with the story of a life time? Let people DREAM louis DREAM! Otherwise we will never have public support for all the money we need to put in to this adventure!

RobertDyck wrote:

Before Shannon Rupert moved into MDRS, she reported that teams with individuals who had Ph.D.s all left a mess. They expected a maid service to clean up after them. MDRS is a Mars simulation, everyone has to be self-reliant. There is no maid service on Mars, and won't be for a very long time.

It isn't unskilled workers who need supervision, its highly educated ones.

Thats the reason my girlfriend leaves so much clutter smile (Master degree in English/Dutch/French and Russian)

SpaceNut can I still add a poll? Is that enabled?

Kind regards

Ben


I'm a Mars enthousiast, wait we all are smile

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#27 2019-01-07 05:36:25

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,014
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

louis wrote:

Did the Apollo Mission go on to building sites in the USA in the early 60s and shout out "Hey we're looking for guys who are good with their hands and can really interpret a plan well!" or did they go to the elite military. the leading universities and prestigious scientific institutes to deliver the project?


SpaceNut wrote:

I found in the 70's and 80's that those that build are not engineers but those that posses engineering skills plus fine motor ability to create the reality that an engineer envisions are the ones that create what others dream of.

They hired lots of guys who were good with their hands and could really interpret a plan well. Who do you think built the rockets? Not designed, but actually built?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#28 2019-01-07 05:41:21

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,014
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

In Rocket City Rednecks, two of the cast members hold PhDs, whilst another worked as a machinist on the Apollo missions. Sometimes the Dr's propose things that can't really be built, because they don't have enough hands on experience to understand the implementation side.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#29 2019-01-07 09:20:01

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

Robots are already impacting food prep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6U0NdwsCWs

McDonalds already has automated cashiers:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/20 … 5e0286f140

BenVA wrote:

I'm going to try to group my anwser here, TRYING!

Louis, I agree you need educated people to manage the project. They have experience, nobody debates that.But like our discussion about BFR and bigger ships I believe that EVERYTHING robotic is not for the first 50 years.

I do hope I can buy "moley" because then I wouldn't have to cook anymore and I would have fresh produce instead of my prepared Bami Goreng from my local supermarket that just needs a microwave for 5 minutes. But I don't think this will successfully achieve market until 2025-2030. The touch of a hand is still something difficult to achieve.I know this will inevitably be the case, but not for the next 50 years. Maybe if it gets subsidized to do so.

In a way human labour is still cheap. But a McDonalds will probably just have "1 cashier" who takes your order from the machine to the counter and 1 engineer who maintains the machine. You already have machines where you stack a pile of burgers and they go through a conveyor and come out cooked/baked/..., It would be "better" without as many people on earth because the burger would cost 100$ and nobody would buy them. But you will need even unschooled people. Wouldn't it be great for those adventures that don't have a degree to be able to go to Mars for a 3-5 year mission just to cook burger and come back with the story of a life time? Let people DREAM louis DREAM! Otherwise we will never have public support for all the money we need to put in to this adventure!

RobertDyck wrote:

Before Shannon Rupert moved into MDRS, she reported that teams with individuals who had Ph.D.s all left a mess. They expected a maid service to clean up after them. MDRS is a Mars simulation, everyone has to be self-reliant. There is no maid service on Mars, and won't be for a very long time.

It isn't unskilled workers who need supervision, its highly educated ones.

Thats the reason my girlfriend leaves so much clutter smile (Master degree in English/Dutch/French and Russian)

SpaceNut can I still add a poll? Is that enabled?

Kind regards

Ben


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#30 2019-01-07 11:30:05

BenVA
Member
From: Bornem, Belgium, Europe, Earth
Registered: 2018-10-11
Posts: 14
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I'm very suprised you forgot this one smile. It's was on my santa wishlist roll

FluxBB bbcode test

Kind Regards

Ben

Last edited by BenVA (2019-01-07 11:30:52)


I'm a Mars enthousiast, wait we all are smile

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#31 2019-01-07 12:01:15

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,670
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

A lot depends on scale. Reposting from my "Crops" thread under "Life support systems", post #477

Large scale cotton harvester...
the+development+of+the+cotton+picker+has+helped+farmers+harvest+their+crops+more+effectively+john+deere+has+been+at+the+forefront+of+this+technology+a_2034_800628598_0_0_14009526_300.jpg

Small scale...
cotton_picking_machine.jpg

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#32 2019-01-07 14:27:08

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I really like that system. I can see that working really well on Mars, maybe with tiers so within a 3 metre high facility lit with LED lights mimicking natural sunlight you might have 3 - 5 tiers on the same footprint. Other robots could automatically replenish water, feed etc.

Later, we might move to natural light farming with transparent farm domes, with reflectors delivering additional light onto the target area.
But of course they will be vulnerable to dust storms. I expect a mix and match solution will be adopted, so we are never dependent on one or the other.


BenVA wrote:

I'm very suprised you forgot this one smile. It's was on my santa wishlist roll

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2040/ … 1538455662

Kind Regards

Ben


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#33 2019-01-07 17:25:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

BenVA wrote:

SpaceNut can I still add a poll? Is that enabled?

Actually this version does not have a way to do it without modifying the boards it to make it work.

You still could open a topic just for poll entry by members on the topic having each poster only indicate there vote and nothing else with in the topic being allowed.


BenVA wrote:

In a way human labour is still cheap. But a McDonalds will probably just have "1 cashier" who takes your order from the machine to the counter and 1 engineer who maintains the machine. You already have machines where you stack a pile of burgers and they go through a conveyor and come out cooked/baked/...,

Louis wrote:

Robots are already impacting food prep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6U0NdwsCWs
McDonalds already has automated cashiers:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/20 … 5e0286f140

BenVA and Louis the automation of McDonalds is machine input via humans since the food was not unload via the same machines, brought to a storage cooler, unpacked from its shipping, it is not checking the date of expiration and made ready for the machine to get it from the freezer for use by the loader section of the burger feeder.

The ordering screen still requires human intervention to make an order correct as sub menu controls and cash are not avaiable on the tablet input device. Its a program that feeds it to all the other display location. It does nothing but display ordering information.

These are examples of machines with some automation with in there specific function.

BenVA's garden machine is another example that can not adapt to the changing hieght of the produce under it, it is a fixed demension un able to get larger or smaller without human intervention. It does have its place in a permanet garden patch with very specific in size and shape of the food growing under the device.

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#34 2019-01-07 18:47:41

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

SpaceNut -

Wherever you look people are being replaced with robots...

https://www.wsj.com/video/food-delivery … 52FC5.html

There are fully automated burger-making robots as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbL_3le40qc

I am not sure you were right about the farm-garden robot not being able to deal with plants at different heights. Think it's on ratchet poles so presumably the height varies as the plant grows.



SpaceNut wrote:
BenVA wrote:

SpaceNut can I still add a poll? Is that enabled?

Actually this version does not have a way to do it without modifying the boards it to make it work.

You still could open a topic just for poll entry by members on the topic having each poster only indicate there vote and nothing else with in the topic being allowed.


BenVA wrote:

In a way human labour is still cheap. But a McDonalds will probably just have "1 cashier" who takes your order from the machine to the counter and 1 engineer who maintains the machine. You already have machines where you stack a pile of burgers and they go through a conveyor and come out cooked/baked/...,

Louis wrote:

Robots are already impacting food prep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6U0NdwsCWs
McDonalds already has automated cashiers:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/20 … 5e0286f140

BenVA and Louis the automation of McDonalds is machine input via humans since the food was not unload via the same machines, brought to a storage cooler, unpacked from its shipping, it is not checking the date of expiration and made ready for the machine to get it from the freezer for use by the loader section of the burger feeder.

The ordering screen still requires human intervention to make an order correct as sub menu controls and cash are not avaiable on the tablet input device. Its a program that feeds it to all the other display location. It does nothing but display ordering information.

These are examples of machines with some automation with in there specific function.

BenVA's garden machine is another example that can not adapt to the changing hieght of the produce under it, it is a fixed demension un able to get larger or smaller without human intervention. It does have its place in a permanet garden patch with very specific in size and shape of the food growing under the device.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#35 2019-01-07 19:33:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

BY your definition a toaster that can tell that it as got power via a computer is a robot....they are machines preprogramed automated features...

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#36 2019-01-08 00:02:16

BenVA
Member
From: Bornem, Belgium, Europe, Earth
Registered: 2018-10-11
Posts: 14
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

It has a fixed height now, but this was a side project for some friends.
But I don't see this being automated, even with a full robotic arm in stead of the "bar" like arm that is there now.

louis wrote:

SpaceNut -

Wherever you look people are being replaced with robots...

https://www.wsj.com/video/food-delivery … 52FC5.html

There are fully automated burger-making robots as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbL_3le40qc

I am not sure you were right about the farm-garden robot not being able to deal with plants at different heights. Think it's on ratchet poles so presumably the height varies as the plant grows.


I'm a Mars enthousiast, wait we all are smile

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#37 2019-01-08 20:05:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

BenVA I started a new topic with Automating a Mars Garden to be able to go into the other aspects of what you shared.

In it I have posted nearly all the topics we have here on the site farming, gardens, greenhouses and more.

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#38 2019-01-10 03:59:37

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,087

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

In my mind, automation and robotics are separate. Robotics implies a degree of autonomy and flexibility of response which is not required for a preprogrammed automated machine. The latter just stop and set an alarm then wait for a human to sort out an abnormal situation. A real robot would sort it out itself.

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#39 2019-01-10 13:07:09

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I don't think there's any clear distinction.  A "thermostat" system "sorts out"  a cold room. It's not even necessarily pre-programmed.

On the other hand many farm "robots" are most definitely pre-programmed.


elderflower wrote:

In my mind, automation and robotics are separate. Robotics implies a degree of autonomy and flexibility of response which is not required for a preprogrammed automated machine. The latter just stop and set an alarm then wait for a human to sort out an abnormal situation. A real robot would sort it out itself.

Last edited by louis (2019-01-10 13:07:37)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#40 2019-01-10 20:02:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

The user sets a value for the temperature that a person would want in the room that it is located. The sensing is displayed but does not garantee that the output relay will respond when its calling for heat if its defective. There is no redundancy to correct for a failure with in the device and it can not tell the user what is wrong which could be the furnace and not the theromostat. Something that a thermostat can not even think of doing.

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#41 2019-01-17 00:13:27

BenVA
Member
From: Bornem, Belgium, Europe, Earth
Registered: 2018-10-11
Posts: 14
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I'm back SpaceNut!

Another Question to the group. Earth Politics aside.

Lets says Lukrum(I really don't know where I got this name roll) starts a outpost on Mars to create basic infrastructure for Mars colonization. Accidents tend to happen, but here on earth you have "law and order", if an accident happens the family has a lawsuit with the company and if an agreement is made an amount is payed and the company does some changes to minimize the risk of the accident happening again, mostly because the insurance company makes it obligatory.

But on Mars legally you are in international waters ... What happens when an accident happens there, what does the law say? What court applies? Is it even possible to do a lawsuit? Most people going to Mars will be single(the permanent colonists), so will anybody care to do a lawsuit? How Do we prevent this?

This is why I do think a government entity/body can protect Earth immigrant/Martian workers and would discourage cowboy company's to  take risks on Mars. For a lot of company's(except SpaceX) the only figure that matters is the bottom line. An Employee is just a number.

I know it will be difficult to create, but I know there is a lot to benefit from this, and yes taxes will need to be implemented and nobody like takes, but also nobody like the wild west where there is no law and almost no order.

Kind regards

Ben


I'm a Mars enthousiast, wait we all are smile

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#42 2019-01-17 17:09:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

You are welcome BenVA,

For space law there are a number of treaties which have been signed into international law and from what I would think that the Captain of the ship or highest ranking would be in command of a crew when on Mars or enroute in either direction. Civilian or military the command structure is understood for that reason as to whom is in charge of direct and indirect actions of all and for there safety.

The real question will be in the enforcement wen the cre are the ones that will carry out the orders of the command or captain of the crew. Then will there be the means to jail or control the situation as in hand cuffs or other restaints.

Next up will be the communications of the crime push any other actions tat must bedone for the individual and a transision of schedules that will be effected to be curtailed or changed for the remaining part of the mission.

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#43 2019-01-17 22:24:05

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,670
Website

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

BenVA,

Seriously, read my thread: Corporate Government. This is a practical way to get settlement started, and it means no tax. If you want to build something in the pressurized building of a city, there will be a fee. This fee will effectively pay what municipal property tax pays today. This isn't way to tax without calling it tax, a shopping mall charges a fee to build a store within a unit of their building. The shopping mall provides walls, floor, roof, protection from rain and wind, heat in winter. The shopping mall provides corridors, security, garbage disposal, parking. In some cases shopping malls build a private road, or transit bus terminal. That certainly isn't free, there's a fee for a store in a mall. I envision a city on Mars will not be a dome, but large multi-story buildings like a shopping mall. I have posted pictures of malls elsewhere on this forum as examples. Again, charging equivalent to that on Mars is not unreasonable. But there won't be any tax.

I also posted a thread about history of St John's Newfoundland. It was not founded by any government colony, it was built by businessmen. For centuries there was no government at all. Christopher Columbus sailed the Ocean blue in 1492. After he returned with riches, John Cabot sailed from England in 1495, had a major labour dispute with crew, had to return home. In 1496 he sailed again, taking the northern route past Iceland. He discovered Newfoundland. Discovered a natural bay that formed an excellent harbour for ships to weather a storm; discovered on a day of the Catholic calendar called St John the Baptist Day, so he called the bay St John's Bay. He also discovered the Grand Banks, the richest fishery in the world. When he returned to England with this news, fishermen of southwest England did not have to be told twice, they headed straight to the Grand Banks. They built a fishing camp on the shore of that Bay. The returned the next year, and built a house for a caretaker to watch of the camp during winter. That house built in 1497 was the first European house built in North American since the Vikings. That camp grew to a town, which grew to a city. The city of St John's is now the capital of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They celebrated their 500th anniversary in 1997. Letters record a street built in that town: one letter says there was no street, a later letter describes the street in detail. The street was obviously built between the dates of those two letters. That street is still there: Water Street.

The town and street were all built before Plymouth Rock, before Roanoke, before Jamestown. Many decades before the first government colony.

If you want a settlement on Mars that will actually survive, it has to be built by business, not government.

But most of your post was about lawsuits. The United States is known for being excessively litigious. Why do you think lawsuits solve anything?

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#44 2019-01-18 17:50:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Government of Mars to start on earth

I think we did talk about the critical level in which we would not be able to simple make the demand for security on a crew man or men that has gone rouge as to a simple method of jailing or placing in custody for a crime until mars had enough of a central government to warrant a court plus the means to encarsorate those that commit crime..

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