Government of Mars to start on earth

BenVA · 2019-01-05 11:33:48

Hello,

I just wanted to throw an idea in the group here for "rapid" colonization of Mars. I have been thinking of this idea for a "long" time and like other people to give their thoughts about it. A group is always smarter then the individual.

NOTE: I’m not a Native English speaker, so if I make any mistake don't kill me, I'm eager to learn from my them.

So on to the idea. I thought it was best to explain my idea’s through questions. If you have any other please ask away.

How would I colonize Mars?

My idea is to start a “democratic” government on Earth for Mars. Why the democratic between parentheses, because it would be needed to start out as a non-democratic elected group, whom would be changed for a 4-8 year time frame. When there are enough “Martians” to hold democratic elections.

Where would this Mars government be based?

This government would need to have an embassy on earth. I would propose this to be in Brussels, Europe for political reasons and geographical reasons. It is close to the European Union and NATO. All big launch providers are already based in North and South America and possibly Russia’s Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.

What would the purpose for this Mars government?

This government would stand for the rapid colonization of Mars through the subsidization of enterprises that develop the transportation, equipment, extraction of resources needed for the colonization of Mars. With the goal of creating multiple colonies with a population size 10-25 million in 80-100 years.

I know this must sound like an enormous amount, but thinking of the Mars One initiative and knowing that 200.000 people signed up for a one way mission. I guess a lot more will sign up when there is a government watching over the development and putting their citizens on the first place.

Where would the subsidization come from?

1. First the most difficult task is getting the government recognized by the international community, most likely through the UN council. When found enough support this is possible but would require a change in the outer space treaty.
2. Then as a legal representation for Mars, the Mars government would put out loans from banks. Later we would open up a bond system where people can invest money with a fixed interest rate. People would be able to exchange their investments at any time in exchange for a transfer ticket to Mars.

How will the money be refunded to the banks/people?

When subsidize projects like communication satellites, habitats, mineral extraction, water processing, oxygen extraction, etc. are operational and profitable they can be taxed. In a way these subsidies are long term loans for innovative companies interested in the colonization of Mars. On average a loan would be put out over a 30 year time period at the start enabling the Martian government to pay back the first loans after 30 years. This should give the government enough time to have the first colony on Mars running and bringing in taxes.

What will the taxes be used for when all first investments have repaid?

I would invest them in the terraforming of Mars, depending off course what kind of life we find there and what the possibilities are.

This is the basic idea off course split in a few basic questions, I also have a long term financial plan, longer written texts and possible time tables but this would be too overwhelming for the first post I guess. If you think I’m crazy, I would say we all are, but some more than others.

What are the pros and cons of this approach?
PRO:
1. A full time government working on the colonization of Mars would have a tight and quick agenda with goals that need to be obtained. This gives a new time dimension to the colonization of Mars in decades instead of centuries.
2. A full time government working on the colonization of Mars would be able to regulate safe an organized colonization and the extraction of minerals.
3. A full time government working on the colonization of Mars would be able to create an Act like the Land Claim Act of 1850 in the United States so people can “easily” claim land for a low price to live on, giving them property and
4. A full time government working on the colonization of Mars would be able to create a justice system, so companies don’t take risks with human lives.
5. People could benefit from investing in a Mars government and save up for a trip to Mars in term making it possible for even more people.
6. …

CON:
1. For me: We do not know who will be elected when the first democratic elections wil take place, what this future government will stand for. What will their objectives be? What will happen to “the plan”?
2. As almost any person can apply for a Martian passport it is uncertain who will want a Martian identity. Will they have a criminal history? Why are they moving to Mars? …
3. Won’t corporation take over through lobbying like done in the current political system? This we can actually counter by using a system of direct democracy where the people must vote for big decisions, the department heads would then be responsible to correctly inform the public. This way they can make an informed decision.
4. …

I guess this was a lot for a first post.

Kind regards

Ben

louis · 2019-01-05 14:56:22

Hi Ben,

Your English is fine! Much better than most people in England can manage!!

You have an interesting approach and put forward your case well.

These are my comments:

1. Unlike many people here I think Mars will be an economic success from Sol One - and before (thanks to sponsorship). There are numerous opportunities for revenue generation. So I don't think you will need to subsidise colonisation through contributions from Earth. Space X has plenty of funds to ensure the project gets under way in my view.

2. However general colonisation of the type you propose is problematic. You can't just invite anyone to join in the initial settlement effort. We don't yet know whether pregnancies can successfully take place on Mars in 0.38 gravity. You can't have millions of people producing defective offspring who then require 24/7 care for the rest of their lives. Unskilled people who know little of science or technology will be a liability on Mars, as will people with psychological problems. If you avoid the disaster of an open migration policy, you have to invest vast amounts of screening and interviewing.

3. To get 100 people to Mars would take a minimum of 7 BFR Starship launches. So to move just one million will take 70,000 such launches. . To which you can probably add another 70,000 launches for cargo. There were 114 launches in 2018 (so you need to grow capacity by a factor of about 120 even if you spread your 140,000 launches over 10 years). While I am an optimist about Mars colonisation I think current technology doesn't allow for such a massive colonisation effort over a few decades. Moving a million people to Mars would cost probably a minimum of $100 billion. Over 100 years that might be possible. But before you start you need to prepare everything on Mars. Moving 25 million people in 100 years would cost $2,500 billion. Purely on cost grounds I doubt that is feasible. But even if it is, the issues of how you make the Mars settlement work well are much more daunting.

4. Countries like Russian and China (UN Security Council members) will never allow a democratic Mars government to be evolved under UN auspices.

Louis

BenVA wrote:

Post # 1
Hello,
I just wanted to throw an idea in the group here for "rapid" colonization of Mars. I have been thinking of this idea for a "long" time and like other people to give their thoughts about it. A group is always smarter then the individual.
NOTE: I’m not a Native English speaker, so if I make any mistake don't kill me, I'm eager to learn from my them.
Ben

SpaceNut · 2019-01-05 17:01:30

Welcome to NewMars BenVA and you were fine in the details...
You are not alone in being a member from Belgium as we have others.
I hope you stick around too contribute more to all of the discussion that go on here.

BenVA · 2019-01-06 03:40:25

Thanks SpaceNut,

I hope too meet some dutch speaking people from Belgium as we only have french chapter of The Mars Society here at the moment. At least I think so because their site is only in French.

Louis,

1. I agree with you when you think that colonization of Mars will be a succes from day one, but relying only on SpaceX is not the best option. They can not do EVERYTHING. As far a transportation goes I'm in happy with their progress. But mining, building habitats, agriculture and so on is something else. I know they had a congress about it but I don't see them building everything unless everybody on earth takes a StarLink subscription.

2. I agree that you can not just take everyone, at least not for the first 10-20 and more likely 30-40 years. My proposal on that end was for this government to create a medical center for screening the first possible colonists, then all who pass the physical/psychological test can have "linkedIn" like profile where earth company's interested in looking for employees can select them together with their job experience and their qualifications needed. Maybe even obligate for the first 100 years you can only migrate if you have a signed contract with an employer on Mars or off cours if you are going to take a 2,5-3 year vacation.

We have 7,xx billions people on earth, finding 10 tot 25 million to start over on Mars won't be difficult. Noting that this is over 80-100 years, the population of Earth will surely have gone up to 10 billion at least by 2100. Company's working on Mars will be the first entity's paying for transport to Mars in the first 50 years. So I guess unqualified people will have no available seat on the first 50 years of travel.

On the part of offspring I'm neutral, not really my area of expertise (yet). But I'm optimistic looking to the evolutionary path we have gone through the last few thousand years.

3. I agree with current day technology this is impossible, but Elon Musk said that if there is interest he would build bigger ships, knowing on orbit assembly is just a 1-2 decades away, I believe BFR can just become a transporter of 1000 people from the surface to earth orbit. Then you don't need cabines but just seats. A transport ship would just ferry between earth orbit and Mars orbit with a capacity of maybe 5000 people. Also within the next 50 years I see plasma drives/ion drives and maybe even more come operational. Knowing if a Martian Government would arise it NASA would be able to focus on more advanced projects and stop studying Mars. But ways to get to the outer solar system.

4. I agree this is the most difficult one, and my solution to this is not the most straight forward and easy going.

Country's like Palestine are still not recognized by some nations as seen on the following map, Not even Europe! You don't need to be recognized by every country on earth, Europa and US would be a plus.

As a plus for leverage: you can not trade(subsidize company's) with a state that doesn't recognized the Mars Government as no trade deals can be made. It is in their own interest for economic growth to recognize a Martian Entity. As it would be difficult to invade a Mars Government(no land on earth), and it would also be difficult to shut down, unless you see Russia or China bomb or use some toxic agent on an embassy in the heart of Brussels(EU, NATO), New York(UN) or any other place without provoking a war with other UN members.

WIKIPEDIA wrote:

As of 3 August 2018, 137 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states and two non-member states have recognized it. Furthermore, Palestine has been a non-member observer state of the UN since November 2012.

FluxBB bbcode test

But I guess this a whole other discussion.

Ben

louis · 2019-01-06 07:13:41

1. I agree that Space X cannot do everything by themselves. Most obviously they need NASA's coms system to enable communications with Mars. For Mission One essentially the requirements are for a hab, for life support, for water extraction, and for propellant production. The ability to grow some salad vegetables would also be nice. Off Earth life support is pretty much an established technology now. Water extraction is not I feel that difficult a task. Extraction from the atmosphere might in fact be the easiest method. Propellant production is an established technology - it just has to be space-proofed. It's challenging but not hugely so. Space X has the resources to commission designs and development.

2. I don't agree with you that "finding 10 tot 25 million to start over on Mars won't be difficult". You are essentially looking for people who are:

*Above average intelligence.
*Have STEM qualifications at post grad level.
*Are extremely fit.
*Have no major physical health problems or disabilities.
*Be psychologically very well balanced.

Only about 2% of Americans have doctoral degrees.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc … ver-before

That might be the pool you are fishing in. 2% of 300 million is 6 million. But of those I am guessing probably no more than half are in STEM (and that's probably being kind). So maybe 3 million STEM post grads at most. But probably half of those will be the wrong age, ofter 50 or retired and/or out of touch with their subjects. So, you are down to 1.5 million.

Of those I would suspect that 80% will fail one or more of the fitness, health or psychological tests.

You're down to 300,000.

We can rule out anyone with children for the first few decades.

Let's say only 30% do not have children they live with or don't mind being split from their children.

Your pool is now down to 90,000. How many of those live with a significant other? Perhaps 80% I would suggest. And how many of those would be prepared to sacrifice that relationship to go to Mars? I'd say only 5% of the 80%. So your pool is now 24% of 90,000 ie 21,600.

But of course just because you have a pool of 21,600 doesn't mean they all want to go to Mars. They still have to have (a) a pull to Mars (adventurous spirit, scientific inquiry etc ) (b) a push to Mars (maybe feeling they have not being accorded sufficient status on Earth or their qualities here are undervalued) (c) be prepared to kiss goodbye to their friends and extended family probably for many years if not forever (d) be prepared to live in a fairly restricted world breathing artificial air, no rain on their face, no ability to just book a holiday and head off somewhere nice, to relax on a beach or whatever and (e) an acceptance that they must forego their recreational habits such as drink, drugs, golf, swimming in their own pool or the sea.

You may disagree but I think you would be down to about 10% of that 21,600. You are probably talking about 2000 or so people with the right stuff who would be prepared to countenance becoming permanent colonists on Mars.

I think you would do a lot better with people prepared to take 3-5 years out of their normal lives to become temporary settlers who have the "right stuff". There the pool could be in the 100s of thousands. In fact that's how I see things working - Mars settlement would for the first few decades be a permanent settlement of temporary settlers - somewhere between an Antarctic Base and a remote mining town on Earth.

3. I think orbital assembly and a dedicated LEO-LMO transporter could be done now - it's just more development and research required, time in other words. But I am not sure that would save you a huge number of launches... You still need fuel to get the transporter from A to B don't you and you have a problem now at the Mars end where you also need a "ferry" service...? But yes, other technologies will be developed and eventually transfer will become much easier.

4. You make some fair points there. If a putative Mars government could gain recognition from a country like say Costa Rica. Where they could base themselves, they could be recognised as a corporation operating under Costa Rica's jurisdiction (just as sovereign nations have sovereign wealth funds on Earth). This would allow them to operate under the Outer Space Treaty (OST). As you say, people will eventually see that Mars has huge economic potential. But a major stumbling block with your plan is that as things currently stand you
can't legally alienate land on Mars (ie claim ownership) whether you are government or a company. I think in the end unless you revise the OST, it is really a question of a Mars community declaring a natural right to self -government. It wouldn't be the first time in human history people had claimed that in the face of treaties denying them the right.

BenVA wrote:

response to post #4
Louis, But I guess this a whole other discussion.
Ben

Last edited by louis (2019-01-06 07:15:53)

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 08:40:26

Louis,
Yours step 1
Highlights what is lacking from Space x and thats a plan not a video but words and values...as they are making a launch vehicle

Your step 2 selection process
Hard work an Doctorates do not go together plus if they are going to work and still need to pay for the trip, why go...
Those that want to go want a fresh start and that will lower the Doctorate count even more...
The remaining attributes drop with age....

Mars is not going to be easy...

Step 3. assembly
Must be part of step 1 from the start, there is not evident in any videos and documents...

Step 4
You own what you bring or make but there is none for where you land and must coorporate for what you do as the mix of companies and nations will start a war off world if they do not work with each other...we are world building not doing singular nation...

BenVA · 2019-01-06 08:43:07

louis wrote:

1. I agree that Space X cannot do everything by themselves. Most obviously they need NASA's coms system to enable communications with Mars. For Mission One essentially the requirements are for a hab, for life support, for water extraction, and for propellant production. The ability to grow some salad vegetables would also be nice. Off Earth life support is pretty much an established technology now. Water extraction is not I feel that difficult a task. Extraction from the atmosphere might in fact be the easiest method. Propellant production is an established technology - it just has to be space-proofed. It's challenging but not hugely so. Space X has the resources to commission designs and development.

Louis, I’m not saying this can’t be done by SpaceX, Mission One is with current day technology and some inventing to do.

louis wrote:

2. I don't agree with you that "finding 10 tot 25 million to start over on Mars won't be difficult". You are essentially looking for people who are:
*Above average intelligence.
*Have STEM qualifications at post grad level.
*Are extremely fit.
*Have no major physical health problems or disabilities.
*Be psychologically very well balanced.
Only about 2% of Americans have doctoral degrees.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc … ver-before
That might be the pool you are fishing in. 2% of 300 million is 6 million. But of those I am guessing probably no more than half are in STEM (and that's probably being kind). So maybe 3 million STEM post grads at most. But probably half of those will be the wrong age, ofter 50 or retired and/or out of touch with their subjects. So, you are down to 1.5 million.
Of those I would suspect that 80% will fail one or more of the fitness, health or psychological tests.
You're down to 300,000.
We can rule out anyone with children for the first few decades.
Let's say only 30% do not have children they live with or don't mind being split from their children.
Your pool is now down to 90,000. How many of those live with a significant other? Perhaps 80% I would suggest. And how many of those would be prepared to sacrifice that relationship to go to Mars? I'd say only 5% of the 80%. So your pool is now 24% of 90,000 ie 21,600.
But of course just because you have a pool of 21,600 doesn't mean they all want to go to Mars. They still have to have (a) a pull to Mars (adventurous spirit, scientific inquiry etc ) (b) a push to Mars (maybe feeling they have not being accorded sufficient status on Earth or their qualities here are undervalued) (c) be prepared to kiss goodbye to their friends and extended family probably for many years if not forever (d) be prepared to live in a fairly restricted world breathing artificial air, no rain on their face, no ability to just book a holiday and head off somewhere nice, to relax on a beach or whatever and (e) an acceptance that they must forego their recreational habits such as drink, drugs, golf, swimming in their own pool or the sea.
You may disagree but I think you would be down to about 10% of that 21,600. You are probably talking about 2000 or so people with the right stuff who would be prepared to countenance becoming permanent colonists on Mars.
I think you would do a lot better with people prepared to take 3-5 years out of their normal lives to become temporary settlers who have the "right stuff". There the pool could be in the 100s of thousands. In fact that's how I see things working - Mars settlement would for the first few decades be a permanent settlement of temporary settlers - somewhere between an Antarctic Base and a remote mining town on Earth.

Who dictates you have to have a doctoral degree to go to Mars? Except for the first 100-500 people.
I consider this a prejudices to people without a degree and you hurt my feelings a bit .

To add to this a tiny bit of my life story:

2009: Ben is tired of studying, because he is not so good at it, at least he thinks he isn’t.
2011: Ben does like to work with his hands but realizes he isn’t able to do this his entire lift, so he start to work really, really hard.
2014: Ben becomes a dispatcher
2015: Ben becomes a business unit manager
2018: Ben becomes a project manager for development and implementation of a new ERP for his company

So this is what I do for the next year.

I do agree for the first 10-20 years building up infrastructure it would be better to rotate the crews like on the space station but for a 3-5 year mission off course. This will make it psychologically more attractive and you will be able to find more volunteers like you said. But once a colony reaches a population of +1000 I don’t think you will have the problem anymore of psychological stress like with a 20-200 person crew. You could even bring your special one to reduce loneliness. You need cooks, maintenance workers, ... . The world out there doesn't run on PHD's only .

louis wrote:

3. I think orbital assembly and a dedicated LEO-LMO transporter could be done now - it's just more development and research required, time in other words. But I am not sure that would save you a huge number of launches... You still need fuel to get the transporter from A to B don't you and you have a problem now at the Mars end where you also need a "ferry" service...? But yes, other technologies will be developed and eventually transfer will become much easier.

Louis, I’m talking of the future not everything in the next 10 years, in my time table(budget) I use BFR for the first 10-20 years as an Earth to Mars shuttle, but after that you can use BFR as a ferry on earth and on Mars when a bigger transporter is created. I guess if a BFR can get to earth it can get in orbit an descent again to the Martian surface.

About the fuel I would say in 20-30years you would have the ability to create big Ion or plasma drives. Especially with subsidies . I know a lot of people are “against” taxes.

louis wrote:

4. You make some fair points there. If a putative Mars government could gain recognition from a country like say Costa Rica. Where they could base themselves, they could be recognized as a corporation operating under Costa Rica's jurisdiction (just as sovereign nations have sovereign wealth funds on Earth). This would allow them to operate under the Outer Space Treaty (OST). As you say, people will eventually see that Mars has huge economic potential. But a major stumbling block with your plan is that as things currently stand you can't legally alienate land on Mars (ie claim ownership) whether you are government or a company. I think in the end unless you revise the OST, it is really a question of a Mars community declaring a natural right to self -government. It wouldn't be the first time in human history people had claimed that in the face of treaties denying them the right.

Louis in Belgium we would say: geduld is een mooie deugd. In English: patience is a beautiful virtue. Sayings (another translation) are not always translated as well as we want, especially if they are in a dialect, but it sounds ok for me .

But I believe that if you believe in something and stand and fight for it, you will get it. Preferably with other likeminded people, because otherwise you find yourself again with the word loneliness.

To close this of, have I ever explained to you that Belgians from time to time can be really stubborn when believing in an idea?

Kind regards

Ben

BenVA · 2019-01-06 08:44:30

Just saying I admire people getting a degree. It was just not for to me

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 09:36:29

It sounds like BenVA is self educating and growing in the process.

Myself started with attenting associates in Electronics Enginering Technology by failed out second block of calculus after attending 1 yr and 2/3rds.. Went to work for a bankrupt peripheral device maker for computers and my application acceptance was reading a tech manual on the fly for the tech that was trouble shooting as to what the parts did in the schematic diagram and was hired but did not last long about the same as my education. Landed a job in a simular manner for computer manufacturer as repair on circuit board failures from power supplies to logic and proving worth of education applied towards R&D later in design of actual component prototype build. Was part of a group that was developing the CD Rom burner in the 80's. Dry spell insuded before getting a local networking job trouble shooting network cards and such eventually ending up developing automated test beds for these parts. Different company building prototypes and cutting edge product and now that is gone. Can not talk about what I do now but its not quite as cutting edge but all the skill developed from those companies that came before are being applied to the work.

As noted mostly self educating along the way...finally did get my associates trade science in current work.

Keep striving upward and onward to success BenVA

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 10:05:26

So how are we administrating Antartica science as that is the starting point we will be in for early mars as the providers of flights will be limited and international in flavor?

louis · 2019-01-06 12:18:23

I wasn't disparaging people without degrees. But in terms of the sorts of high level skills we require on Mars, they are most likely to be found among people with doctoral degrees. Also in the early stages you would need people with crossover skills - you know like a medical doctor who also has a wide ranging bank of horticultural knowledge. We need people who can set up scientific experiments and maybe also go on mining expeditions.

Of course, as the Mars colony expands, people without degrees will likely find their own place but I think a lot of lower skilled jobs like restaurant work will be taken up by robots. You might like this if you haven't seen it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdwfoBbEbBE

My question to you would be: who dictates that only people with really good qualifications go to the top universities? It's just the way it is...I really can't think why the Mars settlement would be looking for people without high level qualifications unless it's in areas like art and design where they are less important.

It would be nice to extend the domicile period, but we can't do that until we know exactly how our bodies respond to being in 0.38 for several years. I am optimistic we can extend it gradually until permanent habitation becomes possible. But we simply don't know at this point.

You make a fair point about the improvements in transport technology that are on the horizon. But if you still have to take people up to and down from your transporter. With the Mars and Earth ends of the journey separated, you have to have launches of different craft. This all requires massive investment.

Patience is indeed a virtue but not when deployed by NASA who have been far too patient about colonisation of the solar system by humans!

BenVA wrote:

Louis, I’m not saying this can’t be done by SpaceX, Mission One is with current day technology and some inventing to do.

Who dictates you have to have a doctoral degree to go to Mars? Except for the first 100-500 people.
I consider this a prejudices to people without a degree and you hurt my feelings a bit .
To add to this a tiny bit of my life story:
2009: Ben is tired of studying, because he is not so good at it, at least he thinks he isn’t.
2011: Ben does like to work with his hands but realizes he isn’t able to do this his entire lift, so he start to work really, really hard.
2014: Ben becomes a dispatcher
2015: Ben becomes a business unit manager
2018: Ben becomes a project manager for development and implementation of a new ERP for his company
So this is what I do for the next year.
I do agree for the first 10-20 years building up infrastructure it would be better to rotate the crews like on the space station but for a 3-5 year mission off course. This will make it psychologically more attractive and you will be able to find more volunteers like you said. But once a colony reaches a population of +1000 I don’t think you will have the problem anymore of psychological stress like with a 20-200 person crew. You could even bring your special one to reduce loneliness. You need cooks, maintenance workers, ... . The world out there doesn't run on PHD's only .
Louis, I’m talking of the future not everything in the next 10 years, in my time table(budget) I use BFR for the first 10-20 years as an Earth to Mars shuttle, but after that you can use BFR as a ferry on earth and on Mars when a bigger transporter is created. I guess if a BFR can get to earth it can get in orbit an descent again to the Martian surface.
About the fuel I would say in 20-30years you would have the ability to create big Ion or plasma drives. Especially with subsidies . I know a lot of people are “against” taxes.

Louis in Belgium we would say: geduld is een mooie deugd. In English: patience is a beautiful virtue. Sayings (another translation) are not always translated as well as we want, especially if they are in a dialect, but it sounds ok for me .
But I believe that if you believe in something and stand and fight for it, you will get it. Preferably with other likeminded people, because otherwise you find yourself again with the word loneliness.
To close this of, have I ever explained to you that Belgians from time to time can be really stubborn when believing in an idea?
Kind regards
Ben

Terraformer · 2019-01-06 12:45:18

It depends on the group. There won't just be one group looking to settle Mars, just as there isn't one space agency for the entire planet.

A PhD takes 3-4 years to get, and is very unlikely to offer any additional skills that would be helpful for Mars settlement. A Masters degree, on the other hand... but loads of people have those now, since they're offered part and parcel on a lot of degree programmes. But the 4 years that are needed for a PhD could be spent instead in training for actually relevant skills. Or in getting a second degree - there are 4 year courses for biology graduates to get a medical degree, for instance. What would be better - an additional Dr of Biology, or an additional Doctor who is also a biologist?

Last edited by Terraformer (2019-01-06 12:45:52)

IanM · 2019-01-06 14:29:50

RobertDyck did a thread similar to this here. As much as I'm all for "Mars for everyone" I do recognize that most people on Mars will in practice be highly educated, especially in earlier years.

EDIT: My own thoughts on a constitution are here.

Last edited by IanM (2019-01-06 14:33:27)

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 16:52:50

The way Louis talks about everything being automated means you could use retards to go....push buttons and watch so as to turn it off....
The upper level educated will not do grunt work as well...as here are not going to be all that many buttons to push.
We need to think more like SeaBees when going to mars.
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Seabee
The Seabees have a history of building bases, bulldozing and paving thousands of miles of roadway and airstrips, and accomplishing a myriad of other construction projects in a wide variety of military theaters dating back to World War II.
Sure you are going send a few brains to do planning and verification of numbers but its mostly common educated that you are going to need.

louis · 2019-01-06 17:48:04

Love the Sea Bees! But I don't think they are v. relevant to Mars.

You can't just go out there and set up in the open, owing to what we should call the "pressure problem".

The reason I think robots will be used for repetitive tasks like burger flipping, floor cleaning, coffee making and so on is that the cost of getting a low or unskilled worker to Mars will be at least $500,000. If McDonalds had to put out half a million dollars (upfront, remember) before a burger flipper could be put to work, they would already have adopted robots.

And once they are there, on Mars, the low and unskilled workers will need a lot of management, a lot of resources. Much easier to pack up the robot and send it there (doesn't need food or air to breathe or water to drink en route).

The difference with the highly skilled workers is that they are absolutely necessary to the Mars project. You really do need highly trained geologists, doctors, IT workers, rocket engineers, propellant manufacture engineers, life support experts etc.

A lot of the classic Sea Beas work can now be undertaken by robots or automatically - e.g. mining. digging, levelling, setting up habs, laying pipes and so on.

SpaceNut wrote:

The way Louis talks about everything being automated means you could use retards to go....push buttons and watch so as to turn it off....
The upper level educated will not do grunt work as well...as here are not going to be all that many buttons to push.
We need to think more like SeaBees when going to mars.
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Seabee
The Seabees have a history of building bases, bulldozing and paving thousands of miles of roadway and airstrips, and accomplishing a myriad of other construction projects in a wide variety of military theaters dating back to World War II.
Sure you are going send a few brains to do planning and verification of numbers but its mostly common educated that you are going to need.

louis · 2019-01-06 18:14:15

Well I prefer the "Finders Keepers" rule. First to Mars gets to say how it's run and I just hope first there is the right outfit with the right ideas (personally can't see anyone better than Musk's Space X). If you want to replicate the world's troubles on Mars, feel free but that's not my approach.

I wasn't being too literal about PhD qualifications. What I would say is that your average graduate wouldn't make the Mars grade. They will need a lot more and since the focus is on STEM that does, most definitely, normally involved post grad courses and doctorates if you are going to get into the highly qualfiied category, plus several years of proven high quality work in a demanding environment.

Obviously we want to maximise benefit to the Mars settlement. A medically qualified biologist with a PhD who takes apart and reassembles cars at the weekend would be perfect!

Terraformer wrote:

It depends on the group. There won't just be one group looking to settle Mars, just as there isn't one space agency for the entire planet.
A PhD takes 3-4 years to get, and is very unlikely to offer any additional skills that would be helpful for Mars settlement. A Masters degree, on the other hand... but loads of people have those now, since they're offered part and parcel on a lot of degree programmes. But the 4 years that are needed for a PhD could be spent instead in training for actually relevant skills. Or in getting a second degree - there are 4 year courses for biology graduates to get a medical degree, for instance. What would be better - an additional Dr of Biology, or an additional Doctor who is also a biologist?

RobertDyck · 2019-01-06 18:24:19

louis wrote:

...the cost of getting a low or unskilled worker to Mars will be at least $500,000. If McDonalds had to put out half a million dollars (upfront, remember) before a burger flipper could be put to work, they would already have adopted robots.
And once they are there, on Mars, the low and unskilled workers will need a lot of management, a lot of resources.

Before Shannon Rupert moved into MDRS, she reported that teams with individuals who had Ph.D.s all left a mess. They expected a maid service to clean up after them. MDRS is a Mars simulation, everyone has to be self-reliant. There is no maid service on Mars, and won't be for a very long time.

It isn't unskilled workers who need supervision, its highly educated ones.

louis · 2019-01-06 18:32:27

Yep - it's nothing to do with the innate value of people, it's simply reality.

It's like saying back in the mid 1950s "I want to build a satellite!". Where would you go to find the people to build your satellite...you'd go to universities and other elite institutions. You wouldn't go into some barber shop in the mid West and say "Anyone interested in building satellites?". The process determines the personnel.

But I have always argued for a strong arts, design and cultural input to Mars settlement, so I think there will be scope for non STEM people who often - maybe usually - don't have advanced formal qualifications.

However I can't see much of a role for manual, service or repetitive labour on Mars. In the UK millions of people are employed in restuarant work, waiting on diners, cleaning, driving (taxis), laundering clothes, delivering takeaway food, delivering groceries, driving trucks and so on....None of those jobs will make much sense on Mars. I think there will be a role for general retail workers...e.g. clothes shops. People still need guidance and advice (maybe flattery) in those environments. I was going to mention bookshops but of course Mars is probably going to start paperless and remain paperless. It will be a screen culture, not a paper culture.

IanM wrote:

RobertDyck did a thread similar to this here. As much as I'm all for "Mars for everyone" I do recognize that most people on Mars will in practice be highly educated, especially in earlier years.
EDIT: My own thoughts on a constitution are here.

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 18:58:41

I found in the 70's and 80's that those that build are not engineers but those that posses engineering skills plus fine motor ability to create the reality that an engineer envisions are the ones that create what others dream of.

louis · 2019-01-06 19:21:48

Did the Apollo Mission go on to building sites in the USA in the early 60s and shout out "Hey we're looking for guys who are good with their hands and can really interpret a plan well!" or did they go to the elite military. the leading universities and prestigious scientific institutes to deliver the project?

SpaceNut wrote:

I found in the 70's and 80's that those that build are not engineers but those that posses engineering skills plus fine motor ability to create the reality that an engineer envisions are the ones that create what others dream of.

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 20:34:37

This is the reality of Nasa in the 60's for one group of people:

After the start of World War II, Federal agencies and defense contractors across the country coped with a shortage of male number crunchers by hiring women with math skills. America’s aeronautical think tank, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (the “NACA”), headquartered at Langley Research Laboratory in Hampton, Virginia, created a pool of female mathematicians who analyzed endless arrays of data from wind tunnel tests of airplane prototypes. Women were thought to be more detail-oriented, their smaller hands better suited for repetitive tasks on the Friden manual adding machines. A “girl” could be paid significantly less than a man for doing the same job. And male engineers, once freed from laborious math work, could focus on more “serious” conceptual and analytical projects.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme … ew/512252/

louis · 2019-01-06 21:01:43

That's irrelevant today. All those women (who would still have had relatively high qualifications for the period) would now be at graduate level (at least) and (more likely) post grad level.

SpaceNut wrote:

This is the reality of Nasa in the 60's for one group of people:
After the start of World War II, Federal agencies and defense contractors across the country coped with a shortage of male number crunchers by hiring women with math skills. America’s aeronautical think tank, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (the “NACA”), headquartered at Langley Research Laboratory in Hampton, Virginia, created a pool of female mathematicians who analyzed endless arrays of data from wind tunnel tests of airplane prototypes. Women were thought to be more detail-oriented, their smaller hands better suited for repetitive tasks on the Friden manual adding machines. A “girl” could be paid significantly less than a man for doing the same job. And male engineers, once freed from laborious math work, could focus on more “serious” conceptual and analytical projects.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme … ew/512252/

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 21:09:49

here is the builders of the day

was it your response in #20 or someone else

its all relative as its not changed that much.....for building

university research is not building

SpaceNut · 2019-01-06 21:22:08

https://www.hierarchystructure.com/comp … hierarchy/

https://data.oecd.org/emp/employment-by … -level.htm

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Em … ary/by_Job

https://www.reddit.com/r/engineering/co … cex_so_low

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2014/ … d-jobs.htm

high school-designated occupations make up the largest percentage of jobs in all the states

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/charact … 18037.html

BenVA · 2019-01-06 21:53:48

Thanks Ian, was going to read that, but sinds watching Continuum on Netflix I'm not so in to corporate government. Would you like your boss to dictate the law? Then the law will be used for profit instead of scientific advancements. It is a "fast" way to colonize Mars but with some drawbacks. But lets discuss this in that thread once i'm up to speed .

IanM wrote:

RobertDyck did a thread similar to this here. As much as I'm all for "Mars for everyone" I do recognize that most people on Mars will in practice be highly educated, especially in earlier years.
EDIT: My own thoughts on a constitution are here.

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