South of the Border Politics

SpaceNut · 2018-12-20 18:28:33

Even when told the votes are not there in either the house or senate for a 5 billion towards the wall and saying he would own a government shutdown he did temporarily back down. The bipartison deal for a CR was brought forward with no wall money at all but now he says that he will not sign it. Both side had thought that continuing with the 1.3 billion could still do alot of building but he needs to take the deal and move on.
I will say, keep repairing the current wall and adding sections is fine but thinking that it will stop to zero is just silly for the Trump invasion.

kbd512 · 2018-12-20 19:25:03

SpaceNut,

We don't need the wall to stop illegal immigrants for all the rest of eternity, just long enough for USBP to respond and arrest those who try to jump over.

A border wall is a barrier that's no different in concept than a moat around a castle. Last I checked, most soldiers can swim, so that alone didn't deter those soldiers from attacking the castle. However, archers on the castle wall raining down arrows on those attempting to swim across the moat was a pretty effective way to prevent most attackers from arriving on the other side of the moat in significant numbers. The moat had the effect of slowing the attackers considerably, such that the defenders had adequate time to respond.

Same concept is at play with a border wall, except we're not raining down arrows on illegal immigrants, and instead having a small contingent of law enforcement personnel take them to temporary detention centers or camps where they're sheltered / clothed / fed / vaccinated / treated for illness until they're legally permitted to enter the US or denied entry and deported.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-21 21:51:04

Shutdown over Trump’s wall will hurt border security, U.S. border patrol agent says, not only on agents’ paychecks but on border security in general. “Long story short, shutting down the government means fewer border patrol agents in the field,” and. “Fewer agents in the field means less border security.

In the event of a shutdown, essential personnel (i.e. border agents) are required to work without pay, while nonessential employees — “the people who do payroll, intel analysts, human resources, executive assistants, vehicle maintenance, etc.” — are furloughed, and “the agency can’t effectively operate without those people in place, so during a shutdown, uniformed agents are moved into some of those positions. Which can have a huge effect on operations.”

elderflower · 2018-12-22 04:07:36

I think you misunderstand the purpose of moats. They are there to prevent an attacker from undermining the walls and towers of a castle. Any galleries would get flooded. Before this threat the old style motte and bailey castle was adequate.

kbd512 · 2018-12-22 15:22:41

Elderflower,

You don't really believe that those of us who were in the military think that a chain link fence or HESCO barrier prevents people from trying to infiltrate our military bases to attack them, do you?

I actually think I understand how moats affected the behavior of would-be attackers well enough. One of the benefits of having a moat was making it more difficult to undermine the castle's walls, but so far as I can tell the only way the attackers were able to do that was by gaining physical access to the castle walls and that was a very difficult to do using hand tools when a natural obstacle was in front of the wall obstructed access.

As previously stated, we're not trying to prevent every illegal immigrant who ever lived from ever gaining access to the US for all time, we're just trying to slow them down enough to allow USBP to round them up and deport them. That's exactly what a border wall does. It merely makes it far more difficult to cross when you can't simply walk across the US-Mexico border. Some of the illegals may attempt to tunnel under the wall, some may build their own airplanes to fly over the wall, and yet others may attempt to swim across the rivers or oceans that naturally separate the US from Mexico. None of that detracts from the utility of the wall because all of those solutions require more sophisticated technology and are more dangerous to attempt.

Wonderopolis - Where the Wonders of Learning Never Cease - Why Did Castles Have Moats?

From the link:

When moats were filled with water, they were usually deep enough to make it difficult for attackers to wade across. In addition to being difficult to swim with weapons, attackers would be reluctant to try swimming across because they would be too vulnerable to attack from castle guards.

So, no, I don't misunderstand the purpose of moats. Rather, you only understand one aspect of how they were used to slow or inhibit attacks.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-24 15:33:30

SpaceNut wrote:

It’s official. As of the stroke of midnight Saturday, The shutdown affects spending for nine departments, hundreds of thousands of federal employees are being furloughed during the government shutdown, but for many, it will mean working without pay.
"A government shutdown is bad for the country and especially for the border patrol officers and TSA agents who will be forced to work without pay over the holidays."
The government impasse comes down to securing funding for a wall along the southern border of the U.S. Meanwhile, customs and Border Patrol agents guarding the Ambassador Bridge will continue working over the holiday without pay.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-24 15:40:07

kbd512 wrote:

SpaceNut,
Ironically, our government was shut down in an attempt to seek more funding to make the job of the US Border Patrol easier. We have people in our country who obviously benefit in some way from illegal immigration who want to keep the status quo because they have a vested interest in continued criminality. President Trump is forcing the issue.

You have appeared to have missed the earlier post which indicated that border money has gone unspent from the last few CR's and that a deal was made to avoid the shutdown but Trump did not want to budget the money for aids that would have been used by the CBP.
Democrats are willing to put in money to replace on a scheduel sections of the wall and improvements in technology to go into that funding and not just walls.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-24 21:24:27

3 days and counting on a shutdown with the apparent thing not being money but brick and motar or in this case Steel.. oh wait a minute there is a tarrif on that....

More than half of those employees deemed essential, including U.S. Secret Service agents and Transportation Security Administration agents, must work without pay, though retroactive pay is expected. Another 380,000 were to be furloughed, meaning they will not report to work but would also be paid later. Legislation ensuring workers receive back pay was expected to clear Congress.

As you can see its not money...

here is an example of an illegal that has american children which is going while they stay, did no other wrong and did not go on food stamps or other assistance while here.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi … s-60002092

I am ure the fence swings both ways for those that did come here for how they respond to adversitity

SpaceNut · 2018-12-24 21:47:30

Green card holders beware as you will now need to show proof that you deserve to be here by what I would recogmend is a work fare program before getting help just like all americans must do for unemployment. Whining Democrats can get in line for help first if you are in need as you are american but to be sure its fair for others to get help they must become american or out you go....

Politicians, doctors say new Trump rule will punish immigrants for using "bread and butter" services

I do not know about others but I worked for a net gain of just 6,000 for a calendar year doing anything that I could and did not qualify for help so why should they.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-24 21:54:27

I said it before that Trump does not understand....
Trump says border wall will be built with "shutdown money"

"As long as the president is guided by the House Freedom Caucus, it's hard to see how he can come up with a solution that can pass both the House and Senate and end his Trump Shutdown," they added.
All sides now anticipate the impasse will continue at least into the first week of January.
President Trump, who is spending the holidays in the White House after cancelling a trip to his Mar-a-Lago resort, said on Christmas Eve that a "complete" wall on the southern border will be built with "Shutdown money plus funds already in hand."
"As I said earlier today when we opened, I'm glad that productive discussions are continuing," McConnell said on the Senate floor. "When these negotiations produce a solution that is acceptable to all parties, which means 60 votes in the senate, a majority in the House, and a presidential signature, at that point we will take it up on the Senate floor.

I would build more ports of entry alone the border, in other areas to create a greater ability to process as its already been shown walls are not the only answer but people are to slow the onsloat of people going across with some turning themselves in as soon as they do see bcp while others chose to not do it.

Another thing to do on both sides of the board are to create a common area for these people to reside in until they are given assylum or told to apply for a passport to enter legally.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-25 18:39:29

Is it merry christmas to these folks that have been caught oh and released in Elpaso....
ICE unexpectedly drops hundreds of migrants at El Paso bus station and without a peep from ICE as they didn't give the city and charities time to prepare to handle the migrants.

ICE bussed 214 migrants to the depot Sunday night and some 200 more throughout the day Monday, demonstrates a reckless disregard for very vulnerable people, including children. It is unacceptable.

"ICE admitted that they made a mistake" in failing to notify local and charity officials of its plans so they could "have those beds ready so we don't have migrants standing at a park, or in a parking lot or at a bus station" without food.

The president also lamented canceling his holiday trip to his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida as the government remains partially closed. Persistent that the shutdown will continue until his border wall demand is met....

There should be concern in that another Migrant child dies in Border Patrol custody; second in a month

The boy was initially diagnosed with a common cold and fever and was released after being prescribed antibiotics, authorities said.
During the evening on December 24, however, officials said Felipe experienced nausea and vomiting, and was again transferred to the same hospital, where he died early the next day.

Probable antibiotic caused death....

SpaceNut · 2018-12-26 12:29:48

Finally something more than a stupid border wall for protection of americans from communical diseases and something that we should have been doing all along...

Border Patrol Is Conducting Medical Checks After Second Child’s Death in Custody

Sure a wall would slow them but so would additional ports of entry....

kbd512 · 2018-12-26 21:43:17

SpaceNut,

Apart from temporarily adding to the Democrat Party's voting block, is there some reason why we need a massive influx of destitute people who won't meaningfully contribute to a technologically advanced economy because they can't speak English, far too many refuse to even try to learn, and many don't have the equivalent of a 6th grade education?

I see this problem far too frequently in the Asian immigrant community with first generation immigrants as well. Half the immigrants can't speak English to literally save their lives if their home is on fire or they need to call the Police. It's enough of a problem here in Houston that we hire employees because they speak a foreign language, rather than because they're the best at their chosen profession. America isn't supposed to be a nation of people who can't even trade phone numbers with each other, much less carry on a conversation.

As America increasingly automates and eliminates manual labor jobs, what positive effect would admitting more uneducated poor people have on our economy when there are fewer and fewer jobs that they're qualified for?

If this is a humanitarian effort, then why don't we just annex their countries and be done with it?

Is this still some mis-guided attempt to depress the wages of American workers to prove that capitalism doesn't work?

Are you aware that the majority of second generation domestic born children of legal immigrants are largely social conservatives who vote for Republicans?

Trump offered amnesty and citizenship for all the DACA kids in exchange for border wall funding, but your party's leadership wouldn't take the deal.

I honestly don't understand your thought process and would like an explanation. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but have you ever considered what I asked you about because they're NOT rhetorical questions?

SpaceNut · 2018-12-27 09:33:08

speak English, far too many refuse to even try to learn, and many don't have the equivalent of a 6th grade education

We have that problem with Americans in the large cities already...and as far as work thats what they want is steady work...

The technology thing is also non starter as I have worked in the electronics field cutting edge next to those that had issues with the english language but since I could understand them it was possible to work through it as they learned the language.

I was also on that cutting edge of robotics replacing humans for manual labor in the factory and the more units you put in the more people you need to maintain them, need to construct them and so on....as it just changes lower paid people to ones that earn even more..which is working the opossite direction for maximum profit...as the production lines run even less time to make the numbers of build and are removed once done.

Trump took away the amnesty that they already had and protection under DACA....

Walls or fence are defeated and it takes more to slow the invasion as Trump labeled it. Its technology, people (BCP) and ports of entry that are needed to be added to control the influx along with a buffer zone where the nation of mexico plus America on bothsides are doing the same thing to control the numbers.

Annexing nations really....
As far as corrupt nations of the central group after mexico; we have taken out the leader of Panama but is it, lack of a leader or is it there own corrupt people that are the issues our lack of an army to efforce rules.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-27 12:16:11

Here are current mexico border wall length related images.

https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/How_ … _border%3F

The border the U.S. shares with Mexico is about 2,000 miles long. The total length of the continental border is 3,145 kilometers (1,954 mi). A border wall of different types of fence spans about 670 miles with current law calling for 700 miles of fence mandated and “we have only 36.in the legislation mandating a fence along the U.S.-Mexico border is Section 102(b) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRIRA).

So what was the schedule for the fencing install?

Its not like we do not know where the smugglers are coming through.....

We looked at every mile of the U.S.-Mexico border. Now you can, too – right here. incharge

There is an issue when the law is not funded, that is the fault of the governments budgeting and those in cotrol at the time to not fund it. Then there is the question as to whom budget is the building of it within.

So what do we have?

Primary borders between the U.S. and Mexico are protected by many types of barrier. In some areas, there is nothing. In other places materials range from three-wire cattle fence, railroad rail, concrete filled thin wall with six-inch steel tube of staggered height, corrugated steel plates, square tubing, or even crushed cars,.

Secondary borders, which are in place in some border areas, but not all, include: climb-proof expanded metal fence, climb-proof chain-link fence, or concrete column or bollard barrier.

With "the vast majority of that was single-layer — one line of fencing designed to keep either pedestrians or vehicles from crossing into the United States, according to a Government Accountability Office report."

SpaceNut · 2018-12-28 21:19:40

Trump is not understanding bipartisonship and is still trying to rule as a tyrant threatening to close the boders if he does not get his wall....It is estimated that shutting down the border could cost the economy up to $1 billion a day.

If trump wants border security the wall will not gain him that and while posting many military to the border would be a better option to help in capture. We need ICE to do the job it was always needed to have done which is capture and deport those that are here beyond there stay which are not in the DACA registry..

SpaceNut · 2018-12-30 21:05:17

President Trump threatened to shut down the entire southern border with Mexico and cut off aid to Central American countries if his demands for border wall funding aren't met in the coming weeks. Seems he is confused with th closing the southern border, which would dramatically impact trade and people living on the border, would be a "profit making operation." slight problem with what a negative means....

"Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador are doing nothing for the United States but taking our money. We will be cutting off all aid to these 3 countries. Then hand them the money when they get to the wall to go back home rather than there government....

He did say he would own this..that Mexico would pay for it... So why are we the one's paying....

Nice wall being built it would seem....at the rate its contracted on a schedule hopefully

SpaceNut · 2018-12-30 21:14:15

Remember the reason we are here in the first place is due to Trumps executive pen....The Trump administration tried to dismantle DACA, an Obama-era program that shields approximately 800,000 young undocumented immigrants from deportation, in the fall of 2017, but a prolonged court battle has kept the initiative alive.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina urged the White House and Democrats to consider supporting what he called a "breakthrough" compromise on immigration that would allow President Trump to secure his $5 billion demand for border security funds and also codify protections for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) and Temporary Protected Status (TPS) holders.

I think this would be a start but the documentation of them seems to be missing....

There also seems to be no meantion of the moneys funding schedule of use....as $5 billion in funding for border security does not mean wall....

SpaceNut · 2019-01-01 21:41:23

The 2018 budget on the border security is $2.6 billion, of which I think $1.6 billion was for the wall.

The shutdown which falls on Trump is that he wants all or nothing and when delivered a bill he will not sign it..throws a temper tantrum and shut down some departments and agencies over Christmas. Senate Democrats and Republicans agreed on $1.6 billion for border barriers and security for 2019 just proir to the shutdown beginning and now Republican plan would deliver $5 billion for Trump’s long-promised U.S.-Mexico border wall by dividing the expenditure over two years — $2.5 billion in 2019 and $2.5 billion in 2020.

SpaceNut · 2019-01-03 21:02:35

The wall construction with the previous budget dollars of 1.6 billion of which that was all he had wanted would have built just 65 miles of it.....I think there is a contractor problem for the cost....

kbd512 · 2019-01-03 23:26:59

SpaceNut,

Obama's temper tantrum cost American tax payers trillions. What happened to all the money for those shovel ready jobs? This job actually requires using shovels. Where was all this outrage over the money that was spent (somehow, we just have no idea where or how, but it's still gone) by the previous administration? When the Democrats spent government money like it was going out of style, and I guess in the one-party socialist utopia that you thought Hillary would usher in that money would be out of style, you didn't make a peep. Now you're worried about what a border wall costs? Please.

We spend hundreds of billions feeding / clothing / housing these illegal aliens every year and they send their paychecks back home. When that stops, then they start paying for it, even if we have to first use our own money to begin that process. We're already spending money hand over fist on illegals and nobody says a word about that. Since each of these aliens is supposedly a net addition to our economy, we paid for it by getting their labor according to Democrat Party logic.

If you want to annex these countries that are sending their people over here in droves and stop funding the border wall, I'll support that position. Anything short of annexation and I'll demand that these countries start taking care of their own people and stop blaming the US for every one of their self-created and perpetuated problems. If the entire population of South and Central America has to move to America to prevent themselves from starving to death, then something is fundamentally wrong with both the people who live in those countries who voted for the clowns who represent them and the clowns who represent them.

Border wall and security funding or annexation, by force if necessary, of these failed states. Pick one. I'm 100% on board with either solution, but this constant compromise nonsense only serves to enrich unscrupulous people who exploit illegal aliens and compromise the integrity of both this country and the countries that these people fled from. Either way, we get their people and their resources. I'm in favor of the annexation option so we get all of it, possibly without firing a shot if the people living there are sick of their government starving them to death.

Why has nobody supported the annexation option if we're just going to wind up with all their people and resources anyway?

I just want to fast track that process and be done with it. I'm sick of all this wishy-washy nonsense. Do or do not. There is no try.

We're always looking for another country to put a new military base in and our military always needs more human resources. That was the best part of the US Navy. No matter which country we went to, it was almost guaranteed that we had several people on board who could speak the language. Communication is pretty fundamental to understanding. It's impossible to learn the language of every person who comes to America, which is why we speak English, but having bi-lingual personnel to staff the military is a good idea. I never thought I'd put my Japanese courses from school to any use until I was stationed in Japan, for example.

SpaceNut · 2019-01-04 18:03:40

They can not collect anything without a Social security number and thats where the trouble starts as it was never intended to be an Identification card used by non americans, non citizens...to which it was never intended to be used for the same reason to pay in any taxes by that same group...There should have been a seperate system for those actions....whereby the taxes from that group should be used to fund there own kind not the real americans...

The next part of the use of ssn by the non group is that we are not verifying what is happening when you see the number has more than 1 location of use, multiple companies ect as these are dead give aways just like when a number has no entries but they claim to have some income...

So how many installation do we have in the nations which are coming to us? If zero you just highlighted what should be changed..

The northern border is just as open and the only time there was any invasion it was during the vietnam era and it was going out. There is no such activity as seen by the southern border...Why is that? I do agree that we should be putting limits on what number will be allowed to cross as we need more judges and patrols to process this group of non citizens. Then we need an indoctrium location for where they will stay as they learn to be american's not remain what they were when they came here..

Currently even a barbed wired wall is enough with increased patrols to slow the invasion and this could be done several times in close proximity to give people more of the chance to capture and retain them...

I do not remember the laws being passed for the section of the wall that was not built (700 miles) and I am wondering about the language used for how to funds its building if there is any at all within its bill.

SpaceNut · 2019-01-05 20:13:34

The Trump shutdown is now in week 3 with no end in sight even after meetings as border security is not a wall, fence ect again demanding $5.6 billion for border security, which he declared to be the minimum figure he needed to build the southern border wall. All while Transportation Security Administration (TSA) acknowledged an increase in the number of its employees calling off work during the partial government shutdown. Employees at the agency are expected to work without pay during the shutdown because their jobs are considered essential. I hope we have not forgotten 911 was onboard airplanes when we were very lacking in security and when we doi not have the people but keep running its going to happen...

th?id=OIP.RdmHhL04P6IdoX-CdQU-BwHaFj&w=137&h=105&c=8&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

th?id=OVP.m1cDVwS8w9EWgmJ8OC5XqQHgFo&w=195&h=108&c=7&rs=1&p=0&pid=1.7

A Wall Alone Can’t Secure the Border, No Matter Who Pays for It

SpaceNut · 2019-01-05 21:00:41

If this article has any truth to it this will be the best reason to not cross the border any longer....
Mexico launches plan to stimulate US border economy

The plan for the border region is part of what Lopez Obrador calls "curtains of development" to shore up different corridors of the country so that Mexicans stay rather than migrating in search of better economic prospects.
Mexico will slash income and corporate taxes to 20 percent from 30 percent for 43 municipalities in six states just south of the U.S., while halving to 8 percent the value-added tax in the region. Business leaders and union representatives have also agreed to double the minimum wage along the border, to 176.2 pesos a day, the equivalent of $9.07 at current exchange rates.

You might even see Americana crossing the border for some of those jobs as that is more than they make now...

SpaceNut · 2019-01-07 21:16:11

State of emergency...Where?
Trump aides lay foundation for emergency order to build wall, saying border is in ‘crisis’, officials made an urgent case Monday that the situation at the U.S.-Mexico border has reached a crisis level, but there is none so to build border wall as a national emergency, Trump would need to tap existing military budget...

If anything here is a section that does not meet the 3 wall/fence criteria needing replacement upgrades
BBRWUz8.img?h=373&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=t&l=f&x=2355&y=1619

More falsehoods were said about the past presidents as well by Trump,... All living former presidents refute Trump's claim they privately voiced support for border wall...

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