Space X Mission at risk?

louis · 2018-12-27 15:33:13

The BBC, along with CNN and several other media outlets is a key globalist mouthpiece.

If I were Musk, I'd be a bit concerned as I think this may mark the beginning of a campaign by globalists to stop the Space X Mission to Mars:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46364179

Both Obama and HRC were anti-space programmes because they came from the radical Democrat tradition that argued poverty should be addressed before space.

It's important to note that the BBC, in their usual fashion, have picked out one criiticsm from many and then created a headline to undermine belief in the potential of Mars settlement. They have done this for a reason...expect more in this vein.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-27 15:52:28

Louis not political at all as its Bill Anders, lunar module pilot of Apollo 8, which is a member that only did the spin around it. He was part of the crew of Apollo 8 that spent 20 hours in orbit, before returning to Earth. He's a "big supporter" of the "remarkable" unmanned programmes, "mainly because they're much cheaper".

So just a wet blanket as he did not get to set foot on the moon.....

louis · 2018-12-27 16:23:40

Yes, I wasn't suggesting Anders' comments were political...suggesting the BBC's comments were highly political and may well herald the beginning of an anti-Mars campaign. I've seen how the BBC operate in lots of different contexts. You can tell when they are getting a bone between their teeth and are ready to start gnawing on it. If you start getting similar stories on CNN, in the NYT, WSJ, Guardian and Financial Times, you'll know something's up.

SpaceNut wrote:

Louis not political at all as its Bill Anders, lunar module pilot of Apollo 8, which is a member that only did the spin around it. He was part of the crew of Apollo 8 that spent 20 hours in orbit, before returning to Earth. He's a "big supporter" of the "remarkable" unmanned programmes, "mainly because they're much cheaper".
So just a wet blanket as he did not get to set foot on the moon.....

Void · 2018-12-27 16:47:35

The ruckus began just after the Falcon Heavy flew.

I noticed it as well. People like Peter Zeihan gave the opinion that Tesla was going to fail, and that would probably take SpaceX down as well.

It hasn't happened yet.

They are not taking on ordinary people however. We will see what happens.

Here is a possible example of the game being played:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aer … it-someone
So, this is one of their cute little games:
Quote:

The chance that SpaceX’s planned Starlink satellite constellation will cause an injury or death is 45 percent every six years, according to an IEEE Spectrum analysis of figures submitted by the company to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission.

But then you might want to ask yourself if it would be worth it to have the USA freeway system if; "A chance exists that it will cause an injury or death is 45 percent every six years"? Well then should we shut down the freeway system? Perspective.

If they can get it up and running, (Starlink), over the next several years, they will have quite a lot of money I understand.
However if they do, then they can provide superior latency conditions, then they can sell the services to people who trade in trading markets. Tiny improvements in communications lags could be huge money.

So, you can guess that those who don't own Starlink, but some other slower service don't want to see it happen, unless they can confiscate it by some means.

Political, financial, and perhaps literal sabotage can be expected.

And then keep in mind that news organizations make money by inflaming a divide between two parties of view, and oscillating between the two poles. I think some spankings are in order. If only we could entertain ourselves by that on them, for lowering our quality of life for money.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-27 17:23:13)

Oldfart1939 · 2018-12-27 18:33:07

This is just some angst from the anti space people. More likely culprits are found inside NASA within the planetary protection circle.

louis · 2018-12-27 18:46:50

Good comments there, Void.

If there is a campaign developing against Musk, it will attack all aspects of his entrepreneurship and enterprise.

It might well be Starlink that is their real worry - an internet system that isn't located in any "surface" nation will be of particular worry - it could mean free speech for the masses.

But the thought of a Free Mars may well also be a concern. If things were done differently but well on Mars it would put a constant question mark over the legitimacy of governments on Earth.

Void wrote:

The ruckus began just after the Falcon Heavy flew.
I noticed it as well. People like Peter Zeihan gave the opinion that Tesla was going to fail, and that would probably take SpaceX down as well.
It hasn't happened yet.
They are not taking on ordinary people however. We will see what happens.
Here is a possible example of the game being played:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aer … it-someone
So, this is one of their cute little games:
Quote:
The chance that SpaceX’s planned Starlink satellite constellation will cause an injury or death is 45 percent every six years, according to an IEEE Spectrum analysis of figures submitted by the company to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission.
But then you might want to ask yourself if it would be worth it to have the USA freeway system if; "A chance exists that it will cause an injury or death is 45 percent every six years"? Well then should we shut down the freeway system? Perspective.

If they can get it up and running, (Starlink), over the next several years, they will have quite a lot of money I understand.
However if they do, then they can provide superior latency conditions, then they can sell the services to people who trade in trading markets. Tiny improvements in communications lags could be huge money.
So, you can guess that those who don't own Starlink, but some other slower service don't want to see it happen, unless they can confiscate it by some means.
Political, financial, and perhaps literal sabotage can be expected.
And then keep in mind that news organizations make money by inflaming a divide between two parties of view, and oscillating between the two poles. I think some spankings are in order. If only we could entertain ourselves by that on them, for lowering our quality of life for money.

Done.

kbd512 · 2018-12-27 19:26:13

The talking heads are talking about things they know very little about? So... What else is new?

louis · 2018-12-27 20:25:42

These aren't just talking heads - they are the tips of very powerful tentacles.

kbd512 wrote:

The talking heads are talking about things they know very little about? So... What else is new?

louis · 2018-12-27 20:39:32

... and to add...Musk I think is a very smooth operator, despite his seemingly erratic pronouncements from time to time.

What I see is one of those rare - very rare - creatures who can move easily between the visionary element (Mars colonisation/terraformation) , creativity (Paypal software), problem solving (getting the Falcon 9 up there) , commercial operations (so many but Starlink is a really big one coming up) and politics (the way he navigates the relationship with NASA,the way he plays State politics). Such a combination of skills

Musk is really the phenomenon of our age - perhaps all the ages, when you view his achievements in the round.

They are indeed taking a lot on if they take him on but so much of what he does threatens the globalist elite - they might have no alternative to taking him on. If all of Musk's projects succeeded it would mean the break up of transport monopolies, of energy monopolies, of the internet, of world government ambitions...it would mean that NASA was essentially revealed as a fraudulent operation...it would mean all governments on Earth came under intense scrutiny.

Ultimately, on Mars, humans might create a new community where war, economic insecurity, unemployment, disease, child poverty, depression and discrimination were all things of the past. That would be a mighty challenge in itself to the globalist elite on Earth and reason enough for them to snuff it all out at birth.

kbd512 · 2018-12-27 21:17:28

Louis,

He's an important personality in a few high-payoff industries, but I'm not sure he's any more influential than the people who gave us solid state computers and jet engines since they're the ones who made his accomplishments possible to begin with. It should also be noted that he's far from the first to achieve vertical landing and the accuracy required was demonstrated decades earlier. He scaled up those good ideas and made them profitable, which is a major accomplishment that deserves high praise.

Our current crop of globalists are so incompetent that they're more of a threat to themselves than anyone else, let alone someone as intelligent as Elon Musk. If you think he's breaking any monopolies, I assure you that he's not, mostly because they clearly don't exist or his companies wouldn't exist.

NASA has done all the risky technology development that SpaceX, nearly everyone in the industrialized world in point of fact, benefits from every single day they're counted amongst the living. SpaceX has merely taken technology that was developed by NASA and their contractors and made it affordable down to the university level. In the near future, many of these new technologies will become affordable to the high school science program and individual. That will be a game changer... when it happens. Anyway, he's far from the only player in the market at present and there's nothing magical about going to Mars. Someone will either decide they want to do it or they won't. It's that simple.

If you think war or poverty or disease will magically disappear when we put humans in an environment far more inhospitable than the most uninhabitable places here on Earth, then you're living in a dream world. Going to Mars won't change human nature any more than going to the moon changed human nature. The war in Viet Nam didn't stop for an instant merely because humans set foot on the moon.

louis · 2018-12-27 21:28:38

Musk correctly identified getting off Earth as the next huge revolution after the neolithic revolution and the industrial revolution. So. I agree with him - if he succeeds then he will be recognised as one of the maybe top ten figures in human history. If he succeeds he will eclipse people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Stuff like who was first to achieve vertical landing will be just footnotes (anyway I think that was achieved back in the 60s but was discontinued by NASA).

Your comments about Musk's predecessors are absurd - like claiming Edison could never have invented the light bulb if it hadn't been for all those ancient Greeks rubbing amber.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
He's an important personality in a few high-payoff industries, but I'm not sure he's any more influential than the people who gave us solid state computers and jet engines since they're the ones who made his accomplishments possible to begin with. It should also be noted that he's far from the first to achieve vertical landing and the accuracy required was demonstrated decades earlier. He scaled up those good ideas and made them profitable, which is a major accomplishment that deserves high praise.
Our current crop of globalists are so incompetent that they're more of a threat to themselves than anyone else, let alone someone as intelligent as Elon Musk. If you think he's breaking any monopolies, I assure you that he's not, mostly because they clearly don't exist or his companies wouldn't exist.
NASA has done all the risky technology development that SpaceX, nearly everyone in the industrialized world in point of fact, benefits from every single day they're counted amongst the living. SpaceX has merely taken technology that was developed by NASA and their contractors and made it affordable down to the university level. In the near future, many of these new technologies will become affordable to the high school science program and individual. That will be a game changer... when it happens. Anyway, he's far from the only player in the market at present and there's nothing magical about going to Mars. Someone will either decide they want to do it or they won't. It's that simple.
If you think war or poverty or disease will magically disappear when we put humans in an environment far more inhospitable than the most uninhabitable places here on Earth, then you're living in a dream world. Going to Mars won't change human nature any more than going to the moon changed human nature. The war in Viet Nam didn't stop for an instant merely because humans set foot on the moon.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-27 21:33:58

Technology buying to get started and getting engineering help is what was done to leverage his position thus far.

The supposed monopoly busting still is not happening as what is produced is for the rich...

That means that Bigelow will be the inflateable hotel boss...

JoshNH4H · 2018-12-27 23:17:22

Ah yes, the globalists

But consider this:

You are British, which is to say you are a foreigner
This forum is run by the Mars Society, a global organization with chapters in 13 countries
Elon Musk is an immigrant and a billionaire with citizenship in three countries: The United States, Canada, and South Africa
Mr. Musk's various businesses have customers, employees, suppliers, and investors across the world

Seems like you're not clear on who the globalists are or what that term means!

kbd512 · 2018-12-28 01:06:20

Louis,

Whether you believe it or not, technological development across all of human history is what makes a better tomorrow possible. Hero worship aside, I see SpaceX and Elon Musk as a means to an end and nothing more. Elon Musk sees the utility of money and employing other people in the same light. It's not charity. It's doing something he believes is worth doing. I happen to agree with him and his sentiment that putting money under your bed is of little lasting benefit to anyone, including the person stuffing money under their mattress. I don't care if I leave this world a billionaire or flat broke as long as I achieve what I wish to achieve before I'm dead. In the end, "the end" is no different for anyone regardless of how much money they have when they die. We're here for a brief period of time and then we're not, so we may as well make as much progress as we can to leave a better future to our children.

louis · 2018-12-28 06:18:40

I have a very clear view that globalism is about a no borders world, which is something the radical left and billionaire capitalists tend to agree on.

Not everything that globalism has brought us has been bad but a lot of it has, for ordinary people in the more advanced economies.

Musk I see as a neutral. Yes, he takes advantage of certain aspects of globalism, yes he doesn't really have a clear national identity himself, but no he has never been an ideologue advocating globalism. The fact that he quite happy to work constructively with Trump is evidence of that I would say.

JoshNH4H wrote:

Ah yes, the globalists
But consider this:
You are British, which is to say you are a foreigner
This forum is run by the Mars Society, a global organization with chapters in 13 countries
Elon Musk is an immigrant and a billionaire with citizenship in three countries: The United States, Canada, and South Africa
Mr. Musk's various businesses have customers, employees, suppliers, and investors across the world
Seems like you're not clear on who the globalists are or what that term means!

SpaceNut · 2018-12-28 10:10:55

Now I see why the confusion with multi citizenship and the concept of Globalism equals "no Borders" as that is not true as its more about how we treat one another as equals (removing Racism). It is the attitude or policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations (Nationalism walls and borders of Isolationism). Where the idea that events in one country cannot be separated from those in another and that economic as well as foreign policy (not the US police force but UN coalitions) should be planned in an international way.

RobertDyck · 2018-12-28 11:41:28

JoshNH4H wrote:

Elon Musk is an immigrant and a billionaire with citizenship in three countries: The United States, Canada, and South Africa

Really? Yet he wouldn't hire me. I applied for work in I.T., the field of my university education and the field I have worked since February 1981. I was worried SpaceX would be worried about ITAR restrictions. That's US law: International Trade in Arms Reduction. All rockets including the Space Shuttle were classified as ballistic missiles, so restricted under ITAR. Has anyone told astronauts that they're riding a ballistic missile? I know, Redstone, Atlas A, and Titan II were ballistic missiles, used to launch Mercury and Gemini capsules. Yet still, did anyone tell Apollo or Space Shuttle astronauts that they were flying on ballistic missiles? Anyway, in my job application I pointed out that I had worked in the US twice, both times with TN work visa (Temporary Nafta). The first time I worked for Allied Signal Fibres in Virginia, where Spectra fibres were created (a chemical plant) for use in US Army flack jackets and personal body armour. (Yes, American spelling is "armor"). The second time I worked for the government of Miami-Dade County, solely responsible for the computer system for one tax. For that job I got "reliability" security clearance from the FBI. Since then I have bid on a few NASA contracts, got on their short list for two. One bid to replace the computer for the diagnostic workstation for communication equipment on Space Shuttle Orbiters. For that one I had to receive detailed technical information for the Space Shuttle Orbiter equipment, so got Canadian federal government equivalent for ITAR security clearance, then with that got US government ITAR clearance. I didn't get someone else to do this for me, I got actual ITAR clearance to receive Shuttle Orbiter data in my house, and I did it myself. With that, SpaceX HR department did not reject my application right away. But I didn't get an answer either. After Elon gave his first presentation about his Mars plans at the International Astronautical Conference in Mexico, he took questions. One person asked why he doesn't hire non-Americans. His answer was ITAR. Two days later I received my rejection letter. HR said I could re-apply once I become a permanent resident of the US. But there's a problem with that: I can't. I checked, the only way for me to immigrate to the US is if an American employer sponsors me. There are other ways for individuals from 3rd world countries, but no other way for anyone from Canada. And if I accept a job with some other employer, they will require me to sign a contract stating I will not work for anyone but them. That's what happened the last 2 times I worked in the US. So if SpaceX really wants to hire me, the first step is for them to hire me. Then they have to sponsor me to move to the US. There isn't anything before that. There's nothing I can do. I'm screwed!

So effectively Elon personally rejected my job application. Yet he has Canadian citizenship?!?

SpaceNut · 2018-12-28 14:15:46

I tried to Tell Louis about that Here in another topic in which he went the direction of taking what might be considered ITAR materials of Itellectural content on a thumb drive and going else where....that's not cool when it can effect the US military....

louis · 2018-12-28 15:50:08

It might not be cool but it is possible. Moreover, we really don't know how Space X works. For all we know Space X USA is buying designs from "foreign" companies (ie Musk controlled companies outside the USA). We just don't know.

My point is simply that Musk wields some influence over the US government. Would you really want to lose Musk's input to your economy either by forcing him to flee abroad or locking him up for 20 years for some alleged offence?

I think the answer of a sensible government must be no.

When you are playing at that sort of level it's all about relative power, relative risk. There is no doubt that there are forces within the USA who want to damage Musk and his enterprises. The reason they haven't been able to do so, so far, is because Musk holds a lot of cards himself.

SpaceNut wrote:

I tried to Tell Louis about that Here in another topic in which he went the direction of taking what might be considered ITAR materials of Itellectural content on a thumb drive and going else where....that's not cool when it can effect the US military....

Last edited by louis (2018-12-28 16:51:46)

Oldfart1939 · 2018-12-28 16:20:27

Just to clarify a bit, re: "Globalism." This generally is applied politically to the International Banking community, as well as the Multi-National corporations and the associated Billionaires. Not to the other poor shmucks who work for a living.

louis · 2018-12-28 16:50:45

It also applies, I would say, to those in politics who facilitate the desired objectives of the globalist billionaires and bankers. This tends currently to be the left (not all the left, but most), centre and centre-right politicians. Globalism has a technocratic, anti-democratic character; it favours free flows of capital, labour, goods and services across borders; it opposes strong border control; it favours mass immigration; and it favours political correctness as the ideology best able to weaken the resistance of nations and peoples to globalism. Left politicians in advanced economies benefit hugely from migrant voters.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Just to clarify a bit, re: "Globalism." This generally is applied politically to the International Banking community, as well as the Multi-National corporations and the associated Billionaires. Not to the other poor shmucks who work for a living.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-28 17:16:47

The rich politicians are more like dictators rather than for the people leaders and are more interested in lining there coffers. They look to take from the poor and say there is nothing favored for free keep them down.

This is where we are treading into pretend Democracy....

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#1 2018-12-27 15:33:13

Space X Mission at risk?

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