A City Rises on the Plain...

SpaceNut · 2018-12-13 18:50:22

Thou they will still be bringing there selective bagage with them....I have had the oportunity to be around numerous exchange students, H1 b visa employees and so much more including muslim. Much like the ISS they must work for the first thing common good which is in support of each other regardless of any of those other things in steady condition of survival of all.

louis · 2018-12-13 19:15:47

I think the Viking 1 Lander site is probably about 600 kms or more away from the Sagan City site I proposed, so the two don't really correlate.

The main problem with the Viking 1 Lander site is that water content in the regolith is a lot lower - I think more like 3% than 6%. But of course if you built a mission around atmospheric water extraction, that wouldn't be an important factor...so location depends on the mission architecture.

I never appointed myself leader of the fictional/inspirational Sagan City. I am very happy for people to have their own ideas about development. I intend to press on with my own timeline but would be very interested to hear how other people see things.

"power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services" have all been extensively discussed here, but there is always room for a fresh perspective.

If I was a real CEO of a real Sagan City my view would be "Happy to appoint this person and see how they perform in line with the overall plan, but they don't get complete autonomy. Quality control and adherence to the overall development programme are important."

I agree with you that: "It is to be expected that the economic needs of the people of Sagan City will inspire others outside the City to supply those needs." The colony will (or should) move from a kind of military-style planning regime in the first few decades towards a much more sophisticated allocation of resources through a combination of planning and free market responses. There's no particular reasons for instance why Sagan City's food needs couldn't be provided by private farmers or firms working out of their own agrihabs leased from the Mars Development Corporation. Centralised planning might be restricted to ensuring there are sufficient emergency food stocks in place.

You indicated you are picking up from my vision the impression that Sagan City itself would become a cultural centre with living facilities attractive to visitors from elsewhere on Mars and from elsewhere in the Solar System. Absolutely. For me it is the cultural significance of Mars that is all important. It should aim to be the premier location in the solar system for the arts, for education, for philosophy, for research and for deep thinking about scientific problems as well as being the place that develops robotics and AI to be servants of humanity. It is a well known phenomenon in urban economics that what attracts people to move into previously run-down areas is - not just the cheap property - but also key attractants like some evidence of artistic and cultural life (galleries, theatre, cinemas, concert halls etc). Then there are things like parks, leisure centres, schools, shops, bars and so on. Mars is a long way away! We need to make Mars a really attractive place if we are going to create a viable human society there.

So, for me, creating ELEs (Earth Like Environments - paraterraformed spaces where people can exericise in what feels like an Earth-type of environment), sports centres, sculpture parks, art galleries, cinemas, interesting shops etc are all v. important, And that all needs to be in the context of a free speech environment where people won't be penalised for expressing their views.

The eventual aim must be to able to say in truth: this is a fantastic place to prosper and raise a family. This is the new land of opportunity.

It's all of a piece: vision, culture, technology. The vision defines the culture, and the technology allows the culture to exist.

There's no point in going to Mars to make a second rate society!

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,
I have updated Post #21 to show the area and boundaries you have defined.
Please note that for simplicity of reference for future inquiries, I have selected the Viking I landing site as the center of the circle.
Please advise if this is not acceptable.
My objective is to remove ambiguity from decisions made to bring Sagan City into existence.
***
I'd like to move on to another focus .... now that you have chosen a site and a set of boundaries for the city, will you agree to allow others to develop concepts on the surface of Mars without interference from you?
You have reserved Pi * 100 Kilometers square kilometers for your proposed city. That is an area large enough to hold millions of people in time.
If you accept my suggestion, you will accept that others can develop other areas on Mars without interference from you.
It is to be expected that the economic needs of the people of Sagan City will inspire others outside the City to supply those needs.
Examples are power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services.
I am picking up from your vision the impression that Sagan City itself would become a cultural center with living facilities attractive to visitors from elsewhere n Mars and from elsewhere in the Solar System.
If you agree to this proposal, you will free up opportunities for others to concentrate on the delivery of products and services needed by residents of the City itself.
Reminder: to reach Post #21 above, you can search for SearchTerm: and :SaganCityAttributesOf with Author tahanson43206

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-14 07:23:52

Louis,

Per your clarification, I have removed reference to the Viking I landing site from the Attributes post.

Thanks for your additional thoughts on the topic of Sagan City.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-15 21:06:41

Hi Louis,

I am pulling this small section of your longer post which begins with discussion of the Viking I site.

Would you agree that you DID come up with the name of the proposed city?
Would you agree that you published the name on the NewMars forum?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify a location of the proposed city on the surface of Mars?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify dimensions (boundaries) for Sagan City?

I accept that you have stated repeatedly that you do not want to serve as "leader" or "mayor" of Sagan City, and now I am wondering if you do not wish to be recognized as "founder" of Sagan City. Your description of the city as fictional signals (to me at least) that you do not believe the city can come into being in actuality, and that it will remain forever a science fiction fantasy shared with readers of the NewMars forum, soon to fade into the oblivion from which SpaceNut occasionally rescues topics he considers worthy of another look.

(th)

louis wrote:

I never appointed myself leader of the fictional/inspirational Sagan City. I am very happy for people to have their own ideas about development. I intend to press on with my own timeline but would be very interested to hear how other people see things.
"power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services" have all been extensively discussed here, but there is always room for a fresh perspective.
If I was a real CEO of a real Sagan City my view would be "Happy to appoint this person and see how they perform in line with the overall plan, but they don't get complete autonomy. Quality control and adherence to the overall development programme are important."

louis · 2018-12-16 07:40:37

Well in this context I did but I don't know if was first to come up with it...I've certainly started threads on this sort of discussion before so someone else might have suggested the name, though it is quite likely I did, since I certainly like the alliterative sound of it. I can't recall to be honest. Sagan along with Musk would be a front runner I think in any poll, along with Ares and Aldrin. I did suggest Aresopolis I think. Anyway I think Sagan City is definitely the best because it sounds good, it honours a pioneer in Mars studies and it specifically references the first person to seriously propose terraformation of Mars, which I believed should be the ultimate goal.

I suggested a specific location for the city, though noted you would need to research that a lot more. There are for instances underground depressions in the Chryse Planitia area that you would want to be assured you weren't landing on top of. I've nothing against the Viking 1 Lander site as the centre of the city but have cautioned we would need to investigate further to establish water supply in the area. It may be quite low which would suggest you would have to draw your water from the atmosphere and plan accordingly.

I don't think I agreed to specify the boundaries...but stated that a Mars Development Corporation would probably use some sort of indicative boundaries. My general view though is that they are not necessary at least for the first few decades, with the population being so low.

I think fiction can be inspirational as to reality. I don't think my vision of Sagan City will be realised in every detail, but you never know - someone may read about it and be inspired, and that person may one day be a key player on Mars.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Hi Louis,
I am pulling this small section of your longer post which begins with discussion of the Viking I site.
Would you agree that you DID come up with the name of the proposed city?
Would you agree that you published the name on the NewMars forum?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify a location of the proposed city on the surface of Mars?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify dimensions (boundaries) for Sagan City?
I accept that you have stated repeatedly that you do not want to serve as "leader" or "mayor" of Sagan City, and now I am wondering if you do not wish to be recognized as "founder" of Sagan City. Your description of the city as fictional signals (to me at least) that you do not believe the city can come into being in actuality, and that it will remain forever a science fiction fantasy shared with readers of the NewMars forum, soon to fade into the oblivion from which SpaceNut occasionally rescues topics he considers worthy of another look.
(th)
louis wrote:
I never appointed myself leader of the fictional/inspirational Sagan City. I am very happy for people to have their own ideas about development. I intend to press on with my own timeline but would be very interested to hear how other people see things.
"power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services" have all been extensively discussed here, but there is always room for a fresh perspective.
If I was a real CEO of a real Sagan City my view would be "Happy to appoint this person and see how they perform in line with the overall plan, but they don't get complete autonomy. Quality control and adherence to the overall development programme are important."

SpaceNut · 2018-12-16 10:30:29

Alot of what is here could be spun into a Mars novel...and by blending in a bit more of the other parts of topics would sell.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-16 12:54:37

For Louis:

I've updated the Attributes post to remove the label founder. You are now listed as "Suggested by:"

For SpaceNut ... I'm in support of your suggestion to Louis... This could be a popular book, if Louis is inspired to combine his vision capability with the complementary hard science and engineering insights provided by members of this forum.

I regret the loss of Sagan City as a viable real planet possibility, but welcome the possibility of a science fiction book using the theme.

To see the updated attributes post:
Use SearchTerm: and :SaganCity author tahanson43206

(th)

louis · 2018-12-16 14:57:10

I really don't think of my timeline as "sci-fi"...I'd call it spec-fi - speculative fiction. It's by definition fiction because it hasn't happened yet and even if in outline it was an accurate prediction, it includes events that we can never be certain will happen. Probably HG Wells' "The Shape of Things to Come" is a good example of spec-fi, though I'd like to think my timeline is more rooted in reality than his book was.

The thought of turning the timeline into a book has crossed my mind. I might have a go...let's see how it goes.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis:
I've updated the Attributes post to remove the label founder. You are now listed as "Suggested by:"
For SpaceNut ... I'm in support of your suggestion to Louis... This could be a popular book, if Louis is inspired to combine his vision capability with the complementary hard science and engineering insights provided by members of this forum.
I regret the loss of Sagan City as a viable real planet possibility, but welcome the possibility of a science fiction book using the theme.
To see the updated attributes post:
Use SearchTerm: and :SaganCity author tahanson43206
(th)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-16 16:29:40

Mix in the funding stuff that you have and its going to become very real to the reader.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-17 08:41:19

Louis,

Would you be willing to release the Sagan City you created to the Open Source community?

In several posts in this series, you have indicated willingness to encourage others to work with the concept.

It would be only a small step for you to declare the Sagan City you created, at coordinates of 34.58 degrees West and 21 degrees North
to be released to the Open Source community for development without your further guidance or direction.

Please be specific in your reply, because ambiguity is destructive. Potential contributors will (or may) worry about your prior claim, so your gift of complete release is necessary to increase the probability someone (or perhaps several people) will decide to take on the challenge of treating Sagan City as a "real" concept which can be implemented on Mars.

At the beginning of this series, I offered the observation that a city is a social construct. Businesses (are said to) hate uncertainty, and I would guess that individuals may share this point of view. The people needed to build upon your initial concept would include architects and city planners. There is a need for people familiar with the law, and ideally, practiced in land claims. The need (I see) for the immediate next stage is to secure recognition of the location you have specified as legally binding. The human institution best suited (as far as I can see) for legal recognition of a claim of land on Mars is the United Nations.

Persons with a level of comfort working with national representatives to the United Nations are needed to move this project forward.

With a bit of finesse, Mars can be placed on a path toward recognition as a Nation in the United Nations, thus increasing chances of a amicable future for relationships between residents of the planet and residents of Earth, and reducing chances of conflict due to misguided aggression by groups who might perceive a potential advantage by use of force.

(th)

louis · 2018-12-17 17:44:33

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,
Would you be willing to release the Sagan City you created to the Open Source community?
In several posts in this series, you have indicated willingness to encourage others to work with the concept.
It would be only a small step for you to declare the Sagan City you created, at coordinates of 34.58 degrees West and 21 degrees North
to be released to the Open Source community for development without your further guidance or direction.
Please be specific in your reply, because ambiguity is destructive. Potential contributors will (or may) worry about your prior claim, so your gift of complete release is necessary to increase the probability someone (or perhaps several people) will decide to take on the challenge of treating Sagan City as a "real" concept which can be implemented on Mars.
At the beginning of this series, I offered the observation that a city is a social construct. Businesses (are said to) hate uncertainty, and I would guess that individuals may share this point of view. The people needed to build upon your initial concept would include architects and city planners. There is a need for people familiar with the law, and ideally, practiced in land claims. The need (I see) for the immediate next stage is to secure recognition of the location you have specified as legally binding. The human institution best suited (as far as I can see) for legal recognition of a claim of land on Mars is the United Nations.
Persons with a level of comfort working with national representatives to the United Nations are needed to move this project forward.
With a bit of finesse, Mars can be placed on a path toward recognition as a Nation in the United Nations, thus increasing chances of a amicable future for relationships between residents of the planet and residents of Earth, and reducing chances of conflict due to misguided aggression by groups who might perceive a potential advantage by use of force.
(th)

Sorry TA, I haven't claimed copyright on the name Sagan City so I don't see how I can "release" it. I write what I write. If people want to follow a parallel open source project seeking to establish a real city on Mars, that's fine by me but I think you would really have to defer to the experts on where to land. My pinprick on the map is based on a modicum of knowledge and a lot of hunch. I very much doubt it is the best place to land on Mars. But it would probably be a possible site where you could build such a city.

This link sets out some of the detail on how you select a landing site...

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/mars-human … sentations

Whether a Mars Republic should be part of the United Nations is a big question. Personally I would favour it being an independent planet and agreeing a permanent peace treaty with Earth via the UN, with agreement on joint/co-operative exploration of the rest of the solar system, communications, mutual recognition and so on.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-17 19:17:57

Hi Louis,

My objective is to try to find conditions which will increase the probability of Sagan City coming into existence.

Your proposal that there should be TWO Sagan City initiatives would (in my opinion) reduce the probability instead of increase it.

At the moment, there exists only one initiative, and that is yours.

Your uncertainty about location is an example of increase of uncertainty for the future of Sagan City. You made a decision for a precise location, and at that moment the probability of a bright future for Sagan City was as great as it has been, because it now appears what I understood to be a decision about the boundaries of the city turns out to have been a misreading of your intent. I was hoping you would make a firm decision, so I read into your words something that was not there.

***

Regarding UN membership versus a concept of planetary independence ... I think that securing UN membership for the planet, in the form of a "nation", would increase chances of an amicable relationship with the residents of Earth, and the idea of setting up an independent entity from the outset will just about guarantee a war. The examples of Canada and the United States seem instructive (to me at least).

Both were created or established as extensions of the British empire of the time. One chose independence and got two wars. One chose to evolve with the British empire as inevitable change occurred, and it now functions as an independent nation without having had to endure a war.

The model I see from this is that an amicable relationship built from the start will have a greater chance of evolving into a friendly independence over time.

(th)

louis wrote:

Sorry TA, I haven't claimed copyright on the name Sagan City so I don't see how I can "release" it. I write what I write. If people want to follow a parallel open source project seeking to establish a real city on Mars, that's fine by me but I think you would really have to defer to the experts on where to land. My pinprick on the map is based on a modicum of knowledge and a lot of hunch. I very much doubt it is the best place to land on Mars. But it would probably be a possible site where you could build such a city.
Whether a Mars Republic should be part of the United Nations is a big question. Personally I would favour it being an independent planet and agreeing a permanent peace treaty with Earth via the UN, with agreement on joint/co-operative exploration of the rest of the solar system, communications, mutual recognition and so on.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-17 19:29:18

One way to accumilate the composed posts that one makes is rather easy to do. Select your name and on the profile page (Profile menu) for you so that you can then near the bottom select the links for Show all topics of which you have posted in or Show all posts that you have made in your own words on the forum. That will give you a way to extract them to give you the resource to creat the novel with.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-19 12:00:35

Louis,

I have two new items for your consideration, as you plan your book on Sagan City.

First, from National Geographic for February 2018, from an interview of Michael Bloomberg (former mayor of New York)

Begin Quotation:
SG: (question about gentrification)?
MB: I've always thought that culture attracts capital more than capital attracts culture.
End Quotation.

The thought I would invite you to pursue is to concentrate on defining the culture you want to see, and let details about hardware and supplies of various kinds to others better suited for those tasks. You appear to have given up on inspiring others to build a real city on Mars, but you appear to have the flexibility of thought that would enable you flex in that direction.

You have already started defining the culture, of course, but your production to date appears to be more of an outline than detailed specifications.

Second, from a the same issue, from an article on CCTV surveiliance by Robert Draper:

Begin Quotation:
London authorities were early adopters of widespread closed-circuit television (CCTV) surveiliance ...
End Quotation.

The article discusses video surveiliance in cities around the world, and considers the differences between authoritarian states and ones which aspire to democracy or at least a semblance of democracy.

It seems to me that as a designer of a new high technology city, it would make sense to build in a high level of surveiliance from the outset, since it will most certainly arrive with commercial interests.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2018-12-19 16:13:58)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-19 18:14:02

Funding, Rockets, equipment, materials and people are what is required to build a city but it is leader ship that makes it work to achieve the goal of the mission.

louis · 2018-12-19 19:59:01

I'd like to see a culture that can compete with the best that Earth has to offer in terms of science, technology, visual arts, literature, philosophy, drama, music and so on. You cannot create great culture by diktat. You can only encourage it and provide a space for it. I think culture does attract capital and vice versa. If you are going to attract people to Mars, you want to offer them a great place to live. They can't yet wander around freely breathing in the atmosphere - but if they can breathe the fresh air of a free culture that will make up a lot for what they can't do.

I would hope Mars can build a society that understands human freedom and isn't built on citizen surveillance. It's important to know that your state isn't snooping on your every move.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,
I have two new items for your consideration, as you plan your book on Sagan City.
First, from National Geographic for February 2018, from an interview of Michael Bloomberg (former mayor of New York)
Begin Quotation:
SG: (question about gentrification)?
MB: I've always thought that culture attracts capital more than capital attracts culture.
End Quotation.
The thought I would invite you to pursue is to concentrate on defining the culture you want to see, and let details about hardware and supplies of various kinds to others better suited for those tasks. You appear to have given up on inspiring others to build a real city on Mars, but you appear to have the flexibility of thought that would enable you flex in that direction.
You have already started defining the culture, of course, but your production to date appears to be more of an outline than detailed specifications.
Second, from a the same issue, from an article on CCTV surveiliance by Robert Draper:
Begin Quotation:
London authorities were early adopters of widespread closed-circuit television (CCTV) surveiliance ...
End Quotation.
The article discusses video surveiliance in cities around the world, and considers the differences between authoritarian states and ones which aspire to democracy or at least a semblance of democracy.
It seems to me that as a designer of a new high technology city, it would make sense to build in a high level of surveiliance from the outset, since it will most certainly arrive with commercial interests.
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-19 20:04:59

Hi Spacenut,

I like your list of factors that are required to build a city on Mars.

However, the key element you have identified is leadership.

To your list of factors, I'd like to offer one that I have not seen mentioned before, but which seems (to me) worth considering.

Corporations

500 years ago, it wasn't individuals paddling canoes like the South Sea Islanders, that led the path of exploration from Europe. It was corporations, albeit at the time the prevailing corporations were the Catholic Church and the Nation States of Portugal and Spain (all led by strong monarchs).

In the present age, it seems to me that corporations are likely to be the agencies of settlement of other worlds, although Nation States are still very much in the game, but (it appears to me) all of the present contenders are supported by large numbers of corporations of various sizes.

The Mars One idea was interesting, and it certainly generated some buzz, but I think it was doomed from the outset by the failure (from what I've read) to enlist corporations to participate to the significant level that would have been needed for success.

Just so, if Louis were to revise his thinking and embark upon an attempt to create a "real" city, it seems to me he would do well to enlist a large number of corporations to support each other in the massive undertaking to set up a city on Mars, and not just a camp site.

A minor example would be MacDonalds, which could (if it so chose) decide to open a franchise on Mars. The thought process from this decision would lead to recognition of the support services it would require, of which transportation would be a minor part in the grand scheme of things.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Funding, Rockets, equipment, materials and people are what is required to build a city but it is leader ship that makes it work to achieve the goal of the mission.

SpaceNut · 2018-12-19 20:09:03

Its also why companies like Space x and Blue Origin are being looked at for their respective leadership which could once the hinge pins are in place could be the ones leading that charge to mars.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-21 08:56:43

Louis,

I have updated the Attributes post for Sagan City to show it is the 2018 version.

This is an attempt to free Sagan City 2018 from being a burden upon your creativity.

In just a few days, as humans count time, you will be free to "create" another version of Sagan City, somewhere else on Mars as your mood strikes you.

To see the Attributes post, use search with :SearchTerm and :SaganCity with Author tahanson43206

(th)

begin Quotation:
Sagan City on Mars (2018 version)
Attributes compiled from posts by Louis

Location: 34.58 degrees West and 21 degrees North
End Quotation.

louis · 2018-12-21 14:47:12

Mars 2038

The growth in Mars tourism is radically changing the nature of the Mars settlement. The overall population has more than doubled over the last 4 years and now stands at 1230 (of whom about 400 are short term tourists) - surprise for the Mars planners who had been expecting much slower growth.

The Domicile Maximum has been relaxed to 6 years.

The ESA’s interplanetary spacecraft, New Europa , fails tragically during re-entry on a test flight and all ten crew are killed. Plans for an ESA Mars base are put on hold. China also delays its mission owing to an outbreak of conflict with Taiwan. Taiwan’s robotised armed forces secure a stalemate but not before China’s economy goes into freefall owing to disruption of trade, causing a financial crisis. CNSA’s Mars Base project is a casualty of the financial crisis.

Musk (now a Mars Council elected representative) continues to promote the idea of a single Mars Republic. The Mars Council, which still includes 50% appointed MDC representatives, rejects his proposal but sympathy for his approach is growing. A motion is passed in the US Senate urging that the USA recognise the right of Mars residents to democratically elect their own government.

In co-operation with scientists and technicians at MITE, the Mars Council agrees a 100 Year Primary Terraformation Plan . The Plan rejects use of nuclear weaponry to promote gas and water formation. It proposes instead a five pronged approach: seeding of the North and South poles with dark powder to reduce the albedo effect, use of solar reflector satellites to increase insolation, melting of glaciers with solar-powered satellite lasers, drilling to increase methane release and establishment of super-greenhouse gas factories, plastic heat-trap coverings for 30% of the planet, and manufacture of one billion robot rovers to pyrolise regolith. It is envisaged that up to 80% of Mars’s industrial output will be devoted to the Primary Terraformation Project (PTP) . The PTP will begin with a ten year preparatory period which include the creation of a satellite and rocket hopper manufacturing facility on the outskirts of Sagan City. A fleet of 1000 rocket hoppers will be tasked with darkening the poles. The facility will aim to manufacture the rocket hoppers at a rate of 100 per earth annum.

Earth-based universities have been active on Mars from the earliest sols of Mars’s human presence. They have been funding major research projects on Mars. In 2037 a University of Mars was established by a consortium set up by Space X, the MDC, Harvard University, Cambridge University, University of Bologna and Tokyo University. This will initially serve as a Post-Graduate research and teaching facility, focussed on Mars but it is intended to expand into a general university over the next 30 years. The University of Mars receives a Charter from the Mars Council in 2038.

In late 2038 the Mars Council approves the Musk Resolution that declares: “All proposals for the establishment of human settlements on Mars must be approved by the Mars Council, in order to avoid endangerment of residents, compromise of terraformation or infringement of their constitutional rights.”

The Mars Council also adopts the official Mars Calendar which divides the Mars year of 668 sols into 4 seasons of 160 sols each, plus the Winter Solstice Sol (1 sol) and a Summer Solstice period of 27 sols. Each season consists of four 40-sol Quarters and each Quarter has 4 Tensol periods. Year 0 of the Mars calendar is fixed at the second day of the Winter Solstice (which is New Year’s Day) period in the Year of the Viking Landing. We are now in Mars Year 60. To write the date of the second sol of the first tensol of the third quarter of the fourth season in MY60 you would write 2.1.3.4.60. New Year’s Eve will be on 10.4.4.4.60. New Year’s Day is written as 1.0.0.0.61. The 27 sols of the Summer Solstice period are written as 2.0.0.0.61 and so on. People soon recognise the “Triple Zero” designation for Solstice dates.

Last edited by louis (2018-12-21 14:50:41)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-21 17:16:37

The Sagan city build up will require more than a Space x provider as to get what we want done as there are just only so many tons and flights at a mars cycle..After its starting point missions there will need other providers to bring tons and people in a coordinated effort from earth to make it grow.

louis · 2018-12-21 18:53:34

My understanding is that with more fuel use you can overcome the Mars cycle.

In my timeline I am a little coy about the technological advance but I am assuming the BRF Starship is hooked up with some sort of solar electric propulsion system.

But even if your premise was correct, I think the Mars colony's earnings after a couple of decades could easily fund 20 landings per cycle (about 1600 tonnes of cargo per cycle) ...working on a guesstimate of $5000 per kg to Mars - about $8 billion per cycle.

SpaceNut wrote:

The Sagan city build up will require more than a Space x provider as to get what we want done as there are just only so many tons and flights at a mars cycle..After its starting point missions there will need other providers to bring tons and people in a coordinated effort from earth to make it grow.

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-22 19:47:48

Trying City Rises topic for this:

Apparently there is a law somewhere in the US collection of laws which supports/encourages settlement of Mars.

http://thespaceshow.com/show/21-dec-201 … montgomery

Begin Quotation:
Another interesting issue for 2018 focused on planetary protection and some new policy suggestions by the new NASA Planetary Protection Officer. Our guest had much to say about legal issues of planetary protection and the commercial space players/businesses. Listen to her comments about it not being law or mandatory rules for the private sector and about the FAA and enforcement, even enforcement through launch licenses. Laura reminded us that it is law for our government to support space settlement including settlement on Mars. This is pro-settlement space law is already in place. She reminded us several times that there was no planetary protection law, especially regarding private actors. Don't miss this important discussion.
End Quotation.

louis · 2018-12-23 15:50:47

Good to know - Space X could tie up any challenges in the courts. I presume domestic law takes precedence in the USA over international law (ie ratified treaty agreements).

tahanson43206 wrote:

Trying City Rises topic for this:
Apparently there is a law somewhere in the US collection of laws which supports/encourages settlement of Mars.
http://thespaceshow.com/show/21-dec-201 … montgomery

Begin Quotation:
Another interesting issue for 2018 focused on planetary protection and some new policy suggestions by the new NASA Planetary Protection Officer. Our guest had much to say about legal issues of planetary protection and the commercial space players/businesses. Listen to her comments about it not being law or mandatory rules for the private sector and about the FAA and enforcement, even enforcement through launch licenses. Laura reminded us that it is law for our government to support space settlement including settlement on Mars. This is pro-settlement space law is already in place. She reminded us several times that there was no planetary protection law, especially regarding private actors. Don't miss this important discussion.
End Quotation.

tahanson43206 · 2019-01-01 11:38:17

For Louis,

As the new Terran Year begins, I'd like to enlist your support for a New Year's Resolution to bring life to Sagan City 2018.

As we discussed previously, you are free to "create" new Sagan City concepts as your mood dictates, but I am interested in focus upon the city you already "created". From my perspective, you seem to have (basically) thrown a dart at a globe of Mars, and where ever it landed, you decided to found a city.

Again from my perspective, it doesn't matter where on Mars Sagan City is located, because the energy resources and intellectual resources that will be brought to bear on the problem of building a "real" city are sufficient to set up shop anywhere, and to pull materials from where ever they may be located.

To find the SaganCity (2018) post, use SearchTerm: and :SaganCityAttributesOf with Author tahanson43206

I'd like to enlist everyone on the forum, and those who are not yet Members, to contribute suggestions, clarifications, corrections or whatever else strikes your fancy, to advance the objective.

At the end of the current (Terran) year, I'd like to have elements of a feasible city in place, with land allocated to responsible parties, and plans under development to establish business activities to support the Mars undertaking.

As a stretch goal, I'd like to have the site recognized by the United Nations, concerns previously expressed notwithstanding.

A city is a social construct, and the United Nations represents a vehicle for achieving a social consensus around the Mars undertaking.

(th)

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