Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

Palomar · 2003-04-16 13:06:50

*Being my maternal great-greatgrandmother was full-blooded Native American (a Midwestern tribe; we are still trying to figure out which tribe), I'll feel free to chip in a few comments:

AS: "It is my opinion that the "frontier theory" of expansion is bizarre and laughably contrived, having little relation to important realities of history. The "frontier" of American history was occupied by the native Americans, and it was conquered from them, and they were largely exterminated, in a very clear case of genocide, if a gradual, prolonged one."

*May I politely point out that Native Americans in most of the Americas faced similar threats and indignities, from Canada to at least central South America? From European settlers, yes...including Spanish conquistadores and their resultant settlers. The imperialist settler mentality wasn't limited to the land now known as the U.S.A. Native Americans in Mexico frequently complain and protest about how the Mexican government treats them. Or does that not matter because Mexico isn't a superpower?

I recall with a mixture of disgust and humor Latino Hollywood actor Edward James Olmos, a few years ago, yelling into a microphone before a group of angry Native Americans (whose presence had been entirely left out of a "rainbow coalition" type of "goodwill" group Olmos was a member of) about how European-Americans had rewritten U.S. history against the Native Americans, etc. He was boo'd down by the Natives, who saw through his pathetic attempt to placate them: Fact is, he didn't care prior to that hostile meeting that no Native Americans were present in the group he was touring the U.S. with as the representative for the Latino population. He also apparently conveniently forgot somehow that his own Spanish ancestors didn't treat the Natives any more kindly or better than the blue-eyed Anglo settlers. And interestingly, England gets let off the hook after a certain point; before 1776, Parliament declared it illegal for Colonists to attempt to move into and settle land west of the Alleghenies because such a move would infringe upon the rights of the Native Americans. No more land was to be taken from them, so Parliament decreed.

AS: "The imperialist posture of the settlers in America has never really abated, although it has shifted somewhat in response to various changes in the world order and social movements."

*You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm inclined to disagree with this statement, unless you're confining it as applying (today) to corporations and the wealthy elite only.

May I ask what nation you are a citizen of?

I'm not interested in any long-winded debates in this regard; I simply want to flesh out a bit more history in this regard.

--Cindy

soph · 2003-04-16 13:21:28

And interestingly, England gets let off the hook after a certain point; before 1776, Parliament declared it illegal for Colonists to attempt to move into and settle land west of the Alleghenies because such a move would infringe upon the rights of the Native Americans. No more land was to be taken from them, so Parliament decreed.

Or so was the public rationale. The real reason? French Louisiana claims, fear of American strength, and so on. Parliament did this to protect English interests. They were done with the New World, except for Canada, so they wanted to keep it off limits to any potential dissenters.

clark · 2003-04-16 14:05:20

To try and bring this back to the topic.... whatever that was....

Mars cannot be an alternative to war becuase Mars will not act as a solution to the problems that war is used to solve.

Any disagree?

soph · 2003-04-16 14:08:04

Right. The idea that all military production will be shifted to space production is ludicrous as well. An airplane requires vastly different tooling from a spacecraft, so your average subcontractor will not be able to simply say, "OK, let's build a spaceship today."

And your typical bin Laden is going to be even more brash when Mars begins to be colonized, perhaps bombing spaceports and factories to prevent space access.

Palomar · 2003-04-16 14:53:37

And interestingly, England gets let off the hook after a certain point; before 1776, Parliament declared it illegal for Colonists to attempt to move into and settle land west of the Alleghenies because such a move would infringe upon the rights of the Native Americans. No more land was to be taken from them, so Parliament decreed.
Or so was the public rationale. The real reason? French Louisiana claims, fear of American strength, and so on. Parliament did this to protect English interests. They were done with the New World, except for Canada, so they wanted to keep it off limits to any potential dissenters.

*Excellent point, Soph. Yes. My intention, however, was to point out Great Britain's record in this regard (whether or not their policy would have held had the Revolutionary War not been waged is unknowable, of course).

Sorry, don't mean to get too off topic (ha ha).

--Cindy

soph · 2003-04-16 19:56:07

inept colonizers (unlike the British) ... rotten space explorers (because unsupported by a relatively uneducated along-those-lines citizenry).

Well, actually, I think we're better colonizers, in a way, than the British. We have an economic empire, and so does China and Europe. Imperialism today is economic, not political, and in many ways, is far more beneficial to the Third World. America's effective economic system has allowed a country of 280 million to outproduce the entire EU, and any other major country, by far.

Rotten space explorers? Our space program, both manned and unmanned, is unsurpassed by any nation in the world. And the "uneducated" comment is a gross generalization. Yes, there are undereducated Americans, but there are undereducated Europeans, Canadians, and Asians. There are also many American geniuses. Am I uneducated? If anything, I'm lazy-I don't go out of my way in school, and yet, I've put many people older than me to shame in debates on everything from space to politics (not to toot my own horn, but it's true). America continues to have the greatest college and university system in the world, by far.

soph · 2003-04-18 13:46:10

Slave-owners, long after the British legislated against it.

For only a few decades--the British planted the seeds, but if you want to blame America, fine.

Racist still, in spite of knowing better.

Welcome to Earth.

Economically empirialistic, in spite of World consequences.

If Europe could be today, they would be.

Not outproducing, but out-consuming the rest of the World.

America outproduces the entire EU going by both GNP and GDP. Look it up. America's GDP surpasses $11 trillion anually.

Inferior product design & quality in mass production.

If you say so.

Uneducated, language-wise, history-wise, ethnic-wise.
No claim to native genius, since populated by immigrants.

Europe was populated by immigrants, too. In fact, if you go far enough back, the only "native genius" would be found in Kenya and parts of China.

But yet, for some reason, we have been home to many of history's greatest minds.

Have you attended/visited universities outside the USA?

Yes. My family is German, I've gone to colleges in Mexico, and in Alsace-Lorraine, as well as Berlin.

Spacecraft and aircraft combined are alike: Aerospacecraft.

My family is in the aerospace industry. Not a lucrative industry, let me tell you.

Bin Ladin and Saddam Hassein were USA-nurtured, one-offs.

And if had gone the other way, they would have been Soviet nurtured terrorists.

Are you done with your anti-American rants?

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-19 00:59:14

Well said dicktice. Well said indeed. Hardly refuted, either (we can't seriously call things like ?Welcome to Earth,? ?if they could, they would? and ?if you say so,? refutations).

Also, cute point about the Americas.

I mean, I love to point out that the United States hardly constitute a majority of the American people...

soph · 2003-04-19 06:51:46

Sure, dicktice posted a bunch of anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-government rants, so what does Josh do? He agrees. Why am I not surprised?

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-19 09:09:45

Heh, my posts are hardly anti-American (neither was dicktice's for that matter). But unlike some posters here (ie, Shaun- I know he's from AU but he does still seem to praise the US a lot, soph, Phobos), I don't sit in some sort of self-grandioseness pretending that I'm better than the rest of the world. Such things about how ?great I am? are reserved for the weak-minded who need some place to escape.

BTW, dicktice said nothing anti-capitalist or anti-government, either, and I would be amused to see you attempt to try explain how he did. All dicktice's post was about was lack of American compassion with too much ego, to put it simply.

soph · 2003-04-19 09:28:47

Josh, in trying to make "the other side" look inferior, you have just shown the same self-congratulatory attitude that you claim to rail against.

"I don't sit in some sort of self-grandioseness pretending that I'm better than the rest of the world. Such things about how ?great I am? are reserved for the weak-minded who need some place to escape."

Case and point. I know, you're going to try and twist it, like you try and twist everything else, into me somehow "missing the point" (a favorite strawman tactic of yours lately), but it's there.

dicktice · 2003-04-19 09:30:43

Dear Soph ... it's so rewarding to attack your blatant chauvenisms from time to time, because you're so prickly!
Nothing personal on my part. Let's say I understand where you are coming from better, for that last couple of replies.
Anti-American, I'm not, but given your advantages more is to be expected of the United States than the present administration seems capable of, intellectually. Admit it.
Anti-capitalist, insofar as Enron, et al. are representative, I admit it--yes. But freedom to do your own thing ... I'm all for it. Why, by the way, are income taxes still being imposed, when they aren't even legal in the U.S? That's not capitalism.
Anti-government, when the elections are won by spending obscene amounts of donated moneys to get into office (read: power, on top of more money)?--to me, that's not government.
Here is a little excerpt I copied from today's newspaper quoted from the American, Daniel Yankelovich' study:
"Canadians see themselves as part of the world. Americans see themselves as part of the United States.
"Canadians have a deeper sense of obligation towards other nations and feel more interdependence with them.
"While Americans prefer to excercise leadership in concert with allies, they feel their power buys them independence from world opinion."
I believe he has it right, because UN/USA conundrums of the last few months so obviously bear out his contentions....
By the time you see this, I'll have deleted my earlier haraungue, and hopefully get back to discussing Mars matters.

Gennaro · 2003-06-28 08:42:26

Oh, I had just about forgot everything about this thread. Just one thing:

Well, if you read the US National Security Strategy, it essentially outlines a plan of global empire ; the plan outlined there is one of "preventive war", where the US will deal with threats to its "security", whatever those are deemed to be, by force, before they arise, not heeding such annoyances as international law or the peaceful disapproval of other nations, even powerful ones, as we have seen in this first application of the strategy in Iraq.

1. A space faring empire doesn't have to be global. I could actually imagine a future where Mars and other places are settled and divided up by the United States, Imperial Europe, The Russian Empire, China, Japan, Reunited Korea, Taiwan and India each on their own and in competition.

2. I meant that we need political power to rule globalist financial forces, not short sighted financial interests to rule politics, which the US under Bush and the Neocons is basically all about.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-06-29 00:42:55

Hey, Josh ... I know it's taken me two months to realise it but I think I detect an insult!!

I suppose it took me this long to notice because I've been sitting here in a fog of "self-grandioseness pretending that I'm better than the rest of the world"!
:laugh:

If I appear to praise the USA too much for some tastes (and it seems any praise is unpalatable for many), it's probably only because I have lower expectations of my own species than most here seem to have.
The fact is, I admire the high moral standards of the Josh Cryers of this world. And I was impressed by AltToWar's almost encyclopedic knowledge of every nit-picking flaw in US foreign policy and US history, which s/he demonstrated in his/her brief sojourn at New Mars. [AltToWar's appearance just before Iraq, and equally sudden disappearance afterwards, now bolsters the suspicions I aired at the time that s/he was something of a left-wing political troll .. though I could conceivably be mistaken. Nevertheless, much of what s/he said may even have been true! ]

But my position, grandiose as it may look (! ), is simply based on the premise that it's unscientific to assume the here-and-now is special. In terms of human behaviour, I don't believe it is.
Without wishing to labour the point incessantly, I simply say look to history. As long as there have been humans there have been wars and empires. Countries have risen to prominence, usually by tyranny of one sort or another, and then faded into relative obscurity. Violence, greed, lust-for-power and religious intolerance fill the history books from cover to cover. This is not my opinion; this is fact.

To assume that the emergence of the UN and left-wing lobby groups, and the existence of groups of high-minded liberals (however noble and admirable), is somehow going to change all that is, to me, flying in the face of reality. To assume that the cycle of empires has ground to a halt with the arrival of America is the real "self-grandioseness" here because it tries to make the present day somehow special - which it almost certainly isn't!

One day, perhaps sooner than we think, America will run out of steam and falter. Some people think they see clearly the beginnings of her decline right now.
Who will fill the power vacuum? Make no mistake, somebody will ... it's a primate thing and, let's face it, we're mostly chimpanzee!
The majority of empires have been corrupt and malevolent far beyond what the US has ever achieved in this regard. But, if you disagree, don't worry. You may live to see the Pax Americana you so despise broken forever. Then, if you watch the Disney channel a lot, you'll probably be expecting a cosy UN-administered world of peace and love!

Good luck!

(P.S. You cut me to the quick with your comments, Josh! Am I to retain your respect only by agreeing with your views? That doesn't sound like the Josh we all know and love. )

Josh Cryer · 2003-06-29 05:04:15

Oh, well, Shaun, no offense was intended or anything, but when that post was written I was feeling quite ambushed from basically every side (not just on this forum, but in my everyday life, practically), about the ?greatness? of the USA (I perhaps singled you out because you aren't from the USA and such praise felt even worse). I totally apologize if you were offended by the post.

I can say, though, that the things I was saying at that time about the situation proved to be the more reasonable side of the argument (save wacky speculation which usually had a disclaimer that it was indeed just wacky speculation). I won't even begin to go down the list of ridiculous events which have occured and are occuring. In fact, I was thinking of not responding for fear I may restart a political discussion (in a nutshell, you would think that one who appreciated the power of the US- like I certainly do- wouldn't be for some of the things the Bush admin has done, simply because those things are causing more harm than good).

BTW, I think it's fairly obvious that AltToWar was more or less here for political reasons (ie, his nick is short for Alternative to War, and this was one of his first posts here), but I think his Mars inclinations were and are just as powerful as other posters who come and go here.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-06-29 06:48:48

No worries, mate!!
I don't believe there's a malicious bone in your body and no offence is taken. I just thought I'd clarify my position, that's all.
In fairness to you and any others I may annoy from time to time, perhaps I'm getting a little too cynical in my old age! Maybe it's I who should be apologising.

Free Spirit · 2003-06-29 09:53:55

If history has taught us one thing, it's futile to rely on power-mongering individuals, be they kings, presidents, or CEOs to solve our problems. They're usually more interested in maintaining their positions of power than anything else. And to be honest, people who are striken with extreme ideological fervor scare the hell out of me regardless of their ideologies. More people have been slaughtered in the name of utopian ideologies than anything else. I no longer vote for the above reasons, as long as we have strong hierarchies of power, there's going to be evil regardless of who gets to pull our strings.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-29 03:15:10

Russia replaces provocative head of its space agency, signs deal with NASA to share resources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-re … -1.6521694

The Ukraine War Is Remaking Global Space Cooperation
https://thediplomat.com/2022/07/the-ukr … operation/

Indian Firms Move To Expand Heavily in Russia, Hit By Sanctions
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian- … ns-3114252

NASA’s Shock New Plans To Fly Helicopters To Mars In 2027 As Historic $5.3 Billion Mission Changes Tack
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecarte … nges-tack/

In other more tinfoil headed AlexJones DavidIcke type Ufology news
perhaps too many beers and smoked something funny?

'Florida man tries to break into US Space Force base to warn about alien-dragon war, arrested'
https://www.timesnownews.com/viral/flor … e-93184033

Florida man drives to Space Force base to ‘warn the government’ about ‘US aliens fighting with Chinese dragons’
https://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-driv … 50616.html?

Johnson reportedly admitted to Brevard County deputies that he stole the vehicle while at Riviera Beach and did not know who the owner was.
The Florida man, who has been booked into Brevard County Jail, was charged with grand theft of a motor vehicle. His bond was reportedly set at $3,000.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-24 18:34:30

OpenAI CEO Sam Altman credits Elon Musk with teaching him the importance of deep tech investing. But he has no interest in living on Mars
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/openai-c … 05687.html

SpaceX hires former NASA human spaceflight chief for Starship role
https://www.reuters.com/technology/spac … 023-05-15/

Island at the end of the world: Antarctic outpost faces uncertain times
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ … tain-times

Demystifying China in Antarctica
https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/demysti … ntarctica/
What Does a Rising China Mean for Antarctic Governance?

Should Antarctica be off-limits to tourists? And is ethical travel possible in a melting continent?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/antar … OW2IIT2WQ/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-07-05 15:52:15

Rockwell's website, LewRockwell.com, was launched in 1999. The website features articles about political philosophy, economics, and contemporary politics. The website's motto is "anti-war, anti-state, pro-market".

WEF Klaus 'The world is getting angrier'

Schwab - 'Prepare for an Angrier World'
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2023/07/no_ … ier-world/

India counts down to third lunar exploration mission
https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/202 … on-mission

Professor becomes first Chinese civilian in space
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/chin … 53033.html

Japan H-3 Rocket development
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/akiyama … 7-00355449

US Navy says it prevented Iran from seizing tankers in Gulf - An Iranian navy vessel fired shots during the second seizure attempt.
https://news.yahoo.com/news/shots-fired … 59318.html

Prigozhin arrives in St Petersburg, takes back seized weapons
https://news.yahoo.com/prigozhin-arrive … 01789.html

Russia says US and allies 'complicit' in drone attack on Moscow: Live Ukraine updates
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor … 382129007/
Russia Blames US, NATO for Moscow Drone Attack
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/russi … d/1125930/

another economics article on LewRockwell.

'Who Wins and Who Loses in a Deep Global Recession?'
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2023/07/cha … recession/
Globalization and financialization have fueled the global economy for 40 years. Now they’re in the decline phase of the S-Curve.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-07-05 15:54:47)

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#151 2003-04-16 13:06:50

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#152 2003-04-16 13:21:28

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#153 2003-04-16 14:05:20

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#154 2003-04-16 14:08:04

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#155 2003-04-16 14:53:37

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#156 2003-04-16 19:56:07

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#157 2003-04-18 13:46:10

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#158 2003-04-19 00:59:14

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#159 2003-04-19 06:51:46

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#160 2003-04-19 09:09:45

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#161 2003-04-19 09:28:47

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#162 2003-04-19 09:30:43

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#163 2003-06-28 08:42:26

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#164 2003-06-29 00:42:55

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#165 2003-06-29 05:04:15

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#166 2003-06-29 06:48:48

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#167 2003-06-29 09:53:55

Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

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Re: Mars as an alternative to War. - Can space exploration replace War?

#169 2023-05-24 18:34:30

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