Physiology of Martian crops

jfenciso · 2018-10-29 05:21:08

You can share your insights about why studying physiology of the crop is an important factor for human survival.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-29 19:18:11

Not sure what direction this is going but will post a few links

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Martian_Physiology

doubtful that its that one but maybe these are closer to what you are thinking of in that you are what you eat...

https://www.businessinsider.com/growing … ?r=UK&IR=T

louis · 2018-10-29 19:27:15

An interesting thought experiment: could humans survive without plants? I think we have plenty of ways of producing sugars, which is a lot of what our food gives us. We are also beginning to find ways to replicate protein function...

https://phys.org/news/2015-02-artificia … n-mri.html

Vitamins and minerals I think can be produced from regolith and lab processes.

Perhaps we don't need plants?

elderflower · 2018-10-30 05:24:42

All flesh is grass, Louis. This is the only system that we know that works for us. Even the fish and marine mammal eating Inuit ultimately depend on marine plants (diatoms and algae) as the primary producers.
There is one exception- the chemical eating bacteria in subsea vents and other volcanic areas can be the base of a separate food chain, but no humans have tried surviving on this.
A proposal to generate food using industrial processes is sure to run into severe troubles with deficiencies and changes to gut bacteria. A space colony is not the place to experiment with this.

louis · 2018-10-30 07:09:47

I would agree with your last point! Just a thought experiment!!

elderflower wrote:

All flesh is grass, Louis. This is the only system that we know that works for us. Even the fish and marine mammal eating Inuit ultimately depend on marine plants (diatoms and algae) as the primary producers.
There is one exception- the chemical eating bacteria in subsea vents and other volcanic areas can be the base of a separate food chain, but no humans have tried surviving on this.
A proposal to generate food using industrial processes is sure to run into severe troubles with deficiencies and changes to gut bacteria. A space colony is not the place to experiment with this.

RobertDyck · 2018-10-30 14:18:40

As a thought experiment, I have posted an idea intended for spacecraft. Use isolated chloroplasts to convert CO2 and water into O2 and sugar. Chloroplasts will polymerize sugar to complex carbohydrates. They would be in a transparent plastic bag, a mirror outside the spacecraft would shine sunlight through a window into the bags. The window would require spectrally selective coating to filter out UV. The plastic would be a semipermeable membrane to let O2 out but keep water and CO2 in. Use an ultrasonic sealer to create lines in the bag forming channels for water to circulate. An aquarium water pump would move water across the inside surface of the plastic to promote O2 getting out, and a fan would blow cabin air across the outside of the bag. Some water drain off to filers to remove complex carbohydrates; they have a large molecule.

Source of chloroplasts would be leaves of plants, so we still have to grow some. Exact carbohydrate depends on which plant they come from. Biologists tell me the easiest plant to harvest chloroplasts is peas, so it would be pea starch. Seeds are grown to just 2 weeks after germination before harvesting leaves, so it's young plants.

I would store bags frozen in liquid nitrogen on the ship. Chloroplasts would last only so long before bags have to be replaced. Long-winded discussion how to extend viability, will probably require genetic modification to transfer genes from cyanobacteria to plant chromosome for chloroplasts. Genes to recycle oxidized RuBP.

This could be used as source of sugar for industrial fermentation. A group of bacteria formerly thought to be a type of yeast produce vitamin B12. But you have to split open the cell wall for humans to digest. Today it's done with salt, an ingredient in Marmite, very salty. Regular yeast produce other B vitamins. So yeast extract.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-10-30 17:42:15)

SpaceNut · 2018-10-30 17:44:05

Physiology
Physiology is the scientific study of the normal function in living systems. A sub-discipline of biology, its focus is in how organisms, organ systems, organs, cells, and biomolecules carry out the chemical or physical functions that exist in a living system.

RobertDyck · 2018-10-31 06:30:02

tahanson43206 · 2018-11-08 08:41:20

Reference: Post #2 2018-10-29 21:27:15

Louis, I'd like to offer encouragement for further investigation of this idea. As Elderflower pointed out, replicating the results of evolution over millions of years will not be easy, but success would yield benefits on Earth today, and away from Earth for sure.

A biologist friend reminded me that humans and other creatures have evolved to depend upon the mixture of elements and compounds that are collected by rain water as it percolates through rock and soil. The resulting mixture contains elements and compounds that are beneficial for good health. The subject came up when I pointed out that the output of a fuel cell power system is pure water (plus any contaminants from air taken in to supply oxygen) which can be consumed safely. The biologist pointed out that such pure water is a capable solvent, which will leach minerals out of the body. For this reason he suggested using the example of spring water, for which detailed chemical analysis is available on the Internet and in hard copy references.

In like manner, as Elderflower pointed out, artificially generated carbohydrates and other chemical structures need to be designed to provide all the services which evolution has worked out for us to study. I am encouraged by news reports of success growing batches of cells from cells collected from living tissue, to replicate the taste, texture and most importantly, the nutrient value of meat grown in the traditional form.

A number of science fiction writers have considered this topic. Kim Stanley Robinson explored the requirement for a generation ship in some detail in Aurora. His model envisioned a community of 2500 (or so) people, many of whom were involved in maintenance of the multiple independent habitats he "designed".

In contrast, a number of writers I've encountered over the years have assumed that NO living plants or animals would be needed to supply the nutritional requirements of a small complement of space travelers, and in one case, a gigantic passenger ship with thousands of customers and crew who were supplied each day with a wide variety of cuisine all created from the output of the recycling system. The plot of that story revolved around the chef who performed culinary magic on the otherwise bland output of the recycle system.

Because you appear (from what I can gather from your posts) to have an interest in the economic activities of large numbers of human beings, and particularly in the operation of markets, I am hoping you will contribute to a discussion of how market demand can accelerate research and development of non-living food supplies for Earth and elsewhere.

(th)

louis wrote:

An interesting thought experiment: could humans survive without plants? I think we have plenty of ways of producing sugars, which is a lot of what our food gives us. We are also beginning to find ways to replicate protein function...

https://phys.org/news/2015-02-artificia … n-mri.html
Vitamins and minerals I think can be produced from regolith and lab processes.
Perhaps we don't need plants?

louis · 2018-11-08 15:21:05

Not sure I have the deep knowledge required to prognosticate on the future of a nascent industry.

The problem for all alternatives to natural food grown in natural sunlight is the amount of energy input required.

We've seen some indoor farming of lettuces and the like in cities on Earth...I can see that make sense in terms of transport as salad foods tend to be light but bulky so probably have a high transport cost per kg (the transport being necessary of course to bring them from farms to the city).

Probably satellite solar reflector technology will be important in capturing "free" solar energy in orbit without having to compete with users of natural sunlight on Earth. On Mars such technology could be used to increase insolation on Mars.

One thing I do believe is that the economics of what we do on Mars is totally different from what we do on Earth. On Mars it makes good economic sense to invest in indoor farming and meat or milk substitutes (given the inherent problems with animal husbandry in a "life support" pressurised environment).

Would Mars ever export food to Earth (apart from luxury novelty foodstuffs like wine)? Seems unlikely but beef is sold wholesale for about $5000 per tonne. One could imagine that going up in price. And one can imagine the cost of space travel to Mars going down below $1000 per tonne. There is little point in sending empty BFRs back to Earth - the marginal price of filling the empty space might be a lot cheaper.

Looked at that way, Mars has a lot of free land and, potentially, a lot of cheap energy. It's not impossible we might see a beef industry grow up on Mars - either natural or artificial lab meat beef.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Reference: Post #2 2018-10-29 21:27:15
Louis, I'd like to offer encouragement for further investigation of this idea. As Elderflower pointed out, replicating the results of evolution over millions of years will not be easy, but success would yield benefits on Earth today, and away from Earth for sure.
A biologist friend reminded me that humans and other creatures have evolved to depend upon the mixture of elements and compounds that are collected by rain water as it percolates through rock and soil. The resulting mixture contains elements and compounds that are beneficial for good health. The subject came up when I pointed out that the output of a fuel cell power system is pure water (plus any contaminants from air taken in to supply oxygen) which can be consumed safely. The biologist pointed out that such pure water is a capable solvent, which will leach minerals out of the body. For this reason he suggested using the example of spring water, for which detailed chemical analysis is available on the Internet and in hard copy references.
In like manner, as Elderflower pointed out, artificially generated carbohydrates and other chemical structures need to be designed to provide all the services which evolution has worked out for us to study. I am encouraged by news reports of success growing batches of cells from cells collected from living tissue, to replicate the taste, texture and most importantly, the nutrient value of meat grown in the traditional form.
A number of science fiction writers have considered this topic. Kim Stanley Robinson explored the requirement for a generation ship in some detail in Aurora. His model envisioned a community of 2500 (or so) people, many of whom were involved in maintenance of the multiple independent habitats he "designed".
In contrast, a number of writers I've encountered over the years have assumed that NO living plants or animals would be needed to supply the nutritional requirements of a small complement of space travelers, and in one case, a gigantic passenger ship with thousands of customers and crew who were supplied each day with a wide variety of cuisine all created from the output of the recycling system. The plot of that story revolved around the chef who performed culinary magic on the otherwise bland output of the recycle system.
Because you appear (from what I can gather from your posts) to have an interest in the economic activities of large numbers of human beings, and particularly in the operation of markets, I am hoping you will contribute to a discussion of how market demand can accelerate research and development of non-living food supplies for Earth and elsewhere.
(th)
louis wrote:
An interesting thought experiment: could humans survive without plants? I think we have plenty of ways of producing sugars, which is a lot of what our food gives us. We are also beginning to find ways to replicate protein function...

https://phys.org/news/2015-02-artificia … n-mri.html
Vitamins and minerals I think can be produced from regolith and lab processes.
Perhaps we don't need plants?

elderflower · 2018-11-15 04:19:32

Take heart, Louis. Prognoscitators are two a penny!

jfenciso · 2018-11-22 21:16:32

First, you can isolate but not feasible to do that in space. Second, chloroplast can't survive without the nucleus. Metabolic activity in the chloroplast happens because of the enzymatic reaction. Some enzymes in the chloroplast, the genetic information came from the nucleus. Third, nucleus and chloroplast have an interaction by giving a molecular signal in order to maintain the cellular activity inside the cell. If you prefer to fix more CO2, I recommend the use of microalgae as a source of O2 and food. To screen a candidate microalgae, research about their ecophysiology or high amount of carbonic anhydrase of different microalga species. Carbonic anhydrase is an enzyme which fixed more CO2.

RobertDyck · 2018-11-22 23:40:11

Many biologists say that. My response is algae is a living thing, it requires complex nutrients. The only source of nutrients onboard a spacecraft is human waste: urine and feces. Processing those to become nutrients suitable for a food crop are complicated. The process is long, complicated, and requires a lot of bulky heavy equipment. Biologists response is always: "Yea, so?" That means the equipment just cannot work on a spacecraft. The goal is a life support system for a spacecraft. When challenges that their solution just will not work on a spacecraft, their response is: "Yea, so?"

The point is biochemistry. To fix CO2 and H2O to form O2 and carbohydrate. That's the goal. It isn't to produce a living thing, it's to recycle oxygen. The inputs are very simple, and already available on a spacecraft. I started with the idea of just chlorophyll in a tank of water, with cabin air bubbled through, and lamps. But photosynthesis is far more complicated than that. In fact, chlorophyll isn't even involved in the direct chemical process, it's just a photo-die that converts light into electric charge. I then studied creating a synthetic bilipid membrane, and embedding proteins that do the chemical processing, possibly even avoiding light, use electricity directly to provide the electric charge. But that's too complicated. It requires an entire thylakoid. And connecting electric conductors to tiny thylakoids is impractical, far easier to use light to deliver power. And the Calvin-Benson cycle occurs in the stroma. So just harvest entire intact chloroplasts. Yes, the goal is biochemistry.

Claiming a chloroplast cannot survive without a living thing is like saying it cannot survive without a tiny Rabbi actively laying-on hands and reciting from the Torah. That's ridiculous! Fundamentally, there is not such thing as "life", only biochemistry. And chloroplasts are cyanobacteria that have been enslaved. The entire DNA of the plasmid is one chromosome in the nucleus of a eukaryotic cell of a plant. When the plant requires a chloroplast, a copy of that entire chromosome is copied to RNA, then taken outside the nucleus where it is copied back into DNA, and the ends linked to form a circle, a plasmid. But chloroplasts are missing several key genes needed to self-replicate. Furthermore, they're missing several genes needed to create structures needed for metabolism. For example, key steps to recycle oxidized RuBP. For photosynthesis, this is the key part where chloroplasts are dependant on the host cell. Since all chloroplasts originated from cyanobacteria, we can genetically engineer the host plant to provide chloroplast plasmids with genes from cyanobacteria so they can recycle oxidized RuBP themselves. Doing it within the chloroplast means we can harvest intact isolated chloroplasts from leaf cells, and use them in a plastic bag. Chloroplasts will still be unable to self-replicate, so will not require any nutrients. They will only require CO2 and H2O for photosynthesis.

More on a web page I wrote: http://canada.marssociety.org/winnipeg/chloroplast.html

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-11-22 23:40:56)

elderflower · 2018-11-23 04:59:36

Now you have created a new waste stream. Defective, worn out chloroplasts. This may be food for some bacteria, but you will have to ensure that none of these bugs get into your chloroplast reactors where they would be devastating, as the chloroplasts no longer have host plant cells to defend them.

RobertDyck · 2018-11-23 07:59:04

True. Bags of chloroplasts will not last forever. Undergraduate lab experiment to demonstrate photosynthesis, chloroplasts last 20 minutes. I believe exposure to oxygen in air will cause RuBP to oxidize rapidly. Circulate water within the bag, made of a semipermeable membrane to allow oxygen to leave, and a fan to blow oxygen into the cabin. That will actively remove oxygen, while CO2 is actively added to the water. This should keep the CO2:O2 ratio high enough to reduce oxidation. Furthermore, recycling oxidized RuBP should allow chloroplasts to remain viable much longer. If they can last a last 3 months, ideally 6 months, we're good. Since 6 months is one-way trip time to Mars, that would mean a single set of bags. New bags could be stored frozen, thawed when needed. But yes, used bags will be waste. This will be biomaterial. On a spacecraft it's just waste. On Mars, this can be composted so it can be added to soil.

IanM · 2018-11-23 19:59:39

RobertDyck wrote:

I believe exposure to oxygen in air will cause RuBP to oxidize rapidly.

I don't have the deepest knowledge of the biochemistry part of the process (just the general chemical equations and those of various other metabolisms), but I believe that's what is known as "photorespiration" and is a large source of CO2 waste in C3 plants, but which is fixed in C4 plants (this fix, however, doesn't entirely involve the chloroplast). And it's true that chloroplasts, on their own, can't survive for long without a nucleus because the process of endosymbiosis has throughout time involved transfer of most of the now-redundant chloroplast genome to the nucleus for efficiency, but some genes have stayed in the chloroplast for a variety of reasons (such as the genes being too hydrophobic to successfully move through the cytoplasm), and many of those are related to photosynthesis. Perhaps the remaining genes related to photosynthesis (and nothing else) can be transplanted back into the chloroplast to involve a fully-functional photosyntesis machine (or use a full-fledged cyanobacterium, but I don't think they produce the starch we want).

RobertDyck · 2018-11-24 04:01:40

Photorespiration in plants, in all it's detail. In this chart RuBP is shown in step 1 with its full name: Ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-01-06 13:27:52)

RobertDyck · 2018-11-24 04:09:59

Mechanisms in cyanobacteria. There are 3 pathways to recycle waste from photorespiration, only one has been retained by plants. And that one requires chemical steps outside the chloropolast. But cyanobacteria have 3 pathways: Glycerate pathway (used by plants), C2 cycle, and Decarboxylation.
F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

jfenciso · 2020-12-02 04:48:53

If you want to fix more CO2, I suggest the use of C4 crops like corn and sorghum. I know photorespiration, is a process in fixing CO2 when there is a high concentration of oxygen in the environment. Their product is toxic in plants such as glyoxylate. And, it causes more energy to utilize the glyoxylate. It is not recommended that there is a high concentration of oxygen in the plant environment. It could lower the yield and waste more energy from light.

The challenges in C4 plants are how to increase the edible yield of a crop like what kind of utilization we should do in stems, leaves, and cob. We should utilize every part of the plants to minimize waste.

I have an idea about photosynthesis because I enrolled a "Plant Photophysiology" course in my Master's degree.

Last edited by jfenciso (2020-12-02 04:49:59)

Calliban · 2020-12-05 18:05:53

Void's recent Apex Structures post got me thinking about the most efficient ways of producing food on Mars. Given the area of greenhouses needed to grow food for just one person, this would appear to me to be a far more difficult problem than habitat design. Human habitat design is relatively easy, so long as we are willing to live underground. The weight of rock and soil can then be used to counterbalance internal atmospheric pressure. But plants need light, so underground habitats would be a difficult place to raise food crops. Typically, we tend to imagine greenhouses, pressurised glass or plastic bubbles, heated with solar energy and waste heat to keep them warm. But this is quite a resource intensive way of doing things. It means having a greenhouse of at least 100m2 per person, which must be heated and farmed by someone who would be exposed to hard radiation.

In previous threads we have discussed the use of algae as a food source. This would appear to be the ideal food source under Martian conditions. Instead of acres of greenhouses needed to support a Martian colony, we could instead pump water containing algae, through transparent plastic pipes, sandwiched between layers of silica aerogel. This would essentially be solar panels for producing food. As the algae can be pumped, no one needs to tend or harvest crops on the hard radiation environment of the Martian surface. Harvesting can be carried out inside a habitat using a filter or a centrifuge.

The only remaining complication would be to come up with enough varieties of micro algae to provide balanced nutrition for the human diet. It must also be possible to process these algae into food sources that are palatable. This would appear to me to be a significant priority for Mars colonisation and would have side benefits for Earth as well. With food grown in solar farms on the surface that do not need to be tended, human existence could be almost entirely beneath the surface of the planet. Without the need for acres of pressurised greenhouses, human colonisation becomes substantially easier. Habitats can be built by putting up frames within holes in the ground, covering with a layer of polythene and then covering with overburden. Very quick and cheap to do.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-12-05 18:09:12)

SpaceNut · 2020-12-05 18:57:02

Growing Algae for Fuel - College of Agricultural Sciences

How do algae grow?

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-05 20:19:58

For Calliban re #20

Thank you for this reminder of the potential of algae for Mars ... I liked the points you made about pumping algae through pipes for exposure to sunlight and return to below ground for harvesting.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind anyone who might be interested in consumption of algae that the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society recently featured a speaker who has experience growing algae. A point I recall from the presentation is that the researcher discovered that live algae has no unpleasant taste or aroma when used in food preparation. Details may be found in the Other Space Organizations topic by searching for Houston and algae.

***
For SpaceNut re #21 ... those look like useful links!

(th)

jfenciso · 2020-12-06 23:27:30

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re #20
Thank you for this reminder of the potential of algae for Mars ... I liked the points you made about pumping algae through pipes for exposure to sunlight and return to below ground for harvesting.
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind anyone who might be interested in consumption of algae that the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society recently featured a speaker who has experience growing algae. A point I recall from the presentation is that the researcher discovered that live algae has no unpleasant taste or aroma when used in food preparation. Details may be found in the Other Space Organizations topic by searching for Houston and algae.
***
For SpaceNut re #21 ... those look like useful links!
(th)

If you want to make a research about the acceptability of algae as food. I suggest looking for any research paper about "Organoleptic study". This will serve as a guide in making a questionnaire for the public.

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-07 07:52:56

For jfenciso re #23

Thank you for continuing to contribute to the NewMars forum, and specifically to the topics that have to do with raising crops/food on Mars.

You are the only young person active in the group. Everyone else is either retired or in the late stages of a productive career.

You are young enough to be able to set a goal for your life, and allow the older folks here to cheer you along.

As a reminder, this forum is visible to the entire world, but I suspect there are few regular readers. Your posts may become visible to others who can help your career through referrals.

I am scrupulous here to avoid suggesting ** what ** you might decide to do. In the American tradition, that is ** entirely ** up to you. But I am hoping you will decide what your life goals are, and then announce them here.

If you want support, and approval of your achievements, there is a chance the older members of this forum will be willing to provide a hint or two from time to time. If you want assistance with specific questions, it is possible members here will be willing to help.

However, this forum is not like Quora, where you can show up and ask a question, and many people will jump at the chance to answer it.

I (personally) expect you to show the scholarship you claim. If you have a question, it should be ** after ** you have done the research that needs to be validated.

If you have created papers that have academic value, they should be available for study from an online library, such as provided by your University.

***
Regarding algae as food .... I provided you with a hint about research into growing food by a presenter to the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society. Instead of watching the video and commenting upon the presenter's experience and report of edibility of algae, you came up with a suggestion for another paper to read.

The Houston presenter would ** not ** need to read a paper. He did the actual research.

You can learn from the research he reported, and (if you are so inclined) report what ** you ** learned to the members of this forum, and perhaps you can write a paper about that research to offer to your academic committee.

The future of human settlement of Mars depends upon members of your generation.

Your peers in China, Russia, Europe, the Middle East, Canada and even the United States are intent upon careers that will allow them to contribute to the global undertaking. You are in position to bring the name of your Nation into the mix.

(th)

Terraformer · 2020-12-07 09:09:47

You are the only young person active in the group.

Ahem. 26 is not 'old'.

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#1 2018-10-29 05:21:08

Physiology of Martian crops

#2 2018-10-29 19:18:11

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#3 2018-10-29 19:27:15

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#4 2018-10-30 05:24:42

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#5 2018-10-30 07:09:47

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#6 2018-10-30 14:18:40

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#7 2018-10-30 17:44:05

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#8 2018-10-31 06:30:02

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#9 2018-11-08 08:41:20

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#10 2018-11-08 15:21:05

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#11 2018-11-15 04:19:32

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#12 2018-11-22 21:16:32

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#13 2018-11-22 23:40:11

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#14 2018-11-23 04:59:36

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#15 2018-11-23 07:59:04

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#16 2018-11-23 19:59:39

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#17 2018-11-24 04:01:40

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#18 2018-11-24 04:09:59

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#19 2020-12-02 04:48:53

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#20 2020-12-05 18:05:53

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#21 2020-12-05 18:57:02

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#22 2020-12-05 20:19:58

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#23 2020-12-06 23:27:30

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#24 2020-12-07 07:52:56

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

#25 2020-12-07 09:09:47

Re: Physiology of Martian crops

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