The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-13 15:46:25

soph;

Why not a five day week?

Because there's a group of people called Jews, and another called Christians, and still another called Muslims, and all three of these groups have observances every seven days. With a seven day week, everything is nice and easy and the whole colony is on the same schedual.

You might object that Martian days aren't the same as Earth days. Earth days aren't even the same everywhere. If it's 11 p.m. where you are, it's already tomorrow one time zone east. The important thing is the local light/dark cycle.

soph · 2003-04-13 15:48:37

AJ...it was in response to the 10 day week question--why not just cut it in half...that was what I was getting at.

But I agree, a 7 day week is best, if only for symbolic reasons (and Earth synchronization).

clark · 2003-04-14 11:26:26

The important thing is the local light/dark cycle.

Why?

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-14 19:40:08

clark;

Why?

Because that's how it's done. If you're Jewish, every seventh night is the start of Sabbath, regardless of when that night happens to fall. Christians mostly use the Roman clock, which starts at midnight instead of sunset, but the Roman clock is still based on the light/dark cycle. It has to do with the days in Genesis. "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

MarsGuy2012 · 2003-04-15 00:46:52

Hey Byron,

I just read one of your posts at the beginning of this thread and it just makes me laugh. :laugh:

You seem to think you know something about Mormons. (Do you even know our church's official name?)

Here's just a little correction for ya:

Saturdays are not sacred for Mormons - we do the Sunday thing. (I think you confused us with Seventh Day Adventists.)

Mormons believe in Christ. I think that would make us Christians.

So, just a little heads up, everyone. I'm a Mormon. If you have any questions about us you can ask me. If you want any good mormon jokes, ask me. I've got some good ones. :;):

BTW, I don't think we would start a large settlement on Mars. We only moved to Utah because of persecution in Illinois and Missouri. Now, we are well established throughout the world. We would send missionaries, though. You're not safe anywhere! Muhahahahaha!!!!!

P.S. Don't stop making fun of us though. I'll just correct you if you get the facts mixed up.

clark · 2003-04-15 04:39:07

Because that's how it's done.

Shall we make blood sacrafices as well?

What level of orthodoxy is satisfactory? Isn't the idea of the jewish sabath a bit dated given that everything on Mars or in space will require electricity?

In order to observe the particulars of their faith, they would have to turn off the power every seventh day. Brilliant.

Christians mostly use the Roman clock, which starts at midnight instead of sunset, but the Roman clock is still based on the light/dark cycle.

And why was the Roman clock based on the light/dark cycle? You're almost there!

It has to do with the days in Genesis. "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

If the Romans can move the birth of Christ to their All Feasts Day, then I think we are at liberty to change any Martian week.

Your argument is inane.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-17 20:15:12

MarsGuy2012;

Mormons believe in Christ. I think that would make us Christians.

Mormons are polytheist. I think that would make you heathens.

So, just a little heads up, everyone. I'm a Mormon. If you have any questions about us you can ask me.

Where'd all those horses and swords get off too?

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-17 20:34:49

clark;

Shall we make blood sacrafices as well?

As a matter of fact, if they still had the Temple, Jews would still practice animal sacrifice. If the Temple is ever rebuilt (which it might not, because some specific requirements have to be met first), they will resume them.

Since you aren't Jewish, who's "we"?

What level of orthodoxy is satisfactory? Isn't the idea of the jewish sabath a bit dated given that everything on Mars or in space will require electricity?

And isn't all that none of your business?

In order to observe the particulars of their faith, they would have to turn off the power every seventh day. Brilliant.

And they have sex through a big sheet with a hole in it! Those Jews are weird!

Get serious.

If the Romans can move the birth of Christ to their All Feasts Day, then I think we are at liberty to change any Martian week.

Again, who's "we"?

Christians who happened to be Roman (NOT pagan Romans) decided they might as well use that date since they didn't know the real one. This has exactly nothing with the notion that "we" are "at liberty" to mess with other people's religions. Do you think you're "at liberty" to make Hindus eat beef? Or maybe you can rewrite Confucian classics to make them "modern".

All I'm asking for is a system which accomodates everyone equally, and you people have the chutzpah to be offended at this.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-17 20:56:01

Why haven't we all simply accepted Zubrin's system (or a similar system where the seconds are longer and we have 7 day weeks) on the first few pages of this thread and have been done with it?

Not that I'm trying to discourage discussion here, but I think this has devolved into a religious debate.

Phobos · 2003-04-17 21:06:43

Do you think you're "at liberty" to make Hindus eat beef? Or maybe you can rewrite Confusian classics to make them "modern".

Since the state holds all rights it can legally and rightfully coerce the lowly individual as it sees fit. After all, in Clark's colony you wouldn't even be allowed to raise your own children, they'd be taken from you to be raised by "professionals." The individual means nothing, the collective means everything. Can't wait to immigrate to Clark's colony. I have an extra ticket if you want to come along AJ.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-17 21:18:53

Don't worry, A.J. has shown that he doesn't mind a welfare state. :;):

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-17 21:30:56

Phobos;

Can't wait to immigrate to Clark's colony. I have an extra ticket if you want to come along AJ.

Uh... I think I'll pass, at least until clark gets tossed out the airlock.

(And ignore the fellow who doesn't know what a "welfare state" is.)

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-17 21:37:26

Pfft... I wouldn't mind Clark's colony. If it winds up being a dictatorship, I'll just overthrow him and his scumbag cohorts... though I might keep behind all the birth control equipment... stupid kids running around are annoying...

And... I'm sure people would agree with that definition of a welfare state. :;):

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-17 21:49:59

Josh Cryer;

And... I'm sure people would agree with that definition of a welfare state.

A welfare state is about giving welfare to a significant segment of the population. A small base which resembles a military installation is about hard work and obeying orders.

Sounds almost like clark's state, only it has a little more freedom. In Golconda 3.0, I wasn't describing how it could be settled fully in conformity with the free-market principles it would follow as a mature settlement, but the most realistic and likely scenario.

clark · 2003-04-21 07:18:48

Can't wait to immigrate to Clark's colony. I have an extra ticket if you want to come along AJ.

LOL.

Clark's colony... thank you.

Palomar · 2003-12-03 14:27:37

*Two evenings ago I read about the calendar adopted by the National Convention of France, during their Revolution (which brought this thread -- long since abandoned -- to mind).

Consider it food for thought:

The NC declared September 22, 1792 "Year One." The leaders of the NC wanted to make a complete break with the past and all former official holidays (both religious and secular). The old calendar was struck down and "Year One" was announced.

The NC stuck with 12 months of the year, but with these differences:

1. Thirty days in each month.
2. Three 10-day weeks.
3. Five days a month reserved for republican festivals.

The names of the months were changed; the new ones were (sorry, don't have access to those little accent dillybobs):

Vendemiaire (Vintage Month)
Brumaire (Month of Mists)
Frimaire (Freezing Month)
Nivose (Snow Month)
Pluviose (Month of Rains)
Ventose (Windy Month)
Germinal (Plants Begin to Germinate)
Floreal (Month of Flowers)
Prairial (Time of the Hayfields)
Messidor (Harvest Moon)
Thermidor (The Hot Season)
Fructidor (Month of Fruits)

Such lovely names!

I read this information in _Tom Paine: America's Godfather_ by W.E. Woodward (published 1945). A really excellent book.

I'm wondering, once a colony proper is established, if they will consider going the "Year One" route and breaking with Terran ties altogether.

--Cindy

A.J.Armitage · 2003-12-03 15:44:04

ecrasez_l_infame;

Uh...

It's a given they'll start with year 1 or year 0, because Mars can't use the Terran calender. Different revolutions around the Sun, different length days.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-04 07:28:09

Hi Cindy!
Please excuse me if this is a silly question (it's late at night again! ), but does 'Vendemiaire' correspond to October?
???

Palomar · 2003-12-04 07:41:50

Hi Cindy!
Please excuse me if this is a silly question (it's late at night again! ), but does 'Vendemiaire' correspond to October?
???

*Well, Mr. Woodward didn't give a correspondence with the original calendar (unfortunately), but as Year One began in September, I presume "Vendemiaire" pertained to September.

But since the change was adopted on the 22nd of September (far into the month), perhaps it was a "skip ahead" to the next month...October.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-12-04 08:32:12

Hi Cindy!
Please excuse me if this is a silly question (it's late at night again! ), but does 'Vendemiaire' correspond to October?
???
*Well, Mr. Woodward didn't give a correspondence with the original calendar (unfortunately), but as Year One began in September, I presume "Vendemiaire" pertained to September.
But since the change was adopted on the 22nd of September (far into the month), perhaps it was a "skip ahead" to the next month...October.
--Cindy

French Revolution Calendar

*Shaun, here is a breakdown of the months. I fortunately was able to find it very quickly on Google (I was anticipating a rather difficult search).

Interesting that they opted for 10-day weeks. Hmmmmm.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-05 05:35:51

Thanks Cindy!
All this is news to me. Or at least, if I ever knew about it, I've long since forgotten!
I know that the Catholic church was instrumental in causing this new calendar to be abandoned, but I wonder whether it would have been scrapped eventually anyway because of its perceived 'strangeness' (?).
It makes me suspect all the more that making the Martian calendar any 'stranger' than is absolutely necessary will meet with resistance. Apart from anthing else, new colonists, so far from home, undoubtedly will crave familiar things around them.
What could be more familiar and comforting than spring in April, winter and Christmas in December, drinks on Friday night, sport on Saturday, a sleep-in on Sunday morning, and that old phrase: '24 hours a day, 668 days a year' ... Oops! Oh well, I guess you can't have everything!!

Hazer · 2003-12-05 10:36:51

On the subject of timekeeping: Sure you can make whatever calender you want fit, but it'll all boil down to what the original colonists want to do.
Come to think of it, the Martian dating system could possible be decided by virtue of some fellow having a pin-up calendar.

If the original colonists are Americans primarily (Which I hope they are), then it is very likely that they will retain the idea of the weekend-which is a somewhat Christian/Jewish idea. I don't know about Islam.
But anyhow, regardless of what you believe, I for one think that having a "day of rest" or two is a bloody good idea.

Why get rid of it? It works.
Calenderwise, you might want to go by Mars-Time, but maintain Earth-time as Universal Time. Ultimately, I think there's nothing wrong with manipulating the Gregorian calendar a bit-if you need it to fit Mars. Just make up a few months.
Bah, we don't need to accomodate everyone-because resting on the weekends is entirely optional. And in my book, if you don't want to rest two days outta the week-you're nuts.
I think we need weekends. After all, wouldn't things seem to drag on and on-if you had nothing to look forward to in the short term?

clark · 2003-12-08 10:17:34

What could be more familiar and comforting than spring in April, winter and Christmas in December, drinks on Friday night, sport on Saturday, a sleep-in on Sunday morning, and that old phrase: '24 hours a day, 668 days a year' ... Oops! Oh well, I guess you can't have everything!!

Well, maybe some southern hemisphere people can shed some light on this: When is winter, in july, or in April?

Seasonal variation differs on Earth- there is no seasonal variation on Mars becuase everyone lives inside.

I think time will be dependant upon orbital positions- with the close approach of Earth to Mars being something of the Vernal (spring) equinox, and the farthest distance between Earth and Mars being the winter equinox. Most supplies and visitors will arrive in the "Spring". the least supplies and ability to communicate with Earth is in Winter.

Hazer · 2004-01-20 00:40:04

Well, just a quick thought on Holidays.

Martian Holidays will likely include...

1. Some sort of Holiday to Commemorate the first human landing on Mars. Happy First Landing all!

2. Days named in Honour of Mars probes.
For instance: Today is the first Viking Day! (Where we all dress up like vikings, drink beer and wrestle!-Think a St. Patrick's Day that had a train wreck with a Renaissance faire or three)
On Pathfinder day, we all run about. On the day of Spirit, we do extreme sports in commemoration of that first bouncy re-entry.
3. Other national holidays as needed.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-20 01:21:58

Naturally, there is really no such thing as an absolute winter or summer on Earth as a planetary body; you have to specify northern winter or southern summer, etc.
I have always proposed keeping things on Mars as much like Earth as possible, with the middle of the northern summer falling in June/July and so on. This was the basis of 'my' martian calendar, which I put forward in this thread some time ago.
The fact that I mentioned the familiarity of "spring in April, winter and Christmas in December .. ", was out of deference to the peoples of the northern hemisphere who post at these boards and whom I imagine form the majority of contributors(?). In addition, it recognises that the people most likely to colonise Mars first will be from the northern hemisphere: The U.S., Russia, Europe, Japan and China.
It seems unlikely to me that South American countries, sub-Saharan African countries, or indeed my own country, Australia, will be prominent players in the early human exploration of the Red Planet ... more's the pity!!

Clark draws attention to fact that, when you live in an insulated bubble, it ain't gonna matter much to you whether it's winter or summer outside anyhow! So why bother matching seasons with the appropriate Earth months when you live on Mars?
This is indeed a valid point, as long as you propose to live in your bubble forever. But, as I pointed out in my suggestion for a martian calendar, if the day ever dawns (as I hope it will) when Mars has been terraformed sufficiently for humans to stand unprotected on its surface, won't it be reassuring and familiar if the northern hemisphere spring comes in a month called April and Christmas (for those who celebrate it) in December?

In any event, since I guess all of us here will be long dead before any of this occurs, I suppose it won't matter a great deal. But I still like 'my' calendar better than any alternatives I've seen so far ... so there!
Nah, nanah, nanah naaahhh!!!
:laugh:

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#101 2003-04-13 15:46:25

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#102 2003-04-13 15:48:37

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#103 2003-04-14 11:26:26

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#104 2003-04-14 19:40:08

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#105 2003-04-15 00:46:52

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#106 2003-04-15 04:39:07

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#107 2003-04-17 20:15:12

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#108 2003-04-17 20:34:49

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#109 2003-04-17 20:56:01

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#110 2003-04-17 21:06:43

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#111 2003-04-17 21:18:53

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#112 2003-04-17 21:30:56

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#113 2003-04-17 21:37:26

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#114 2003-04-17 21:49:59

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#115 2003-04-21 07:18:48

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#116 2003-12-03 14:27:37

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#117 2003-12-03 15:44:04

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#118 2003-12-04 07:28:09

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#119 2003-12-04 07:41:50

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#120 2003-12-04 08:32:12

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#121 2003-12-05 05:35:51

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#122 2003-12-05 10:36:51

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#123 2003-12-08 10:17:34

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#124 2004-01-20 00:40:04

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#125 2004-01-20 01:21:58

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

Board footer