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Shaun: "The moons of Mars are comparative tiddlers - small bits of cosmic detritus which happen to have found themselves orbiting a planet in a region of the solar system far from their point of origin. They raise no tides - even if there were seas again on Mars, they still wouldn't raise tides!"
*Well, that's been a concern of mine (tidal issues), and is the main reason I'm concerned about moving moons around.
Shaun: "If you are prepared to fundamentally alter the environment of a whole planet (terraforming Mars), can moving a couple of stray asteroids from one orbit to another really be such a moral watershed? I'm not trying to be facetious or scathing in any way, I assure you, and I'm perfectly willing to listen to arguments contrary to this line of thinking. (Remember I've been married 23 years ... I'm more than used to the airing of arguments contrary to my own!!! )"
*Erm...gee, I hope I'm not reminding you of disagreements with your wife. You pinned me on that one, Shaun. Yes, I know it seems an absolute contradiction that I'm pro-terraforming and yet have this issue with Mars' moons. I just didn't know we were planning on changing the entire danged system of Mars -- moons included.
I knew it would sound contradictory when I made my initial post.
Shaun: "Some people here at New Mars have advocated mining Phobos and Deimos for volatiles - using them as 'gas stations' for our inner solar system transportation needs."
*Yes, I've read related posts. I don't mind Phobos and Deimos being used, say, as storage facilities (noninvasive)...but I have qualms about obliterating them to chards for mining purposes. They are so small, as you point out...so mining capabilities would be necessarily limited anyway (and the effort may prove unprofitable in that regard).
Shaun: "Some have suggested hollowing them out for space stations and living inside them!"
*Which seems absolutely absurd, which is why I've not debated this particular aspect.
Shaun: "Up until now, nobody has expressed any regret at the thought of exploiting them mercilessly."
*Actually, I believe I have raised issue with mining them in the past (but of course, I could be faulty in my recall).
Shaun: "Given their insignificance and apparent interloper status, it's actually quite surprising to hear a voice raised in their defence!"
*And so now Shaun knows Cindy can be as unpredictable as a hiccup! It's just the ::MANNER:: in which you guys are discussing this which troubles me. I like to think long-term and regarding possible consequences. You know there's going to be future Marsians pdp (pretty damned pissed) at their forebearers having destroyed their moons for them! Please...let's give future Marsians some consideration.
Shaun: "I, personally, don't have a problem with utilising or shifting the Martian moons to achieve our ends but I'm sure there will be others not so cold-blooded about it. I guess I'm addressing one of them right now?!!"
*Do I look like a lizard to you, honey?
--Cindy
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
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Regarding Soph's question whether the moons always cross the equator at the same places: that information is never stated in textbooks, but one can quickly figure out that they do not. Their orbital period relative to the surface of Mars would have to be an even fraction of the period of rotation. For example, if a moon were in aerosynchronous orbit, it would cross the equator twice a day and it would always be the same spot. If a moon were to revolve around Mars exactly twice every Mars-rotation, it would cross the equator probably in two spots. But if it were to revolve around Mars 2.01 times per rotation, the crossing spot would slowly "wander" around Mars.
-- RobS
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So if you were to use an oil rig (in water), or a mobile structure (on land) as your base, it would be fairly "easy" to move it out of harm's way, avoiding any collision?
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Excuse me interrupting your exchange, Rob and Soph.
I just wanted to thank Rob for pointing out the NOW OBVIOUS (! ) reason why the equatorial crossing points will 'wander' around the planet.
In retrospect, I don't know why it didn't dawn on me straight away.
New depths of my stupidity have now been plumbed!!
Thanks again, Rob!
[P.S. I daresay Soph feels the same way I do - maybe we should form a club of the 'orbitally-challenged'! :laugh: ]
The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down. - Rita Rudner
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Everybody: Any space station in low planetary orbit is a "tiddler" too ... so it should be obvious that your two Martian tiddlers, Phobos and Deimos, are invaluable just where they are, as ready-made space platforms. Why doesn't anyone propose digging up Mt. Kilamanjaro (with Tanzania's permission of course) and clear it away from the ideal location it occupies in order to replace it with a space launching ramp? Same damn thing. Grr-r!
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Actually, no. Mt. Kilamanjaro is not already in motion, so inertia favors the Martian moons in terms of ability to be moved. :laugh:
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Actually, no. Mt. Kilamanjaro is not already in motion, so inertia favors the Martian moons in terms of ability to be moved. :laugh:
You're a right wee devil .. you know that? :angry:
(By the way, I've mispelled the mountain. It's: Kilimanjaro.)
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Hey, hey, hey!!
Calm down, Dicktice! Take a blood pressure pill and try to think of nice things.
We're not all determined to take your little 'tiddlers' away from you (... move 'em a bit, maybe ... ! )
No. The truth is I'm sure we're all open to persuasion and no final decisions have yet been made. We're just shootin' the breeze here!
The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down. - Rita Rudner
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Cindy said:
...I'm simply wondering if any of you are taking into consideration the fact that there would be enormous amounts of protest by various environmental groups and the like
The moons are already going to be lost to Mars in one fashion or another. Phobos will eventually crash into Mars and Deimos will just fly off into interplanetary space the way our own moon is doing. Both moons are just tiny, captured asteroids anyhow. With all of this talk about the danger the moons pose to space elevators the ultimate solution would simply to move the satellites into appropriate orbits with the right velocities and use them as the counterweights for space elevators. Problem solved and you'd basically have a direct link to a giant iceball for the taking. A project for far in the future of course!
To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd
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We're not all determined to take your little 'tiddlers' away from you (... move 'em a bit, maybe ... ! )
No. The truth is I'm sure we're all open to persuasion and no final decisions have yet been made.
Geeze, Shaun, that's a relief! Those little tykes deserve to be protected ... and it leaves me free to concentrate more on how to launch cheapest up to LEO. Thanks, mate.
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a very old thread from 20 years ago, times have changed and spaceflight has commercial companies and new feats but maybe an old topic worth bumping
Industry, access to skilled people and material resources and Political stability might be important for a region on Mars
Von Braun also had Proposed African and Christmas Island launch sites
US, Russians, French Ariane site and Italians since 1959
https://web.archive.org/web/20110722180 … launch.pdf
the Brazil site
SMER is located near the town of Malindi on Kenya’s Indian Ocean coast at 3o South latitude. The launch area consists of three “off shore-type” platforms standing on steel legs above the ocean floor
However there is no point to go to the Equator if you are going to move into a politically unstable region with riots, economic recession and a place on the verge of 'Civil War'
Cape Canaveral is 28°29′20″N , Xichang China is 28°14′45.66″N and Starbase Texas 25°59′15″N while the first Spaceport at Baikonaur is much higher North at 45.965°N
The launch site in the country of India and French Guiana in South America are closer to the Equator
using Pavonis Mons near the Equator on Mars and on Earth?
https://everydayastronaut.com/why-dont- … e-equator/
Why Dont They Launch from Mountains or Equator?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m75t4x1V2o
Could US Navy's Railgun Help Tap Moon's Resources?
https://www.space.com/navy-railgun-test … ation.html
'International Space Elevator Consortium'
https://www.isec.org/what-we-do
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-01 18:17:10)
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A maglev system on the moon could make lunar logistics a breeze
https://phys.org/news/2023-08-maglev-mo … reeze.html
Maglevs are one of those technologies that still look like magic, even years after they were initially rolled out. While they have long been a workhorse of the transportation systems of some major cities, they don't often impact the day-to-day lives of people who don't use them to commute. But, they might be invaluable in another setting—lunar exploration. There's an ongoing debate about the best way to shuttle stuff around on the moon's surface, and a team from JPL and a company called SRI International think they have a solution—deploy a maglev track on the moon.
The project, known as the Flexible Levitation on a Track (FLOAT) system, is simple in concept. It is based on a concept developed at SRI that showcases the ability to float small robots over a platform and precisely control their movements using a form of magnetic levitation. Scale-wise, as seen in the video below, the technology so far is still small. However, the FLOAT team received a NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) grant to research how scaling up the technology would work on the moon.
Arguably the most crucial part of the technology is the track. It consists of two necessary and a third optional layer. The base layer is graphite, allowing robots to use a force called diamagnetic levitation to float above the track. A second layer is a series of circuits that control the magnetic fields around the track, allowing users to push or stop carts that are moving along it. The optional third layer is a series of solar panels that can collect solar energy while daylight is on that side of the moon.
Italy Proposes Minimalist Lunar Outpost For Artemis
https://hackaday.com/2023/12/04/italy-p … r-artemis/
What Is Random Vibration Testing?
https://vibrationresearch.com/resources … n-testing/
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