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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,105

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Hello Jayson,

Good to see new people with new abilities and ideas.

I originally started this thread, as I want to see to what extent humans could embrace and exploit characteristics of Mars that usually put people off.

We have quite a few people here who return to the garden Earth, and hope to revise Mars to another such garden Earth.  It is not wrong.
However, I seek to see what is in reality Mars now, and how to make it work for us since it is like that.

I am a bit of a quack, have no significant degree, so feel free to ignore me as you may wish.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169015/
Quote:

Dechloromonas sp. strain HZ uses hydrogen as an electron donor

So, my thinking was like this.  If you split H20 or CO2 for Oxygen for human purposes, what can you do with the fuels you generate?  If it is Oxygen that people breath, then you have no Oxygen to use with the fuels.

While the soils of Mars may have from 1% to .5% perchlorate by content, I would prefer to hope that aquifers exist that are very cold, and also perchlorate saturated.  I prefer to work with fluids, it is typically easier.

Apparently there are microbes which will process perchlorates if they are given a fuel.  So, then we hope that there could be useful products from that process.

You then need a place for this living process to occur, a containment.  It appears that there is enough water, mostly ice, on Mars to cover the surface with a very significant layer.  In my mind I choose ice covered reservoirs.  On Mars such reservoirs need to be covered by a protective material.  Several things have been suggested.  It should be a possible thing to do.

So, if you have a reservoir of water into which you pump perchlorate laden water, and you also introduce H2 and CO, then you should have a metabolism of microbes in the water.

Another factor suspected in the Martian undergrounds is Methane.  There emissions naturally, so it is possible that there would be clathrates of Methane and other substances under the surface.  The reservoir bottom being at least above freezing, the permafrost under it should melt gradually, perhaps releasing more perchlorates and Methane.

Sand dune material:  Presents a significant problem to use.  Obtaining, transporting, and using.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars
Quote:

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[55] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[56] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

Unfortunately Spacenut has educated me as to the problem of Hexavalent Chromium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium
Quote:

Remediation of hexavalent chromium in groundwater and drinking water[edit]
There are mainly three types of methods to remediate hexavalent chromium in ground water and drinking water: 1) reduction of toxicity, 2) removal technologies and 3) containment technologies.[14] Reduction of toxicity of hexavalent chromium involves methods using chemicals, microbes and plants. [17]

So, that does have to be solved before you would dump dune materials into the mix.

Why dump dune materials into the mix?  Well these are the hopes:
1) I hope that the materials are not completely Oxidized.  It is a reasonable hope, as it is mostly basalt fragments, and has a dark color.  Not a red color as in Hematite.  If there is room for Oxidation then there may be a production of Hydrogen, by contact with the water mix.
2) I hope that these minerals will dissolve in the water due to oxidation and microbial processes, and that it will be possible to extract the dissolved metals chromium, iron, and titanium.  It is possible that gm organisms might be designed to do that, or some type of electroplating could be used.

It is perhaps also possible to generate clay by processing the basalt, but that requires specific conditions I believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay#Formation
Quote: (Forming clay)

Formation[edit]
Deforestation for clay extraction in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The picture is of Morro da Covanca, Jacarepaguá.
Clay minerals typically form over long periods of time as a result of the gradual chemical weathering of rocks, usually silicate-bearing, by low concentrations of carbonic acid and other diluted solvents. These solvents, usually acidic, migrate through the weathering rock after leaching through upper weathered layers. In addition to the weathering process, some clay minerals are formed through hydrothermal activity. There are two types of clay deposits: primary and secondary. Primary clays form as residual deposits in soil and remain at the site of formation. Secondary clays are clays that have been transported from their original location by water erosion and deposited in a new sedimentary deposit.[4] Clay deposits are typically associated with very low energy depositional environments such as large lakes and marine basins.

Having gone through the talk about dune materials, I will say that if they are not as a whole picture more use that problem, then they can be left out.
……

As a better case situation, we could hope that we can extract the microbes for industrial purposes or to grow mushrooms, and that the soil at the bottom of the reservoir will end up more suitable for agriculture.  Perhaps with clay in it.
Here is something nice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungiculture
Quote:

Fungiculture is the process of producing food, medicine, and other products by the cultivation of mushrooms and other fungi. A mushroom farm is in the business of growing fungi.
The word is also commonly used to refer to the practice of cultivating fungi by leafcutter ants, termites, ambrosia beetles, and marsh periwinkles.

And such fungus probably does not need light or the electric power to produce light.

So here is something you might like:
https://plantscience.psu.edu/research/c … hroom-soil
Quote:

Spent mushroom substrate is the composted organic material remaining after a crop of mushrooms is harvested. Mushrooms are grown in a mixture of natural products, including horse-bedded straw (straw from horse stables), hay, poultry manure, ground corn cobs, cottonseed hulls, gypsum, and other substances. This mixture is composted in piles or ricks, creating a dark brown, fibrous, and pliable organic growing media. When the composting process is complete, the media is brought into mushroom houses where it is placed into beds or trays and used as a substrate for growing mushrooms. After the mushrooms are harvested, the "spent" substrate is removed from the houses and pasteurized with steam to kill insects, pathogens, and mushroom remnants.

So the soil might get better on the bottom of a reservoir, and then we could make it even better with mushrooms, and get a mushroom crop as well.

So then a lighted greenhouse to use the soil.  I should inform you that I am a bit of a doubter of pressurized glass greenhouses.  I want to see one pressurize long term work before I will change my mind.

So I prefer opaque enclosures with artificial lighting.  Typically I prefer them at the bottom of a water reservoir to provide pressurization.

Or maybe in a Boring Company tunnel under a water reservoir.

But if someone succeeds in making a glass greenhouse (Or plastic) that can endure the environment of Mars, and is cost effective, I will happily repent.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-28 17:17:46)

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Done.

knightdepaix

Member

Registered: 2014-07-07

Posts: 239

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Unfortunately Spacenut has educated me as to the problem of Hexavalent Chromium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium
Quote:

Remediation of hexavalent chromium in groundwater and drinking water[edit]
There are mainly three types of methods to remediate hexavalent chromium in ground water and drinking water: 1) reduction of toxicity, 2) removal technologies and 3) containment technologies.[14] Reduction of toxicity of hexavalent chromium involves methods using chemicals, microbes and plants. [17]

So, that does have to be solved before you would dump dune materials into the mix.
Why dump dune materials into the mix?  Well these are the hopes:
1) I hope that the materials are not completely Oxidized.  It is a reasonable hope, as it is mostly basalt fragments, and has a dark color.  Not a red color as in Hematite.  If there is room for Oxidation then there may be a production of Hydrogen, by contact with the water mix.
2) I hope that these minerals will dissolve in the water due to oxidation and microbial processes, and that it will be possible to extract the dissolved metals chromium, iron, and titanium.  It is possible that gm organisms might be designed to do that, or some type of electroplating could be used.

Can the hydrocarbon or carbohydrates products on Mars be used to reduce hexavalent Chromium, possibly all the way to the metal. For killing unwanted microorganisms, ferrate(VI) -- or hexavalent iron -- could be used instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferrate
The reduction product after disinfectants is FeOOH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_oxide-hydroxide
Recently, two forms of Iron oxide-hydroxides nanoparticles were identified as very good adsorbents for lead removal from aquatic media

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,105

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Didn't see your reply.  Looks like we have a lot of questions to answer.

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,105

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Here is something of interest. Power from rust.  Natural like.
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-naturally … hesis.html
Quote:

Naturally occurring 'batteries' fueled organic carbon synthesis on Mars
October 31, 2018, Carnegie Institution for Science

Mosaic image of Mars created from over 100 images taken by Viking Orbiters in the 1970s. Credit: NASA
Mars' organic carbon may have originated from a series of electrochemical reactions between briny liquids and volcanic minerals, according to new analyses of three Martian meteorites from a team led by Carnegie's Andrew Steele published in Science Advances.

The group's analysis of a trio of Martian meteorites that fell to Earth—Tissint, Nakhla, and NWA 1950—showed that they contain an inventory of organic carbon that is remarkably consistent with the organic carbon compounds detected by the Mars Science Laboratory's rover missions.
In 2012, Steele led a team that determined the organic carbon found in 10 Martian meteorites did indeed come from the Red Planet and was not due to contamination from Earth, but also that the organic carbon did not have a biological origin. This new work takes his research to the next step—trying to understand how Mars' organic carbon was synthesized, if not by biology.
Organic molecules contain carbon and hydrogen, and sometimes include oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, and other elements. Organic compounds are commonly associated with life, although they can be created by non-biological processes as well, which are referred to as abiotic organic chemistry.
"Revealing the processes by which organic carbon compounds form on Mars has been a matter of tremendous interest for understanding its potential for habitability," Steele said.

High-resolution Transmission Electron Micrograph (scale 50nm) of a grain from a Martian meteorite. Reminiscent of a long dinner fork, the organic carbon layers are found between the intact 'tines.' This texture is created when the volcanic …more
He and his co-authors took a deep dive into the minerology of these three Martian meteorites. Using advanced microscopy and spectroscopy, they were able to determine that the meteorites' organic compounds were likely created by electrochemical corrosion of minerals in Martian rocks by a surrounding salty liquid brine.
"The discovery that natural systems can essentially form a small corrosion-powered battery that drives electrochemical reactions between minerals and surrounding liquid has major implications for the astrobiology field," Steele explained.
A similar process could occur anywhere that igneous rocks are surrounded by brines, including the subsurface oceans of Jupiter's moon Europa, Saturn's moon Enceladus, and even some environments here on Earth, particularly early in this planets' history.

And I would say that Medusae Fossae has a whole lot of volcanic materials which may not yet be oxidized, and then there are the sand dune basalt particles blowing in the wind.  "The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.  The answer is blowing in the wind."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusae_Fossae_Formation
Quote:

It has an area equal to 20% the size of the continental United States.

Radar imaging has suggested that the region may contain either extremely porous rock (for example volcanic ash) or deep layers of glacier-like ice deposits amounting to about the same quantity as is stored in Mars' south polar cap.

Comparisons of elemental composition suggest that the Medusae Fossae Formation has been the main source of Mars' ubiquitous surface dust.

Obviously the story of water being there has to be confirmed, but if it is there, then we have an enormous battery to run a biosphere, and maybe we can even figure out how to get electricity from it.

The rusting process should provide Hydrogen, CO2 injected into the brine waters should help to promote rusting of the materials.

Definitely worth a look I feel.  Chemosynthesis on steroids perhaps.  Methane for terraforming from rust perhaps.

Not Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-31 13:14:21)

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Done.

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,267

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Highly oxidizing chemical salts that can become fuels, make excellent solid rocket propellants but are harmful to humans yet they can be put to other uses. An ESA Orbiter took that famous pic of water in the crater and the Phoenix Lander also shows what seems to be water just below the surface. Some satellite and radar and previously only worked down to about a meter deep. Perhaps we need Sample Returns before we 'know' what is truly happening.

Farming on Mars: Treatment of basaltic regolith soil and briny water simulants sustains plant growth.
https://europepmc.org/article/MED/35976812

Perchlorate on Mars: a chemical hazard and a resource for humans
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … 198C6FD4AB

Moon and Mars superoxides for oxygen farming
https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … en_farming