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#1 2018-04-12 03:58:18

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,938

Life on Mars?

Don't recall seeing this one before...University study suggests Rover may have found evidence of past hot spring type life on Mars:

https://www.space.com/34795-mars-life-n … rover.html


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2018-10-19 06:41:33

Airman
Member
Registered: 2018-10-19
Posts: 1

Re: Life on Mars?

This looks interesting honestly! It is crazy to imagine that there can be life or was at some point... Sometimes I dream about going there ))) And I guess I would prefer to do so than to live in my apartment in Netherlands

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#3 2018-10-22 18:06:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,442

Re: Life on Mars?

https://www.space.com/42210-mars-brines … -life.html
Quote:

Salty water buried just beneath the Martian surface could have enough dissolved oxygen to support microbes, and perhaps even simple animal life such as sponges in some places, a new study suggests.

And if no life perhaps Oxygen can be extracted from those aquifers.  If there are substantial Methane deposits in the subsurface then perhaps combustion or fuel cell drive electric power.

……

On the other hand, if there is life or not, perhaps a process can be designed to extract Oxygen from the atmosphere using such cold brines.  I would presume that the Oxygen would have come either from the atmosphere or Perchlorates.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-22 18:11:34)


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#4 2018-10-23 04:53:50

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 927

Re: Life on Mars?

Free oxygen in Mars atmosphere is present as a trace only. The easy way to get oxygen from atmospheric gas is to reduce CO2 to CO.

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#5 2018-10-23 07:43:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,442

Re: Life on Mars?

Yes, they have not explained how the Oxygen concentration would be higher than that of the atmosphere.

Does sub-freezing brine preferentially absorb oxygen from the atmosphere at the exclusion of other gasses?

Does the Oxygen come from Perchlorates created by dust devils?

Or, are they just saying that if you put the Oxygen in the brine it could be at higher concentrations than the atmosphere.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-23 09:04:09)


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#6 2018-10-23 09:06:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,442

Re: Life on Mars?

So, I took a look around, knowing that dust devils likely create Hydrogen Peroxide.
https://sciencing.com/hydrogen-peroxide … 06163.html
Quote:

Hydrogen Peroxide Has Limited Antibacterial Effects
Hydrogen peroxide is widely used as an antibacterial agent, but there are contrary opinions about its effectiveness. Certain types of aerobic bacteria, such as staphylococci, or "staph," have an enzyme called catalase, which breaks hydrogen peroxide down to water and oxygen, effectively diluting it. When hydrogen peroxide is foaming in a cut, some of that foam is oxygen liberated by the bacteria defending themselves. But some of the foam comes from destroyed fibroblasts, which also have catalase. A "catalase test" uses hydrogen peroxide to determine whether an unknown sample of bacteria is aerobic or anaerobic.

Possibilities of Hydrogen Peroxide from Dust Devils, maybe global dust storms as well.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/whi … 06.article
Quote:

Based on these measurements, the team suggest that up to 200 times more hydrogen peroxide can be produced through ionisation in dust devils than through photochemistry alone. The presence of so much hydrogen peroxide could ’be one way to explain why methane can be spatially non-uniform,’ said Catling, and may mean that far more methane is being produced by Mars than previous measurements have suggested.
Martian dust devils can be up to 10 kilometres high and hundreds of metres across. The scientists believe that dust devils’ electricity breaks up water vapour in the atmosphere into reactive hydroxyl radicals and negative hydride ions. Carbon dioxide is similarly split into carbon dioxide and negative oxygen ions. This highly-charged soup can then recombine into a variety of different products, including hydrogen peroxide.

There seems to be a mistake in this where it is bold.  I think they would have intended Carbon Monoxide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide
So a dusty snow of Hydrogen Peroxide, perhaps with some salts.  What is a brine of salty Hydrogen Peroxide like?
Could it flow down to the underground brine water pools?

If Methane is in fact emitted by some process underground, then you may have a solution having some Hydrogen Peroxide which some Earth organisms could break down to Oxygen and Water.  And then there may be Methane.  Possibly Hydrogen generated by oxidation of regolith, and then their is the Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere.  I am sure an organism with Hemoglobin could attract concentrations of Carbon Monoxide.

So, then optimistically, Oxygen, Methane, Hydrogen, and Carbon Monoxide.  Still the brines will be very cold and very salty.  Perhaps Billions of years of evolution might create organisms which can handle it however.

It does suggest that such life could be related to Earth life from a time distant panspermia, if such life exists.

It might have to tolerate long periods of lower Oxygen though.  Between Hydrogen Peroxide snows.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-23 09:21:28)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#7 2018-10-24 04:24:04

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 927

Re: Life on Mars?

Hydrogen peroxide solution in water (or water solution in peroxide) has a lowest melting point of around -50C if memory serves correctly. It is certainly well below zero C. What the effect of any other components in the solution might have is undefined, except for urea which coprecipitates with the peroxide as crystals containing about 35% peroxide.

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#8 2018-10-24 13:17:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,442

Re: Life on Mars?

That's helpful.

Here is more.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/ … 9DDKPZFzIU
I have looked as several articles like this.   They seem to imply that there is some process where the cold brine might attract Oxygen from the atmosphere.
Quote:

“We never thought that oxygen could play a role for life on Mars due to its rarity in the atmosphere, about 0.14 percent,” Stamenkovic said.

And yet;
Quote:

“Oxygen concentrations (on Mars) are orders of magnitude” — several hundred times — “greater than needed by aerobic, or oxygen-breathing — microbes,” the study concluded.
“Our results do not imply that there is life on Mars,” Stamenkovic cautioned. “But they show that the Martian habitability is affected by the potential of dissolved oxygen.”

Some articles indicate that some places may even be able to support simple multicellular animals something like sponges.

For me this contradicts what I thought I knew about Henry's law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry%27s_law

But it is Mars after all, and Henry's law was formulated for Earth conditions we are familiar with.
……

And here is some more fun, how Dust Storms and Dust Devils on Mars are thought to generate Chlorates and ultimately Perchlorates.
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-electrici … rates.html
Quote:

In the low-density Mars-like atmosphere, which has less than one percent of the atmospheric pressure of the Earth, charged particles are less likely to accumulate at a distance to form the dramatic spiking arc of lightning. Instead, wind events carrying sand and dust are more likely to develop near-surface electric fields that result in either Townsend Dark Discharge, an effect which is not visible, or normal glow discharge—which appears, just as it sounds, as a dim glow.

Quote:

"This study opens a door. It demonstrates the strong oxidation power of electrons in electrostatic discharge process generated by dust events," she said. "It suggests that electrostatic discharge in Martian dust events can affect many other redox processes in the Mars atmosphere and Mars surface and subsurface, such as iron and sulphur systems as well."

……

So, it appears possible that the near surface Mars may have quite a lot of Oxidizer, and then we have two sources of fuel, apparently.

Methane emerging from a presumably anaerobic deeper underground, and Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere.

If there is no life on Mars, then we have a excellent chance of having a method to drive a chemosynthetic biosystem.

……

And this is one of my more favored topics.  While pumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere or using some other method to warm the atmosphere is an interesting thing, it is a thing which by itself will take a very long time to build a surface biosphere with.

I instead want to go to the root of biospheres.  Under ice liquid pools.  If you inject solar energy, and also waste heat from human activities, under the ice you get way more bang for the buck, and could simulate Europa, Enceladus, and Earth Sub ice lakes and seas.

And it turns out perhaps that the chemicals to drive a biosystem are already there.  And that does not prevent us from injecting even more chemicals such as Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon Monoxide into the mix.  And I believe that a byproduct of that action would be greenhouse gasses to go into the atmosphere of Mars.

We could have a great Northern Sea, covered in Ice, and a system of huge lakes emanating from the Southern pole.

And under those bodies of water you can drill Boring Company type tunnels for people to live in.

And eventually a biosphere may appear on the land areas.  High Artic at first, then we hope Low artic, and finally Taiga.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga

And for particular areas such as the Valles Marineris, perhaps mirrors in orbit could jump it up to somewhat subtropical, presuming there was enough atmosphere to ward off night time frosts most of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-24 13:40:44)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#9 2018-10-24 17:55:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,049

Re: Life on Mars?

Here is the science Salty Martian Water Could Have Enough Oxygen to Support Life

Salty water buried just beneath the Martian surface could have enough dissolved oxygen to support microbes, and perhaps even simple animal life such as sponges in some places, a new study suggests.

This surprising conclusion could help reshape scientists' understanding of the Red Planet's habitability, both past and present, study team members said.

The evidence has been seen in the rocks and with the water stains in the slopes of craters....

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