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#1 2018-10-14 17:33:31

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,938

Too many political threads

I enjoy debating political issues. But I usually go to political sites to debate them. I think this site has just too many political threads running now. It's crowding out the focus on Mars.

I think you should just consolidate all political discussion on one single thread, so you don't have a bunch of political non-Mars threads dominating the front page.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2018-10-14 18:38:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,049

Re: Too many political threads

Much like going to mars has all these different facets of what it will take the political issues are just as many and get blurred when trying to determine what is what when consolidated much the same as when a topic for mars settlement covers where we are going with nuclear rockets when all we are trying to focus on is a single item... Mars Settlement....Not how we will get there...How we will get there determines what we can do with the settlement and not what a mars settlement is....

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#3 2018-10-14 19:31:33

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,938

Re: Too many political threads

Sorry. This is not my opinion this is fact. If you've  come to this site in recent days  you see a front page dominated by political threads (and mostly US-related) threads. Gotta be a killer for any Mars-orientated site. You can ignore that fact if you want but it's still a fact. No person interested in Mars would expect to find a front page dominated by American domestic politics.


SpaceNut wrote:

Much like going to mars has all these different facets of what it will take the political issues are just as many and get blurred when trying to determine what is what when consolidated much the same as when a topic for mars settlement covers where we are going with nuclear rockets when all we are trying to focus on is a single item... Mars Settlement....Not how we will get there...How we will get there determines what we can do with the settlement and not what a mars settlement is....


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#4 2018-10-14 21:12:19

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,369
Website

Re: Too many political threads

I tend to agree that this is not the place for politics, but it is mostly confined to "Free Chat" where it belongs if anywhere.  It would be a big problem if political debates were spilling over into other threads, but as it is it seems to be staying where it belongs. 

We did try to ban politics on the Forum back before the Great Crash, but it didn't seem to accomplish much other than upset people. 

What I try to do now is just not read or participate in political threads.


-Josh

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#5 2018-10-14 22:08:10

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,108

Re: Too many political threads

Have the minds of adult men and women recently become so fragile that they're unable to ignore topics that are of no interest to them?

One of the best parts of freedom of expression are the raucous, contentious, and often very spirited debates.  You can't learn how to think without the ability to interpret input from and express your ideas to others.  The process mandates communication.  In this case, written communication.  It certainly can be emotional for those who apply more emotion than logic to their thought process.  Whether ideas are driven by emotion, math and logic, or a mixture of both, the objective physical world and the subjective world of humanity has say-so in how well ideas work in practice.

Do we really need "Thought Police" to ensure that everyone is "thinking correctly"?

Is that not exactly how totalitarian regimes begin?

Mars can be as apolitical or as partisan as people want it to be.  I personally find Mars interesting on the basis of what we could possibly learn by living there.  To pretend that the people who go there won't have their own personal opinions and biases is near the pinnacle of absurdity.  Put two people in a room, have them debate a topic of any significance, and you'll walk away with at least three opinions on the matter.  Any sort of blind "group think" ideology in environments that are absolutely lethal humans is certain to produce disastrous results.  Therefore, I tend to believe that any great endeavor will have great debates attached to it, and some politics will inevitably get mixed in.

There are plenty of people who think we shouldn't go to Mars and that we should solve all of our problems here on Earth first, as if such a fantastic scenario shall ever magically leap into existence in our lifetimes.  I do not wish to prevent people of that opinion from voicing their opinions, but I also think those of us who believe in our cause of space exploration and colonization have better arguments on our side about why we should expand our civilization to other worlds.  If we can't move past our own petty differences, perhaps they're correct.  I should hope that is not the case, both for our own sake as fellow humans and our vast inter-disciplinary cause.

My boss at the previous consultancy I worked for had the following to say about this:

"We shall like and respect one another well enough to be able to tell each other to go to hell and have a beer afterwards."

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#6 2018-10-15 05:17:58

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,938

Re: Too many political threads

I don't have a problem with political discussions. It's just the number of separate threads that appear when you go on "Active": Not to be hacked, Free Chat, Not so Free Chat, South of the Border Politics, Trump's Tariff War,  Kavanaugh, Healthcare for all...At times there are more political threads than Mars-related threads.

kbd512 wrote:

Have the minds of adult men and women recently become so fragile that they're unable to ignore topics that are of no interest to them?

One of the best parts of freedom of expression are the raucous, contentious, and often very spirited debates.  You can't learn how to think without the ability to interpret input from and express your ideas to others.  The process mandates communication.  In this case, written communication.  It certainly can be emotional for those who apply more emotion than logic to their thought process.  Whether ideas are driven by emotion, math and logic, or a mixture of both, the objective physical world and the subjective world of humanity has say-so in how well ideas work in practice.

Do we really need "Thought Police" to ensure that everyone is "thinking correctly"?

Is that not exactly how totalitarian regimes begin?

Mars can be as apolitical or as partisan as people want it to be.  I personally find Mars interesting on the basis of what we could possibly learn by living there.  To pretend that the people who go there won't have their own personal opinions and biases is near the pinnacle of absurdity.  Put two people in a room, have them debate a topic of any significance, and you'll walk away with at least three opinions on the matter.  Any sort of blind "group think" ideology in environments that are absolutely lethal humans is certain to produce disastrous results.  Therefore, I tend to believe that any great endeavor will have great debates attached to it, and some politics will inevitably get mixed in.

There are plenty of people who think we shouldn't go to Mars and that we should solve all of our problems here on Earth first, as if such a fantastic scenario shall ever magically leap into existence in our lifetimes.  I do not wish to prevent people of that opinion from voicing their opinions, but I also think those of us who believe in our cause of space exploration and colonization have better arguments on our side about why we should expand our civilization to other worlds.  If we can't move past our own petty differences, perhaps they're correct.  I should hope that is not the case, both for our own sake as fellow humans and our vast inter-disciplinary cause.

My boss at the previous consultancy I worked for had the following to say about this:

"We shall like and respect one another well enough to be able to tell each other to go to hell and have a beer afterwards."


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#7 2018-10-15 20:22:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,049

Re: Too many political threads

The Nasa for the US is any but a political football with lots of quarter backs taking turns with the direction of who, what, where and when Nasa will go or do anything.
Nasa is an agency that is sort of a play toy for the President and its direction is anything but going direct to anything or any where.
Then congress got upset and said that they need to keep there people employed and wanted to resurect piece of the shuttle. So more football quarter backs telling the agency what to do and how much it will get to do it. So while we would want Nasa to do good with the effortys they are handicapped into being not so able or functional in what they are tasked to do. Back when Nasa was great they got there orders and the agencies boss followed through without any further interference.
Those days are gone until we get a direction and have no more extra quarter backs tell nasa what to do.

So back to why the connection to the seperate topics is just to keep this stuff out of the others and to focus on what do we need to do.

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#8 2018-10-16 12:59:36

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,108

Re: Too many political threads

SpaceNut,

There needs to be a rule that NASA's human space flight mission doesn't change until they accomplish it.  If December 31st, 1969 rolled around and we were about to send men to the moon the next, should we have simply called off the entire endeavor because we missed a deadline by a day?  That sort of thinking is profoundly short-sighted.

The moon may be a good test site for new technologies, but Mars is a prize of inestimable value.

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#9 2018-10-16 16:44:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,049

Re: Too many political threads

I do agree that we should have major goals and that continuing to they are complete would be a lofty goal.

The goal to land a man of the moon was completed with apolllo 11 on 20 July 1969 and we did decide to continue to go for apollo12, 14,15,16 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_moon_landings ) ending with apollo 17 on 11 December 1972 not to return again with men.

The next goal up was between the last of apollo and last shuttle which included detaunt, skylab and the ISS which is still continuing.

Nasa sort of is switching goals while still continuing the cooperation and partnerships to progress men still into space. The some what forward thinking is to get self relience of US men back on its own rocket, build a partnership station for lunar orbit and to land again once more on the lunar surface with thoughts to go ground work to plan for mars while being there.

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#10 2018-10-16 17:22:37

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,484
Website

Re: Too many political threads

After Apollo 11, NASA stated the next goal was Mars. They said a human mission to Mars would depart Earth for Mars in 1981. Then the Soviet Union launched Salyut 1, so NASA responded with Skylab. Nixon hated JFK, wanted to destroy everything he did. If he could, he would have destroyed NASA. He cancelled Apollo because it was JFK's legacy. JFK didn't authorize a shuttle, so Nixon did. Shuttle first flight was 1981; we got Shuttle instead of Mars.

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#11 2018-10-23 17:09:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,049

Re: Too many political threads

All of which Nasa has been kicking the can down the road for mars and the moon multiple times with this report and that funding declaration and still we are not on the moon or mars and have settled for probes to keep us interested in going.

NASA can look forward to even more costs and longer delays for its next big rocket

The rocket, which has already suffered from numerous cost overruns and budget delays, is projected to cost billions of dollars more than expected. The vehicle also probably won’t be ready to fly by June 2020, the current target date for the rocket’s first launch.

The report blames many of the issues on Boeing, the main contractor of the SLS. Boeing has been struggling with the development of the SLS core stage — the main body of the rocket that contains the primary engines and most of the propellant. The first core stage, meant to be used on the SLS’s inaugural test flight, was supposed to be delivered in June of 2017. It’s now expected to be ready by December 2019, and chances are it will probably come even later than that.

not politically caused....

just throw them more money.. gee thats not the answer...

Given current estimates, the space agency is expected to spend $8.9 billion through 2021 just so that Boeing can complete the first core stage and work on additional stages for upcoming flights; that’s twice the amount NASA had expected.

We given enough already for rehashed hardware to make it with...

The rocket was originally supposed to have its first launch last year, but its debut has been continually pushed back as its budget expands. NASA has now spent nearly $12 billion on SLS development, which has been ongoing since 2010. And that number is only expected to grow. Since November 2017, NASA has been targeting the first test flight of SLS for 2019, but that has now shifted to 2020. And the inspector general report doubts that new date will hold either

On March 21, President Trump issued a mandate for NASA: get people to Mars by 2033. One week later, NASA responded with its most detailed plan to date for reaching the Red Planet, and it details five phases along the road to Mars.

Phase one is getting a rocket to orbit and beyond....spanning 2018 to 2025 and will include the launch and testing of six SLS rockets. Those rockets will deliver components of the Deep Space Gateway (DSG), a new space station to be built near the Moon to serve astronauts en route to Mars.

Phase II will launch the Deep Space Transport (DST) tube toward the lunar station in 2027, and in 2028 or 2029, astronauts will inhabit the tube for more than 400 days.

Phase III will see 2030, the DST restocked with supplies and the Mars crew via SLS rocket.

Phase IV, of course, will be the trip itself in 2033 to mars. With not even a word about landing....

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