Mission to Venus

Void · 2018-10-18 19:57:11

I think the potentials for Venus are enormous, particularly in concert with our Moon.

I will say why:

1) Lets start here: https://www.i4u.com/2018/03/127430/worl … s-air-fuel
and here: http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/design- … el/170712/
Quote:

The rocket thruster that uses air as fuel

Blah Blah Blah! (Good stuff)

2) And then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_%28structure%29
Quote:

A skyhook is a proposed momentum exchange tether that aims to reduce the cost of placing payloads into space. A heavy orbiting station is connected to a cable which extends down towards the upper atmosphere. Payloads, which are much lighter than the station, are hooked to the end of the cable as it passes, and are then flung into orbit by rotation of the cable around the centre of mass. The station can then be reboosted to its original altitude by electromagnetic propulsion, rocket propulsion, or by deorbiting another object equal in mass to the payload.

3) And then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining
Quote:

Asteroid mining is the exploitation of raw materials from asteroids and other minor planets, including near-Earth objects.

4) And then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail
Quote:

A magnetic sail or magsail is a proposed method of spacecraft propulsion which would use a static magnetic field to deflect charged particles radiated by the Sun as a plasma wind, and thus impart momentum to accelerate the spacecraft.[1][2] A magnetic sail could also thrust directly against planetary and solar magnetospheres.

And of course magnetic fields may help with radiation problems in the Orbitsphere of Venus.

5) And then this: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/elon-mu … dcast.html
Quote:

Elon Musk: I'm about to announce a 'Neuralink' product that connects your brain to computers
Elon Musk says he will soon announce a Neuralink product that can make anyone superhuman by connecting their brains to a computer.
He says Neuralink increases the data rate between the brain and computers and will give humans a better shot at competing with AI.
Musk made the comments before he smoked weed and drank on Joe Rogan's podcast.

……

So lets imagine using #5, to do telepresence on the Moon to build things to launch to Venus. Modules for an Orbitsphere Habitat perhaps.

So then lets spin it in the Orbitsphere of Venus, to create synthetic gravity.

Now for radiation, we could bring materials from the Moon, or get materials from NVO's (Near Venus Objects, asteroids), or we could get Materials from the atmosphere of Venus. CO2, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Perhaps Water.

If you have CO2, you can have Carbon. Carbon would make a great building material in orbit. To get the CO2, lets jump to #1 & #2.
The air breathing electric rocket thruster, and the skyhook.
I propose to split the air breathing electric rocket thruster into two pieces. A) The air intake & B) The electric thruster.
ReQuote from #1:

The thruster can collect, compress, electrically charge and then release air molecules, removing the need for chemical fuel. All that's needed is electricity, which can be harvested from the Sun.

I propose to put A) The air intake as an attachment to the end of the skyhook, to skim into the Venus atmosphere.
I propose that the skyhook be attached to the space habitat spoken of earlier.
I propose that B) be in association with the hub of the skyhook, the habitat.
*A problem to solve is how to get the captured air from the ends of the skyhook to the electric rocket engine. I don't think it will be too hard.

In the previous quote, the phrase "which can be harvested from the sun" is not all the story.
The habitat would be well served to be surrounded by a artificial magnetic field. That will interact with the solar wind. The field could be throttled, for a best propulsion method in concert with protection from GCR.

My mind has some trouble wrapping around more that the notion that the magnetic field will be a big magnetosphere ball, and you could expand it when the solar wind is aiding your motion, and shrink it when the solar wind was opposing the motion of the skyhook/habitat.
But I believe that those with better understanding could improve on that.

#3 Asteroid Mining could bring in additional building materials, and perhaps water.

Alternately in the beginning you could have a totally robotic way to capture Sulfuric Acid from the atmosphere of Venus without endangering humans. Eventually you would indeed inhabit the Atmosphere of Venus as well, when you got really good at coping with it's conditions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-18 20:30:27)

Belter · 2018-10-18 20:24:09

If you're floating in the clouds, you have real gravity. That's the only advantage really to floating in the Venusian atmosphere. Well, easy access to oxygen if you need more I suppose.

I also think sky hooks are silly. They'd have to be fricken enormous and then the "hooking" and "unhooking" part would be dicey as hell. If they ever fell to Earth, it would be cataclysmic and you'd still have to keep boosting the thing which would suck up huge amounts of offsetting energy. I don't even know why they bother to research things things except that I would too if government gave me $millions to do it.

Space elevators are only slightly less fanciful, though you'd have to come up with a material that has essentially infinite tensile strength. And even if you could, something in orbit is going to hit it one day, or a plane and all hell would break loose.

Far less fanciful perhaps (but still insanely expensive) would be a rail gun, perhaps built up the side of a very tall mountain, that could accelerate payloads to extreme speeds and then spit it out 4-6 miles above sea level where the air is a bit thinner.

Keep in mind that, while we could float 50km above the surface in theory at be at 14PSI, the winds are faster than a Cat 5 hurricane. So, that would potentially suck. And it would be hard to stay where you wanted even if the winds were sufficiently static in direction.

And then there's the potential problem of getting into space. It would take about as much energy to get from 50km into orbit on Venus as it would to get from sea level to orbit on Earth, because you have to get out of the atmosphere and accelerate to about 15k-20k mph. And do that without the benefit of a launching site. In reality, once a balloon goes in, it's not likely coming out, and we can't even use scramjets at Venus, it would have to be rocket powered.

Last edited by Belter (2018-10-18 20:42:36)

Void · 2018-10-18 20:36:44

Yes, but;
https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/electr … -of-oxygen
Quote:

In the case of Venus, the electric field is so strong that it accelerated even the heavier electrically charged component of water — oxygen ions — to speeds fast enough to escape the planet’s gravity.

So the atmosphere is so dry, that this electric field levitates Oxygen into space from the Venus atmosphere. Venus has a tail like a comet.
Now if you want Oxygen, try to capture that Oxygen.

But if your skyhook is giving you CO2 and Nitrogen, you of course can have Oxygen in the Orbitsphere by splitting the CO2. You can also fill your habitats in the Orbitsphere with a O2/N2 mix, maybe some Argon also?

And as I said before Carbon has many uses, including structure and perhaps radiation protection if combined with Hydrogen for oils and paraffin waxes.

My expectation is that the Orbitsphere of Venus built up could house quite a few people. After that the Atmosphere if supplied with building materials could probably support Billions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-18 20:46:25)

Belter · 2018-10-18 20:46:15

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

There is a humanoid robot being used for deep sea work.
http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.c … ?ve=1&tl=1
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/04/28/ … cmp=hphz03
I wonder if a version of this could be used on Venus. I think there is a minimal size to a long duration robot on Venus, as it will have to actively cool itself with refrigeration, could it be human sized, or would it have to be an "Iron Giant" with cooling equipment on its back?

This makes far more sense than EVAs. That new space pod idea just doesn't make any sense when we have haptic telepresence capability in basic video games for kids.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-18 20:50:11

The air ionizing I do remember from the years in electronics board manufacturing as that was how you would control electro static discharges. In that you give the air flowing towards the circuit boards a static charge potential so as to not cause a discharge of particles of oposite polarity.

https://www.minicircuits.com/app/AN40-005.pdf

www.bystat.com/pages/info/articles/Articles_ComplianceEngineering_sep06.pdf

Air ionization. The four major type of ionizers are AC, pulsed DC, steady-state DC, and nuclear. ... Ionization or ionisation, is the process by which an atom or a molecule acquires a negative or positive charge by gaining or losing electrons to form ions, often in conjunction with other chemical changes. Air ionization maintains the integrity of components and subassemblies by neutralizing static charge generated during the manufacturing process or during transport to final test and assembly. Ionizing fans to some extent purify the quality of the air. Ionizers contain an electrically charged wire, which sends charged molecules into the air in your home. These molecules, or ions, interact with pollutants and dust particles in the air due to an electric attraction.

The air nozzles used to blow dry a circuit board that was cleaned with alcohol was done with a nuclear air flow nozzle.

http://www.pro-pack.com.sg/products/sta … uster.html

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/radiationioni … ndout.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation

Ionizing radiation is categorized by the nature of the particles or electromagnetic waves that create the ionizing effect. Ionizing radiation takes a few forms: Alpha, beta, and neutron particles, and gamma and X-rays. All types are caused by unstable atoms, which have either an excess of energy or mass (or both). In order to reach a stable state, they must release that extra energy or mass in the form of radiation.

http://holbert.faculty.asu.edu/eee460/I … nRange.pdf

So once the particles of oxygen have a charge state we can use magnetics to steer the molecule into the trap to allow for collecting them for compression. before cooling an liquifing....

Void · 2018-10-18 20:51:02

Actually think steam engine.

Just for a joke I talked about a "TinkerBell" robot.

You fill it with water, to ballast it down to the surface. Motive forces of boiling steam could drive propellers. It is cooled by evaporation of water. As it runs low on water it looses its ballast. The rest of it's interior would be filled with Nitrogen, so it would float back up.

It would also be steam driven as far as appendages as well.

How much ore you could bring up would be dependent on your airship calculations. Obviously you need enough buoyancy.

So indeed yes, you could also build your habitats with ore from the surface of Venus as well.

Done.

Nite Nite.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-18 20:52:49)

kbd512 · 2018-10-18 21:07:12

Venus Advantages...

* Venus is closer to Earth and there are more launch windows for minimum-energy Hohmann transfers
* 91% of Earth's gravity
* radiation protection from SPE's and GCR's nearly as good as Earth sea level way up in the clouds
* lots of solar insolation for electrical power and growing food in aeroponic greenhouses
* lots of wind for wind turbine power if you're moored to the surface
* fluoropolymers are impervious to the acid rain clouds
* lots of atmospheric pressure for more energy efficient propellant gas compression
* composite aircraft with electric motors and batteries can fly as well as they do in Earth's lower atmosphere
* burnt out rocket stages can actually "float" in the upper atmosphere, where they could potentially be retrieved for future use

There's something of a renaissance happening right now in the world of airships as we look for more fuel efficient than ocean going freighter means to deliver 1,000t+ cargos around the world. The skins of these airships are made from fluoropolymers.

Disadvantages:

* for all practical purposes, the surface is completely uninhabitable
* all water must be obtained by processing the sulfuric acid clouds
* being substantially closer to the Sun means very little warning time of impending SPE's for orbital stations and potential loss of communications satellites if the SPE is severe enough

Void · 2018-10-21 17:14:56

Pretty good summary Kdb512. However, I will tweak it a bit.

I have been thinking about robots that can float and access the surface also. I previously spoke of using water as ballast, and then as the robot descended to the surface to use it to both cool critical systems, and to motivate actuating devices and electric generators.

As you have mentioned water more or less has to come from Sulfuric Acid. And it does. At the low base of the clouds, Sulfuric Acid decomposes into water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide. Then it becomes Sulfuric Acid when UV light does some chemistry on the atmospheric gasses. Just an interesting note.

Now, I am speculating on other gasses in the atmosphere. CO2, N2, and Argon. Argon is probably too small a component to continue with. However CO2 as dry ice, and also Liquid Nitrogen might be very good instead of water. Many tricks may be possible.

I am imagining a Tetrahedron as high in the sky as flotation will allow. Maybe even using Hydrogen to achieve that height. One facet faces the sky, and apex points down with the other three faces. I will call the facet facing the sky to be called the "Sky Face". It will be both a solar collector and radiator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron

The other three faces to be empty to allow winds to pass through. However the joins between the three empty faces will be tubes. Upon the tubes may be mounted windmills. Windmills could make sense, if the structure were large enough that the winds are not the same speeds at the same time in the different locations. However windmills are a hoped for option to add power generation capabilities. Another possibility could be a "Sea Anchor" dangling down some distance on a cable. However the sea anchor would complicate things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_anchor

So, this device or some other alternate machine would extract CO2 from the atmosphere and make Dry ice marbles. It would also hopefully manufacture Liquid Nitrogen.

One method to get the created Dry Ice marbles down to the bottom apex would be to just roll them down the tubes of the downward apex.
Liquid Nitrogen would have to be handled a different way, I will not divert to choose one, as there should be many options.

So before attempting to use these materials on the surface of Venus, I speculate on how to collect Sulfuric Acid or Water from the cloud deck. I am not sure Sulfuric Acid will play nice with dry ice. I bet there is someone who can and should let me know if this is so. Anyway it is a hope.

The method would be to drop the dry ice marbles into an open bin being supported by a lighter than air ship, made to endure Sulfuric Acid and the temperatures in the cloud deck. The method would then be for it to detach from the Tetrahedron, and drop into the cloud deck appropriate to the mixture of Sulfuric Acid mist/vapors and Water mist/vapor that is desired. The hope is that as the Dry ice sublimates or even melts, but then evaporates, condensation of the cloud deck will fill the basin. Then the trick is to lift the device up to where you have a processing plant to further process the mixture. I won't go into secondary refining, for as I am at least partially ignorant of the details of that.

I am now going to suggest using Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen to access the surface of Venus with machines.

There could be a variety of shapes of the machines, and varieties of propulsion.

For now I will suggest a plane type device with a Fuselage (There could be children reading this).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage

There will be variations on what would be inside the Fuselage.
One thing that would be inside would be Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen (In separated compartments of course).
I really don't know well enough how to glide with an aircraft to the surface, what the profile of the "Plane" would be. However the desire is to be able to glide to a safe landing on the surface, and that the Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen would be used to keep the Machine as cool as it needs to be. What it might land on could be skids, or perhaps wheels, but not rubber , or even robotic legs. See Boston Dynamics for such.

https://www.bostondynamics.com/

If robotic legs then perhaps activated by evaporation of Liquid Nitrogen.

If the glide in needs lift assistance then I suppose some lighter than air method has to be added. Or helicopter blades actuated with Liquid Nitrogen (Or Dry Ice/Liquid CO2 (At those pressures).

I prefer to imagine robotic actuated landing legs with hands. Additional arms with hands as is useful.

A way to return to the "Sky" is needed that would be buoyancy. I am hopping that it is reasonable to be able to fill the fuselage or a lifting bag/vessel with evaporated Nitrogen.
Else; Liquid Hydrogen, but explosions are then a possibility.
Else; Then you will simply need internal combustion engines to lift it up to a high enough altitude with helicopter blades where the Nitrogen can fill the fuselage.

I added the Else clauses, just because I was afraid the Nitrogen would not be a gas at those pressures. But I really think it would, once it was as hot as the exterior.

That's about all, except if you really wanted to play you could have a giant humanoid robot instead. I don't think it is as practical.

……

Other thoughts:

-These devices could be operated by telepresence.
-Some of the electronics on board can be high temperature (They are under development now).
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … XPLORATION
*So cold substances may not be as critical for electronics, as for ballasting and actuating.
-Some of the electronics would not have to be on board, but could be in the sky, the actual A.I. parts, where it is relatively cool.
-This device might operate up to above the cloud deck, but it might be easier to have it rise up to only below the cloud deck to reduce corrosive effects on the machine. In that case coolants would have to be delivered to the machine where it is hot but not intolerably hot (For Machines). Any ore then brought up would have to be transferred to a vehicle built to tolerate the extreme corrosive nature of the Sulfuric Acid clouds, to deliver the payload to where the processing machines are.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-21 18:01:10)

SpaceNut · 2018-10-21 19:23:21

Venus pressure at the surface is crushing, it is about 90 times that of Earth's (14.7 PSI = 1 atm) or 90 atm.
90 x 14.7 = 1323 pounds per inch of surface area.

It has a mass of 4.8 × 10 20 kg, about 93 times the mass of the Earth's total atmosphere. The altitude of 50 km is needed to capture 90% of the atmosphere of Venus. The clouds of Venus may extend from about 50 to 70 km and may be divided into three distinct layers.

Making liquid Nitrogen or dry ice requires a means to disapate heat in order to make them and that heat will be going into the atmosphere via radiators which makes venus even hotter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Venus

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/vexag/chapman_ … unders.pdf

NASA reveals plans for joint Venus mission with Russia to send a probe and lander to 'Earth's evil twin'

Venera-D would send an orbiter to study Venus from for at least three years
Lander that will operate for a few hours on the planet's surface
Could set up ground stations to send back data
Liftoff in 2025 or 2026 is possible under an 'aggressive' time line

Void · 2018-10-21 21:07:37

Quote:

Making liquid Nitrogen or dry ice requires a means to disapate heat in order to make them and that heat will be going into the atmosphere via radiators which makes venus even hotter.

Quote:

which makes venus even hotter

Don't be silly.

Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are trying to say? Please correct my perception of what you have said if I have not understood your thinking. Yes it is very hot on the surface of Venus.

I explicitly said the Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen would be made at a high altitude. Where it would be cold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Quote:

The altitude of the troposphere most similar to Earth is near the tropopause—the boundary between troposphere and mesosphere. It is located slightly above 50 km.[17] According to measurements by the Magellan and Venus Express probes, the altitude from 52.5 to 54 km has a temperature between 293 K (20 °C) and 310 K (37 °C), and the altitude at 49.5 km above the surface is where the pressure becomes the same as Earth at sea level.[17][22] As manned ships sent to Venus would be able to compensate for differences in temperature to a certain extent, anywhere from about 50 to 54 km or so above the surface would be the easiest altitude in which to base an exploration or colony, where the temperature would be in the crucial "liquid water" range of 273 K (0 °C) to 323 K (50 °C) and the air pressure the same as habitable regions of Earth.[9][23] As CO2 is heavier than air, the colony's air (nitrogen and oxygen) could keep the structure floating at that altitude like a dirigible.

I interpret this as saying that at an altitude of 49.5 km above the surface, pressure same as Earth sea level. And that should be cooler than (20 °C). But I would like the device to float even higher. Of course it would have to be light weight, and perhaps Hydrogen might be resorted to as the lifting gas if necessary.

How high can it fly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-alti … de_airship
Quote:

High-altitude platform station or High-Altitude Pseudo-Satellite (short: HAPS) is – according to Article 1.66A of the International Telecommunication Union´s (ITU) ITU Radio Regulations (RR)[2] – defined as "a station on an object at an altitude of 20 to 50 km and at a specified, nominal, fixed point relative to the Earth".

And the atmosphere of Venus should be deeper due to a lesser gravitational field 91% of Earth gravity I think. So the pressure drop would be less for Venus going up 20 to 50 km, which is a factor which would make things a bit more favorable. At higher altitudes, I would think the temperatures would be lower.

So I say the task is hard but not impossible to try for.

Even at 20 °C using compression it should be possible to refine dry ice and Liquid Nitrogen. We do it on Earth I presume.

Looking again though I see that getting above the clouds is going to be hard. I guess it would have to either subsist on lowered illumination within the upper clouds, or reach a rather high altitude, or be powered by wind.

On the one hand if you are very high in altitude it requires very special lifting capabilities and must be a rather light structure. In that case it would more radiate heat to the sky.

On the other hand if it is low it will be within the upper cloud deck, with less illumination, and cope with the acid, special materials required, but would be air cooled, maybe even sulfuric acid mist cooled, but the methods for lifting would be much easier.

And if wind, then sea anchor probably required and perhaps also requiring tolerance for acid. But the acid mist might serve to cool. But then you need special materials.

I don't like it but perhaps even nuclear energy.

But what energy source are the colonies supposed to use?

I see that in the following article, at least the art suggests the NASA craft will fly above the clouds where I think it will be rather cool/cold.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/17/nasa-pla … s-8048648/
Quote:

The space agency came up with the idea of floating astronauts above the planet’s toxic clouds in a plan entitled the High Altitude Venus Operational Concept (Havoc).

Perhaps the structure I proposed could use modifications though.

Remember that something has to be half baked before it can be fully baked.

You really should not work so hard to discourage ideas.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-22 12:17:57)

Belter · 2018-10-22 06:57:11

There's no way you can make Venus any hotter. You could start dropping nuclear bombs by the thousands and t would barely make a tick of a difference in the temperature.

Void · 2018-10-22 07:50:17

Belter said:
Quote:

There's no way you can make Venus any hotter. You could start dropping nuclear bombs by the thousands and t would barely make a tick of a difference in the temperature.

I hold that to be substantially correct. We can also interpret "You" as meaning the maximum capability of the human cultures. No, they cannot do much about the temperature of Venus. The surface of Venus radiates in Near Infrared (Could grow some microbes with that).
Of course the cloud deck would tend to inhibit that radiation from going out into space. However if you raise the temperature of the lower cloud deck as a result of raising the temperature of the surface, causing the surface to radiate in a shorter wavelength, then you could expect some convection of the cloud deck, which would pass heat to the top of the cloud deck to radiate out into space.

……

But I said a floating Tetrahedron. Let's instead imagine a floating Umbrella. Except the underside of the Umbrella may have a flat surface. The convex upper surface and the flat lower surface might comprise a flotation bag, by which it might float in the atmosphere of Venus. I have already indicated that I would prefer it to float above the upper cloud deck, which may be hard. However instead of supporting gardens and houses and humans and their needs, it would only support light weight solar cells on the upper convex surface, and perhaps radiators on all surfaces. The umbrella handle would perhaps be spiral inside to allow dry ice marbles to roll down to the bottom end without high impact, and perhaps to allow a path for liquid Nitrogen as well. The "Handle" would be a sort of pendulum. Additional weigh could be connected to the end for stability. Perhaps a sea anchor as well. My hope is that the entire structure would be much lighter than a floating city, and that the "Umbrella" could float higher. If necessary Hydrogen could be used for floatation to achieve greater heights. So, I think it is possible that we could have a place to manufacture dry ice and liquid Nitrogen at a location above the clouds.

Since I have said "Umbrella", yes that's right, an umbrella intercepts the sunlight before it gets into and below the clouds, and if you were at a pressure of say 500 mb, I think that most waste heat would simply radiate to space, or bounce off of the cloud deck into space.
……

Lastly, it would not be particularly important if Venus did get hotter. The atmosphere would simply swell up to higher altitudes, and carry any floating devices upward with it. So, the problem "Venus would get hotter" is not a problem for what I want to consider. accomplishing. The "Umbrella may shade Venus in fact.

…..

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-22 07:55:38)

Belter · 2018-10-22 08:29:10

So what would be the use of people floating in cloud cities and how would that be different from floating in Earth orbit with 1G stations?

Void · 2018-10-22 11:32:28

Quote from Belter:

So what would be the use of people floating in cloud cities and how would that be different from floating in Earth orbit with 1G stations?

By no means do I consider Venus a 1st priority.

I see the Earth/Moon system as 1st priority because various entities are interested in the Moon. Only SpaceX, and the Porky the Pig programs profess to be interested in Mars. Even SpaceX and the Porky the Pig space programs are also interested in the Moon.

And so, yes I do have a very big interest in Earth orbit 1 G (And other G), Oribitsphere facilities.

The Moon and Earth/Moon Orbitsphere facilities can give us important data on what ~1/6 g (And other Synthetic G) does to humans and test animals. That will be important information for both Mars and Venus.

Of the two, Mars surface comes first. If it turns out that there are reasons for humans to have synthetic gravity in the Martian Orbitsphere, then so it must be done.

For Venus, I would at some point think to put humans into the Venus Orbitsphere. Their Metals and Silicates would at first have to come from our Moon and/or Near Terrestrial Asteroids. I would presume that it would not be done unless solutions for Radiation, necessary shielding were available both Matter, and Magnetics.

Such a minimal facility might house a research staff, who could also double as a rescue team, if a Mars bound craft had to abort to Venus for some reason. The researchers might direct activities for robotic craft within the atmosphere of Venus, to test methods of putting humans there, and to discover what insitu methods could be conducted there, what materials would be appropriate there.

Next if desired, humans would then inhabit cloud cities.

Next stage would be to discover how to do what I proposed. Make sufficient quantities of Ballast which would also provide cooling and motivating power to robotic craft which would access the surface materials. But this could be quite far off.

I believe about 1/2 of the surface of Venus experiences supercritical CO2 conditions, 1/2 does not. This suggests that very special mineral deposits may exist in places on the surface of Venus. This could be valuable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercrit … on_dioxide

For instance Lead Sulfide, and Bismuth Sulfide at high elevations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_snow
But then you would also want other Metals and Silicates I presume, that you could use in the cloud cities and elsewhere.

……

The next expansion might very well be to the Jupiter Realms, and to Mercury.
Jupiter realms in my opinion includes Jupiter and it's Moons, the Trojan Asteroids, the Apollo Asteroids and the main Asteroid Belt (Belter )

Mercury will be interesting as it appears to have water ice deposits at the poles, and a lot of graphite in its regolith. That sort of allows some organic chemistry, although Nitrogen will likely have to be an import. Mercury should also be very big for solar power, as Venus might be as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-22 12:19:17)

Void · 2018-10-22 12:20:35

One interesting Segway is to use BFR/BFS on Venus, and have a platform for both to launch together from.

In post #207 Kbd512 suggested the following:
Quote:

* burnt out rocket stages can actually "float" in the upper atmosphere, where they could potentially be retrieved for future use

If so, then BFR could be "Floated" to the launch platform, and the BFS "Floated" on top of that. I would not speculate on how you handle exposure to acid, but lets ignore that for now.

If you don't want to expose to the clouds, then they would each have to be landed on the Landing/Launch platform, that might be better. They would sill be partially buoyant at an altitude above the clouds, so the problems of landing perhaps reduced (Except for wind).

The landing platform might serve as an additional stage under the BFR/BFS.

The propulsion method could be rockets, but also possible might be helicopter propulsion or perhaps jet engine propulsion, which would have to burn Hydrogen and atmosphere I presume. That might be hard to accomplish.

As the launch platform would not be aerodynamic in shape, the use would be to get the assembly temporarily up higher in the atmospheric column in order to reduce atmospheric drag for launch. You would not be seeking to attain a high speed. It might be worth it.

And then the gravity of Venus being ~91% of Earth you would also have that advantage. Once the BFR/BFS launched, the platform could be allowed to sink to a level where it was sufficiently buoyant.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-22 12:30:33)

SpaceNut · 2018-10-22 17:15:35

Any heating of the atmospher in time will cause a rise in the atmospheric temperature where the heat is entering the atmospher at altitude. That temperature rise will moderate for a while until the amount of input over takes the temperature of the zones normal temperature.

That goes for the use of fuels burning to make anything hover in the air to even deploying solar panels and batteries would as well. As to charge batteries makes heat and the black panels will obsorb heat as well in what would be normally a cooler area at altitude. Of course anything using power will produce heat as well such as a compressor motor, the act of compression and the cooling will cause the heat exchanging to radiate heat from the process into the air. The act of using a sabatier reactor which is exothermic as well would be sending heat into the air....The climate inside where man would live will be air conditioned which means more heat will be radiated to the air as well.

Sure temperatures deep in the atmospher will not change as you approach the surface only in the upper area of the atmosphere where man would reside.

Void · 2018-10-22 18:01:40

OK, that sounds true.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-22 19:26:41

Balloon Tech
https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/balloons/venus.htm

Cryocooler also important for other applications...such as zero boiloff for Lox/LH2
https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/coolers/summary.htm

Gas lifting table
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 016033.pdf

Belter · 2018-10-22 20:19:37

I think balloon missions (unmanned) will be great. I think having a rocket light enough, yet powerful enough to reach escape velocity is not only going to be tough, but would defeat the ability to send a lot of science equipment or any kind of O2 converters and such. It would be interesting to seed the clouds with O2 creating bacteria and see if we could convert all that CO2 to O2 and carbon that falls to the surface.

SpaceNut · 2018-10-22 20:32:43

The Moxie unit is small and does not have that much mass or power use for converting Co2 even on mars to O2 and would be even easier on venus as the concentration is a lot higher as the pressure is higher.

Look back a page for the lifting mass for the blimp....

Belter · 2018-10-22 22:42:42

I'm just not sure how they're going to get out of the atmosphere and into orbit, even from 50km. They'll have to hit about 10,000 mph with the fuel on board.

elderflower · 2018-10-23 04:36:10

As soon as you fuel your rockets they will cease to float in the Venusian atmosphere.

Void · 2018-10-23 07:47:05

Therefore the need for a bouyant platform.

Last edited by Void (2018-10-23 09:26:07)

Void · 2018-10-23 09:29:45

So, Elon Musk would like to build a Mecha, at least in his dreams.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde … 97580b5b42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha
Quote:

The term mecha (メカ meka) may refer to both scientific ideas and science fiction genres that center on giant robots or machines controlled by people. Mechas are typically depicted as humanoid mobile robots.
These machines vary greatly in size and shape, but are distinguished from vehicles by their humanoid or biomorphic appearance and size—bigger than a human. Different subgenres exist, with varying connotations of realism. The concept of Super Robot and Real Robot are two such examples found in Japanese anime. The term may also refer to real world piloted humanoid or non-humanoid robotic platforms, either currently in existence or still on the drawing board (i.e. at the planning or design stage). Alternatively, in the original Japanese context of the word, "mecha" may refer to mobile machinery/vehicles (including aircraft) in general, manned or otherwise.

I suppose it might be possible to put a human in a sphere to withstand pressure, and put that inside of a Mecha, and "Dive" down to the Venus surface. However, I would think it would needlessly expose a human to danger. I prefer telepresence. The human up in the higher atmosphere, along with a Neuralink AI mind extension.
https://www.neuralink.com/

A table in this link suggests that 30(km)/222(°C)/9.851(atm) (Bar I think) would be the conditions within the lower part of the Sulfuric Acid Haze. I would like to have a staging point for the Mecha below that. So;
Perhaps if the staging point was comfortably below 10 bar, you could avoid Sulfuric Acid, as the temperatures break it down into Water Vapor and Sulfur Dioxide.

But those conditions would make servicing the Mecha very hard. So, I propose a Mecha elevator to get the Mecha through the Sulfuric Acid clouds and up to the locations where humans could service it. The elevator would also be a variable buoyancy device.

The Mecha will not have to be as capable of buoyancy this way, and the elevator canister would fetch it into itself at some location of >10 bar pressure. Then it would expend it's ballast, which most likely would be dry ice, and float up through the sulfuric acid clouds. The canister would be constructed with surface materials to tolerate sulfuric acid, and so would protect the Mecha from acid damage to some extent.

This way the Mecha could be made heavier as it only has to float from a range of ~11(atm(Bar?)) to ~>92.10(atm(Bar?)).

To deploy it to the surface again, it would be loaded with consumables such as dry ice and liquid Nitrogen. Then the Elevator Canister would also be loaded with dry ice ballast, and the assembly would be released to fall to just below the Sulfuric Acid Haze. The Elevator Canister would release the Mecha, and the Mecha would descend to the surface. I favor a glider method for that.

The Mecha would do it's work, and then run out of ballast, and float back up, possibly with minerals for processing. The Elevator Canister would again encompass it and lift it up through the clouds.

Easy to say. It will need more work though, it is half baked after all. It needs to be fully baked.

Fun

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-23 10:13:12)

Void · 2018-10-23 10:02:49

This is a case where size may matter.

A sperm whale might be a guide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale
Quote:

Mature males average 16 metres (52 ft) in length but some may reach 20.5 metres (67 ft), with the head representing up to one-third of the animal's length. Plunging to 2,250 metres (7,382 ft), it is the second deepest diving mammal, following only the Cuvier's beaked whale.

Large size helps protect it from the cold, as the volume to surface area is favorable to that. It also uses blubber as insulation from the cold I believe.

So we would want to consider a similar strategy I would think, for diving down to the surface of Venus.

It looks to me like Ceramic Mineral Wool might make a good substitute for Blubber in this case.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/insu … d_922.html
Quote:

Mineral Wool, Ceramic fiber 1200 degC as the high temperature limit.

The large size and the insulation should prolong the time the Mecha can stay on the surface.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-23 10:10:40)

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