Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

louis · 2018-09-17 04:27:35

You're right of course. But there isn't a really strict delineation between what is a robot, automated machinery or a computer. Here's the Oxford dictionary definition:

"A machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer."

That's means virtually all modern industry is "robotic" as it fits that definition - computers are involved in nearly manufacturing processes now. The other definition given is "a machine resembling a human being and able to replicate certain human movements and functions automatically" - which is more how we think of a robot in popular terms perhaps. There probably won't be many of those, apart from disembodied robotic arms perhaps.

SpaceNut wrote:

Some of what you are calling robotics are machines some automated and some manual in how they work.

Belter · 2018-09-17 21:37:50

louis wrote:

Nonsense. There's no shortage of researchers and scientists prepared to endure the isolation of undertaking projects in Antarctica. Mars will be a lot more interesting than that.
Anyone who visits Mars for a couple of years will have stories that trump anyone else's at the dining table. People will want to go there for the prestige and status that affords them. Also,the money will probably be v. good, just building up in your bank account back on Earth.
Later, Mars will have many facilities that will make it an attractive place to live.
Eventually terraformation will mean that people can walk out in the open on the surface with breathing apparatus.
Finally, with full terrformation Mars will be as fascinating as Earth.

Belter wrote:
Only a handful of people can want to go to Mars and also be considered be sane. It will be about as much fun as being locked in a basement. Once the thrill of being among the first is gone, few people are going to want to go. And even fewer will be competent to go. Most people would spend most of the trip crying in their quarters wondering what they were thinking.

You watch too much science fiction. Maybe in 500 years.

Belter · 2018-09-17 21:46:11

Machines tend to be single purpose devices whereas robots are flexible, multi purpose devices, or at least can be repurposed simply by reprogramming, whereas a machine pretty much is what it is. A machine may require a computer to do its job, but unless it can be reprogrammed to do different jobs as needed, it's just a machine. Plus a robot has some automated responses that come from the environment. A computerized feed back system. Machines typically do not.

The machines that colonize space will be fully robotic, nearly fully automatic, will be able to switch jobs as needed, possibly even build copies of themselves using existing material.

louis · 2018-09-18 03:03:34

I won't watch any! lol If you mean full terraformation in 500 years, well yes that's probably a reasonable timeline. But Mars will be a very human-friendly place to live way before then. We can create Earth-like environments in glassed-over, pressurised natural or artificial gorges way before then, along with large dome spaces.

Belter wrote:

You watch too much science fiction. Maybe in 500 years.

louis · 2018-09-18 03:07:18

That's your definition, not the dictionary definition, and indeed not the way it's used in everyday speech. The term robot is applied to non-flexible industrial robots, robot vehicles and domestic robots (automated machines for vacuum-cleaning surfaces) designed for single purposes. Sometimes the word robot is avoided in order not to frighten people e.g. "the pilot has put the plane into automatic pilot" sounds less alarming to the nervous passenger than "a robot pilot is now flying the plane".

Belter wrote:

Machines tend to be single purpose devices whereas robots are flexible, multi purpose devices, or at least can be repurposed simply by reprogramming, whereas a machine pretty much is what it is. A machine may require a computer to do its job, but unless it can be reprogrammed to do different jobs as needed, it's just a machine. Plus a robot has some automated responses that come from the environment. A computerized feed back system. Machines typically do not.
The machines that colonize space will be fully robotic, nearly fully automatic, will be able to switch jobs as needed, possibly even build copies of themselves using existing material.

Belter · 2018-09-18 09:27:23

louis wrote:

That's your definition, not the dictionary definition, and indeed not the way it's used in everyday speech. The term robot is applied to non-flexible industrial robots, robot vehicles and domestic robots (automated machines for vacuum-cleaning surfaces) designed for single purposes. Sometimes the word robot is avoided in order not to frighten people e.g. "the pilot has put the plane into automatic pilot" sounds less alarming to the nervous passenger than "a robot pilot is now flying the plane".

Sure, things are not clearly defined, though I would argue that a robot must have all of the following:

1. Some form of computerized intelligence
2. The ability to be reprogrammed for different tasks
3. Some sort of feedback mechanism.
4. The ability to operate on its own for indefinite periods of time with little or no human assistance.

That is why a plane or its autopilot is not a robot. It is a single task product.

Belter · 2018-09-18 09:36:10

louis wrote:

I won't watch any! lol If you mean full terraformation in 500 years, well yes that's probably a reasonable timeline. But Mars will be a very human-friendly place to live way before then. We can create Earth-like environments in glassed-over, pressurised natural or artificial gorges way before then, along with large dome spaces.

Reasonable transformation may indeed be possible if we hit the tasks I outlined before. Self-replicating robots that can replicate themselves exponentially take eventually make an impossible task possible. Robotic mining. Robotic gardening. Biological terraforming. The ability to capture comets and redirect them to crash into the planet. The ability to create massive amounts of atmosphere from trapped oxygen. The ability to overcome the lack of radiation protection. The ability to find and release enough nitrogen or other breathable gas to a density that provides a greenhouse effect. Most Mars terraforming goals simply forget about the lack of a protective magnetosphere and the inability to heat the planet, even if you can find an atmosphere somewhere.

SpaceNut · 2018-09-18 19:33:18

There is a blurring of the line when talking about electronically reprogramable items but if they are fixed to the floor unmoving its a machine with robotic abilities but it is limited.

The airplane is a machine as well since it requires the people to make the manual change to condition but a fully automated unattended machine is not really a robot either as its ability is limited to just flying.

A telerobotically controlled bull dozer is a machine as that is its only function.

Even the Mars Rovers are machines that have some ability that cross into robotics but there are not robots....

louis · 2018-09-19 03:40:17

A thermostat control has 1,3 and 4 and could be used for 2 (opening a window say as well as switching on your heating). No one calls a thermostat a robot.

Belter wrote:

louis wrote:
That's your definition, not the dictionary definition, and indeed not the way it's used in everyday speech. The term robot is applied to non-flexible industrial robots, robot vehicles and domestic robots (automated machines for vacuum-cleaning surfaces) designed for single purposes. Sometimes the word robot is avoided in order not to frighten people e.g. "the pilot has put the plane into automatic pilot" sounds less alarming to the nervous passenger than "a robot pilot is now flying the plane".
Sure, things are not clearly defined, though I would argue that a robot must have all of the following:
1. Some form of computerized intelligence
2. The ability to be reprogrammed for different tasks
3. Some sort of feedback mechanism.
4. The ability to operate on its own for indefinite periods of time with little or no human assistance.
That is why a plane or its autopilot is not a robot. It is a single task product.

louis · 2018-09-19 03:44:38

I'd say the way people use robot is "an automated machine with computer control systems and minimal human supervision that does something until recently thought of as a largely or soley human activity, eg driving, assembling cars, moving objects around a warehouse, performing surgery or bipedal walking."

louis · 2018-09-19 03:52:01

I don't think you'll find many people here who forget about the lack of a protective magnetosphere! As for heating the planet, we already have the technology to do that now: we could seed the poles with dark powder, we could explode thermonuclear weapons, but I doubt we will use either of those methods. I think eventually a combination of massive solar reflectors in space and factories producing the most effective greenhouse gases will do the trick. But that might be several decades away.

Belter wrote:

louis wrote:
I won't watch any! lol If you mean full terraformation in 500 years, well yes that's probably a reasonable timeline. But Mars will be a very human-friendly place to live way before then. We can create Earth-like environments in glassed-over, pressurised natural or artificial gorges way before then, along with large dome spaces.
Reasonable transformation may indeed be possible if we hit the tasks I outlined before. Self-replicating robots that can replicate themselves exponentially take eventually make an impossible task possible. Robotic mining. Robotic gardening. Biological terraforming. The ability to capture comets and redirect them to crash into the planet. The ability to create massive amounts of atmosphere from trapped oxygen. The ability to overcome the lack of radiation protection. The ability to find and release enough nitrogen or other breathable gas to a density that provides a greenhouse effect. Most Mars terraforming goals simply forget about the lack of a protective magnetosphere and the inability to heat the planet, even if you can find an atmosphere somewhere.

Belter · 2018-09-19 14:59:33

louis wrote:

I'd say the way people use robot is "an automated machine with computer control systems and minimal human supervision that does something until recently thought of as a largely or soley human activity, eg driving, assembling cars, moving objects around a warehouse, performing surgery or bipedal walking."

That pretty much requires all the things I mentioned, though it's not a bad simplification.

SpaceNut · 2018-09-19 19:56:01

So if we can afford the price of the ticket, what is there that will stop the average joe from going?
Remember those that have gone into space as tourist have done just that and sure did work while there.
Are there any health benefits to those in chronic back pain?

louis · 2018-09-20 07:37:49

I suppose the problem re back pain is the tremendous G forces you have to endure to get to zero of low G. Wouldn't the launch/landing be incredibly painful? Maybe when we have space elevators that becomes more of an attractive proposition...

SpaceNut wrote:

So if we can afford the price of the ticket, what is there that will stop the average joe from going?
Remember those that have gone into space as tourist have done just that and sure did work while there.
Are there any health benefits to those in chronic back pain?

elderflower · 2018-09-21 03:45:26

A much simpler way of getting virtually weightless, whether you have back pain or not, involves a swimming pool.

Terraformer · 2018-09-21 14:30:03

Hmmm. Would back pain be a problem, if you have a decent acceleration couch?

louis · 2018-09-21 18:17:10

I don't think so. Compression is the issue, and that's exactly what happens in the GxX zone doesn't it? Every bit of your body is being compressed into a smaller volume.

Terraformer wrote:

Hmmm. Would back pain be a problem, if you have a decent acceleration couch?

SpaceNut · 2018-09-21 19:25:27

If the collapse/ compression is a function of reduced spinal pad cushion it may heal a bit with the pool therapy but most feel good while in the pool and are nauseated once out and are in more pain then if they did not do it at all.

So reduced gravity equals less compression and allows for the back to heal over a longer period of time versus that of a pool...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-12 11:08:04

Why the truth about caste is messy and inconvenient
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind … 114638.cms

Japan’s Outsider Caste
https://thediplomat.com/2022/08/japans-outsider-caste/

Hibakusha choir gives its last performance at peace ceremony
https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14691830

Keynote session at WTM London probes space tourism
https://eturbonews.com/keynote-session- … e-tourism/

From deep sea to outer space, tourism is now reaching the ends of the Earth
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-i … 5975b721ee

Hundreds of Thousands of American Homes Will Be Swallowed by the Sea, Scientists Say
https://futurism.com/the-byte/thousands … llowed-sea
'This is not good.'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-12 11:12:55)

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#76 2018-09-17 04:27:35

Re: Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

#77 2018-09-17 21:37:50

Re: Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

#78 2018-09-17 21:46:11

Re: Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

#79 2018-09-18 03:03:34

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#80 2018-09-18 03:07:18

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#81 2018-09-18 09:27:23

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#82 2018-09-18 09:36:10

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#83 2018-09-18 19:33:18

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#84 2018-09-19 03:40:17

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#85 2018-09-19 03:44:38

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#86 2018-09-19 03:52:01

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#87 2018-09-19 14:59:33

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#88 2018-09-19 19:56:01

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#89 2018-09-20 07:37:49

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#90 2018-09-21 03:45:26

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#91 2018-09-21 14:30:03

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#92 2018-09-21 18:17:10

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#93 2018-09-21 19:25:27

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