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#1 2018-08-17 22:33:01

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,345

Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

One possibility would be to give it to micro-organisms to breath, and to feed the micro-organisms CO and/or H2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate

Some articles indicate that the Martian soil may be 1% Calcium Perchlorate.  We have reason to suspect that there could be aquifers which are cold and briny with perchlorates in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_perchlorate

……

Now, life on Earth that breaths perchlorates.
https://www.livescience.com/28444-ancie … -fuel.html
Now, life on Earth (and perhaps Mars) that eats (might eat) Carbon Monoxide.
https://www.astrobio.net/extreme-life/c … tmosphere/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … -monoxide/
Now, life on Earth that eats Hydrogen. (I don't need to work hard on this one, there apparently are quite a few microbes that eat H2).
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 191102.htm
That reference mentions engineered microbes.

……

So, my intention is to explore the natural resources of Mars that would give instead of take, or would at least provide gain to the effort it takes.

Several Oxygen methods are now then available.  Perchlorates for Microbes, a tiny amount of Oxygen dissolved in the Martian atmosphere, Oxygen which would be extracted from Water and/or CO2.  All of these will require efforts to provide the Oxygen to Microbes and Humans, the hope would be to receive an economic/material gain for the efforts.

So, we would want our farmed microbes to breath and humans to breath.

We also need food for both.

My hope is that the Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen could provide an abiotic base for such a food chain.  But of course the technologies would need to be invented for that.  Extracting them from the Martian atmosphere will have to be quite a clever trick, and I really don't have more than notions for it.

But we can use electrolysis, and perhaps photolysis on both water and Carbon Dioxide.  Those are much more sure.  So a method may exist to provide a bio-cycle which does not have to involve plants.  Now don't get me wrong, it does not preclude plants.  In fact plants might be another way to get quality Oxygen for humans.

Another food source for the microbes could be organic waste. From humans primarily I presume.  But then that is not entirely chemosynthesis, but who cares.

……

So we can start there.  Our human occupants of a space location such as Mars will require quality Oxygen.  While it is not out of the question to process perchlorate to get quality Oxygen for humans, I would first seek Plants, electrolysis, and photolysis.

But we could have our farmed microbes breath perchlorate, and feed them CO, H2, and human biological waste.

……

What would be desired from the farmed microbes would be biomass/foods.
What else we might hope to get from them would be regular salts like Calcium Chloride.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride
So then it might be possible to get human rated foods from this process.

……

But we might have an intermediate process between the chemosynthetic organisms, and humans.
1) Shellfish might provide food and shells (Where the Chlorine ends up will be an issue, but it is more reactive than Oxygen I believe so there perhaps ways that the shellfish can bond it to other chemicals in the water).
2) Fish and even animals perhaps.  Food/animal bones.
3) Mushrooms.  Food.

All three will require Oxygen of course, not perchlorate.  The quality of the Oxygen needed would be debatable.  I guess it would depend on the organism.  Perhaps in some cases such as Mushrooms a lower quality of Oxygen mix would be allowed.

…..

Engineered organisms would have a place in this.

Also it would probably be preferable to get your perchlorates from well water, rather than to extract them from the surface.

……

Green houses of many types?  Glass? Sure. Artificial lighting? Sure.  But if Chemosynthesis of the types I have suggested are possible from Martian Insitu materials, then the scale of greenhouses, and so their costs might be significantly reduced.

……

Life on Mars already?  Well that is an issue that higher powers then me will address.  I have only suggested a way to graft humans into the natural Martian environment.  That then is a tool.  How you use the tool or if you use the tool is another matter.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-08-17 23:24:29)


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#2 2018-08-17 23:16:47

IanM
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From: Chicago
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Acetic (EDIT:Propionic) Acid would be:

SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)
C6H12O6(s) -> 2CO2(g) + 2C2H5OH(l) (Fermentation, courtesy probably of yeast)
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 4CO2(g) + 4C2H5OH(l) + S(s) (Overall reaction)

I did some calculations, and assuming that this solution penetrates the regolith 1 cm deep about 9.105*10^11 m^2 or 351,540 sq mi. (half the size of Alaska but twice the size of California) would be needed to create a pressure value of CO2 comparable to Earth (neglecting the polar ice caps full of CO2). However, it would work only as a supplemental terraformation method, since thus treating the entire planetary surface would produce CO2 much less than the Armstrong limit (Even with the polar ice caps).

(This paper describes Sulfate-reducing bacteria that can oxidize Acetate directly into CO2, but the downside is that it reduces sulfate into Hydrogen Sulfide, a harmful byproduct that is among other things responsible for the smell of rotten eggs.)

Perhaps such a system (or at least the first reaction), with acetic acid (or any acetate) and sulfate in the regolith, could in addition be used for the base of your chemosynthetic food chain. Life is essentially a series of redox reactions. The carbon in glucose has an oxidation state of zero, and plants (and cyanobacteria) get it from reducing the Carbon in CO2 (coupled specifically with the oxidation of water into O2), while the sulfate reducers are essentially doing a bit of the opposite, oxidizing the Carbon from Acetate and Propionate into sugars. The carbon source would have to be imported from Earth, but it is inorganic and can thus be used to kickstart the whole process. The main question is whether anybody's ever done a study on the edibility of such chemosynthesizers (as well as their nutrition for such things as fat and protein), which I think somebody should certainly do. Another drawback is that oxygenic photosynthesis is much more energetically rewarding on Earth (which is why it is the predominant form of autotrophy today), although the limited CO2 in the atmosphere and much lower sunlight could change that.

Last edited by IanM (2018-08-17 23:18:41)


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#3 2018-08-17 23:22:48

Void
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

It is good to be allowed to communicate with others who have such talents.  However, I have to warn that if you did not realize, I will be very inadequate on chemistry.  I am not incapable of learning, but only likely to be able to analyze and promote useful modifications in part, and very often not to a fine quality.  I do like your reply.

Done.


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#4 2018-08-17 23:47:31

Void
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Should go to bed, but pretty happy.

If we can get the Perchlorate effectively to a process, and the dune material to a process, we just might have a heck of a deal. 

My dream would be to be able to make ice covered lakes from water, there will be no need for transparency, so the U.V. can be completely blocked out without much trouble.  Ideally you would drill a well into an aquifer, and pull up water which would be laden with perchlorates as an Oxygen source.  Then you dump dune materials into the lake and the microbes can eat the dune materials, which I believe are not so much Oxidized fine ground basalt.  The some of the materials included in the dune materials are Iron, Chromium, and Titanium.  Calcium Perchlorate then of course is a potential source of Calcium.  We have chances of organisms that could help humans procure Iron and Calcium (For Concrete) directly, and perhaps some bizarre way to also make Chromium and Titanium available (Don't know how to do that).

Per a conversation with Spacenut some time ago, we would then still have an issue with Hexavalent chromium from the dune materials.  That will need solving.  Probably engineered microbes will help to solve it.

How much CO2 you mix in will control the acidity of the water, and provide Carbon to the microbes.  And then you must supply Nitrogen into the waters, and you might want microbes that fix that into substances suitable for fertilizing soils for your greenhouses.  Scoop the soil out of the bottom of the lake I hope.

So, when some might say "Oh Poisons", I say "Oh the Perchlorates are Oxidizers, and the dunes are fuel for a biological process to suit humans!".  I think it has real and massive potential.  I hope that the underground of Mars is full of aquifers that are full of Perchlorates.

The dune fields are like massive piles of powdered coal to me, but better, as they might also provide metals.

That's plenty!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-18 00:03:11)


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#5 2018-08-18 18:12:34

IanM
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From: Chicago
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Posts: 230

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

The reaction that the LiveScience article you provided seems to imply this overall reaction for perchlorates:

3ClO4- + S2^2- --> 2SO4^2- + 3Cl- + 2O2

There's plenty of sulfate in the Martian regolith as is, and the article states that sulfate is also used as a fuel, so that might be a bonus. I don't see any carbon in this equation so it might not quite be the best for food supply (although sufficient nutrients might be previously in place so that the colony can grow), although they might seem to also be a good source of Oxygen despite being anaerobic.


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#6 2018-08-18 18:58:36

SpaceNut
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Not knowing all the types of percholrites that mars has is part of the issue.
ClO4 is just one form of them...

The Curiosity’s SAM’s GC instrument detected significant amounts of oxygen and chlorine, suggesting that up to 0.5% of the soil consists of perchlorate compounds. Basically, the GC heats up a soil sample by passing hot (~835C, 1535F) helium gas over it, and then measures the gases that emerge. In this case, by far the most common gas released (between 1.5% and 3% by weight) was water vapor. Per cubic foot of Mars soil, this equates to a lot of water — around two pints, or almost a liter.

jake-matijevic-rock-mars-curiosity-pyramid-640x639.jpg

Perchlorate Salts and Water on Mars: An Overview of Recent Work

So we will need to refine the types found first before we can even think about the chemistry reactions that are required to make mars more liveable.

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#7 2018-08-18 20:40:28

Void
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Spacenut said:
Quote:

Not knowing all the types of percholrites that mars has is part of the issue.
ClO4 is just one form of them...
The Curiosity’s SAM’s GC instrument detected significant amounts of oxygen and chlorine, suggesting that up to 0.5% of the soil consists of perchlorate compounds. Basically, the GC heats up a soil sample by passing hot (~835C, 1535F) helium gas over it, and then measures the gases that emerge. In this case, by far the most common gas released (between 1.5% and 3% by weight) was water vapor. Per cubic foot of Mars soil, this equates to a lot of water — around two pints, or almost a liter.

Perchlorate Salts and Water on Mars: An Overview of Recent Work
So we will need to refine the types found first before we can even think about the chemistry reactions that are required to make mars more liveable.

Sorry your Spacenutness, but indeed I did and can "even think about the chemistry reactions that are....potentially useful".


No sabotage please.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-18 20:48:11)


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#8 2018-08-18 20:42:36

Void
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

IanM,

I am not familiar with Sulfates as fuels.  Interesting.  I need to learn.

What I am interested in is this (-)<Lifeforce>(+)
This is the same as this (Oxidizer)<Lifeforce/Power/Rockets>(Fuel)

Life in matter is electric in nature.  We are patterns in the materials that change form over time.  To be intelligent is to be able to remember the previous'es to compare to the now, and to be able to formulate ideas of what is going on.  Hopefully ideas that are adaptive to assist rational survival processes.  Oxidizers accept electrons.  Fuels apparently provide electrons.  Or if you like for humans Oxygen accepts electrons, and food provides electrons.

Human built mechanical machines might be created that are specifically adapted for the raw, or easily processed resources of Oxidizers and fuels on Mars, but I see a much greater potential for biological engineering of microbes.  Macrobes would be interesting, but far harder to create I believe, and microbes might provide us with the first level of the bio-pyramid.  Human intended to be at the apex, or their upgraded descendents I presume.  Intermediate will be macrobes: Shellfish, Fish/Animals, Mushrooms I presume.  But the intermediate macrobes will be coddled more than engineered.  The Microbes on the base will be assisted in adaptation to what is available (-) to (+) by enforced artificial evolution and/or intentional genetic engineering.

Although mastering these capabilities may assist in ability to terraform or alter Mars in ways other than Terra, for now I am only seeking the fulcrum and lever.  We need those first to establish our animation on Mars, in order to manipulate "Tools" for a purpose.  We presume the purposes we prefer eventually will be to the benefit of the "We", and we hope that "We" is of a heritage and/or nature we feel is worth our investment of time and energy/animation now.

To do elsewise would not be worth our existence, I feel.  How do you feel about that?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-18 21:51:07)


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#9 2018-08-18 21:41:16

SpaceNut
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

I guess that sodium, magnesium and other forms will be of not interest then....NaCl, NaClO4, CaCl2, Ca(ClO4)2, and MgCl2
hypochlorite (ClO-) and chlorine dioxide (ClO2)

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2018/pdf/1642.pdf
HYDRATION AND DEHYDRATION OF MARS …

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2014/pdf/2570.pdf
OXIDATION OF CHLORIDE TO PERCHLORATE …

What Kinds of Life Forms Could Actually Live on Mars?

New hope for life on Mars: Scientists discover bacteria that is resistant to the briny chemicals found on the red planet

'Bacteria in ten percent mass perchlorate solutions can still grow', he said.

Mars's surface soil contains less than one weight per cent of perchlorate.

The average temperature on Mars is roughly –60°C (–76F), with temperatures at the poles dropping to –125°C (–193F).

Researchers tested the bacteria through numerous freeze/thaw cycles ranging from 25°C (77F) to –50°C (–58F).

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#10 2018-08-18 21:54:58

Void
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Posts: 2,345

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Yes, indeed tolerance to extreme conditions are of interest.  However "Farming microbes" on Mars, we could take the raw materials and buffer them in such ways that it is not as brutal for them.  For example only add as much Perchlorates, and "Fuels" as the microbes can deal with efficiently/effectively to server human(oid) purposes.

Modify other factors to benefit the "Farm Microbes".

It would be a "Factory" type process I would think, involving containments, and piping and flows and process controls and so on.

Thanks for your reply.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-18 21:55:45)


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#11 2018-08-19 08:48:28

SpaceNut
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Posts: 12,522

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Another microbial farm factory type would feed on what mars has the most of, Iron oxides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_bacteria

Iron bacteria do not produce hydrogen sulfide, the "rotten egg" smell, but do create an environment where sulfur bacteria can grow and produce hydrogen sulfide. COLOR - Iron bacteria will usually cause yellow, orange, red, or brown stains and colored water.

http://www.garreltswater.com/water-qual … -bacteria/

The most common bacteria known to feed on iron are Thiobacillus ferrooxidans and Leptospirillum ferrooxidans.

https://www.lenntech.com/iron-bacteria.htm

For well drillers, prevention means disinfecting everything that goes into the the ground with a strong (250 ppm) chlorine solution.

https://www.universetoday.com/137535/me … sted-life/

https://www.seeker.com/making-mars-habi … 20191.html

https://www.popsci.com/making-martian-microbial-farmer

https://www.microbe.net/2016/12/07/usin … -and-mars/

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#12 2018-08-19 09:02:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,522

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151221 … ve-on-mars

https://qz.com/909040/algae-and-cyanoba … e-station/

Biology and Mars Experiment (BIOMEX) to understand to what extent terrestrial life can survive in space. It involved a series of pockets where hundreds of specimens of bacteria, fungi, lichens, algae, and mosses were exposed to conditions of near vacuum, temperatures between -4 °F (-20 °C) and 116 °F (47 °C), and a continuous blast of ultraviolet radiation. These two species are now being added to the small but growing list of terrestrial organisms that can survive space, which include lichens, bacteria, and water bears (tardigrades).

The key for mars will be water as well...

Earth bacteria could thrive in briny water on Mars

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#13 2018-08-19 11:02:55

Void
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Posts: 2,345

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Thank You Spacenut, I reviewed all of your materials.

I have to correct an item from my post #8:
Quote:

What I am interested in is this (-)<Lifeforce>(+)
This is the same as this (Oxidizer)<Lifeforce/Power/Rockets>(Fuel)

Probably should be:What I am interested in is this (+)<Lifeforce>(-)
This is the same as this (Oxidizer)<Lifeforce/Power/Rockets>(Fuel)

As I think the fuels provide electrons and the Oxidizers provide holes.

……

Perhaps I will misuse this word but perhaps you will understand anyway: 'disequilibrium.'  I picked it up on this site.  Lets see if I can use it approximately correctly.

For microbe farming, I am seeking a wide window of chemical disequlibrium on Mars.  To harness this potential we will need a chain of biology I think which can link the extreme (+) to the extreme (-) available on Mars.

Mistakes in my references and thinking here are a possibility.  I will rely on others and my own future to catch them, and to provide modifications to my expectations.

For now I consider that the dust processes on Mars may be of great interest.

While here on Earth, green biology, provides Oxidizers in the form of Oxygen in the atmosphere, and plant matter to be food/fuel, on Mars, I think a very significant differentiator which may provide disequilibrium are dust processes.

Dust Devils are thought to provide Oxidizers in the form of Peroxides leading to Perchlorate.
https://phys.org/news/2006-07-mars-storms-peroxide.html
So then we have electrical holes generated in the chemistry of Mars.

Then we have volcanic emissions and the Aeolian (wind) weathering processes, which produces a relatively fine grained material for the sand dunes of Mars.  My hope is that the not completely Oxidized materials of these sand dunes will provide electrons to biology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_processes

……

While we might think to mine the regolith of Mars for chemicals both (+) and (-) in nature to assist a abiotic>biotic Oxidizer/fuel food web, I would prefer to deal with fluids.

The hope being that Mars has very substantial aquifers filled with Oxidizers.  That of course being a water based fluid.  As for the dunes, they are not in reality a fluid, but granular collections can behave like a fluid in certain handling methods.

…..

A containment to join the (+) fluid to the (-) fluid is required.  We will want it to be low cost.  Ice covered lakes may do.  The ice then being covered with a lower cost obtainable material to keep the effects of heat, U.V. and dryness away from the containment process.

…..

So then we want to join an abiotic base to a biotic life support system for human(oids).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-19 11:26:18)


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#14 2018-08-20 09:49:15

Void
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Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

An Oxygen concentrator (Gill) for Earths atmosphere.

https://info.inogen.com/brand.php?num=8 … tent=Brand

How does it work?
https://www.inogen.com/resources/oxygen … ator-work/
Quote:

How Does an Oxygen Concentrator Work?
An oxygen concentrator works much like a window air conditioning unit: it takes in air, modifies it and delivers it in a new form. An oxygen concentrator takes in air and purifies it for use by people requiring medical oxygen due to low oxygen levels in their blood.
It works by:
Taking in air from its surroundings
Compressing air, while the cooling mechanism keeps the concentrator from overheating
Removing nitrogen from the air via filter and sieve beds
Adjusting delivery settings with an electronic interface
Delivering the purified oxygen via a nasal cannula or mask

Do I think that it could work for Mars as a portable device?  No.

But it is in the family of "Atmospheric Separations" methods or "Atmospheric Gills".

It is a reference which could be consulted for the purpose of hoping to build a stationary of planted device which might extract concentrations of a particular gas from the atmosphere of Mars.

It is a start.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-08-20 09:54:02)


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#15 2018-08-21 16:19:29

knightdepaix
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Posts: 126

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

knightdepaix paraphrasing from void wrote:

It is good to be allowed to communicate with others who have such talents.  However, I have to warn that if you did not realize, I will be inadequate on numerous parts of knowlege.  I am not incapable of learning, but only likely to be able to extend what has been learnt very often not to a fine quality.  I do like your reply.
Done.

Having said the above, please let me point out individual chemical compounds.
Acetic acid, hydrogen sulfide, sulfate, carbon dioxide, methane, glucose, human organic waste, sulfur dioxide, chlorine dioxide, hypochlorite, sodium chloride, magnesium perchlorate, calcium perchlorate, magnesium perchlorate, iron oxides, chromium oxides, titanium oxides.

IanM wrote:

Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Acetic (EDIT:Propionic) Acid would be:
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)
C6H12O6(s) -> 2CO2(g) + 2C2H5OH(l) (Fermentation, courtesy probably of yeast)
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 4CO2(g) + 4C2H5OH(l) + S(s) (Overall reaction)
I did some calculations, and assuming that this solution penetrates the regolith 1 cm deep about 9.105*10^11 m^2 or 351,540 sq mi. (half the size of Alaska but twice the size of California) would be needed to create a pressure value of CO2 comparable to Earth (neglecting the polar ice caps full of CO2). However, it would work only as a supplemental terraformation method, since thus treating the entire planetary surface would produce CO2 much less than the Armstrong limit (Even with the polar ice caps).
(This paper describes Sulfate-reducing bacteria that can oxidize Acetate directly into CO2, but the downside is that it reduces sulfate into Hydrogen Sulfide, a harmful byproduct that is among other things responsible for the smell of rotten eggs.)

Instead, can the glucose made be used for human consumption? For example, dehydrating the glucose into starch. Both the glucose and the starch will be among the starting material for a food producing warehouse or factory for human settlements on Mars. The question then yield two other parts: 1) how to make propionic acid and 2) to treat the hydrogen sulfide waste.
1) Imagine propionic acid as a combination of ethane and carbon dioxide. Methane is available from underground source on Mars and carbon dioxide is prevalent chemical compound in the atmosphere. Atmopheric separation is discussed in another thread. Taking as example the mass production of ammonia by the Haber process from petrochemical source and air on Earth, a factory take methane from Mars underground and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, purify them, react them on zeolite (aluminum, transition metal, silicon oxides) catalyst to make acetic acid in an endogenic reaction. Kolbe electrolysis generates ethane and carbon dioxde from acetic acid. Then another batch of zeolite catalyzes a reaction between the ethane and the carbon dioxide to propionic acid. As IanM described above, the propionic acid reacts with sulfate to give glucose with sulfur or hydrogen sulfide. Heat is transported by compressed carbon dioxide or better helium as working fluid from the waste heat of a nuclear power plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium#Applications wrote:

For its inertness and high thermal conductivity, neutron transparency, and because it does not form radioactive isotopes under reactor conditions, helium is used as a heat-transfer medium in some gas-cooled nuclear reactors.

Helium is lighter than air on Earth and can escape on its own the atmosphere on Mars so helium is lightly lighter than air on Mars. As helium is a byproduct of nuclear reactors and ligher than Martian air, it can be used to fill airships for passenger and small volume of luggage transportation locally from one settlement to another. All the technologies described so far in this point 1) are readily available. Customizing them for use on Mars is another story.
2)On Earth, sulfur containing amino acid cysteine and methionine derive from serine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Biosynthesis wrote:

In plants and bacteria, cysteine biosynthesis also starts from serine, which is converted to O-acetylserine by the enzyme serine transacetylase. The enzyme O-acetylserine (thiol)-lyase, using sulfide sources, converts this ester into cysteine, releasing acetate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsulfuration_pathway wrote:

The forward pathway is present in several bacteria, such as Escherichia coli[3] and Bacillus subtilis,[4] and involves the transfer of the thiol group from cysteine to homocysteine (methionine precursor with the S-methyl group), thanks to the γ-replacement of the acetyl or succinyl group of a homoserine with cysteine via its thiol group to form cystathionine (catalysed by cystathionine γ-synthase, which is encoded by metB in E. coli and metI in B. subtilis). Cystathionine is then cleaved by means of the β-elimination of the homocysteine portion of the molecule leaving behind an unstable imino acid, which is attacked by water to form pyruvate and ammonia (catalysed by the metC-encoded cystathionine β-lyase[5]). The production of homocysteine through transsulfuration allows the conversion of this intermediate to methionine, through a methylation reaction carried out by methionine synthase.

The fermentation of glucose produces serine in large volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine#Synthesis_and_industrial_production wrote:

Industrially, L-serine is produced by fermentation, with an estimated 100-1000 tonnes per year produced.

So the glucose by the IanM's method is consumed in a food factory to starch and serine. Biotechnology allows that the serine consumes the hydrogen sulfide waste to generate cysteine and the byproduct acetate, and the cysteine consumes ammonium to generate homocysteine, serine and water, and the homocysteine consumes a methyl group -- potentially from the byproduct acetate  -- to methionine and byproduct carbon dioxide. Essentially water and carbon dioxide are only byproducts in the end. IanM's method consumes the carbon dioxde and the water reacting with methane is useful for generating hydrogen as chemical reducing agent, see below. That reaction resembles the production of hydrogen for the Haber process, see the youtube link provided above.

2.1) If there are still more hydrogen sulfide waste, here is where the transition metal oxides participate in the process. Iron-sulfur proteins are important for various enzymes and complexes for photosynthesis for energy transformation from light to chemical energy and nitrogen fixation. So organism could potentially take iron oxides and hydrogen sulfide to generate iron-sulfide in their proteins and release water that can also be consumed in other biochemical reactions -- essentially no waste is generated. Thus hydrogen sulfide is an end product on this end.

2.2) Another stream of consuming the hydrogen sulfide is production of calcium, iron and titanium sulfides. Reinforced concrete on Earth uses iron in reinforcing bar, calcium and silicon oxides in cement and aggregates of sand and rocks. On Mars the aggregate waste that are not converted to any useful product or byproduct after mining methane and transition metal oxide and the sand and rocks can replace their counterparts on Earth. Calcium sulfide replaces its calcium oxide counterpart. Further,

IanM wrote:

The reaction that the LiveScience article provided seems to imply this overall reaction for perchlorates:
3ClO4- + S2^2- --> 2SO4^2- + 3Cl- + 2O2
There's plenty of sulfate in the Martian regolith as is, and the article states that sulfate is also used as a fuel, so that might be a bonus. They might seem to also be a good source of Oxygen despite being anaerobic.

Here is where the perchlorates participate in the process. Perchlorates, especially calcium perchlorate, oxidize the hydrogen sulfide to sulfuric acid and alkaline metal or alkali chloride and oxygen. In another thread, mass production of sulfuric acid is discussed.
Titanium and Chromium oxides yield titanium and chromium respectively that can potentially participate in the steel of the reinforcing bar or as metals with their own utility. Iron(II,III) sulfide is ferrimagentic like its magnetite or iron(II,III)_oxide counterpart. and thus can replace its counterpart in situations. Having typed that, the mass of mined FeO, Fe2O3 and Fe3O4 can be balanced between making iron metal and Fe3O4 because the desired mass of Fe3O4 was made after full reduction by hydrogen or oxidation to Fe3O4. Some mass of Fe3O4 is converted to the sulfide counterpart. Fe3O4 will be saved for special applications such as catalysts in nitrogen fixation and reversed water-gas shift reaction. Another thread discusses the availability of nitrogen so nitrogen fixation is desired for its use on Mars. The consumption shown above of ammonium by the amino acid cysteine is illustrative. Titanium disulfide TiS2 is made from consuming titanium dioxide, the hydrogen sulfide, the alkali metal from various IanM's reaction and could potentially be used with alkali metal lithium for special application such as rechargeable battery for the electricity grid. Anyhow, I guess titanium oxide would mostly be converted to titanium metal that can be used for the metal frame of the airships mentioned above. The propellant for the airship "hoppers" from settlement to settlement can potentially be silane.

Now a small group of machines operating the Fischer–Tropsch process on iron catalyst promoted by alkali metal oxides -- potentially from byproduct of IanM's reaction of perchlorate and sulfide -- can close the loop of any organic, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and hydrogen leftover and generate hydrocarbons.

After all the above, the chemical element that are not covered is sodium, magnesium and potassium and that are potentially left over are chlorine and oxygen elements. Potassium can be saved for special applications for greenhouses as fertilizers and thus limiting mining too much of its perchlorates.Sodium chloride is the main ingredient of brine and controlling its salinity in soil within in greenhouse is important. Magnesium can be saved for special applications for pure metal production after purifying the target metal chlorides. Kroll process of consuming magnesium for making titanium metal is illustrative. As sodium metal can also be used for such function. The balance of magnesium, sodium, potassium of various agricultural and metallurgical processes save mining too much their perchlorates. Another small group of machines can consume the leftover mass of chlorine element and the hydrocarbon from the above Fischer-Tropsch process to organic compounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine#Applications wrote:

Quantitatively, of all elemental chlorine produced, about 63% is used in the manufacture of organic compounds, and 18% in the manufacture of inorganic chlorine compounds.[63] About 15,000 chlorine compounds are used commercially.[64] The remaining 19% of chlorine produced is used for bleaches and disinfection products.[62] The most significant of organic compounds in terms of production volume are 1,2-dichloroethane and vinyl chloride, intermediates in the production of PVC. Other particularly important organochlorines are methyl chloride, methylene chloride, chloroform, vinylidene chloride, trichloroethylene, perchloroethylene, allyl chloride, epichlorohydrin, chlorobenzene, dichlorobenzenes, and trichlorobenzenes. The major inorganic compounds include HCl, Cl2O, HOCl, NaClO3, chlorinated isocyanurates, AlCl3, SiCl4, SnCl4, PCl3, PCl5, POCl3, AsCl3, SbCl3, SbCl5, BiCl3, S2Cl2, SCl2, SOCI2, ClF3, ICl, ICl3, TiCl3, TiCl4, MoCl5, FeCl3, ZnCl2, and so on.[62]

At this last but not least moment, please let me revisit one of IanM's equations:

IanM wrote:

The reaction that the LiveScience article provided seems to imply this overall reaction for perchlorates:
3ClO4- + S2^2- --> 2SO4^2- + 3Cl- + 2O2
There's plenty of sulfate in the Martian regolith as is, and the article states that sulfate is also used as a fuel, so that might be a bonus. They might seem to also be a good source of Oxygen despite being anaerobic.

Extra mass of oxygen are left. The rechargeable battery shown above can save waste energy to generate ozone from the extra oxygen. Besides its massive human use on Earth,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Ozone_in_Earth's_atmosphere wrote:

The annual global warming potential of tropospheric ozone is between 918–1022 tons carbon dioxide equivalent/tons tropospheric ozone. This means on a per-molecule basis, ozone in the troposphere has a radiative forcing effect roughly 1,000 times as strong as carbon dioxide. However, tropospheric ozone is a short-lived greenhouse gas, which decays in the atmosphere much more quickly than carbon dioxide. This means that over a 20-year span, the global warming potential of tropospheric ozone is much less, roughly 62 to 69 tons carbon dioxide equivalent / ton tropospheric ozone.[48] Because of its short-lived nature, tropospheric ozone does not have strong global effects, but has very strong radiative forcing effects on regional scales. In fact, there are regions of the world where tropospheric ozone has a radiative forcing up to 150% of carbon dioxide.[49]

Releasing ozone into the atmosphere well above a human settlement can potentially locally shield harmful ultraviolet off but are there some researches done for its use on Mars? Global warming using fluorocarbons effecting terraforming is discussed in another thread but that content is beyond this thread's. Hey, I did not see a fluorine element in the list of chemical compounds at the top.

Thank you for your kindness and time in reading all the way to the bottom.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-08-22 20:02:01)

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#16 2018-08-21 17:11:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,522

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Wow what a great posting knightdepaix with all that content from the various topics to form how we go about chain process for mars in a waste not passing of what we take in to what we will get out....
This ought to be put into a wiki page if any one is doing that.....

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#17 2018-08-21 20:56:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,345

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

Quote knightdepaix:

Thank you for your kindness and time in reading all the way to the bottom.

Yes, I actually did read all the way to the bottom.

My best competence might be in Process Control, Electrical Power Transmission, Electronics, Software, Collecting Data accurately (Rather to the level of accuracy which is worth the effort), Calibrations, Repairing Scientific Equipment, and not so fancy equipment as well.

However I am not except as amateur guesswork, a chemist.  I tend to be Autodidactic, and have dabbled a bit in books and on the web, but most definitely cannot keep up with what you wrote.  Pieces of it.  And if I were to review it over time more of it probably.

But I guess it sums up as "We can make good stuff from raw materials on Mars".  Of course I like that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-21 21:03:02)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#18 2018-08-22 18:04:07

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 126

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

knightdepaix paraphrasing from void wrote:

It is good to be allowed to communicate with others who have such talents.  However, I have to warn that if you did not realize, I will be inadequate on numerous parts of knowlege.  I am not incapable of learning, but only likely to be able to extend what has been learnt very often not to a fine quality.  I do like your reply.
Done.

In regards to Void's original post on chemosynthesis, a symbiosis of microbes could work.
1st colony of microbes breath sulfate and human mined methane or propionic acid to hydrogen sulfide or sulfur and carbohydrates.

IanM wrote:

SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)

2nd mircobes colony breath hydrogen sulfide waste with atmospheric carbon dioxide to carbohydrates and sulfur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis wrote:

hydrogen sulfide chemosynthesis:[3] 12H2S + 6CO2 → C6H12O6 (=carbohydrate) + 6H2O + 12S

How can human farm the sulfur inside the cytoplasm of these microbes #2?
3rd mircobes breath perchlorates and human mined methane or propionic acid to carbohydrates, water and chloride ion. Can iron, titanium, chromium oxides be used as oxygen sources? If possible, how can these microbes accumulate iron, titanium or chromium inside their cytoplams?
Done.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-08-22 20:01:44)

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#19 2018-08-22 20:55:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,345

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

IanM will have to talk Sulfur himself of course.

I actually have two plans.
1) The sand dunes of Mars are granular and powder of basalt.  Olivine and Pyroxene I believe are included in them.
https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2018/pdf/2603.pdf
Quote:

Previous visible/near-infrared (VNIR) spectral studies of the global population of martian sand dunes have suggested that the dune sands are uniform in composition, and are a mixture of high-calcium pyroxene (HCP) and olivine [3]. However, regional studies have shown that much more diversity in present. In the north polar region, the large sand seas are composed of HCP, weathered Fe-bearing glass, and gypsum [4], and much of the dark sediments of the northern plains may also be glass-rich [5,6]. Valles Marineris dune fields contain olivine, HCP, lowcalcium pyroxene (LCP), sulfates, and weathered glass [7]. Recent in situ mineralogical analysis of active dunes in Gale crater by the Curiosity rover have shown that pyroxene, olivine, and probable glass are all present [8]. Thus, these results suggest that dune compositions are diverse and may provide some insight into the origin of the dune sediments.

Serpentinization:
http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~mstrick/AskG … rry45.html
Quote:

Ask GeoMan...

What is serpentinization? I'm a senior Chemical Engineering student at Clemson University and I can't seem to find a decent definition.
Serpentinization is a processes whereby rock (usually ultramafic) is changed, with the addition of water into the crystal structure of the minerals found within the rock. A common example is the serpentinization of peridotite (or dunite) into serpentinite (the metamorphic equivalent).
Here's where it gets a bit fuzzy:
Metamorphic processes usually involve the addition of heat and pressure: a rock is buried, heats up and is squeezed, and the minerals change in an attempt to regain equilibrium with the new environment (like shale to slate, or limestone to marble).
In the case of peridotite to serpentinite, the process actually involves a reduction in heat and pressure. Peridotite starts out as a sub-crustal, upper mantle rock. If tectonic forces move it nearer to the surface, the reduction in T&P cause the minerals (usually olivine and pyroxene) to destabilize and change into the mineral serpentine. No, I'm not mixing up rocks and minerals. Serpentinite is a rock which is composed of the mineral serpentine and formed by a process called serpentinization (which results in far too much confusion for most of us normal mortals).
Click here for some additional information from my GeoTour to the serpentinites of the Josephine Ophiolite.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your studies. If you need any additional information, you know how to reach me.

Further Reading:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 711730004X
There are some problems with this.  Typically Serpentinization is discussed at high pressures and temperatures.
Quote:

Abstract
Serpentinization produces molecular hydrogen (H2) that can support communities of microorganisms in hydrothermal fields; H2 results from the oxidation of ferrous iron in olivine and pyroxene into ferric iron, and consequently iron oxide (magnetite or hematite) forms. However, the mechanisms that control H2 and iron oxide formation are poorly constrained. In this study, we performed serpentinization experiments at 311 °C and 3.0 kbar on olivine (with <5% pyroxene), orthopyroxene, and peridotite. The results show that serpentine and iron oxide formed when olivine and orthopyroxene individually reacted with a saline starting solution. Olivine-derived serpentine had a significantly lower FeO content (6.57 ± 1.30 wt.%) than primary olivine (9.86 wt.%), whereas orthopyroxene-derived serpentine had a comparable FeO content (6.26 ± 0.58 wt.%) to that of primary orthopyroxene (6.24 wt.%). In experiments on peridotite, olivine was replaced by serpentine and iron oxide. However, pyroxene transformed solely to serpentine. After 20 days, olivine-derived serpentine had a FeO content of 8.18 ± 1.56 wt.%, which was significantly higher than that of serpentine produced in olivine-only experiments. By contrast, serpentine after orthopyroxene had a slightly higher FeO content (6.53 ± 1.01 wt.%) than primary orthopyroxene. Clinopyroxene-derived serpentine contained a significantly higher FeO content than its parent mineral. After 120 days, the FeO content of olivine-derived serpentine decreased significantly (5.71 ± 0.35 wt.%), whereas the FeO content of orthopyroxene-derived serpentine increased (6.85 ± 0.63 wt.%) over the same period. This suggests that iron oxide preferentially formed after olivine serpentinization. Pyroxene in peridotite gained some Fe from olivine during the serpentinization process, which may have led to a decrease in iron oxide production. The correlation between FeO content and SiO2 or Al2O3 content in olivine- and orthopyroxene-derived serpentine indicates that aluminum and silica greatly control the production of iron oxide. Based on our results and data from natural serpentinites reported by other workers, we propose that aluminum may be more influential at the early stages of peridotite serpentinization when the production of iron oxide is very low, whereas silica may have a greater control on iron oxide production during the late stages instead.

Here is another item:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 05GL022691
Quote:

1. Introduction
[2] Recent detection of CH4 in the Martian atmosphere [Formisano et al., 2004] has suggested that methanogenic microbes [Krasnopolsky et al., 2004], thermal decomposition of buried organic material, comet and meteor impacts [Kress and McKay, 2004], mantle plumes, or hydrothermal alteration of basalt may be the greenhouse gas source. However, CH4 abundance is spatially variable indicating localized sources in the Martian regolith. Given that the residence time of CH4 in the Martian atmosphere is short (∼340 yr) [Krasnopolsky et al., 2004], comet and meteor impacts and/or magmatic activity are not likely to account for the current spatial variability of CH4. The bulk of CH4 produced on Earth is generated by bacteria and it has been suggested that CH4 could be a tracer of life on another planet. Here we propose that the entire inventory of CH4 on Mars is abiotic and related to the hydration of olivine and pyroxenes (serpentinization) close to the Martian surface. Serpentinization at depths, where H2O(l) is potentially present, is a viable source of H2, which reacts with CO2 to form CH4.

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine
Quote:

The mineral olivine ( /ˈɒlɪˌviːn/) is a magnesium iron silicate with the formula (Mg2+, Fe2+)2SiO4. Thus it is a type of nesosilicate or orthosilicate. It is a common mineral in Earth's subsurface but weathers quickly on the surface.

A bacteria that Eats (Oxidizes) iron: (I have seen references to organisms that also breath iron (reduce it)).
https://blogreu.wordpress.com/2018/07/0 … -eat-iron/

Perhaps I will be redeemed here: (Although it quite Skyintific, makes me want to bark at the Moon) smile
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/50/20626.long
Quote(s):

Microbial life at −13 °C in the brine of an ice-sealed Antarctic lake

Consequently, we conclude that H2 in Lake Vida likely has an inorganic origin, radiolysis or serpentinization, and that microbial H2 consumption and the passage of time have not been sufficient for the H2 in Lake Vida to reach isotopic equilibrium. Thus, the isotopic composition of DIC, sulfate, N2O, and H2 provide little to no indication of alteration by microbial processes and are largely consistent with inorganic origins.

Not sure how much that helped my hopes.

……

Anyway to end the pain, my desire is that the dune material would be weathered in an artificial lake containment by microbes, I anticipate that they would used water to provide their Oxygen.  That may release Hydrogen for them to feed on.  A rust process assisted by microbes.

In addition, I would hope to be able to provide Perchlorates in another situation for the Hydrogen to be consumed.

In other words dune materials as food for the microbes, the Olivine and Pyroxene, and Perchlorates as "Air".
……
……
……

2) If that is not workable, then plan "B" is to use electrolysis or photolysis to split H20 and or CO2.  Generating H2 and CO which are fuels, and Oxygen which is breathable by humans.  You could burn your CO and H2 in the Oxygen you produced, but why not instead allow microbes to digest the CO and H2, and to breath Perchlorates?

Then you have a use for the Perchlorates, and you can use the fuels to produce chemosynthesis.  The Oxygen is left over for humans to breath.


……
…..
……


And you mentioned Methane.  It does seem probably that there is natural gas to drill for on Mars, due to historical Serpentization I would think.  If so, then along with the Methane, you have Perchlorates, and so could do as much chemosynthesis as the supplies and the ability to manipulate the processes would allow.

……
……
……


Lots of materials, and I do not completely warrantee that the ideas are ultimately workable, but I think they are worth looking into.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-22 22:01:26)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#20 2018-08-25 14:48:48

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 126

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

IanM wrote:

I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Propionic Acid into sugar.

Previously in previous post, acetic acid is first made as acetic acid is useful itself. If propionic acid is made without the acetic acid as first product, the following reaction reflects a possibility.
9H2+3CO2 --->3H2O+3CO+6H2
2CO+4H2---> C2H4+2H2O(The case for mars page 182)
C2H4+CO+H2O--->CH3CH2CO2H (

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propionic_acid#Production wrote:

In industry, propionic acid is mainly produced by the hydrocarboxylation of ethene using nickel carbonyl as the catalyst:[13]
H2C=CH2 + H2O + CO → CH3CH2CO2H

In total, the reaction becomes
9H2+3CO2--->4H2O+CH3CH2CO2H+2H2
Or if the ratio of reactants is optimized, the reaction then becomes
7H2+3CO2--->4H2O+CH3CH2CO2H
The advantages of this reaction are forming the gaseous ethene instead of solid acetic acid under Martian atmosphere and ethene itself which is very useful.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-08-25 14:49:54)

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#21 2018-08-31 00:53:20

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 126

Re: Perchlorate for Chemosynthesis on Mars

This post can be off from the topic of this thread. Vanadium redox battery is used on Earth for grid storage, operating on vanadium cations. How about redox oxygen storage on sulfur or chlorine oxoanions?

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