Fun and games - 3 hypothetical Martian settlements...

soph · 2003-04-13 17:57:00

What I see as a major benefit of Mars Direct is that it will be an economic core-private companies will send missions around it, perhaps a consortium of companies (McDonald's, Radioshack, etc.) with people and products, to sell to the Martian market.

The same market that the ISS provides the private sector now (or the hopeful fledgling companies) will be comparable to the market a Mars Direct base would provide private industry.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-13 21:25:27

Heh, anyone else find it ironic that Golconda 3.0 orignally sounds like a welfare state?

Bill White · 2003-04-13 22:29:43

I believe mass colonization will only happen once the private sector can get people into space en masse and economically.

Given the exponential growth rates that arise from biological reproduction (like compound interest) a settlement that has mastered CELSS technology and the ability to extract raw materials can grow rather nicely without mass emigration.

I read a few weeks ago the suggestion that as few as a few thousand individuals of a particular species of ape migrated from Africa and all humans are descended from those very few. It explains why human DNA is so very very close across all racial and ethnic lines - our species started from a very small population.

Put 500 settlers on Mars and isolate them. Within a few centuries, at most, the planet will be swarming with humanity. It is my opinion the development of true CELSS technology will foster a staggering growth in human population throughout the solar system - not from emigration but from birth rates.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-13 23:10:40

Ahh, Bill White, CELSS is the word I was looking for to define the biosphere I've always been envisioning. Other people see this line of thinking also. Interestingly, some sites I have found have called them biospheres, so I wasn't far off from the norm. Pretty good number of hits about these systems, too. Seems a lot have been incorporating hydroponics as per what I was thinking. Very interesting, indeed. Wish I'd read of this term before, a search for space biosphers isn't very useful. Nice to know that there is at least a little research in this area.

Josh Cryer · 2003-04-17 23:02:12

I'm bringing this over from the other thread out of politeness.

A welfare state is about giving welfare to a significant segment of the population. A small base which resembles a military installation is about hard work and obeying orders.

Hmm, fair enough. But I've always thought of a welfare state as a something that takes care of people and removes their personal responsiblity. A military installation delegates personal responsiblity to a central authority. All the grunts can mess up or not do their job or whatever, and all they do is get yelled at or put in detention, whereas the guy in charge of all those grunts gets in major trouble. Especially if they're a huge number of misfits.

I used to work with a civilian subcontractor who worked for the Army around Ft. Carson (in Colorado), and I can tell you, first hand, that many Army guys are lazy bastards. Sure, they take orders, but for the most part, they take their time and are pretty lazy. The real situation is that in a group of 20 or so guys, we'd have maybe 5 of them who actually worked, while the rest did crap (just because it looks like someone is shoveling doesn't mean that someone is doing it to their best potential).

I'm not saying that it would be the same in this situation (though there's still the issue of all that taxpayer money, which would arguably go nowhere), but I think my definition works... I mean, think about it. The US military is where many minorities go to make a living. They can't make it anywhere else, so they chose the military. Heck, even some small time criminals are out there (they're given a second chance in the military). My brother joked with me recently, that he was more afraid of his convict comrads than his Iraqi enemies. To call the military not a welfare state is to, in my mind, raise it up too much.

I think a democratic system where everyone is equal is a much more admirable system.

Sounds almost like clark's state, only it has a little more freedom.

I'd prefer a system where no one had to take orders from anyone at all. But such a system is constantly deemed unrealistic by my fellow forumgoers.

In Golconda 3.0, [I was describing] the most realistic and likely scenario.

Hmm, if that Mini-Orian system can be built, I could see that, but I could also see civilian colonies (funded by rich people or large pro-Mars organizations). I think the civilian ones would be much more freer and enjoyable.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-18 12:36:40

Josh Cryer;

Since we're talking, in my hypothetical, about a base on Mars with a necessarily small population of carefully selected explorers and scientists, who had to be hard-working and highly motivated to make it there in the first place, that imposes some limits to how far you can take the analogy to a military base on Earth.

Hmm, if that Mini-Orian system can be built, I could see that, but I could also see civilian colonies (funded by rich people or large pro-Mars organizations). I think the civilian ones would be much more freer and enjoyable.

Maybe, but I was thinking of the most likely way for things to eventually work in the direction I'd like. Remember, getting there in the first place means pretty deep pockets.

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Re: Fun and games - 3 hypothetical Martian settlements...

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