Musk Talks Batteries

louis · 2018-06-10 07:12:28

Musk sounds pretty bullish about battery storage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bOX5ej9o2k

SpaceNut · 2018-06-10 09:03:26

We know that the batteries are the achilies heal with storage that kw/kg matters when lifting it to mars which is all the more reason to learn how to make even crude batteries from the easiest of obtainable materials until we can refine the materials to make a better quality means of power storage. Hand in hand goes power generation which is constrained by the same reason of getting it to mars.

SpaceNut · 2018-06-10 20:16:44

I think kbd512 did create or asked about lithium polymer (plastic) batteris but can not seem to find it...

https://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/ … t-explode/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/ … t-explode/

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-28 10:28:14

There are many topics which include the word battery or (in this case) batteries

I thought this topic might be a good fit for an article that appears to have started from a Musk quote ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesl … 34016.html

However, not all is lost for domestic manufacturing in the United States. “The good news for building local LFP manufacturing is that the supply chain is simple: Outside of lithium, it's iron and phosphoric acid, two cheap materials already made [in the U.S.] in large quantities,” Jaffe added.
In the end, it is not a question of one battery chemistry versus another. What’s more likely is what we’ve already started to see from automakers, including Tesla: Iron-based batteries will be used predominately in entry-level and cheaper vehicles, while nickel-based cells will be used for higher-end and performance cars. Many consumers will likely be content with a 200- to 250-mile-range vehicle that's thousands of dollars cheaper than one with a range of 300 to 350 miles.
Automakers have also begun making moves to take control of the battery supply, whether through vertical manufacturing or joint ventures with established battery companies. That means that growing LFP capacity in North America and Europe is not only likely, but inevitable.

The article at the link above offers analysis and forecasts for battery chemistries related (primarily) to automotive applications.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-07-28 18:59:40

The issue for Iron use is the scale of the battery to make is that of a building and does not lend to use in a vehicle.

Liquid electrolytes are fine for most earth applications but for mars they would tend to become froze unless well insulated from conduction from its surroundings which it could be in contact with.

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-30 15:48:00

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/finance … 00256.html

Editor OilPrice.com
Fri, July 30, 2021, 10:30 AM
The giant Tesla lithium-ion battery that French Neoen is building in the Australian province of Victoria is burning, according to the fire and rescue service of the province.
"A 13 tonne lithium battery in a shipping container is fully involved with crews wearing breathing apparatus working to contain the fire and stop it spreading to nearby batteries," Fire and Rescue Victoria reported earlier today, adding that there was no threat to local residents or drivers despite the release of smoke at the sight.

Every technology has it's risks.

Of all the "battery" topics, this one seemed (to me at least) the best fit.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-07-30 20:12:17

Tesla Megapack caught on fire at giant battery project in Australia Tesla-Megapack-fire.jpg?w=1500&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1
300 MW/450 MWh battery system that’s like 4,500 Tesla vehicles connected together. with up to 3 MWh of battery cells in a single Tesla Megapack weighing 13-tonne

louis · 2021-07-31 17:29:14

File under “energy facility fires”. It’s a huge file.

SpaceNut wrote:

Tesla Megapack caught on fire at giant battery project in Australiahttps://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2021/07/Tesla-Megapack-fire.jpg?w=1500&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1
300 MW/450 MWh battery system that’s like 4,500 Tesla vehicles connected together. with up to 3 MWh of battery cells in a single Tesla Megapack weighing 13-tonne

Calliban · 2021-08-01 04:22:17

It would have been sensible to build these battery facilities with brick or concrete fire walls in between battery units, to limit the potential for fire spread. It wouldn't add very much to the cost. It was a poor design decision to cluster these units closely together without any passive fire protection.

SpaceNut · 2021-08-01 08:22:22

These are built into what appear to be metal conex boxes but to stop fire spread the units need quick disconnects and more space between them to stop spread or chain reactions from occurring.

SpaceNut · 2021-09-27 20:38:49

Tesla improved the safety of their utility-scale, lithium ion battery energy storage systems.
Two Tesla Megapacks erupted into flames at the 300 megawatt (450 megawatt hours) facility where 210 of the units the facility contains.

Tesla and Neoen will resume testing of big battery in Australia after July fire

kbd512 · 2021-09-28 09:10:43

That battery was built a few short years ago. Maybe your Tesla EV battery will last for 10 years, but I seriously doubt it. It's merely a matter of time before a minor manufacturing defect or damage from aberrant operation results in an electrical short that causes instant arc welding temperatures inside the cell. Unfortunately, no battery is built to withstand internal arc welding. While it's relatively easy to set fire to a combustion engine power plant, it's also possible for a fire department or onsite equipment to extinguish that fire. There's absolutely nothing that a fire department can do if a battery ignites, because the resultant release of energy happens at the speed of light. The very thing that makes high-energy density batteries so desirable to have, also makes them uncontrollable in the event of an emergency. Even a fuel cell can cut off reactant flow into the cell if uncontrolled ignition of the mixture occurs. The only type of battery that could potentially work that way is a flow battery.

It's not as if Tesla "did a bad job", it's that nobody truly knows how to stop dendrite growth within Lithium-ion batteries, and the more energy-dense the battery becomes by decreasing anode / cathode separation and increasing activated material surface area, the more of a problem it becomes, and faster. Some have inhibited or slowed dendrite growth using separator membranes, but there's no stopping it, and everything done to that end either decreases cell capacity or charge / discharge rate (and it's not hard to figure out why).

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-28 10:13:58

For all re this topic in recent days ....

I went back just a few posts and found Calliban suggesting brick or concrete walls between battery pods

Immediately after that, SpaceNut offered a suggestion of space between pods, as well as quick disconnect ...

Since "floor space" for large arrays of batteries like this is (most likely) at a premium (the land cannot be used for anything else) I think Calliban's suggestion makes the most sense, and it would not surprise me at all to see it implemented in large grid sized arrays in future.

SpaceNut's quick disconnect feature certainly makes sense, but I would ** hope ** that idea is already in play.

***
With thanks for contributions to date, I'm hoping all members with posting privileges will keep watch for developments in this category and add news/reports/insights as they become available.

SearchTerm:dendrites as cause of battery failure

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-29 06:32:48

Alsym Energy introduce batteries without lithium, cobalt or nickel material.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/06/15/ … batteries/

kbd512 · 2022-06-29 09:07:56

Alsym hasn't introduced anything at all. The title of the article is "Alsym emerges from stealth mode" is a complete lie. There are zero details about Alsym's battery (cell chemistry or materials used, manufacturing cost- ignoring all claims without evidence, energy density, cycle life and capacity retention, cell voltage, etc). The article's author doesn't even know if patents have been filed. Zero pertinent details have been provided. They're "hoping" to build a 500kWh "prototype manufacturing facility" sometime in the near future (no dates provided), which means their cell chemistry has never been produced at scale. They claim their cell can be produced on a Lithium-ion manufacturing line but uses no Lithium. They supposedly partnered with an auto maker in India, but which one must be another big secret.

I could write articles like this:

"Yeah, so there's this new battery that doesn't use Lithium or Cobalt or Nickel and it's going to be produced sometime, somewhere, for someone, using something."

I don't know what's worse, the fact that someone was paid to write this, or the fact that someone allowed it to be published.

A year later, after we find out that the company folded because they can't make the battery, we will still have no info on what they did or what went wrong.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-06 10:09:55

The 'sand' battery stores renewable energy as heat.
https://www.engadget.com/sand-battery-s … 12914.html
Polar Night Energy’s first commercial sand-based high temperature heat storage is now in operation at Vatajankoski power plant area. The heat storage, which has a hundred tons of sand inside, is producing low emission district heating to the city of Kankaanpää in Western Finland.
Polar Night Energy and Vatajankoski, an energy utility based in Western Finland, have together constructed a sand-based thermal energy storage.
It is the world's first commercial solution to store electricity in the sand as heat to be used in a district heating network.

India's Tata Motors wants to sell 50,000 EVs by end of fiscal year
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/indi … 08290.html

The push toward EVs follows a national plan to ensure that up to 30% of total passenger car sales in India are electric by 2030, up from about 1% today. E-scooters and e-bikes will account for 80% of two-wheeler sales, up from 2% today. Given the Indian government's high import duties on EVs, getting citizens to make the switch to electric will largely depend on the success of local production.

Electric Scooters Look Increasingly Capable of Lowering Road Emissions
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … -emissions

Oregon researchers find that placing agrivoltaic installations along highways to power EV charging stations can reduce both carbon emissions and range anxiety.
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/05/ … ivoltaics/

US: Ford EV Sales Increased 77% In June 2022: Over 1,800 F-150 Lightnings Sold
https://insideevs.com/news/596347/us-fo … june-2022/

China's Warren Buffett-backed BYD has dethroned Tesla as the world's largest electric vehicle maker, selling 77,000 more cars so far in 2022
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinas-warre … 07754.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-06 10:11:13)

kbd512 · 2022-07-06 10:20:08

Mars_B4_Moon,

Batteries are electro-chemical devices. A device that operates purely on heat is NOT A BATTERY. It is a form of energy storage, as is gasoline, as is water pumped uphill and then allowed to fall back down said hill using gravity, or very cold cryogenic liquids that are also forced through a turbine as they expand while heating up, or flywheels, or capacitors. As I said before, these people are "battery crazy". It's silly marketing nonsense directed at ignorant people who don't know the basic definitions of words. This is cheerleading nonsense.

Calliban · 2022-07-06 11:55:01

Storing energy as heat in sand, rock or hot water, is a more promissing option than chemical batteries in many applications. A cubic metre of quartz, heated to 500°C, will store about 800kWh of thermal energy. That is an energy density comparable to electrochemical systems. The difference is that rock and sand are things that you dig out of the ground in almost infinite quantity. We are never likely to run out and embodied energy is very low.

Thermal energy storage works well where heat is the final energy application. It can work acceptably well to store electric power if recovery is in combined heat and power mode. In a house, you could use a small steam engine to recover power from stored heat in hot sand. Maybe 20-30% of energy would be recovered as mechanical or electrical power and 70-80% as hot water. Provided you have a use for the hot water, like baths and showers, then this is a workably efficient solution.

A vehicle could be powered by stored heat as well. Such a solution might be workable for a short range. It is generally less efficient in terms of energy recovery. But such a system would have no real resource limitations. Trains and coaster ships could be powered in this way.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-06 12:01:56)

Terraformer · 2022-07-06 14:45:03

Low grade heat is also the most abundant form of energy on this planet, and the dominant domestic use. Heat pumps are the most talked about at the moment, but even a flat plate solar collector on a sunny day can reach 60 celcius. That's enough for hot water and heating, if it can be stored. Far more efficient use of solar than PV is.

SpaceNut · 2022-07-06 20:43:18

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-12 10:49:09

Tesla Considers Building a Lithium Refinery for EV Batteries in Texas

https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesl … 022-09-09/

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#1 2018-06-10 07:12:28

Musk Talks Batteries

#2 2018-06-10 09:03:26

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#3 2018-06-10 20:16:44

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#4 2021-07-28 10:28:14

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#5 2021-07-28 18:59:40

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#6 2021-07-30 15:48:00

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#7 2021-07-30 20:12:17

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#8 2021-07-31 17:29:14

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#9 2021-08-01 04:22:17

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#10 2021-08-01 08:22:22

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#11 2021-09-27 20:38:49

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#12 2021-09-28 09:10:43

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#13 2021-09-28 10:13:58

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#14 2022-06-29 06:32:48

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#15 2022-06-29 09:07:56

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#16 2022-07-06 10:09:55

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#17 2022-07-06 10:20:08

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#18 2022-07-06 11:55:01

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#19 2022-07-06 14:45:03

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#20 2022-07-06 20:43:18

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

#21 2022-09-12 10:49:09

Re: Musk Talks Batteries

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