Politics

RobertDyck · 2018-04-04 21:22:34

Palomar7 wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
Do you realize how cold a Manitoba winter is?
No. Growing up in northern USA was bad enough, lol.

I'm talking about the border with North Dakota, so it's basically northern North Dakota. Where did you grow up?

SpaceNut · 2018-04-08 17:13:51

2017, the Trump sons' travel has been somewhat curtailed, with just one other international trip to India for Donald Trump Jr.
Ivanka and Jared Kushner recently took the Trump Organization aircraft to Wyoming for a getaway with the extended Kushner family. The local mayor of Cheyenne, Wyoming, was invited onto the plane and posted pictures to Twitter. CBS News previously reported that the extended Trump family vacation to Aspen, Colorado, during last year's spring break cost more than $300,000 in taxpayer funds for security costs.
President Trump's sons' visit to Dubai this week has costed taxpayers a minimum of $73,000 in security costs, according to government purchase orders describe the costs for United States Secret Service agents to stay at hotels close to the Trump property and car service for the trip listed as being from March 26 through April 8. Eric and Donald Trump Jr. traveled to Dubai to spend time with the Trump Organization's Middle East business partner Hussain Sajwani and his family. The trip is for the family business and not related to any government work.

None of this should be born by my tax dollars ever as this is for personal activity.

kbd512 · 2018-04-09 17:37:37

SpaceNut wrote:

None of this should be born by my tax dollars ever as this is for personal activity.

SpaceNut,

I guess you're unfamiliar with how Secret Service protection works, but the Secret Service is duty bound to protect the children of the President. The President's children are not under house arrest simply because their father holds office. Even so, the threats to their lives are very real. Similarly, former President Obama's children were protected by about a dozen men with guns when they attended private school while he was in office. It's clear you don't like that because you don't like President Trump, but you never uttered a word about the amount of money used to protect former President Obama's children or extended family.

elderflower · 2018-04-11 06:07:54

The disease is not confined to the US. Britain has it too. In spades.
The only solution I can see is to fund all political activity by the state, and only the state. Then politics will have to answer to the electorate and not to corporate or rich individual sponsors.

SpaceNut · 2018-04-11 21:35:47

Here is something else that is long overdue Drug testing plan considered for some food stamp recipients

GW Johnson · 2018-04-13 08:39:10

Kbd512:

Actually, I pretty much agree with most of your last posting. I pretty much feel the same way about most of those things.

One example is the gun thing. Most of the available data (there's quite a lot at Motherjones.com by the way) indicates that the usual gun control proposals won't work or in the case of the assault weapons ban, didn't work. The real problem is undefended gun-free zones, which are sitting-duck targets that draw in the crazies and the terrorists.

Don't get me wrong, there are perfectly-good reasons to have gun-free zones. Educational and worship venues are but two. Better discourse obtains when everyone feels free to voice their mind, without fear of somebody getting too angry and pulling a weapon.

The 19th century frontier town experience defined exactly what you need to defend your gun-free zone: (1) trained peace officers adequately armed, and (2) a response time under 1 minute. Teachers have more than enough to do without being guards, too, I've done that job myself. And no concealed-carry training will ever be real peace-officer training.

Just hire a vet and equip him with an M-16: if they were an MP, you can skip the peace officer training. Two or three or more if your campus is large. Simple as that. Same thing applies to churches, too. Bound to be a vet willing to do guard duty in the congregation somewhere.

The other thing that might help is banning the trigger cranks and bump stocks that turn semi-automatic weapons into effective machine guns. The old 1934 ban on machine guns in civilian hands was effective, and still could be, if we do that.

Beyond that, I see little or no point to clip size limits and similar nonsense. Too easy to change clips in about 2 seconds. But we ought to have a graduated response to indications of mental issues. Court judgments of insanity is the wrong standard, we've already seen it. So far, the crazies still far outnumber the terrorists.

But I really do want to keep the Second Amendment. The armed population is what was supposed to make the threat of revolution credible, so that government would behave better. That is EXACTLY why it was put there when the Constitution was presented for ratification. The founders wouldn't sign, without it and the other nine. The big city dwellers on the two coasts seem to have forgotten those truths. Most of us here in the middle of the country, especially those of us living rural like me, understand very well.

That being said, I take heart from the schoolkids marching to get something done. They may be wrong about more gun control, but it would appear one outcome might be that graduated response to mental issues. That would be a good thing. In the debate that will ensue from this, perhaps the school guard thing might get better addressed, too. We'll see.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2018-04-13 13:13:16)

kbd512 · 2018-04-13 15:39:44

GW,

My point about GFZ's is that the moment a criminal brings a gun into a GFZ, it's no longer a GFZ. It's impossible to placate the sensitivities of everyone and therefore we shouldn't try to do that. Inanimate objects that are not intrinsically dangerous do not need to be confiscated from people who have broken no laws, no matter how irate our snowflakes are that someone has a "high-powered fully semi-automatic AR15 with a 30 round mag-clip with heat seeking bullets" or whatever other nonsense people who know nothing whatsoever about firearms take offense to.

The following isn't directed at you, it's just general education for the firearms-ignorant liberal masses:

First things first. All firearms were designed to kill and all of them are capable of killing people. There is no such thing as a "firearm specifically designed to kill lots of people". Firearms are designed to kill and the numbers of resultant deaths are far more directly correlated with the circumstances of a shooting and the skill of the shooter than what type of firearm was used. Death is not less final or hurtful whether you were killed with a single shot .22 rimfire handgun or a .50 caliber machine gun. Dead is dead, period. Weapon used is irrelevant, unless you we have the technology to bring people back from the dead if they are killed with single shot muskets versus "fully semi-automatic high caliber assault weapons".

95% of civilians murdered with a firearm in the US are killed with handguns. Approximately 2/3rds of all firearms deaths (about 35,000 in an average year) are suicides or accidents and approximately 1/3rd are homicides, either justified (2,000 on average) or unjustified (10,000 to 12,000 on average) uses of deadly force. Rifles and shotguns of any description, from single shot to semi-automatic, are used in homicides that kill approximately 500 Americans every year. Approximately 275 to 350 Americans die in what we define as mass shootings, most of which are committed with handguns.

Assault is a type of behavior, not a type of weapon. Any object used to assault (injure) someone else is an assault weapon, whether it's a baseball bat or a cannon. Any kitchen knife, hammer, crowbar, baseball bat, handgun, shotgun, or rifle used to assault someone else is, by legal definition, an "assault with a deadly weapon". The "assault weapon" terminology comes from everyone's favorite bad guys, the Nazis. The Nazis designed a fully automatic carbine, the StG-44 that fired a cartridge substantially less powerful than their standard issue bolt action Kar-98 infantry rifles but more powerful than their standard issue 9mm pistol ammunition. Hitler or his bubbas (we're not really sure which it was) called this new carbine a "sturmgewehr", literally translated as a "storm rifle", but later translated as an "assault rifle" in order to sound like something recognizable to the English speaking world. It had a rate of fire ranging between 550 and 600 rounds per minute and used 30 round detachable box magazines. The Nazis also made a StuG-III self-propelled howitzer, literally translated as a "storm cannon", along with a variety of other weapons with "storm" in their nomenclature. I believe one could validly say that the Nazis were a "storm happy" or "assault happy" lot.

The "assault rifle" designation was later used to refer to fully automatic rifles firing ammunition more powerful than common military pistol ammunition and less powerful than typical military rifle ammunition was during the first half of the 20th century. The "AR" in the AR15 nomenclature stands for Armalite Rifle, not "Assault Rifle". The rights to the name "AR15" and the technology patent associated with it were later purchased by Colt's Firearms Manufacturing. There are a slew of military and civilian firearms that fire the same ammunition as the AR15 prototype that lead to the creation of the military M16 rifles or M4 carbines. Many use the same types of magazines. Some of the semi-automatic civilian AR15 pattern firearms even bear a striking resemblance to their fully automatic military counterparts. However, the defining characteristic separating semi-automatic civilian clones of fully automatic military weapons is the dramatic variation in achievable rates of fire.

I've owned and used several Colt AR15's over the course of more than a decade. Apart from a few minor burns from hot brass, none have ever physically injured anyone because they're not intrinsically dangerous and I follow the basic "firearms safety rules" ("prudent firearms handling rules" for people like me who don't believe in anything you can't throw in a bucket, like "safety" or "god", for example). Most liberals falsely believe that firearms cosmetics or appearances affect lethality, operation, or the personal proclivities of their owners. Since they're completely ignorant about how firearms actually work, they substitute personal ignorance or whatever absurdities they've seen in Hollyweird movies for actual firearms knowledge.

A Ruger Mini-14 has the exact same barrel length, fires the exact same ammunition, and operates in the exact same way as the dreaded Colt AR15. Both firearms shoot or fire one 5.56mm (.223 for Muricans) cartridge per trigger pull, automatically eject the expended cartridge casing, and then automatically reload the chamber with a fresh / unfired / unexpended cartridge from the magazine. That just means they're semi-automatic magazine-fed rifles or carbines (a carbine is just a "short rifle"). The muzzle energy or "power" of the bullet at the muzzle is nearly identical to a .44 Magnum fired from a long barreled hunting revolver like a Ruger Redhawk. The .223 bullet has better ballistics or aerodynamics than the .44 bullet, so it retains more of its initial energy to greater distances than a .44 is capable of.

The Mini-14 is legal in California whereas the AR15 is not. As described above, there is no difference whatsoever in lethality between the two. The Mini-14 has a brown wooden stock that looks more like a traditional hunting rifle, whereas the AR15 typically uses black plastic. Everyone knows that the color (brown versus black) and type of material (wood versus plastic) that you hold on to when you fire the weapon makes all the difference in the world (to people who have no business even talking about guns on account of their complete ignorance of the subject).

Neither the Mini-14 nor the AR15 are capable of fully automatic fire from the factory because they lack the sear (sometimes called an "auto sear" because, as one might deduce, this is the component that permits fully automatic firing) and disconnector parts for fully automatic operation. A fully automatic firearm, unlike a semi-automatic firearm, will continue to feed and fire cartridges as long as the trigger is pulled or held back and the magazine contains another fresh cartridge that the reciprocating bolt can pick up and load into the chamber.

The cyclic rates of fire associated with fully automatic M16 rifles and M4 carbines that the military uses range from 750 to 900 rounds per minute. Some appear very similar to civilian owned AR15 pattern rifles or carbines, but they're very different in their maximum rates of fire. At those rates, a fully loaded 30 round magazine lasts between 2 and 2.4 seconds. Most of the bullets fired get shot at the sky and few actually hit the intended target unless the range is very short and the shooter is very well trained. As a result of experience in Viet Nam, most models in service are limited to 3 round bursts using a specially designed sear and disconnector mechanism for that reason. A well trained shooter with a semi-automatic AR15 and a good quality trigger might achieve a maximum firing rate of approximately half that of the fully automatic M16 or M4 before fatigue quickly sets in after 1 to 2 magazines have been expended while the shooter is attempting to fire as fast as possible. Accuracy and rate of fire typically have inverse relationships. As the rate of fire increases, accuracy typically decreases.

The bottom line is that ignorant people with ignorant ideas make ignorant laws that never have the desired results, assuming the desired result is to decrease murders rather than just take things from people who've never broken any laws.

Anyway, I'll end my little firearms education PSA here. Hopefully someone who is ignorant about how semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms operate will read it and understand something they didn't understand before, perhaps coming across as slightly less ignorant when they argue for something that they still have no practical knowledge of.

SpaceNut · 2018-04-13 16:15:02

Gw and Kbd512 both assessments of guns are very much true. Having been brought up as a teen taking the NRA gun training before getting a hunting license, learning gun safety while in Boy Scouts at summer camping.. it the persons use of any gun that makes it a danger to others. Something learned about hunting was anything more than 3 to 5 shots means you aught to not be hunting if you can not hit the target in that few shots.
Now for soft targets aka gun free zones we will need control by armed police guns in place that will react and not wait to act. sensing equipment that notifies of possible weapon to police and silient to the person with one with a further recheck as the zone gets closer to what we want to pertect. The idea of clear backpacks, screenings for anything that is a typical weapon can happen further out to limit it get to the school zone.
It will not be just a single action that will be used to be a success in protect but a collection of many types that will come the closest to do it.
Closing the loop on lost weapons, weapons that are stolen, guns tossed out by someone that does not want it any more, guns from a member of the family that has pasted these all need to be found collected and destroyed by melting them down.

SpaceNut · 2018-04-13 20:26:35

On another note I did watch the Trump televised announcement on Friday that precision strikes on Syria have been launched in concert with British and French forces. The U.S. military, joined by its counterparts in France and Britain, launched a sweeping missile strike against Syria on Friday night, making good on a series of threats from President Trump prompted by the Middle Eastern country’s latest chemical attack on its own people. The President Trump said that the United States carried out a missile attack in Syria on Thursday in response to the Syrian government's deadly chemical weapons attack. The United States and Russia escalated a war of words over Syria on Wednesday, with President Trump warning that U.S. airstrikes “will be coming” despite Russia’s pledge to shoot down American missiles aimed at its ally. Russia needs to decide on wether they will fight for people that have been wronged by these chemical weapons or pick the course of conflict....

"To Iran and to Russia, I ask: what kind of a nation wants to be associated with the mass murder of innocent men, women and children?" Trump said. "The nations of the world can be judged by the friends they keep. No nation can succeed in the long run by promoting brutal tyrants and murderous dictators."

This is an action that I will agree with and that the allies show we are not the worlds police force....

Terraformer · 2018-04-14 03:56:01

We're sure *acting* like the worlds police force. Not just that, but rogue cops as well.

No nation can succeed in the long run by promoting brutal tyrants and murderous dictators.

*sells billions of dollars of weaponry to Saudi Arabia*

kbd512 · 2018-04-15 14:31:18

If anyone here is wondering what makes a bullet fired from an AR15 "more deadly" than a prototypical handgun bullet, it has nothing to do with the weapon and everything to do with the velocity achieved by the bullet at the muzzle end of the barrel and bullet construction of commonly available ammunition sourced from US military cartridge manufacturing plants, overseas military cartridge manufacturing plants, domestic commercial cartridge manufacturing plants, and individual civilian marksmen who load and/or reload cartridges as a hobby.

There are two wounding mechanisms that bullets exhibit:

The first is common to both high velocity rifle bullets and lower velocity pistol bullets or shotgun pellets. It's known as tissue crush depth. It's a measure of how deeply a projectile penetrates and how much tissue is destroyed in the process. The volume of tissue destroyed is typically a function of the diameter of the bullet. The bore diameter is the "caliber" or "gauge" of a firearm barrel's bore and the term is synonymous with the diameter of the bore of a weapon that fired the bullet.

Nearly all projectiles are ever so slightly larger than the diameter of the bore to obturate the bore during firing. Exceptions are mostly limited to projectiles fired from muskets. The force of firing expands the base of musket projectiles to engage the rifling and obturate the bore of the weapon. A "high caliber" weapon merely indicates that the bore diameter is large in comparison to some relative measure. Nearly all AR15's would thus be classified as "low caliber" weapons because nearly all of them have 22 caliber bores and nearly all muskets would be classified as "high caliber", or at least "substantially higher caliber" weapons because their bore diameters typically start at 40 caliber and go up from there. Many hunting muskets are 50 caliber, for example. 22 caliber is at or near the lower limit for most common modern firearms, although a few are even smaller than that. A 22 caliber bore equates to a bullet that's just over 5mm (less than a quarter of an inch) in diameter.

The term "BATFE" refers to the US federal law enforcement agency called the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives. BATFE regulates manufacture, transfer, sale, and use of firearms and explosives within the US at the federal or national level. Specifically, that agency regulates minimum firearms barrel length for rifles and shotguns, the maximum permissible caliber of a firearm, machine guns / fully automatic firearms, sound suppressors / silencers, explosive devices, and unusual types of firearms that do not appear to be recognizable as firearms like so-called pen guns or firearms that resemble other non-firearms type objects.

Apart from non-weapon signaling devices, shotguns, and a limited variety of larger caliber rifles for hunting dangerous game, the BATFE limit on bore diameter for firearms that aren't classified as "destructive devices" is 12.7mm or .50 caliber (one half inch in diameter). Firearms with larger bore diameters typically require approval of special BATFE paper work and incur a $200 tax stamp. You literally receive a stamp (like a postage stamp from the Post Office, except it says "two hundred dollars" on it) affixed to a signed government form or document from the BATFE. Applications for approval requires paperwork that includes finger printing and an enhanced background check.

A secondary wounding effect that is also relatively common to both low and high velocity projectiles would be how many smaller pieces a bullet breaks apart into if it fragments, either by design or from forces imparted to the bullet by the target, along with any expansion of the bullet inside a target. Low velocity bullets, common in handgun ammunition, typically attempt to limit fragmentation so the entire mass of the projectile moves through the target. Some bullets, especially those used for common defense use handgun ammunition, expand or "mushroom" upon impact and are colloquially known as "hollow points". The expansion of a "hollow point" bullet increases the diameter of the cavity left by the bullet after it crushes the tissue in its flight path. Bullets fired from small arms do not "cut you to ribbons", nor do they "explode" inside you, but some can and will expand or fragment by design or by force imparted from striking the target, as previously stated, depending on how they're constructed. Bullets can also tumble from gyroscopic instability and some will destroy more tissue than they otherwise would have, but the actual wounding effects from the tumbling are unpredictable in nature. Sometimes tumbling will kill and sometimes it will cause vital organs to be missed entirely.

High velocity bullets, far more common to rifles than handguns, also have a tertiary wounding effect known as hydrostatic shock. Bullets that travel at velocities substantially above the speed of sound can damage or destroy inelastic tissues like the liver or spleen or brain in the tissue surrounding the actual wound cavity created by the bullet, merely from the nearby passage of the bullet. This effect is much less pronounced in elastic tissues like muscles, but it's a feature common to high velocity projectiles. Virtually all common military and hunting rifle cartridges (.223 Remington / 5.56mm NATO, .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester / 7.62mm NATO, .30-06 Springfield, etc) produce hydrostatic shock at close-range hunting distances to one degree or another. The most popular hunting rifle cartridges are typically military cartridges with bullets that produce specific or enhanced wounding effects on game animals. The .223, .308, and .30-06 military cartridges only continue to gain popularity amongst hunters and target shooters, more than half a century after those cartridges were originally developed for military purposes.

The following description explains what .223 Remington / 5.56mm M193 pattern ammunition does when fired from any firearm with a sufficiently long barrel (14.5" or longer barrel is typically required, as any shorter barrel would cause the velocity produced to be insufficient for some of the wounding effects described below to reliably occur), which would include common civilian owned AR15's:

M193 is the US military designation for a specific type of 5.56mm x 45mm ammunition that contains a 55 grain (roughly 3.56 grams) projectile comprised of a copper jacket that fully encloses the ogives / points / tips of the bullet and a lead core. The M193's projectile is nominally 55 grains in weight, 5.7mm in diameter, and 19.3mm in length, but this varies slightly from bullet to bullet and batch to batch. I don't nerd out over this stuff the way reloaders do. As long as there are no obvious issues like projectile setback (bad bullet crimp), improperly seated primers (primer not flush with the case head), or severe denting of the casing, I'll use it. It is commonly or colloquially known as a "full metal jacket" or "ball" ammunition. These "ball" cartridges are distinguished from M855 "penetrator" ("green tip") or M995 "armor piercing" ("black tip") or M196 / M856 "tracer" ("red tip" or "orange tip") cartridges by bullet ogives devoid of any colored paint applied. The cartridge casing headstamps may contain labels such as "LC 17". LC stands for "Lake City Army Ammunition Plant" and the "17" would indicate it was manufactured in 2017.

Federal manages Lake City as a subcontractor of Orbital ATK and Orbital ATK currently holds the contract issued by the US Army. It was run by Remington Arms from its establishment until the mid 1980's, then Olin (Winchester) took over until early 2000's, and now ATK (Orbital ATK) runs it. I don't know the exact dates, but these are military contracts so there is a paper trail for anyone who has more time and curiosity than I do. I use Winchester or Remington if Federal / Lake City is unavailable. The only reason for that is cost. The quality is slightly better, but the commercial ammo from Remington and Winchester costs more. I've seen friends and acquaintances use cheaper foreign made ammo from South Korea, Brazil, or Russia, but I'm unfamiliar with their products so I don't personally use ammo from overseas sources.

The bullet expelled from the M193 5.56mm cartridge upon firing leaves the muzzle of a firearm with a 16 inch or longer barrel (16" is the minimum legal length for the barrels of firearms classified as rifles, per BATFE regulations) at approximately 3,000 to 3,200 fps (feet per second). Actual velocities vary a bit by temperature, atmospheric pressure, and other variables, but that's roughly correct. That's just shy of Mach 3. When the bullet impacts a solid target above 2,500 fps, especially above 2,700 fps, it tends to yaw violently shortly after entering the target since the gyroscopic force imparted to the bullet by the rifling in the bore of the barrel is grossly insufficient to stabilize that bullet in a medium (like water or flesh, for example) that's more than a thousand times as dense as our atmosphere. After the initial upset from the violent yawing, the bullet tumbles end-over-end until the forces involved cause it to break apart or fragment at a weak point in the bullet's construction known as the cannelure. The cannelure is what's used to crimp the bullet into the brass cartridge casing to prevent it from moving forward or backward in the casing, which could cause dangerous overpressure conditions when fired. This results in two or three large pieces, and a number of mostly insignificant smaller pieces, traveling in various separate directions inside the target. On the entry side of the target, you'll see a tiny little hole approximately the same diameter as the bullet. Dependent upon how thick the target is, the exit wound can be big enough for a grown man to stick several fingers inside. Most of the damage inside the target remains unseen unless you're in an operating room or it's an animal you just shot and you cut it open with your knife. Either way, it's pretty messy. The fragments, especially the copper jacket, can be razor sharp. It's advisable to use gloves if you're fishing out the fragments the animal you just shot. Most people just discard that chunk of meat because they don't fancy biting into a shard of metal.

The terminal ballistic effects of M193 is exactly the same, whether it's fired from a single shot, pump action, lever action, bolt action, semi-automatic, fully automatic rifle, or belt-fed machine gun. Barrel length determines muzzle velocity, thus how much damage is done and to what distances from the muzzle before bullet velocity crosses the 2,700 fps threshold. The weapon used is completely irrelevant in regard to the damage done. It either has a barrel length sufficient to produce 2,700 fps or greater or it doesn't. The damage done by pistol length AR barrels is greatly diminished for that reason and is roughly equivalent to what could be expected from a 9mm NATO carbine at close range, but with better penetration from greater velocity.

The military now uses M855 or M855A1 instead of M193 and the wounding characteristics of those cartridge's differently constructed bullets differ somewhat from M193. Most penetrator or armor piercing ammunition types, of which M855 and M855A1 are but two examples, produce wounds more consistent with what a 5.56mm diameter screwdriver shaft would do if it were stabbed straight through the target unless the target is wide enough and close enough (velocity is still key here) for tumbling to begin. M855 was designed for 20" M16 barrels, whereas M855A1 was designed for shorter barrels found in M4 carbines. The M855 bullet would not achieve velocities required for tumbling and fragmentation from shorter barrels at significant distances from the muzzle, so M855A1 was recently introduced to counteract that problem using faster burning powder, thus more pressure, thus more velocity, at the expense of weapon life.

At closer ranges, projectiles from both of those cartridges will also yaw inside the target and tumble if the target is wide enough. If the bullet fragments, it's generally two large fragments because the core is hardened steel followed by lead (M855) or copper (M855A1). Some degree of jacket separation is also fairly common. All M193, which is definitely not armor piercing, will go through both sides (front and back) of a standard Police issue Level IIIA soft body armor vest, as will all more powerful rifle cartridges common to hunting rifles, most of which have at least double the kinetic energy of M193 (1,200 ft-lbs for .223 / 5.56mm NATO vs 2,400 ft-lbs for .308 / 7.62mm NATO). Armor penetration is mostly a function of velocity and sectional density. Rifle bullets typically have substantially more of it than handgun bullets, so rifle bullets typically penetrate armor that would stop handgun bullets. The Germans also made a 7.62mm NATO cartridge with a thin jacket that would yaw and break at the cannelure, just like M193. The bullets from those cartridges were just shy of triple the weight and double the kinetic energy of M193.

Well, there it is. A fairly basic explanation of what's going on with the most common type of ammo used by civilians in their AR15's (because it's the cheapest and most widely available) and a little bit of background about other types of common 5.56mm ammunition.

Palomar7 · 2018-04-16 06:10:56

There sure are LOTS of knife/machete attacks in England.

Yes, I know there's gun violence here (currently it seems knife attacks there outnumber gun incidents here).

New York City natives residing in London are getting scared. THAT'S BAD!

Last edited by Palomar7 (2018-04-16 06:13:44)

GW Johnson · 2018-04-16 08:41:48

Violence is due to many factors. One often overlooked is simple population density. Putting too many rats in one box leads to rats killing and eating each other and their own young. Sound familiar?

GW

Palomar7 · 2018-04-16 10:11:20

GW Johnson wrote:

Violence is due to many factors. One often overlooked is simple population density. Putting too many rats in one box leads to rats killing and eating each other and their own young. Sound familiar?
GW

Yep.

And I must say (not gloating in the least)...here in USA you're (currently) most at risk in a public school. Then "the workplace."

It seems in the UK (especially London), you're at risk. Period. Continually.

An average of 1 machete attack every 90 minutes. :-o

Six people stabbed within an hour's time recently (unsure if via machete or "mere" knife).

I am not in a public school nor a workplace (I work at home). I'm relatively safe.

But if I were wandering around London (and other major cities) as a tourist? Apparently I'm at extreme and ongoing risk for being stabbed, mugged, acid attack.

Can't fathom it. It's bad enough here!

Palomar7 · 2018-04-16 10:38:48

p.s. - what brought this up was coverage on "Good Morning America" (husband watches it) of the upcoming wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. While I wish this couple the best of a happy future, I'm (unfortunately not too stunned) at the attitude of GMA and Andrew Morton, that it's just another day in Britain, whose citizens are gearing up for a big celebration.

Comparisons to Princess Diana.

As if this is the 1980s!

I remember (also via GMA, which I did watch as a teenager then) upfront published concerns that the IRA might try to disrupt Charles and Diana's 1981 wedding. Street "lamps" on the routes were checked for bombs. Etc.

But in 2018's London all is merry and bright for a festive wedding!

Sorta blows my mind. I guess terrorism is only to be mentioned and feared if it's Irish terrorists?

Can we say DENIAL?

Last edited by Palomar7 (2018-04-16 10:40:48)

Terraformer · 2018-04-16 10:56:51

Actually, I don't think you are that likely to be shot in school, when you consider how many schoolchildren America has (there's surely at least >50 million 6-18 year olds?). How many people were killed in school shootings last year? The numbers are distorted somewhat because a lot of them are murder-suicides of 1-2 people, and while the death of the murderer is still a tragedy, I don't think it should be counted when it comes to calculating the in-school homicide rate. Then some of the fatalities occur outside the school, with the 'school shooter' being someone who was chased onto the school property by the police... according to the Daily Wire, discounting these gives a figure of 7 deaths in 2017 in schools. Combined with a school population of 51 million, then the murder rate in schools is 0.014 per 100,000. By comparison, the US as a whole has a murder rate of 4.9, according to Wikipedia. Obviously mass shootings distort these, and make it jump wildly from year to year, but I don't think they make it any more than an order of magnitude higher. If an average of 70 people are killed each year in US schools, then they have a homicide rate of 0.14 per 100,000, making them significantly safer than Japan (0.31 per 100,000). The chances of being murdered in school in America is very, very low, but school shootings make the news and the news makes people paranoid.

The UK isn't that dangerous. It's mainly just the big cities, but then that's always been the case. Stay out of London, though.

If people want to kill, it's not hard to find a way. I'm surprised America hasn't seen any chemical terrorism, given the easy availability of chlorine.

kbd512 · 2018-04-16 12:05:00

Some here are probably wondering why a civilian would want an AR-15 and what they're good for, so I'll cover some of the basic reasons that AR-15's are amongst the most popular rifles in America, right behind the Remington 700 bolt action hunting rifles.

1. AR-15's with 16" barrels are ergonomic, lightweight, compact, low-recoil carbines that can reliably kill everything from small game to deer sized game animals with the right ammunition or caliber conversion. There are caliber conversion kits for available for .22LR rimfire ammunition for low cost practice and taking small game animals. There are bolt-action conversion kits for cartridges all the way up to .50 BMG (the cartridge fired by the US military's .50 caliber heavy machine guns). There are also pump-action conversion kits popular in the UK and California. Some even fire shotgun shells or signaling flares. A newer but very popular caliber offering that uses the original magazines and bolt, requiring only a barrel change, is called the .300 Blackout. That cartridge was intended to mimic the ballistics of the 7.62mm x 39mm Russian ammunition used by the AK-47. It's very popular amongst pig hunters who aren't happy with the accuracy, weight, and ergonomics of the semi-automatic AK-47 clones. In short, the AR-15 is a very versatile firearm that does not require its owner to purchase an entirely new rifle for different types of shooting.

The AR-15 has two major components or subassemblies. The first is an upper receiver group that consists of the barrel, bolt, and bolt carrier, and hand guard. The second is the lower receiver group consisting of the fire control mechanism, pistol grip, and butt stock. The two halves are joined together using two captured push pins in the lower receiver. The lower receiver is the part of the rifle that is considered to be the "firearm" by BATFE. All manufacture, sale, and transfer of lower receivers is thus regulated by BATFE. The upper receiver group is just gun parts and is not regulated by BATFE, except that the barrel has to be at least 16 inches in length for any firearm considered to be a rifle or 18 inches for a shotgun and the caliber is limited to 12.7mm or one half inch in diameter. A rifle or shotgun is defined as a firearm that has a shoulder stock attached for firing the firearm from the shoulder. Some AR-15's are even configured as over-sized pistols. The pistols are mostly popular with people who intend to convert the weapons to short barreled rifles after receiving their paperwork / tax stamp to do so from BATFE, whereupon they're permitted to attach shoulder stocks to firearms with barrels shorter than 16 inches in length. These weapons give up a lot of the performance of the ammunition, but are much easier to store in vehicles.

2. The accuracy of the AR15 is such that it's now relatively uncommon for people using traditional military rifles like the M1 or M14 to win matches between 100 and 600 yards if their fellow competitors are using AR-15's. Apart from bolt action rifles, very few other types of commonly available semi-automatic rifles can match the accuracy of the AR-15 for equivalent cost and weight. The low recoil, light weight, consistent cycling of the action, superb trigger options, and low cost of practice ammunition all weigh heavily in favor of the AR-15's design.

3. The AR-15 was the first firearm designed by an aerospace engineering firm that was mass manufactured. Subsequently, there has been an incredible amount of engineering effort invested into the AR-15, largely a result of small companies that took the basic design and adapted it to a military or civilian customer's specific requirements. I'm unaware of any other small arms design that has nearly as much money, time, and brain power incorporated into its design, to include the AK-47.

The proof is in the proliferation of design concepts originally applied to the AR-15. Russian special forces now use AR-15 adjustable stocks and Picatinny rails (Picatinny rail tech actually pre-dates WWI, but wasn't common on small arms until the AR-15) on their AK-47's, for example. There's a good reason for that. No other solution they've tried to come up with has been as cost effective or as suitable to their mission requirements. Even the communist Chinese manufacture and issue AR-15's. No new rifle design has bested the AR-15 in general performance for a given level of cost. There are other designs that may be more reliable under certain conditions, may be lighter, or may be less expensive to manufacture, but there's always a substantial trade-off. More reliable designs are heavier and/or more expensive to manufacture. Lighter or less expensive designs lack the AR-15's battle proven durability.

Extensive testing has illustrated the reliability flaws of designs like the AK-47, FAL, G-3, M-1 or M-14, and other more compact weapons like the Steyr AUG and IWI Tavor. None of those designs have bested the AR-15 when exposed to heavy mud and sand simply because the AR-15 has an action that makes ingress of debris more difficult. Drop an AR-15 in the mud and you'll likely be able to fire at least one magazine through the weapon. Do that same test with an AK-47 and the bolt may not even go into battery after the chambered cartridge is fired. Much hay was made about the AR-15's unreliability during the Viet Nam War, but those issues turned out to be a series of mistakes made by both the ammunition and firearms manufacturers as cost cutting measures or deliberate sabotage by the US military in tests to "prove" that the new rifles didn't work. Initially, the rifles didn't even have a clean kit issued.

The US military continually reviews emerging small arms designs for equipping its soldiers. Every competition held thus far has produced weapons that were either heavier and/or more expensive or less durable. Weight matters greatly when you actually have to carry something on a 24/7 basis and cost matters when you have to procure millions of weapons and spare parts. You can always spend more money to obtain better weapons, but it turns out that there's a limit to what any country, even the US, will spend on a simple infantry rifle.

Contrary to popular belief, frequently cleaning the AR-15 is not required. However, the AR-15 requires constant lubrication, more so than other popular designs like the AK-47. Once it's properly lubricated it tend's to cycle without issue, no matter how dirty it gets. Anything from dirty motor oil from a truck to bacon grease (yes people have actually done that and it actually worked) is suitable and has been used at least once in combat simply because it was what was available at the time. Recent advancements in metal coatings technologies have even made the use of lubricants unnecessary and some of these technologies were developed specifically for the AR-15.

4. In a home defense situation, the M193 ammo has very desirable external and internal ballistics characteristics. The bullet is very light, so it rapidly loses energy with distance. If it strikes a stud in a wall, a brick, or a cinder block, M193 will quickly fragment and stop. Heavier handgun bullets like 9mm and .45 ACP tend to power through those common building materials and retain lethal energy on the other side. It's true that M193 will penetrate more dry wall than 9mm or .45 ACP, but it also has a tendency to fragment or stop entirely if it strikes more solid objects. Again, the bullet is very light so it gives up energy easily and gives up more energy than heavier handgun bullets or shotgun slugs. This becomes important if you miss the target. If the bullet does hit the target, then it carries the energy equivalent to a .44 Magnum.

Although still common, the idea of facing a single home invader like a cat burglar or drug addict is rapidly becoming a thing of the past as criminals have learned to coordinate their activities with like minded individuals to steal cash, jewelry, electronics, firearms, vehicles, and other valuable property from home owners. Unlike most criminals of the past, many of these hyper violent street thugs will stay long after they have what they supposedly came for to rape, torture, and/or murder their victims. This is where the AR-15 really shines.

Recall that the M193 bullet has the power of a .44 Magnum. All similarities end there. The recoil generated is low and does not move the carbine entirely off target. Most people I've seen lack the physical strength and skill to hold a .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum on target and rapidly deliver two or more shots at a target. It's difficult for me to do, especially while moving, and I have many thousands of rounds through various types of pistols and revolvers over and above what most gun owners do. A typical .44 Magnum is $1 per cartridge and .357 Magnum is not much cheaper than that. A typical 5.56mm M193 cartridge ranges in price from $0.25 to $0.35. You do the math on what that equates to in terms of practice and training.

The 12 gauge shotgun that Joe Biden thinks we should all own instead of AR-15's has substantially more recoil than the .44 Magnum revolver and most 12 gauge shotguns suitable for home defense are longer and heavier than an AR-15 and therefore less ergonomic. That's bad news for those who are not physically large enough to use them. I'm not home 100% of the time, so at some point my wife may have to defend herself and our children. She's not going to do it with my 12 gauge Remington 870 Police Magnum shotgun because she's not big enough and strong enough to use it effectively since it weighs almost 10 pounds with optics, weapon light, and just 15 shot shells onboard and is more than 40 inches in length. The AR-15 weighs about 6.5 pounds with optics, weapon light, and 30 rounds in the magazine and is just 32 inches in length. That may not seem like much, but because of balance or weight distribution, it's considerable. Hold a 2 pound weight close to your body and then extend your arm all the way out and hold it level with the floor to get a sense for what's going on there.

Everybody misses targets in combat, including military and policing forces, so with either the revolver or shotgun, you have a handful of chances to hit effectively and stop the threat. If you miss with either of them, it's a big deal. You only have 6 to 8 shots with a revolver or shotgun before you have to reload. Imagine making a marginal hit with a prototypical 6 shot revolver that doesn't stop the threat, missing once per target, and having to contend with 4 to 5 armed criminals who have shown up to your house at 2AM to take what you have. Police routinely miss their targets at least 50% of the time, and that includes the SWAT trained officers. Think about it. Are you better trained than they are? If not, then can you understand why you'd want extra rounds in your magazine? Ever notice that Police show up with AR-15's now instead of shotguns? Think they might be on to something there? All combat is messy and unpredictable. If you don't need 30 rounds, great. Don't use them. If you do, then you'd better have them in the magazine because most gunfights are over before the people involved have a chance to reload.

There's some misunderstanding or general ignorance about the lethality of firearms and how long it actually takes to die. A .22LR is perfectly lethal, but it might take a couple of days for someone hit with one to bleed to death internally. A round of M193 can literally destroy someone's heart and then they still have 10 to 15 seconds of conscious activity during which they may decide to return the favor and take you with them. This would be why Police don't immediately run up to people they just shot and attempt to render first aid. If they can't see their hands and whatever they had in them, then they assume the person is still armed and just waiting for the officer to walk up to them so they can shoot the officer in return.

Any criminal that needs to be shot may very well have to be shot multiple times to immediately stop them from doing whatever it was that they were doing that caused you to shoot them. Unless you shoot someone in the head, then there's a better than average chance that the criminal will go down fighting and continue to shoot back at you until they finally lose consciousness. This is real world stuff versus Hollyweird movies. People don't fly back when they've been shot with the magical shotgun, nor do they explode into a million pieces. Often times, people can be shot multiple times and continue to run around and shoot back. The FBI fatally shot a pair of bank robbers in the infamous Miami Dade shootout and they continued to move, shoot back at, and kill multiple FBI agents until they were subsequently shot multiple more times by various FBI agents. This would mean that real life combat is very violent, messy, and unpredictable.

5. Cost of ammo and training is a major factor in firearms purchasing decisions. I only regularly shoot 9mm or .38 Special and .223 / 5.56mm these days because .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .308 / 7.62mm have become so expensive as to be unaffordable for those of us who shoot on a regular basis to maintain our skills with our firearms.

Any time you purchase a firearm, you must have training and practice. It's not optional. You will not rise to the occasion. You will default to the lowest level of training that you have mastered. Promise. If you opt to purchase a revolver, pistol, or shotgun over the AR-15, then you require even more training and money to adequately use those weapons to defend yourself against an armed violent criminal or two or three, not less.

Your purchase sequence should look like this:

A. Gun safe

* for storage of the firearm and ammunition when you're not using it to discourage theft
* if the gun is not on your person, it should be in the gun safe
* only buy gun safes from US companies, as there are no reputable foreign companies that offer products suitable for this purpose
* stick with mechanical combination locks with features that basically make it necessary to destroy the safe and its contents to get inside
* I prefer the types of combination locks used by our federal government to secure classified materials
* resist the temptation to "save money" here

B. Gun

* buy whatever you feel most comfortable with using, but try different types before purchasing by renting them from a gun range
* if it doesn't fit your body or you can't use it well, then it's worthless to you, no matter how fancy or well made
* if you buy a pistol or revolver, then you need a holster (use plastic, not leather or fabric, as the plastic doesn't swell or deform from heat and perspiration; once again, this is not a beauty contest or a place to save money, it's all about simple dependable function)
* if you buy a rifle or carbine or shotgun, then you need a sling (I prefer Blue Force Gear nylon slings because they seem to have one of the best quick-adjust two-point sling designs on the market; there's a big difference between a cheap carrying strap and a proper sling)
* have at least several spare magazines for any magazine-fed firearm (you need more than one because magazines are the Achilles heel of semi-automatic firearms; most of the time they work as intended, but sometimes they don't)
* use the ammo you intend to use for self defense to ensure it functions reliably in your weapon of choice (stick with proven choices; review what law enforcement and the military use, as they don't use it for no good reason and nearly all of them require extensive testing)

C. Training

* you don't have to be a ninja to win a fight, you just have to be better than the SOB who attacked you
* that old adage that if you live by the sword, then you die by the sword, is still as true today as it was when it was first uttered, so you must accept that there is always the possibility of death or serious injury, but recognize that the unspoken corollary to that statement is that plenty of people who did not live by the sword still died by the sword because they were unwilling or unable to fight back against the evil human scum of this world and countless other victims were needlessly victimized as a result
* I do not personally believe in this "every man for himself" BS, no matter whether you're someone who believes in laying down and submitting to evil violent criminals or a true warrior who would never submit to such vile behavior, so I'll continue to fight for what I believe is righteous, no matter what situation I'm put in, for as long as I'm still counted amongst the living
* there's no such thing as a "good death" or a "bad death" and everyone eventually dies, so you can spend the rest of your life worrying over what could possibly happen or you can do the best you possibly can to ensure that the outcomes of bad situations are as good as you can reasonably make them and sometimes this will mean that you have to sacrifice yourself in some way to secure a better outcome for other people that you prioritize over yourself
* my wife, children, friends, and neighbors are worth more to me than the amount of time I get to spend here, for example, and I've had more time than many others have had, so it's not unreasonable that I sacrifice some of my time here to secure a better future for them
* life is best spent on your feet, loving those who love you, being unafraid of your enemies, and as productive as you can make it, so do not trouble yourself with what may come and focus on what you can do to prepare yourself for whatever does come, to the best of your ability
* firearms are not simply a trapping of a modern privileged life in a modern privileged country, it's literally a way of life, and you either commit to it completely or choose a different lifestyle
* being in good physical condition is mandatory for combat, and even if you're in a wheelchair you can still be in good physical condition
* physical conditioning training has the effect of improving general health and quality of life and aids you in everything you could possibly do in life
* I realize there are an entire spectrum of health ailments, but dogged determination to overcome whatever afflicts you is mandatory for leading a productive life and combat is no exception; we have soldiers in combat who are missing legs and even arms, but they're willing to do absolutely whatever it takes to fight and win and a determination to win is the only consistent factor in victory in combat
* using weapons in close combat is not like riding a bike, meaning you either continue to train and keep your skills sharp or they degrade over time to the point where you're more of a danger to yourself and others than you are to a criminal
* immediately after you purchase your firearm, the very next thing you should do is get training to use it
* get basic firearms safety training immediately at the gun store where you purchased your firearm before you even touch it for the first time
* there are a slew of reputable firearms training companies run by men and women who have been in combat across the globe who can teach you how to fight with your firearm and prevail over the violent criminals of this world
* combat experience has the effect of adding a healthy dose of reality to whatever the person providing the training happens to believe about what is "better" or "best" when it comes to fighting for your life, as it has the tendency to dispel any false beliefs about what works and what doesn't
* combat is defined as two or more people fighting each other and trying to kill each other, it doesn't matter if the person conducting the training is a special forces ninja sniper tactical operator or bubba from the local PD, if he or she has had someone try to kill them with a firearm, then that experience tends to completely erase or greatly diminish all the false beliefs they previously had about what it's like
* the students I've trained in hand-to-hand combat, which includes Police Officers and various military personnel, typically figure out what works and what doesn't relatively quickly when they're getting pounded into the ground, but before they've had that experience they have all sorts of ideas about what they can or can't do in a fight (like beliefs that they can or will always be stronger or faster or better than someone else they're fighting, for example) and still expect to win it; the point is that real combat is nothing like fights with rules, which are merely sporting event competitions, and when there are no rules that becomes very apparent, very fast
* the objective here is to learn to use whatever you decide to use as effectively as you reasonably can, so if the person you've gone to for training isn't doing that for you, then you need to seek training elsewhere

D. Weapon Light and Optics

* unless your eyes have night vision built in, then you need light to see in darkness because shooting at shadows is a precursor to a tragedy; if you can't clearly identify a threat, then you have no business shooting at it, so a quality weapon light or handheld flashlight is mandatory in low light or no light situations
* Tritium (sometimes called "glow in the dark") night sights
* Zero magnification optics (sometimes called holographic or red dot sights) because lining up two points ("dot" and target) is easier than lining up three (front sight, rear sight, target)
* these are also things that require substantial investment of money and practice to use effectively and buying cheap doesn't help you

E. Medical supplies and first aid training

* it's not terribly complicated stuff, but you need qualified medical personnel to teach it and explain it
* many of the larger firearms training schools also provide these training courses and use combat medics as instructors
* this may just be another tool in your tool bag, but it's definitely not something you should be without, as many people can go their entire lives without ever needing any combat skills, but virtually nobody has never been injured, even in modern life
* after you take some initial training classes, you'll begin to understand that there's a good chance that you'll get shot / stabbed / otherwise injured or someone else will get injured in combat and you need the training and tools to provide effective first aid
* I've only had to use a firearm once in my life outside of the military, so it's an exceptionally rare event, but I've had to use hand-to-hand and first aid skills multiple times
* if you don't have first aid supplies in your range bag and in your vehicle, then you're not dealing with reality

I think my trio PSA's on firearms education and training is enough, so I'll stop here. If anyone has specific questions, then I'll answer them or consult with someone who can and then provide that information.

If you read nothing else here, then know this. The US of A was founded by men with guns who understood the evils of permitting unscrupulous and unaccountable men with guns rule over those without guns. Our nation is unique in this world because of their willingness to fight and die for their deeply held convictions and for their love for their fellow Americans. They were very far from perfect, but they spent their lives and fortunes attempting to grant unto our nation the blessings of liberty and freedom from tyranny. There's nothing certain or predictable about true freedom, but I don't believe you'll find any slaves who honestly believe that their way of life is better than someone else who was granted those blessings by virtue of when and where they were born.

Do not willingly relinquish those blessings based upon false promises from anyone or any government regarding your safety and security. You'll get neither. All of human history has demonstrated this. Americans are not so perfect that we are completely above our baser instincts and behaviors. The government of today may be perfect angels, although there's ample evidence that they're not, but the government of tomorrow may be totally unrecognizable to us.

"Our Founding Fathers, here in this country, brought about the only true revolution that has ever taken place in man's history. Every other revolution simply exchanged one set of rulers for another set of rulers. But only here did that little band of men so advanced beyond their time that the world has never seen their like since, evolve the idea that you and I have within ourselves the God-given right and the ability to determine our own destiny. But freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. The only way they can inherit the freedom we have known is if we fight for it, protect it, defend it and then hand it to them with the well taught lessons of how they in their lifetime must do the same. And if you and I don't do this, then you and I may well spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free." - Ronald Reagan

kbd512 · 2018-04-16 13:27:16

Palomar7,

Violence doesn't simply occur where people are effectively disarmed. It occurs everywhere. There's no stopping it because it's part of human behavior. At the end of the day, we're all just animals and we will continue to have animal problems until we're no longer human. The only consistency that I've ever seen is that individual people who choose to commit random acts of violence seldom, if ever, go to places where they know the people there can effectively fight back. They seem to prefer unarmed victims who can't fight back.

If we're at all concerned about limiting the damage done by violent criminals, then we'll create a society in which both the general public and our government can effectively fight back against them. That starts with being armed and trained. There are no acceptable substitutes because the Police can't be exactly where you need them at the exact moment they're needed. All laws that purport to take potentially dangerous things away from people who have not broken any laws, in a misguided attempt to reduce violence, have had the inevitable effect of increasing the frequency and eventually the severity of the violence. That may not occur for a year or even ten years, but eventually it happens and it never gets any better until the source of the problem, which would be the criminals, are removed from society.

We've had mass shootings here in Texas, just like everywhere else in the country, but we also have people here who are willing to fight back. That mass murderer who went to that church and decided to start murdering people with his AR-15 was in turn shot by another man who had his own AR-15. Following being shot, that mass murderer fled the scene of his crime, never killed another person, and died of his wounds shortly thereafter. If the people in the congregation were armed, it's likely that he would've killed one or two people before being stopped.

If you want undeterred mass murder, then disarm yourself and wait for the Police to show up and stand around while the carnage continues. That's exactly what happened in Florida. If you want someone to stop the killing, then arm yourself, train yourself, and do for yourself what the Police may and probably will either be unable or unwilling to do at the very moment you need it done.

If you had to read one of the two headlines in the paper, which would you rather read?

"Soccer Mom Smoke Checks Murdering Nutjob at Son's School with Her Glock"

"Heavily Armed Police Stand Around and Watch School Children Mowed Down by Murdering Nutjob"

Ultimately, building an adult playpen society where our adult children can live free of every consequence of their own stupid behavior is a self-defeating and infantilizing activity unbecoming of the land of the free and the home of the brave. We may have plenty of violent criminals, but we also have a solution to the problems created by violent criminals. People who can think for themselves already know what that is and people who can't think for themselves will never understand, so it's a waste of time trying to explain it to them. Society is better off without violent criminals and criminally insane people roaming the streets in search of victims to prey upon. The Police can do what we pay them to do or the general citizenry can do it for them, but the job still needs to get done and excuses are not acceptable substitutes for constructive action.

I'm not a child, so I'm not asking Mommy and Daddy to come save me from anyone or anything. If someone else is willing and able to risk their life for me, then I think that's quite admirable and much appreciated. If not, then that necessarily means that I'm responsible. We don't need anyone's permission to defend our lives. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not in the habit of asking for it, either.

Palomar7 · 2018-04-16 17:31:36

Terraformer wrote:

The UK isn't that dangerous. It's mainly just the big cities, but then that's always been the case. Stay out of London, though.

I am sincerely relieved to know that. And do hope the folks in charge reinstate "stop and search" (correct term? I Googled). Apparently Theresa May nixed that (fear of being accused of racism).

I do wish every decent, law-abiding person in the UK well.

Palomar7 · 2018-04-16 17:37:22

kbd512 wrote:

The only consistency that I've ever seen is that individual people who choose to commit random acts of violence seldom, if ever, go to places where they know the people there can effectively fight back. They seem to prefer unarmed victims who can't fight back.
If we're at all concerned about limiting the damage done by violent criminals, then we'll create a society in which both the general public and our government can effectively fight back against them. That starts with being armed and trained. There are no acceptable substitutes because the Police can't be exactly where you need them at the exact moment they're needed.

Agreed.

It pains me to see people elsewhere turned into "sitting ducks" for violence...then accused of being racist or whatever if they fight back (with a screw driver or whatever's handy).

Never, ever want to see that *here.* My husband's disabled and I'm not getting younger. I do NOT want basic trips to the grocery store turning into frightening ordeals.

I want the option of being armed (currently I'm not).

Last edited by Palomar7 (2018-04-16 18:04:18)

kbd512 · 2018-04-16 20:02:54

Palomar7,

I'll never understand why any moral leftists or liberals or whatever they're choosing to call themselves now, assuming there were any such people to begin with, would want the potential victims of criminals to be defenseless in the face the current crop of hyper violent human predators. Those liberals claim to believe in science and technology, but when it comes to using technology to retain the most basic freedom, the right to be alive, they seem to support legislative policy decisions that are indefensible in the face or objective reality.

Disarming the potential victims has never, in all of human history, lead to better outcomes for the victims. People who have never broken any laws do not need their liberties taken from them to protect them from criminals that the government has no intention nor ability to protect them from. Objective reality says a woman half the size of a criminal who is more than twice as strong as she is won't win any fist fights with that man. The "science" of that last statement is more crystal clear than "climate change" has ever been or ever will be.

My wife should not have to run away from a man half her age and twice her size, nor should my children. Their mother should have the right to defend herself and her children, with lethal force, if absolutely necessary. If I'm around, then that burden is not her responsibility. If I can't be, and as someone who travels frequently for work there are times when I can't be, then I want her armed with the most effective tools she can possibly have. If criminals are afraid of what she will do if they try to attack her or her children, then I think that's fantastic.

I once asked the man who trained me, the undefeated kickboxing champion in the state of Texas for ten years (this was many years ago), why it was that he carried a pistol with him, given how fast, strong, and experienced he was at fighting. His reply was simple, but seemed quite reasonable at the time. "There's always someone bigger, faster, and stronger than you are, but I've never seen anyone outrun a bullet." That made good common sense to me when I was 16 and it still makes sense to me at 37. A fight for your life is not about fairness and it's not about proving you're a man or woman or the best fighter on the planet. It's about surviving and living to fight another day.

Terraformer · 2018-04-17 05:18:43

As the proverb goes, "God created men and Sam Colt made them equal."

Palomar7 · 2018-04-17 12:32:58

kbd512 wrote:

Palomar7,
I'll never understand why any moral leftists or liberals or whatever they're choosing to call themselves now, assuming there were any such people to begin with, would want the potential victims of criminals to be defenseless in the face the current crop of hyper violent human predators. Those liberals claim to believe in science and technology, but when it comes to using technology to retain the most basic freedom, the right to be alive, they seem to support legislative policy decisions that are indefensible in the face or objective reality.
Disarming the potential victims has never, in all of human history, lead to better outcomes for the victims. People who have never broken any laws do not need their liberties taken from them to protect them from criminals that the government has no intention nor ability to protect them from. Objective reality says a woman half the size of a criminal who is more than twice as strong as she is won't win any fist fights with that man. The "science" of that last statement is more crystal clear than "climate change" has ever been or ever will be.
My wife should not have to run away from a man half her age and twice her size, nor should my children. Their mother should have the right to defend herself and her children, with lethal force, if absolutely necessary. If I'm around, then that burden is not her responsibility. If I can't be, and as someone who travels frequently for work there are times when I can't be, then I want her armed with the most effective tools she can possibly have. If criminals are afraid of what she will do if they try to attack her or her children, then I think that's fantastic.
I once asked the man who trained me, the undefeated kickboxing champion in the state of Texas for ten years (this was many years ago), why it was that he carried a pistol with him, given how fast, strong, and experienced he was at fighting. His reply was simple, but seemed quite reasonable at the time. "There's always someone bigger, faster, and stronger than you are, but I've never seen anyone outrun a bullet." That made good common sense to me when I was 16 and it still makes sense to me at 37. A fight for your life is not about fairness and it's not about proving you're a man or woman or the best fighter on the planet. It's about surviving and living to fight another day.

I completely agree.

And now I'm seeing a comment by the French PM, Msr. Macron, that Europe's fate will be entwined with Africa's.

Now I understand being charitable. Welcoming in x-number of immigrants (provided most of the citizenry aren't adversely effected). Etc. And that immigrants be willing to assimilate, work, contribute positively.

--also that it was SYRIAN refugees given the original invite by Angela Merkel--

Msr. Macron's comment despite rape epidemic in Sweden (and elsewhere). Knife and acid attacks in London. Old people in Germany taking self-defense courses (how fast can an 80-year-old move?).

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is prompting "come one, come all." The Native Americans instinctively knew that was a bad idea. They didn't go for it.

So is Msr. Macron (and Company's) "come one, come all" ideal predicated on:

1. "1492 Guilt"?
2. Greed/Sellout (they're in the pocket of Globalist elite)?
3. Stubborn misguided idealism?
4. Fad (other Western nations are doing it!)?
5. The End Times (religious)?

I'm curious as to what folks here think is the impetus.

Last edited by Palomar7 (2018-04-17 12:41:01)

Terraformer · 2018-04-17 14:03:03

Here are a few ideas.

In the short run, they're hoping for an economic boost. In the long run, they'll be dead, so they don't care much about the long run.

A lot of them still feel guilty about europeans going to Africa and civilising it stealing their stuff colonising it, and think we can make it up to them by letting them come here and take our stuff. Such is the collectivist mindset.

A stubborn belief in multiculturalism, and that human beings are fungible - a Turk can step onto German soil, and he instantly becomes as much a German as those whose ancestors actually built the place.

They are firm believers in the cult of progress. The idea that civilisation is fragile, and that what Europe has is a historical aberration that should be carefully preserved, is anathema to them.

They see other places as cesspools, and wish to save their inhabitants from such a fate. The question of why they are cesspools is not asked.

GDP is their No. 1 priority. Anything that increases it is by definition good.

They have a disdain for the common folk, and wish to dissolve their people and elect another.

They are uncultured swine who actually believe, as a result, that white people have no culture, and so wish to import one from abroad.

SpaceNut · 2018-04-17 21:25:28

Citizenship is a strange animal Terraformer and it the none melting of the new kid on the block that does not even try to assimulate into that surrounds them in there new homeland. These are not citizens of there new homeland.

The Rat experiment could have been stopped but was allow to continue as the cities and politicians and any form of governement that did not spread the populous out giving them room to breath to take pride in ownership but instead we created slumlords and poverty....Sure it costs more to drive to work and to other places but its benefits out weigh being shot, mugged, brutalized ect...

News of white officers taking action that is unwarrented and not necessary is also an issue that must be corrected. Starbucks will temporarily close 8,000 U.S. stores for racial-bias training: The announcement comes after the arrests of two black men in a Philadelphia store.

"While this is not limited to Starbucks, we're committed to being a part of the solution."
"Closing our stores for racial bias training is just one step in a journey that requires dedication from every level of our company and partnerships in our local communities,"

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